Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker

[jgsugden]

No.  Neither do I stick my hand in a meat grinder for no reason.  I, generally speaking, try to avoid doing painful things.

[Brolan]

Good lord, that ship has sailed, been torpedoed by a U-boat, and sunk.

[IainC]

[Hoax]

lulz fuck these clowns

[eldaec]

Frodo casting some shade.

This sort of thing keeps making it worse.

Every attempt to explain things leads to another 'why' and brings real star wars closer and closer to emo sith lore EU star wars, making everything worse in the process. They keep going down this path and sooner or later Darth Bane is a thing you can't pretend doesn't exist in star wars.

The right way to deal with this is just say 'nobody fucking knows, maybe the new new Republic is looking into it, but the fleet happened because palatine is a badass that is why'.

[Samwise]

At this rate I might not even watch this thing when it's free to stream.   

[MediumHigh]

If only people called out JJ Abrams for doing to the wrath of khan what he did to star wars.

[Cyrrex]

Both this and the last one in particular are the only SW movies where I have never really felt compelled to rewatch.  I mean, I imagine I will at some point, but there really is zero depth to any of it.  I don’t even think I felt that way about the prequels, surprisingly.

[Teleku]

Ah, yeah, last weekend I finally watched this (via pirate download copy).

What the actual fuck.  Holy shit what a weird cluster fuck of a movie.  How the studio which has the creative people behind Marvel and Pixar could fuck up a trilogy of movies this badly, for billions of dollars of investment, is mind blowing.

[Khaldun]

The thing is, the MCU stuff could have clusterfucked the same way. Basically they got lucky that they had something good out of the gate (Iron Man) that was good partly because all the major properties had seemingly been sold off, and then they got a guy (Feige) who steered the properties in the right direction and managed the corporate infighting so that the dumb rich asshole in the room was steered off to somewhere where he couldn't do any harm. (Basically, the Inhumans TV series was the equivalent of letting the idiot prince go make a fool of himself so that you could lock him in the tower afterwards "for his own good".) What's interesting is that Disney didn't learn a generalized lesson from that, which shows you how bad corporate structures are for managing valuable assets.

[Samwise]

If only people called out JJ Abrams for doing to the wrath of khan what he did to star wars.

I did my best!  

fuck that movie still makes me actually angry to think about

[Teleku]

The thing is, the MCU stuff could have clusterfucked the same way. Basically they got lucky that they had something good out of the gate (Iron Man) that was good partly because all the major properties had seemingly been sold off, and then they got a guy (Feige) who steered the properties in the right direction and managed the corporate infighting so that the dumb rich asshole in the room was steered off to somewhere where he couldn't do any harm. (Basically, the Inhumans TV series was the equivalent of letting the idiot prince go make a fool of himself so that you could lock him in the tower afterwards "for his own good".) What's interesting is that Disney didn't learn a generalized lesson from that, which shows you how bad corporate structures are for managing valuable assets.

Well yes, that's exactly what I mean.  When they grabbed Star Wars, they already had the talent/structure in place from Marvel, which had already figured out the secret formula for churning out entertaining action super hero films (And lets face it, Jedi are just super heroes at this point).  They also had all the creative minds at Pixar which have figured out the formula of churning out movies that appeal to both adults and children. 

This doesn't mean those crews would have for sure made a good trilogy.....but holy fuck.  This entire thing was a disjointed disaster with an amazing lack of planning or vision for something that a private entity dropped many billions of dollars into.  The fucking Thor trilogy was better overall than this one!

[Sir T]

Hell, Thor 2 was an enjoyable popcorn destruction device that left your brain without a horrid aftertaste. IE it was dumb but enjoyable, not rage inducing and people forgot it immediately.

[TheWalrus]

You guys just need to wait for the Abrams Cut. You'll see!

[Draegan]

Disney didn't own Marvel when Iron Man was released in 2008, they bought Marvel in 2009.

[Goumindong]

You guys just need to wait for the Abrams Cut. You'll see!

The exposition dump about how “Reys father was a failed palpatine clone and so dont worry palpatine doesnt fuck but also dont ask questions about how that makes Rey his granddaughter or about whether or not palpatines failed clones fuck or why palpatines failed clones looked so much like normal people” is going to really tie the movie together

[Teleku]

Disney didn't own Marvel when Iron Man was released in 2008, they bought Marvel in 2009.

Disney purchased Lucas films and then started working on this whole fiasco in late 2012......

[Velorath]

The thing is, the MCU stuff could have clusterfucked the same way. Basically they got lucky that they had something good out of the gate (Iron Man) that was good partly because all the major properties had seemingly been sold off, and then they got a guy (Feige) who steered the properties in the right direction and managed the corporate infighting so that the dumb rich asshole in the room was steered off to somewhere where he couldn't do any harm. (Basically, the Inhumans TV series was the equivalent of letting the idiot prince go make a fool of himself so that you could lock him in the tower afterwards "for his own good".) What's interesting is that Disney didn't learn a generalized lesson from that, which shows you how bad corporate structures are for managing valuable assets.

Well yes, that's exactly what I mean.  When they grabbed Star Wars, they already had the talent/structure in place from Marvel, which had already figured out the secret formula for churning out entertaining action super hero films (And lets face it, Jedi are just super heroes at this point).  They also had all the creative minds at Pixar which have figured out the formula of churning out movies that appeal to both adults and children. 

This doesn't mean those crews would have for sure made a good trilogy.....but holy fuck.  This entire thing was a disjointed disaster with an amazing lack of planning or vision for something that a private entity dropped many billions of dollars into.  The fucking Thor trilogy was better overall than this one!

Part of that formula for Marvel though is that while the Marvel Universe is one franchise it's actually made up dozens or hundreds of franchises depending on how you break it down. This helps them make movies that are similar in structure but still allow them to differentiate them from each other. Each franchise can interlink with the others, while still also being able to tell their own stories.

Star Wars is one franchise with probably around 97% of the stories told tying in somehow to the original trilogy. Even the stuff that doesn't tie in directly like KotoR still relies on Jedi vs. Sith rather than any sort of original conflict. Before coming up with a formula for how to churn out SW movies they need to figure out what, if anything, makes this an interesting setting to tell stories in. The best they've done so far is The Mandalorian and (while I'm not a fan of it) Rogue One. I don't know if it's coincidence that in both those cases they borrowed heavily from Kurosawa (or Samurai films in general) much like Lucas did with ANH, but it's something to look at.

[Draegan]

Now you've got a whole story line they're building up that is 200 years before the current story call the High Republic. They released a trailer thing for it. Seems like it'll be interesting. It's not Jedi vs. Sith or anything like Empire. Looks like the bads are some kind of reavers.

Probably will be crap. Most of everything they are talking about are just comics and books though. So if it fails, it'll never get to TV or Movie production.

[Velorath]

Most of the writers they got for the High Republic stuff seem like they generally do YA books (and Charles Soule I know mostly as a comic book writer). Nothing wrong with that as a direction I guess. It's the age group most SW stuff has been actually been written for despite it's most vocal fans/critics being very much not in that age range.

[Draegan]

The only thing I don't like about the subject is that it's not far enough away from the OT. It's just close enough to put Yoda in it some where. Story line should have been 2000 years before or after the movies. Clean slate. Make up something different.

[Cyrrex]

I don't know any of those authors, but past experience with the books in the SW universe....the YA books are distinctly different in tone and maturity than the regular books, and generally not in a good way.  Which is just another way of saying I have a bad feeling about this.

[Sir T]

... so there's gonna be hot sparkly jedi, right?

[Cyrrex]

Or maybe just one that also happens to look like just the cutest little kitten.

[Raguel]

So I finally watched this today. I liked it, even though I had several problems with the movie, particularly the last 3rd.

I wouldn't say it was good, nor do I really want to re watch it.

Even though the new cast got a bit more to do this movie (Rey and Poe bickering was IMO the best part of the movie) I still think (outside of maybe Ben) they were still outshone by the OG characters. Truly maddening.

[Riggswolfe]

So I finally watched this today. I liked it, even though I had several problems with the movie, particularly the last 3rd.

I wouldn't say it was good, nor do I really want to re watch it.

Even though the new cast got a bit more to do this movie (Rey and Poe bickering was IMO the best part of the movie) I still think (outside of maybe Ben) they were still outshone by the OG characters. Truly maddening.

JJ Abrams gets a lot of shit for this movie but in my opinion 90% of the problems with this movie boil down to "Rian Johnson fucked up the 2nd movie and made zero progress towards a cohesive trilogy so we had to do all the shit he should have done in the first half of this one."

What's weird is I watched Knives Out recently and remembered why I really like Rian Johnson.  Though, the thing he did with Knives Out may actually be a symptom of why the Last Jedi is so awful. In Knives Out he twists genre conventions to subvert expectations and it works brilliantly. He tried the same thing in Last Jedi and it was awful.

If JJ had written and directed all 3 movies or if Kathleen Kennedy had said "Here is the trilogy outline, stick to this please" I think both the last two movies would have been massively improved because at least they'd be consistent.

[jgsugden]

Agreed.  A lot of folks have been saying that since Last Jedi came out - it ruined the trilogy by negating what came before it. 

I've reached the point where I'd rather see them walk away from this time period and do other films - and then come back and do the original trilogy of trilogies in a 9 season TV series called Star Wars: Skywalker Legacy.  9 seasons to tell the story of Anakin being born, raised, rising as a flawed hero, falling to become Vader, his children rising to oppose him and his Emperor, Vader making a reforming sacrifice, his legacy presenting a challenge for the rest of the universe and his children dying to end that dark legacy.   I want to see this story executed well - not see it fall apart and break.

[Raguel]

So I finally watched this today. I liked it, even though I had several problems with the movie, particularly the last 3rd.

I wouldn't say it was good, nor do I really want to re watch it.

Even though the new cast got a bit more to do this movie (Rey and Poe bickering was IMO the best part of the movie) I still think (outside of maybe Ben) they were still outshone by the OG characters. Truly maddening.

JJ Abrams gets a lot of shit for this movie but in my opinion 90% of the problems with this movie boil down to "Rian Johnson fucked up the 2nd movie and made zero progress towards a cohesive trilogy so we had to do all the shit he should have done in the first half of this one."

yeah I just don't buy that argument at all. I'm not going to rehash the arguments made in this thread but suffice to say I'm more of a mix of Khaldun and Abagadro than you and Haemish.

[HaemishM]

Both Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker would have been better movies if the movie that preceded them had been a foundation their writers/directors wanted to build on, as opposed to something their writers/directors wanted to apologize for.

[Khaldun]

I think that's the thing everybody agrees on, yeah? Starting this thing without any plan for a three-film story arc was fucking nuts. I think it's really clear that nobody involved did that kind of thinking.

[jgsugden]

I think that's the thing everybody agrees on, yeah? Starting this thing without any plan for a three-film story arc was fucking nuts. I think it's really clear that nobody involved did that kind of thinking.

JJ Abrahms did have a plan.  He handed it off.  Johnson decided not to go with it - with the studio blessing. 

I'm not saying it was a good plan, but he knew what was supposed to happen when Rey found Luke.

[Cyrrex]

Fucked up all the way around, honestly. 

It might fail spectacularly, but I wouldn’t mind seeing them try an OT reboot.  Disney reboots literally everything else, so why not?

[HaemishM]

It's kind of amazing that in a studio like Disney, with all the stories of studio interference and heavy-handed edicts coming down from executive producers, that something like Star Wars didn't have a story bible that was religiously followed for the new trilogy. It's even crazier when you consider how much that sort of thing has been used to good effect by the Marvel arm of Disney - Feige put 20+ movies out all adhering to a style with specific parts of the greater idea, none of which made either previous works invalid or post works have to dance around inconsistencies (or at least not anything nearly as glaring as in these flicks). As much as I'm not one of the anti-Kathleen Kennedy people, her seeming indifference to a cohesive storyline in this trilogy is striking.

[BobtheSomething]

I think that's the thing everybody agrees on, yeah? Starting this thing without any plan for a three-film story arc was fucking nuts. I think it's really clear that nobody involved did that kind of thinking.

JJ Abrahms did have a plan.  He handed it off.  Johnson decided not to go with it - with the studio blessing. 

I'm not saying it was a good plan, but he knew what was supposed to happen when Rey found Luke.

Do you have proof of this?  Having a plan is JJ Abrams’ kryptonite.  The dude is most famous for not having a clue about what he’s setting up and having no interest in how it resolves.

[jgsugden]

He stated that he had a plan and that Johnson was discarding it before Jedi came out.  He has spoken about how he adjusted to a new plan because his original plan would not work with the chnges Johnson made.

They had a plan and a Bible.  Then Force Awakens came out and there was a lack of confidence/issues that resulted in JJ leaving. They thought a new direction would be better, but before LJ even made it to the screen they knew it was a mistake and went back to JJ to try to salvage what they could.  I'm betting that if they could go back in time, they'd never have JJ or Johnson involved in this trilogy.