Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker

[eldaec]

Don't be daft.

JJ may well have believed he had a plan. But there is no evidence that he is capable of a good plan. The Force Awakens alone, as a standalone movie, is just terrible from a world building perspective. It is a fun movie, but makes not a jot of sense.

As you say, neither Abrams nor Johnson were really suitable for 'showrunning' this era of Star Wars.

Both are more than capable of a standalone movie, or even a film overseen by someone running the series.

We've said it loads, but obviously star wars beyond RotJ needs someone building the overall world, it needs it more than the MCU does. The MCU only really needs to enforce tone and template, and vaguely make sure people are in the rough state that the next Avengers movie needs them to be. But for star wars, the world building is a critical part of the IP.

If Disney can't be bothered to hire someone to do that - they should stick to the anthology movies.

[Riggswolfe]

I think that's the thing everybody agrees on, yeah? Starting this thing without any plan for a three-film story arc was fucking nuts. I think it's really clear that nobody involved did that kind of thinking.

JJ Abrahms did have a plan.  He handed it off.  Johnson decided not to go with it - with the studio blessing. 

I'm not saying it was a good plan, but he knew what was supposed to happen when Rey found Luke.

Do you have proof of this?  Having a plan is JJ Abrams’ kryptonite.  The dude is most famous for not having a clue about what he’s setting up and having no interest in how it resolves.

He had essentially rough notes is what I've heard. Who is Rey? What is Finn's arc? Stuff like that. You can see how he tried to shove it all in Rise of Skywalker.

One of the "saddest" parts of the movie for me is when Poe lands the Falcon and he and Rey argue. You can tell they're trying to set up banter between them and it sort of works but you have to just sort of go "I guess they grew as friends between LJ and RoS." Because Last Jedi did zero to build the character relationships at all.

I think Last Jedi could have been truly interesting as the start of its own trilogy, preferably unconnected to existing characters. Some of its ideas were intriguing but the writing was terrible in some parts and it derailed the trilogy.

[jgsugden]

Don't be daft.

JJ may well have believed he had a plan. But there is no evidence that he is capable of a good plan. The Force Awakens alone, as a standalone movie, is just terrible from a world building perspective. It is a fun movie, but makes not a jot of sense.

As you say, neither Abrams nor Johnson were really suitable for 'showrunning' this era of Star Wars.

Both are more than capable of a standalone movie, or even a film overseen by someone running the series.

We've said it loads, but obviously star wars beyond RotJ needs someone building the overall world, it needs it more than the MCU does. The MCU only really needs to enforce tone and template, and vaguely make sure people are in the rough state that the next Avengers movie needs them to be. But for star wars, the world building is a critical part of the IP.

If Disney can't be bothered to hire someone to do that - they should stick to the anthology movies.

So you call me daft and then agree with everything I said?

[Abagadro]

We really doing this again just because one additional person saw it?

[Samwise]

We really doing this again just because one additional person saw it?

Don't worry, we'll have another go-round once it finally hits the Mandalorian channel.   

[Hawkbit]

Two of us. I just watched it for the first time too.

I'm glad I saw it equally as much as I'm hoping I don't ever have to see these characters again. I don't understand the need to turn everything up to 11.

[Riggswolfe]

We really doing this again just because one additional person saw it?

We're all locked in our houses. What else are we going to do? Also, in my case, my daughter asked me to watch it with her this week and I watched Knives Out this week.

[Samwise]

I'm serious, I'm not seeing this thing until sometime after it hits Disney+.  I regret seeing the previous five in the theaters; this will finally be the one that I skipped until it was effectively free.

[eldaec]

To be fair to us, only 19 pages on a star wars film is f13 just shrugging.

[Teleku]

Only Star Wars movie I didn't see in theaters either.  Downloaded a theater cam version with Chinese subtitles, and was appropriate.

[Hoax]

I didn't see the third prequel, this, or Solo in theaters. I wish I'd seen Solo in theaters I'm sure I would have liked it more and honestly I think there was stuff there for them to make another movie or two out of that I could have also enjoyed.

[IainC]

I didn't see the third prequel, this, or Solo in theaters. I wish I'd seen Solo in theaters I'm sure I would have liked it more and honestly I think there was stuff there for them to make another movie or two out of that I could have also enjoyed.

If Solo had been a random sci-fi heist movie set in a throwaway universe that didn't have an existing fandom, it would have been fine. It was a mostly ok movie that got let down by being 30 minutes too long and by the IP owners trying to cram in as much fan-service as possible into every second of screen time.

[jgsugden]

I'd love to see someone do a Solo sequel - if they respected the Star Wars as much as Filloni and Favreau.  If those two decided to make a sequel to the Solo we've seen, I'd actually be excited to see it.

[Khaldun]

JJ Abrams said he had a plan for not having the villain in the second Star Trek movie be Khan. He said there was a great plan for the secret behind what was happening on Lost. Dude lies about this stuff all the time. Plus even if he did--and Kennedy and others knew it--it's not much of a plan if you hire a guy who says "I have a different idea" and you let him do it. Be like hiring the Russo Brothers to do Infinity War and having them say, "eh, we're going to forget about the gems and Thanos and introduce Kang the Conqueror and have him actually have been Hawkeye in disguise" and have Feige go, "sure sure, that's fine".

[Riggswolfe]

JJ Abrams said he had a plan for not having the villain in the second Star Trek movie be Khan. He said there was a great plan for the secret behind what was happening on Lost. Dude lies about this stuff all the time. Plus even if he did--and Kennedy and others knew it--it's not much of a plan if you hire a guy who says "I have a different idea" and you let him do it. Be like hiring the Russo Brothers to do Infinity War and having them say, "eh, we're going to forget about the gems and Thanos and introduce Kang the Conqueror and have him actually have been Hawkeye in disguise" and have Feige go, "sure sure, that's fine".

That's the point. Supposedly JJ had at least a general outline of the sequel trilogy with a few of the big questions answered. Even assuming he's not the type to always know these answers, he had a co writer, let's not forget. He passed these notes on to Rian Johnson and Collin Trevorrow. And Rian Johnson went "That's cute, I'm going to do something completely different." At that point Kathleen Kennedy probably should have said "the middle of a trilogy is not the place to deconstruct Star Wars, save it for your own trilogy." But she didn't.

[jgsugden]

JJ's plan may have been written on a napkin and vague, but he was clearly setting things up.  Those were discarded in favor of a new plan - and that is what did the most damage to this trilogy as a trilogy.  Hate all you want, but that is the biggest problem with the whole of this trilogy.

[Rasix]

I finally saw this. It was somewhat entertaining, but also completely pants-on-head retarded. That fucking dagger. WHY. How did those stupid ships get staffed sitting underground?

The more you think about this movie, the more it just plain sucks. Nothing stands up to any sort of even mild scrutiny. I never want to see this again. It can go sit next to The Last Jedi and Attack of the Clones.

[jgsugden]

I finally saw this. It was somewhat entertaining, but also completely pants-on-head retarded. That fucking dagger. WHY. How did those stupid ships get staffed sitting underground?

The more you think about this movie, the more it just plain sucks. Nothing stands up to any sort of even mild scrutiny. I never want to see this again. It can go sit next to The Last Jedi and Attack of the Clones.

Welcome to conversation from mid-2019. 

[Rasix]

Movie came out in December. Good try though. 

I kept myself spoiler free and didn't read this thread until now. I didn't want to "Snape kills Dumbledore" myself heading in.

[HaemishM]

The good news is that even if you'd had spoilers, you wouldn't have believed them because you'd think to yourself "that's the dumbest shit I've ever read."

Nothing matters. Eat Arby's.

[BobtheSomething]

JJ's plan may have been written on a napkin and vague, but he was clearly setting things up.  Those were discarded in favor of a new plan - and that is what did the most damage to this trilogy as a trilogy.  Hate all you want, but that is the biggest problem with the whole of this trilogy.

He was not setting things up.  He was creating mystery boxes to manipulate the audience’s interest.  There’s a difference. 

JJ did not set things up in Lost: he threw out shit to see what got attention and he had no idea where to go with it.

[eldaec]

JJ Abrams said he had a plan for not having the villain in the second Star Trek movie be Khan. He said there was a great plan for the secret behind what was happening on Lost. Dude lies about this stuff all the time. Plus even if he did--and Kennedy and others knew it--it's not much of a plan if you hire a guy who says "I have a different idea" and you let him do it. Be like hiring the Russo Brothers to do Infinity War and having them say, "eh, we're going to forget about the gems and Thanos and introduce Kang the Conqueror and have him actually have been Hawkeye in disguise" and have Feige go, "sure sure, that's fine".

That's the point. Supposedly JJ had at least a general outline of the sequel trilogy with a few of the big questions answered. Even assuming he's not the type to always know these answers, he had a co writer, let's not forget. He passed these notes on to Rian Johnson and Collin Trevorrow. And Rian Johnson went "That's cute, I'm going to do something completely different." At that point Kathleen Kennedy probably should have said "the middle of a trilogy is not the place to deconstruct Star Wars, save it for your own trilogy." But she didn't.

Hang on, surely the middle act is exactly the place to deconstruct it.

Also if Johnson ignored JJ Abrams plan to make Rey Snoke's grandchild or whatever then he wasn't the problem. The problem was Abrams having a shit plan.

And based on the alternate script floating about there obviously was no plan because neither actual RotS nor draft Duel of the Fates make any damn sense, and nor do they have any similarities.

[Khaldun]

Empire Strikes Back is beloved as a sequel precisely because it fucking scrambled shit up in ways that nobody expected. (And Lucas did NOT have a plan for it.)

[Velorath]

Can't really say I've ever heard anyone suggest that "subverts expectations" was the reason they love Empire Strikes Back.

[jgsugden]

...
He was not setting things up.  He was creating mystery boxes to manipulate the audience’s interest.  There’s a difference. 

JJ did not set things up in Lost: he threw out shit to see what got attention and he had no idea where to go with it.

And that was how long ago?  Fuck, Dude.  The guy said he had a plan.  If you want to assume that Disney was cool with there being no plan, with the actors being cool that there was no plan, and everyone lying to say there was a plan just because... well, ok.  Live in that world.

And Lucas also had a plan, but refused to stick to any plan he made.  He has fucking revealed the entire original plan - every single note of it.

[Samwise]

The guy said he had a plan.  If you want to assume that Disney was cool with there being no plan

They hired JJ Abrams.  Given his resume, I think it's very safe to assume they were cool with there being no plan.

[Typhon]

I these threads more than I can say.  As far as I'm concerned, you are all heroes, all MVPs.

 

[jgsugden]

The guy said he had a plan.  If you want to assume that Disney was cool with there being no plan

They hired JJ Abrams.  Given his resume, I think it's very safe to assume they were cool with there being no plan.

Yeah, people get to gamble a billion dolars with no plan all the time.

[MediumHigh]

Watching people talk about this is like watching DC "Universe" fans make up excuses for why no one liked Justice League. Oh you see "Zack Synder JJ Abrams Had a plan. It was a good plan for all these movies, than Warner Bros Disney caved into all the non-fans and gave the project to someone else who fuuuucked it up and we really would have been better off with the original vision"

That is of course assuming that the Force Awakens, Like Batman v Superman and Man of Steel weren't giant fucking red flags to begin with. That is assuming that even if there was a plan their blatant disinterest in the core tenants of the franchise means more money, more control, and withs more time these "visionaries" will eventually polish a turd into gold. I'm here to tell you it won't. Just like in Justice league there is some ideas too stupid to realize even if you give it a billion dollars.

[Riggswolfe]

Empire Strikes Back is beloved as a sequel precisely because it fucking scrambled shit up in ways that nobody expected. (And Lucas did NOT have a plan for it.)

The Empire Strikes Back is beloved as a sequel because it is well written and well filmed with the best plot twist of the entire series. It's the apex of all of the movies and the one all the others try to live up to much like Wrath of Khan is for Star Trek. The Empire Strikes Back did not try to deconstruct the first movie. It did not try to subvert expectations in a hamfisted way. The Empire Strikes Back is what a middle movie should be. It is basically act 2 of the larger 3 act structure that is the original trilogy. It's where things get dark and hopeless for the heroes.

[Velorath]

Can't wait till the next time someone watches this movie so we can have this conversation again.

[Cyrrex]

Maybe I will re-watch it over the next couple of days, and then we can have a conversation about the spaceregular goats assaulting the star destroyer.  Only this time, the question will be why did anyone think a good use of cargo space on an atmospheric assault mission should be to house a bunch of spaceregular goats.  Just what situation where they preparing for?  OR FOR WHAT ELSE DO THEY USE THEM.

[BobtheSomething]

“....And when the men get lonely, is this how they do it, private?”

“Er no.  I meant when the men get lonely they use the space goats...to ride into town to visit the brothel.”

[Cyrrex]

Right, but we also know it wasn't exactly a long flight from whichever fucking planet they came from (seriously, it is bad that I don't even know the answer to that, what a bunch of shit worldbuilding) to their arrival to Exo-planet-thing.  I mean, who knew the heretoforth uncharted regions were so accessible, takes like 8 minutes to get there.  Anyway, what I am suggesting is that they should have had men, or bombs, or literally anything with them besides livestock, regardless of how sexy that livestock was.

[Abagadro]

ESB is loved because it is a great fucking movie, took good characters that were established in the prior pulpy-but-good-movie and developed them to a much deeper level and  centering them in larger narratives, had pathos, good jokes, kick-ass action sequences with lots of pew-pew and whoosh sci-fi goodness, deepened the universe,  introduced new and interesting characters, had a legit good romantic subplot between attractive co-leads, hinted at even larger narrative threads, looked fucking awesome, had the best laser sword fight in movies ever, dropped a movie-history defining spoiler plot bomb, and had a downer ending that wanted you to come back for more.

If anyone wants to compare that movie to anything that came before or since and tie it some some bullshit "subverting expectations" narrative to apply to the later trilogy they can come fight me.