Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[grebo]

Are we saying Toy Story 3 was bad now? cause i will fight you.

I thought so.  It also made twice as much as the first one.  Was it twice as good?  I hope not.

Honest Question. Did you watch TLJ?

Cause I am failing to see how any of it, besides the horses, was made for kids.

Uh, ... what?  I can't even understand how you could think it wasn't.  I mean lol.  But whatever, this is page 20, everything's been said already.

Yes I sat through the whole thing and didn't walk out. I held up 2 middle fingers when Abrams name came up at the end.  I've never done that before.  I wanted to slam his face into a loaded toilet for 2 hours so he could have the same experience I just had. 

I don't understand how any grown human can be a Star Wars fan, watch that movie, and not feel like the retarded kid on the playground being knocked down by all the other kids.

[jgsugden]

I don't blame Abrams at all for TLJ - his ideas were discarded and Rian pissed all over them.  He'd have made a flawed film, but this film was not filled with his flaws. 

[Khaldun]

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our Star Wars,
But in ourselves, that we are bitter fanlings

[eldaec]

Hmmm, this thread went downhill fast.

[HaemishM]

So did this movie. 

[jgsugden]

Hmmm, this thread went downhill fast.

I'm trying to decide whether you think 21 pages is fast, or if you just failed to note until now that this thread went downhill from the start... 

[grebo]

I don't blame Abrams at all for TLJ - his ideas were discarded and Rian pissed all over them.  He'd have made a flawed film, but this film was not filled with his flaws. 

I want to believe this.  Any concise articles out there?  Everything I'm finding isn't helpful.  Apologies if this was covered already.

[Khaldun]

Hire a private investigator! No crime must go unpunished!

[TheWalrus]

Well, there's the problem. He watched it in subtitles and can't read.

[jgsugden]

...
I want to believe this.  Any concise articles out there?  Everything I'm finding isn't helpful.  Apologies if this was covered already.

3 seconds with Google.  3 seconds. 
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley

[Draegan]

My hot take as a fanboy who still builds his own lightsabers but was disappointed in the prequels and saw some missed opportunities in TFA:

TLJ was spectacular.

This is my opinion except I now have lightsaber duels with my 3 years old son in a full kylo Ren costume, mask and all.

My son after seeing half of tlj is still asking me when is kylo going to fix his mask.

[Threash]

The honest trailers guy seems to have noticed the over the top hatred for this movie among some people.

[grebo]

...
I want to believe this.  Any concise articles out there?  Everything I'm finding isn't helpful.  Apologies if this was covered already.

3 seconds with Google.  3 seconds. 
https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/925958/Star-Wars-8-Rian-Johnson-JJ-Abrams-Last-Jedi-outline-plot-script-Daisy-Ridley

There are oceans of dreck written about TLJ.  Thanks for taking the 3 seconds.

Star Wars is more than just a random movie to some people.  It started, and continues to be a major part of a subcultural identity.  Proof that you're not alone, blah blah.  If the pope publicly apologized to Sam Harris for centuries of wrongheadedness, then parceled up the Vatican and donated it to various LGBT groups, you'd see a similar reaction in a different cultural subgroup.

[Khaldun]

Oh for pity's sake. Let's get this much straight: being a Star Wars fan who thinks of it as a major part of a subcultural identity and thinks that everyone who feels that way must have the same feeling about the movie is as dumb as a Baptist thinking that every other kind of Christian is a heretic. I saw Star Wars as a young teenager in 1977 about 25 times in a movie theater, and it was precisely that kind of proof of non-aloneness, that sense of awe and excitement about seeing things I thought were strictly for me and a few other geeks up on screen and validated.

And I love The Last Jedi. So cut it the fuck out: don't like it, like it, but don't try to tell me that the only True Fans [tm] are those who have a particular opinion of the movie.

[MediumHigh]

Star Wars isn't an identity for me. I just like non lazy stories or at least ones that give me want I want out of said genre. What I can't stand is people using nostalgia and brand to coast on the low expectations of their audience. When people decide that "anything" is good enough you get repackaged garbage. We've seen this thought process infect triple A gaming, and the DC movies are basically run on executive desire to see money with zero effort required. I never want to signal to studio execs that "the bar is this low" because they'll shovel shit until people start tasting the brown bites past the nostalgia frosting.

Star Wars nerds have a right to be angry. They may not be all of them, or even most of them, but I hope its enough of them to tell Disney that if they want this fucking franchise to print money they need to stop acting like Warner Bros.

[Khaldun]

I haven't noticed a fall off in the printing of money hats from Star Wars. But do carry on as if a few angry fans actually matter at the box office. That's the favorite threat of the fan who believes they're not being serviced exquisitely enough, and it almost never has anything to do with how anything performs in the actual marketplace.

[Ginaz]

I haven't noticed a fall off in the printing of money hats from Star Wars. But do carry on as if a few angry fans actually matter at the box office. That's the favorite threat of the fan who believes they're not being serviced exquisitely enough, and it almost never has anything to do with how anything performs in the actual marketplace.

I haven't really liked any of the films since the original trilogy but I'll still go and see whatever they put out next.  I realize I'm not the target audience anymore and that's OK.  There's no point in bitching endlessly about something as trivial as Star Wars.  If I don't like it I won't talk about it.  I do the same thing for games.  I don't like DOTA2, Guild Wars 2, Pokemon or any of the Final Fantasy games but you won't see me continuously trashing them just because I think they're hot garbage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI

[Velorath]

I haven't noticed a fall off in the printing of money hats from Star Wars. But do carry on as if a few angry fans actually matter at the box office. That's the favorite threat of the fan who believes they're not being serviced exquisitely enough, and it almost never has anything to do with how anything performs in the actual marketplace.

If there's a fall off I don't think we'll really know about it until Episode IX. There's a sizable drop off between VII and VIII which is to be expected of course but how many people turn out for the opening weekend of IX will to some extent be a reflection of how many people liked VIII.

[Khaldun]

Prediction: it won't matter one fucking bit what a bunch of angry menchildren think--and I'm a Star Wars manchild.

Where the falloff will come is if the million side movies like Solo suck--there's only so much Star Wars people can take, and if it really sucks, nobody, even the angry menchildren, will buy it. If you do a bad fighting game or a mediocre loot-box multiplayer game or a bad TV special, then it's bad and people won't come.

If you do something that's good in basic terms but that a particular subtribe of the tribe of fans think is sacrilege, you'll do fine. Because Protestantism is always big enough to survive a small movement of angry weirdos founding their own church; it's kind of the basic idea of Protestantism in the first place.

[Threash]

Well Rogue One was probably the best of the bunch so far, Solo did seem to have problems during production but what they've shown so far looked good.

[Velorath]

Prediction: it won't matter one fucking bit what a bunch of angry menchildren think--and I'm a Star Wars manchild.

Where the falloff will come is if the million side movies like Solo suck--there's only so much Star Wars people can take, and if it really sucks, nobody, even the angry menchildren, will buy it. If you do a bad fighting game or a mediocre loot-box multiplayer game or a bad TV special, then it's bad and people won't come.

If you do something that's good in basic terms but that a particular subtribe of the tribe of fans think is sacrilege, you'll do fine. Because Protestantism is always big enough to survive a small movement of angry weirdos founding their own church; it's kind of the basic idea of Protestantism in the first place.

It's not a matter of what angry menchildren think, although since menchildren make up a lot of the repeat business I would suspect that for every one they alienate that potentially multiple ticket sales being lost.

I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that people who don't like a movie are less likely to watch the next one in a franchise. You can point to TLJ's box office grosses as an indication that people liked it but those grosses also include the money of people who bought a ticket that thought it was shit. I don't know that the spinoff grosses are or will be much of an indication of anything, but I absolutely think IX's opening weekend will be a reflection of what people thought about VIII for better or worse (and I'm not predicting that there's going to be a huge drop off because I clearly have no idea).

[Ironwood]

Well Rogue One was probably the best of the bunch so far, Solo did seem to have problems during production but what they've shown so far looked good.

There's no probably.  Great Star Wars movie.

[jgsugden]

I think the core of the TLK backlash is the catfishing nature of the departures. They set stuff up in TFA that is discarded without respect in TLJ. Characters and plots were just taken away, similarly to how you'd feel if you met that online romance for the first time in person and discovered all the photos were fake. Even if TLJ was a different kind of attractive, it was not the attractive we had been set up to expect.

Snoke essentially violated Chekhov's Gun by going from what seemed to be a major villainous role to an easily discarded and pointless minor character.  The Star Wars phyics that we know were violated by allowing tracking through hyperspace, nonsensical space chase scenes, and a new megaweapon approach to lightspeed ramming that should have changed Star Wars battles a long time ago if it was that easy. JJ respected Lucas' storytelling in TFA, while TLJ adopts different sensibilities. Known characters speak with different voices in TLJ.

Taken separately, most of these departures are digestible. Collectively, they were just too much change from where we expected to go. In the end, I feel like Rian did to Star Wars what JJ did to Star Trek. They changed too much, too fast.

[Nebu]

Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation.  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?

[Threash]

Maybe this Star Wars episode wasn't meant for the old generation.  Maybe it's just a fun movie for the younger crowd?

That's hilarious but the sad truth is that adult collectors are the ones keeping toy lines alive, kids mostly don't play with toys past the age of 4 or so they are too busy with ipads and videogames.

[Khaldun]

Chekov's Gun and other cheap bullshit tropes of cultural criticism should never have gotten into the hands of people who don't have the sense to apply them with any self-awareness.

[TheWalrus]

If you apply Chekov's Gun to life, that's either one insanely busy or ridiculously empty life you got.

[Goumindong]

I think the core of the TLK backlash is the catfishing nature of the departures. They set stuff up in TFA that is discarded without respect in TLJ. Characters and plots were just taken away, similarly to how you'd feel if you met that online romance for the first time in person and discovered all the photos were fake. Even if TLJ was a different kind of attractive, it was not the attractive we had been set up to expect.

Snoke essentially violated Chekhov's Gun by going from what seemed to be a major villainous role to an easily discarded and pointless minor character.  The Star Wars phyics that we know were violated by allowing tracking through hyperspace, nonsensical space chase scenes, and a new megaweapon approach to lightspeed ramming that should have changed Star Wars battles a long time ago if it was that easy. JJ respected Lucas' storytelling in TFA, while TLJ adopts different sensibilities. Known characters speak with different voices in TLJ.

Taken separately, most of these departures are digestible. Collectively, they were just too much change from where we expected to go. In the end, I feel like Rian did to Star Wars what JJ did to Star Trek. They changed too much, too fast.

1) very little was discarded from TFA. Like... I don’t even have a clue about what you’re referring to here

2) Snoke isn’t a “checkovs gun”.... and a checkovs gun isn’t something that can be “violated”. A checkovs gun is something that is unimportant(typically it’s a piece of the background)  and becomes important. Snoke was either always unimportant or was important and then became unimportant. Or was important and then was used for more import.

3) there is nothing wrong with adding new technology to new movies. You’re not violating physics.

4) the space chase was perfectly sensical. And if you can’t figure it out why then maybe you’re just dumb.

5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.

[SurfD]

5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.

Really? Cause I saw the movie twice, and I don't recall anything I would consider a "scene" explaining anything.  It was literally about 5 seconds that consisted of "What are they doing?  Oh shit, they wouldn't!  KRAZAP!" and that was it.

[Velorath]

Hmmm, this thread went downhill fast.

To be fair it would still take 160 more pages to have generated as much debate here as the Star Wars Galaxies NGE.

[Goumindong]

5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.

Really? Cause I saw the movie twice, and I don't recall anything I would consider a "scene" explaining anything.  It was literally about 5 seconds that consisted of "What are they doing?  Oh shit, they wouldn't!  KRAZAP!" and that was it.

Gunnery Officer: Sir, they’re powering up their light speed drive and maneuvering to escape. Should we fire on them?
Hux: It’s empty, let it go
Gunnery Officer: ohhh shit
Hux: Ohhhh shit!

Like, they didn’t sit down and get out a fucking whiteboard and go over the pros and cons but if you aren’t illiterate it should have been pretty obvious.

[SurfD]

5) it’s literally explained right before the hyperspace attack that such things are not easy. They had an entire scene dedicated to telling you this right before the ramming.

Really? Cause I saw the movie twice, and I don't recall anything I would consider a "scene" explaining anything.  It was literally about 5 seconds that consisted of "What are they doing?  Oh shit, they wouldn't!  KRAZAP!" and that was it.

Gunnery Officer: Sir, they’re powering up their light speed drive and maneuvering to escape. Should we fire on them?
Hux: It’s empty, let it go
Gunnery Officer: ohhh shit
Hux: Ohhhh shit!

Like, they didn’t sit down and get out a fucking whiteboard and go over the pros and cons but if you aren’t illiterate it should have been pretty obvious.

Right, except that your "scene" that was supposed to explain "something" literally explains nothing.  Refer back to my original comment to #5 on your point list, and we can maybe keep going around in circles here a few more times.  There was no explanation.  There was just "sudden hyperspace ramming attack".

[Hoax]

imo everything with spaceships in TLJ was fuckstupid and terrible. Everything The New Order does and says is stupid. The comedy for kids bits are really jarringly bad and tonedeaf. The casino planet is awful and if you don't think so you are awful and that's with Benicio Del Toro probably being one of my favorite actors of all time?

Also they don't explain shit about the suicide attack being difficult to do or why nobody ever does it. Fuck off. Its literally a "why doesn't everyone do this all of the time if its this effective" thing and not a single line in the movie removes that question or even half addresses it.

I'm watching Solo in imax because Rogue 1 was fun and the casting looks great. I won't watch the next main trilogy Star Wars in theater unless the word of mouth is really really good from people who admit that the last two are dogshit. Star Wars will continue to print money maybe for our lifetimes or maybe for another decade who knows. It printing money will be used as evidence that its great even though we know that's piss poor evidence.

But this new trilogy looks like it'll reach the same level for me personally as the prequels. I won't even bother seeing all 3 in theaters and imo the prequels so far are better because Phantom Menace is so much better, pod racing and all, than TFA was. Yeah I said it.

Prequel 2 and this movie, advantage to TLJ but its hard to quantify the damage to the universe/lore that yes is a thing and is a deal. I'm going to have a hard time doing anything but roll my eyes every time we send a bunch of x-wings in a desperate low chance attack because why aren't they just suicide attacking this fleet / super weapon?

[jgsugden]

Assholes have trouble with the word essentially, apparently,

[Goumindong]

Yes u guys must have liked the midichlorian scene. “But the movies never told me what exactly the force was and I cannot I fed anything on my own unless it’s explained to me in as if it were science”

Ships are expensive. damage is proportional to the mass of the ship which makes them more expensive. In order to carry out such an attack you have to be close enough to not hit hyperspace but far enough away to have enough velocity to do damage. In order to be at that range the target fleet would have to decide to not fire upon and destroy the hyperspace ram.