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Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi  (Read 248014 times)
IainC
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Reply #385 on: December 23, 2017, 02:49:54 PM

When I said Snoke was external to the Empire, I meant that he wasn't part of the Imperial military/command structure, not that he was from somewhere physically outside of the space. Given that the First Order is basically bits of the Imperial military who are consolidating under a new banner, you'd expect that the person in charge of it would be someone from that hierarchy, someone who was already in a command position.

I don't know how to explain it in a different way, I've tried three times and you still don't understand what my point is. All of those things that you mentioned in your last couple of posts that we don't know about, aren't important to the continuity of the story. I'm not just pulling random background points out and trying to claim that they all need to be explained, I'm saying that there's a lot of deliberate continuity and then this one thing that breaks it with no explanation or context. I also don't really care about the EU, I don't read the novels or comics, I don't watch the cartoon series. The cinematic releases are supposed to maintain enough consistency that you shouldn't need to have read every page on Wookiepedia to follow along. Imagine if ESB had never been made but all the events from the movie were in a Tv special and a couple of novels, RotJ would make no sense to people familiar with ANH. Or if you are reading a history of the USA and there's a random and unexplained reference to the Chief Pope of America. It undermines what you think you know, breaks the rules of the internal arcs that you have already seen and there's no context for it.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 02:54:31 PM by IainC »

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Goumindong
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Reply #386 on: December 23, 2017, 02:56:49 PM

In ESB, you get ZERO background on the Emperor other than that he knows the Force and that Darth Vader calls him Master and that he has sensed Luke's growing mastery of the Force. (But evidently not sensed that Yoda is responsible, interestingly.) You don't know where he's from or what his deal is. You find out that Vader is indeed in armor and that he seems to be seriously injured or scarred underneath it. You don't find out why or what happened, nor will you in Return of the Jedi, either. You get virtually no background on Yoda other than that he was a legendary Jedi teacher. Where's he from? Where are the flashbacks about Yoda? Why is he alive but the rest of the Jedi dead?

You don't find out what Han Solo was smuggling for Jabba, or how long he'd been working for him. You don't find out how Han Solo and Chewbacca met (we still haven't, in canon). You don't find out exactly how Vader turned once you find out that he is in fact Anakin Skywalker. You don't find out much more about Palpatine's background in ROTJ, really. We never even have it explained what a "Sith" is in ROTJ and ESB. When we find out Leia is Luke's sister, we don't find out really why Luke was put on Tatooine (with Anakin's stepbrother, for god's sake) other than to "keep them safe from the Emperor". We *do* find out that Obi-Wan and Yoda lie a lot, though, not that the series ever really comes to grips with that.

None of that extra detail is important to the continuity of the trilogy or the evolution of the story. You know who those characters are via context but there isn't a lot of exposition to explain why they are where they are. The stuff in ESB and RotJ establishing the Vader/Luke relationship is really all of it. And that's fine, because the stories aren't establishing a history, they are following the same characters through a single arc. Again though (for the third time), that isn't what is happening in TFA/TLJ. We are being shown a new scenario which very clearly builds off the ending of RotJ. We have most of the same characters, we have the First Order who are using the equipment and iconography of the Empire so there's very obviously a direct connection between what we are seeing now and what was happening then. Now, in this new continuity, there's a new character with an unusual set of abilities on the very top of the tree with no explanation of how or why. Like, nobody gives a shit what Phasma's backstory is, she's just an interchangable senior commander. Likewise Hux or any of the disposable mooks who get blown out of the sky by Poe. But we are given this enigma who doesn't fit in with what we understand the situation is. He's external to the old Empire (otherwise Palpatine and Vader would have known about him) and yet he inherits all of the remnants of it somehow? It's a safe bet that most of the other First Order senior brass are former Imperial commanders but this guy just walks in off the street and takes over in place of an existing Grand Moff.


Considering we currently live in a world where some asshole just walked in off the street and co-opted about 40% of the US's political apparatus i am not too shocked that this could happen.

Plus there would be a lot of institutional as well as personal inertia in play when a big time dark side force user declares that he is in charge and murders the people who disagree.

Plus, its not like that doesn't happen before your eyes in TLJ. Hux is all "well now that snoke is dead I am in charge and you will answer to 'oh nevermind yes please do not murder me'". And this isn't even getting into snokes established powers like mind control and force connection. And if we want to say "but why did it take so long" well the dark side is fast, easy, seductive. He might not have even been around or not have cared or it literally doesn't matter he was a plot device and not a character
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Reply #387 on: December 23, 2017, 03:07:32 PM

I remain puzzled. Here's what is (vaguely) canon via the new EU (comics, books, a few comments in TFA). The First Order are the fragments of the Imperial war machine that either survived the battle of Jakku or that never got involved with it, plus a whole bunch of new wannabees who have made their way to the the First Order. They operate at the Rim, or at least until recently. The Resistance formed because Leia couldn't convince the Republic hierarchy that the First Order was a threat that needed to be stopped.

There is nothing in any of that which makes it impossible or difficult to understand how a Dark Side Force wielder previously unassociated with the Empire might show up and gain control of it. It's practically expected--there's a ton of examples in human history of fragmented, formerly dominant forces in retreat that give way to a new charismatic leader who helps them find purpose again--often a leader who has been operating in the area that those forces have retreated into. This is a group of people where the old guys are like the Nazis who escaped to Paraguay and the new guys are like the alt-right, where they're gathering in some ass-end place that's far from anything. Where the entire mystique of their cause is about an all-powerful Emperor who had mysterious powers. I have no idea why the idea that some Force-using grifter could just show up and take charge seems like PLEASE EXPLAIN, THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
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Reply #388 on: December 23, 2017, 03:29:52 PM

The more they explain something the shittier it gets. That's how you end up with midichlorians.

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Reply #389 on: December 23, 2017, 07:10:14 PM

Completely. People are forgetting: not that much was explained in the original trilogy. The best stuff was the least explained stuff, really! Do you feel better knowing exactly how Vader ended up in his suit? Exactly who Leia and Luke's mom was? Exactly how she died? Exactly who the Emperor was? Exactly what Anakin was like before he was Darth Vader? Fuck no. Not one bit.
patience
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Reply #390 on: December 23, 2017, 07:28:23 PM

We should be clear. NOBODY liked Snoke. There's only two camps now, either it's people who care about his backstory or people that don't but that character was never well regarded.

.

Plus, as much as I respect RJ for flipping JJ the massive bird by ignoring all his mystery boxes, the audience did spend years speculating on Snoke and buying product.  A little customer loyalty, even an offhand explanatory comment, could have salvaged their emotional and financial investment.

JJ wasn't flipped the bird. He was made aware of what would happen.

It's more the case that Abrams is a slacker. All this knowledge and he was still pitching ideas to Disney last month?

I get he was brought back after the 3rd director was not part of the project but he was still supervising TLJ before that happened.

OP is assuming its somewhat of a design-goal of eve to make players happy.
this is however not the case.
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Reply #391 on: December 23, 2017, 07:53:23 PM

"this guy walks in off the street". That's fine. Why do you need more than that? You didn't have more than that about how the Emperor became the Emperor, or how the Jedi became extinct, or how Yoda survived, yadda yadda yadda.

Because those movies were paced, filmed, and written better than TLJ and did not have 3 decades worth of fandom, lore and history built up in them. They were not continuations of a 6-movie series, they were universe-building as they went along. And Snoke's existence as head honcho of the First Order without any explanation is jarring based on the status quo we are left with at the end of RotJ.

lamaros
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Reply #392 on: December 23, 2017, 07:53:39 PM

Completely. People are forgetting: not that much was explained in the original trilogy. The best stuff was the least explained stuff, really! Do you feel better knowing exactly how Vader ended up in his suit? Exactly who Leia and Luke's mom was? Exactly how she died? Exactly who the Emperor was? Exactly what Anakin was like before he was Darth Vader? Fuck no. Not one bit.


You don't need an exegesis for something to be internally consistent. Nor does the lack of an exegesis prevent something from being internally inconsistent.

I've not seen the movie, but it's a real stretch from the discussion in here to date to consider it worth seeing.
Goumindong
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Reply #393 on: December 23, 2017, 08:36:05 PM

TLJ is, at the least, the third best Star Wars film unless you have a lightsaber stuck up your ass. It’s 100% worth seeing
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Reply #394 on: December 23, 2017, 09:49:15 PM

TLJ is, at the least, the third best Star Wars film unless you have a lightsaber stuck up your ass. It’s 100% worth seeing

The only one worth seeing is Empire, and even that’s filled with bad acting and aged worse than Macaulay Caulkin.

It’s ok to like something because you saw it as a kid and it stuck with you, but Star Wars has been pretty objectively bad since jump street. Anytime some motherfucker is all “it pioneered a whole bunch of special effects and moved a genre forward,” I can’t help but think about Titanic and what a giant piece of shit it was and it effectively did the exact same fucking thing.
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Reply #395 on: December 23, 2017, 09:49:31 PM

About on par with attack of the clones (better than Phantom Menace).
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 10:35:59 PM by Teleku »

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Reply #396 on: December 23, 2017, 09:50:10 PM

About on par with the clone wars (better than Phantom Menace).

Valerian was better than Phantom Menace.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #397 on: December 24, 2017, 01:22:21 AM

"this guy walks in off the street". That's fine. Why do you need more than that? You didn't have more than that about how the Emperor became the Emperor, or how the Jedi became extinct, or how Yoda survived, yadda yadda yadda.

Because those movies were paced, filmed, and written better than TLJ and did not have 3 decades worth of fandom, lore and history built up in them. They were not continuations of a 6-movie series, they were universe-building as they went along. And Snoke's existence as head honcho of the First Order without any explanation is jarring based on the status quo we are left with at the end of RotJ.

Why is it jarring? It's been 30 years in the movies too. I just don't get why this is an issue.

Let me use a bad analogy. Assume World War 1 and World War 2 aren't history but are fictional stories. In the WW1 trilogy the Germans are led by Kaiser Wilhelm. In the WW2 trilogy they're led by Hitler. There is only a bit over 20 years between those two wars.  Your issues with Snoke would be like saying "where did this Hitler guy come from? He wasn't mentioned in the WW1 trilogy and this isn't the status quo we had at the end of the original World War trilogy."

I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly. Shit changes in 3 decades. Even if you want to argue that "he's a powerful Force user, wouldn't he  have been mentioned?" there are counter arguments within the movies. The Jedi had no idea Palpatine was Sideous. The Empire had no clue where Yoda or Kenobi were or even if they were alive. More importantly, the Jedi thought Sith were wiped out and were shocked when Darth Maul killed Qui Gon.

But more to the main point. I can't stress enough how much of a big deal 30 years is. None of the heroes of the current trilogy were even born during the original trilogy timeline. I think the oldest is Poe and he was born a couple of years after Return of the Jedi.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #398 on: December 24, 2017, 04:22:53 AM

Good: Performances, Theme, Many of the visuals (especially in the final act)

Bad: Pacing in the middle, felt kind of long (as a result of 1).

I'm a "star wars fan" and wasn't bothered by the lore stuff that is apparently making some people grumpy. The protagonists of these movies are space wizards. I can suspend my disbelief for various forms of space wizardry.
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Reply #399 on: December 24, 2017, 05:03:15 PM

I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly.

Goddamn, I cannot make it any more clear than I already have. It's not even about having an elaborate backstory, it's about having any sort of explanation of what or who the fuck he is whatsoever. Literally we know that he's super important (why? Don't know) to the First Order (until he's not), he's powerful in the Force (which we saw no evidence of in the first movie), and he maybe turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren (but again, how or why? Don't know). Show don't tell is a big time rule in writing especially in screenwriting. For the most part, the things we've seen out of Snoke come out of nowhere because there's been no evidence of things we've been told before hand. He was too much of a mystery in TFA and despite 5 1/2 hours of screen time, we really don't know anything else about him now either. But that's ok, because we really don't know diddly shit about the First Order either other than their sheer ineptitude at everything which keeps me wondering how the fuck they are a danger to the Resistance.

Most of the problems I'm highlighting are because they are questions I asked myself in the theater during the movie, which takes me right out of the flow of watching the movie. I'm not saying they can't be fixed in the next movie, but they make watching this one without the benefit of the last movie really difficult.

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Reply #400 on: December 24, 2017, 06:29:31 PM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

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HaemishM
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Reply #401 on: December 24, 2017, 06:45:47 PM

Because the death of what appeared to be a major (and interesting) character in the middle of the story arc without any explanation for that character seems like a tremendous goddamn waste, especially when what we are left with for an antagonist is a whiny, petulant teenager and his snotty bottom bitch who enjoys getting force tossed against the side of an AT-AT.

As I've said, I enjoyed the movie while watching it, but the problems with the movie's structure, pacing and story choices eats at me the more I think about it afterwards.

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Reply #402 on: December 24, 2017, 09:25:01 PM

It is damn near idiotic to compare TLJ to the original trilogy.  They were made 30 to 40 years apart, the genre has evolved a lot since then, and they play different roles in the mythology - when they're the first, second, third and 9th movies... and when there is literally a hundred more hours in the official storyline before this 9th movie was released. 

A new movie in a series should CONTINUE the existing story.  It should feel like it is the next step in the story.  This movie flipped off episode 7 by writing off the importance of the identity of core characters, it rewrote the identity of the most essential figure in the mythos (Luke) from the original trilogy and it applauded itself for "being novel" rather than being part of the existing journey.  JJ at least tried to honor what came before with episode 7, although he failed in many respects.

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Reply #403 on: December 24, 2017, 10:28:22 PM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.
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Reply #404 on: December 24, 2017, 10:36:07 PM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.
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Reply #405 on: December 24, 2017, 10:59:46 PM

I didn't think the casino really felt out of place.  It showed where the real power brokers and wealthy hang out to have fun.  Or whatever.

Much of the places we've seen in the movies have been the ass end of nowhere.  The places Luke and Rey came from had few people.  The rebel bases are on planets that are essentially useless for human habitation, in order to be more difficult to be found.

Someone has to be bankrolling all of those capital class ships that are constantly being blown up.  It makes an evil sort of sense that there exists an entire class of people creating political strife and warfare for their own personal enrichment.
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Reply #406 on: December 25, 2017, 12:42:35 AM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though? TLJ feels a lot like an episode of a TV series to me in that it introduces these character arcs and then resolves them by the time the movie has ended and for the most part the characters aren't left that different than how they started at the beginning. We're shown that Poe (one of the least fleshed out TFA characters) is a hothead who charges into action rather than taking the time to look at the big picture but by the end he's learned to be a little wiser. Rey is in danger of succumbing to the dark side and there's a chance Kylo could be brought to the light, but in the end neither of them cross over to the other side. Luke has lost faith but finds it in the end and aside from being dead now has ended up back more in-line with what we'd expect from the OT. Plot-wise, Kylo now runs the First Order and the Resistance have been reduced to a handful of people and that is about the extent to which the ball has been moved down the field in this movie.

In theory Kylo killing Snoke is supposed to show that he's moved past his internal conflict and is committed to the Dark Side and burning down his past, but "guy who killed his father Han Solo in the last movie is still evil" isn't exactly a shocking character development.

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Reply #407 on: December 25, 2017, 02:12:45 AM

I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly.

Goddamn, I cannot make it any more clear than I already have. It's not even about having an elaborate backstory, it's about having any sort of explanation of what or who the fuck he is whatsoever. Literally we know that he's super important (why? Don't know) to the First Order (until he's not), he's powerful in the Force (which we saw no evidence of in the first movie), and he maybe turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren (but again, how or why? Don't know). Show don't tell is a big time rule in writing especially in screenwriting. For the most part, the things we've seen out of Snoke come out of nowhere because there's been no evidence of things we've been told before hand. He was too much of a mystery in TFA and despite 5 1/2 hours of screen time, we really don't know anything else about him now either. But that's ok, because we really don't know diddly shit about the First Order either other than their sheer ineptitude at everything which keeps me wondering how the fuck they are a danger to the Resistance.

Most of the problems I'm highlighting are because they are questions I asked myself in the theater during the movie, which takes me right out of the flow of watching the movie. I'm not saying they can't be fixed in the next movie, but they make watching this one without the benefit of the last movie really difficult.

This is actually more than we knew about Emperor Palpatine as of ESB. We didn't even know he had turned Vader. We knew he ruled the Empire and that even Vader answered to him. We knew he was worried about Luke being powerful. I don't think it's even clear he is a force user though appearing as a robed old dude in a hologram certainly implied evil space wizard.

The new trilogy has its issues but this fixation on Snoke isn't one of them. We really know all we need to know: 1) He is a powerful force user 2) he rules the First Order 3) he seduced Kylo Ren to the dark side.

How he came to power in the 30 years after the original trilogy isn't important. Exactly how he seduced Kylo isn't important. A list of his force abilities isn't important. What's important is his role in the story which honestly may not be over since Disney is apparently letting each team make its own decisions about the episodes. JJ could say it was all a trick, another Force hologram. He could have Snoke come back as an evil version of a Force ghost. Or he could simply go with what happened on screen and make Kylo the big bad.


"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #408 on: December 25, 2017, 08:04:02 AM

I can honestly debate good and bad things about this new trilogy. But freaking out that we don't get a backstory on Snoke is just...silly.

Goddamn, I cannot make it any more clear than I already have. It's not even about having an elaborate backstory, it's about having any sort of explanation of what or who the fuck he is whatsoever. Literally we know that he's super important (why? Don't know) to the First Order (until he's not), he's powerful in the Force (which we saw no evidence of in the first movie), and he maybe turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren (but again, how or why? Don't know). Show don't tell is a big time rule in writing especially in screenwriting. For the most part, the things we've seen out of Snoke come out of nowhere because there's been no evidence of things we've been told before hand. He was too much of a mystery in TFA and despite 5 1/2 hours of screen time, we really don't know anything else about him now either. But that's ok, because we really don't know diddly shit about the First Order either other than their sheer ineptitude at everything which keeps me wondering how the fuck they are a danger to the Resistance.

Most of the problems I'm highlighting are because they are questions I asked myself in the theater during the movie, which takes me right out of the flow of watching the movie. I'm not saying they can't be fixed in the next movie, but they make watching this one without the benefit of the last movie really difficult.

This is actually more than we knew about Emperor Palpatine as of ESB. We didn't even know he had turned Vader. We knew he ruled the Empire and that even Vader answered to him. We knew he was worried about Luke being powerful. I don't think it's even clear he is a force user though appearing as a robed old dude in a hologram certainly implied evil space wizard.

The new trilogy has its issues but this fixation on Snoke isn't one of them. We really know all we need to know: 1) He is a powerful force user 2) he rules the First Order 3) he seduced Kylo Ren to the dark side.

How he came to power in the 30 years after the original trilogy isn't important. Exactly how he seduced Kylo isn't important. A list of his force abilities isn't important. What's important is his role in the story which honestly may not be over since Disney is apparently letting each team make its own decisions about the episodes. JJ could say it was all a trick, another Force hologram. He could have Snoke come back as an evil version of a Force ghost. Or he could simply go with what happened on screen and make Kylo the big bad.



The reason why "evil space wizard head of the empire 2.0" isn't enough because of the end of ESB. But lets go back to equivalents. The argument that Palptine didn't need development or explanation so neither does Snoke is a fallacy. They may occupy the same chair but they don't serve the same thematic roles. Vader by himself was a great villain who pushed around the characters on screen. He was a wall to overcome, a wall who seemed near impossible to overcome, that presented a lot of the emotional, spiritual and physical threat to our heroes. He wasn't just the big bad, he was The Bad, the physical and near omnipresent face of the Empire. If this was a cake, Vadar would be everything but the icing. Palptine was great icing, because he made "that guy" the guy who took no shit from his fellow officers say the word master. Palptine let us know that the Empire was even bigger still than Darth Vader and ultimately Luke's quest to defeat Vader, a quest given to him on Yoda's death bed, may have been a little pointless.

In comparison Ben Solo is none of those things. He isn't the face of the first order, he isn't some wall that our heroes need to overcome. He is what fans often say "a villain in training" or some shyt. From a story telling perspective if that guy isn't who the movie says we should care about than who is? Nobody? Well that's dumb might as well stay home and not watch this shyt. Obviously Snoke is the one who we has the audience to this shyt should be caring about, he turned Ben Solo to the darkside, orchestrated the murder of the new jedi order, and rules the empire v2. Obviously his story and the conflict that comes with overcoming that character is what we're watching these movies for. Well according the The Last Jedi, and the fanboys that's not the case either. So who is providing the conflict that we need so we can have stakes, and tension or drama. Who is the emotional, spiritual and physical threat to our heroes if we already established that Ben Solo is definitely NOT that guy? Nobody you say? Well looks like you failed at movie making, young adult novels for teenage girls to the right you go.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 08:10:41 AM by MediumHigh »
BobtheSomething
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Reply #409 on: December 25, 2017, 11:46:24 AM

On another board, someone pointed out that all the "backstory doesn't matter because drama" doesn't really pan out.  If you cut the spice of the story to get right to the meat, then the story better not skimp on the meat, right?  But when Rey and Ren finish overthrowing the Snoke regime, Rey discovers that Ren is not saved and they fight a battle of wills over the legacy lightsaber--and destroy it!  There is a huge flash and now these two pivotal characters stare each other down with nothing between them, no legacy to get in the way of this fresh, dynamic conflict.  Just Rey and Ren, the unturned and the unsaved in a universe overturned.  This is it!  This is the moment!  Conflict in the raw, right here, right now.  How will it end?


Fuck knows because the next time we see these characters, Ren is alone and Rey is on the Falcon.

I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 11:48:49 AM by BobtheSomething »
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Reply #410 on: December 25, 2017, 12:23:37 PM

I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.

You do know that there's going to be another Star Wars movie, right?

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BobtheSomething
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Reply #411 on: December 25, 2017, 12:32:39 PM

I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.

You do know that there's going to be another Star Wars movie, right?

Are you saying we didn't need to see how they reacted to each other or how Rey got out of that situation and escaped from the big ship of doom?  If the confrontation and the escape aren't important, what is?

Besides, TLJ pretty much buried the idea that "we'll see this resolved in the next film".
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Reply #412 on: December 25, 2017, 03:18:39 PM

Because, as many people pointed out at the time, the notion that the giant space Empire was finished because the leader was blown up in a desperate attack and they lost a big ship is not terribly satisfying. Like, there are no evil empires ever that are just defeated because the good guys send in an underpowered force that makes a hail mary move and gets lucky. They just lose a battle, it takes a lot longer to lose a war.
Malakili
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Reply #413 on: December 25, 2017, 04:36:13 PM

I guess the resolution to the most personal conflict established in the film is unimportant to the film.

You do know that there's going to be another Star Wars movie, right?

Are you saying we didn't need to see how they reacted to each other or how Rey got out of that situation and escaped from the big ship of doom?  If the confrontation and the escape aren't important, what is?

Besides, TLJ pretty much buried the idea that "we'll see this resolved in the next film".

We saw the confrontation, they stalemated. She escaped after the explosion and a scene of her coming to and running to ship isn't really going to make that any more emotionally impactful.
Goumindong
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Reply #414 on: December 25, 2017, 08:00:06 PM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though?


Yes. He death has loads of meaning to Kylo.
Velorath
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Reply #415 on: December 25, 2017, 08:47:36 PM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though?


Yes. He death has loads of meaning to Kylo.

How? It's set up like this is supposed to be Kylo going full Dark Side and no longer being conflicted, but that's also what killing Han in the last movie was supposed to do. All they did was backpedal on his character development by having him be unable to fire on Leia, and now killing Snoke is supposed to be a more pivotal moment for him than killing one of his parents?

It doesn't work and feels like the whole reason for that sequence is to redo Vader turning on Palpatine in ROTJ and then subverting expectations by not having Kylo turn back to the Light like Vader did.
HaemishM
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Reply #416 on: December 25, 2017, 09:03:16 PM

It doesn't work and feels like the whole reason for that sequence is to redo Vader turning on Palpatine in ROTJ and then subverting expectations by not having Kylo turn back to the Light like Vader did.

This. Lots of the story and character decisions they made felt like they were there merely to subvert expectations than for any good story reasons.

Goumindong
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Reply #417 on: December 25, 2017, 09:42:42 PM

I honestly don't understand why anything more than what we got is in any way necessary. Nothing you can learn about Snoke would make the series any better, nothing.

Maybe because he is a bad character and villain and the fact that his death means nothing really kills are dramatic tension in the film and franchise.

His death has plenty of meaning. It just has nothing to do with his backstory because his backstory doesn’t matter. You know everything you need to know about his relationship to Kylo with what is presented in the first two movies of this trilogy.

Does his death have much meaning though?


Yes. He death has loads of meaning to Kylo.

How? It's set up like this is supposed to be Kylo going full Dark Side and no longer being conflicted, but that's also what killing Han in the last movie was supposed to do. All they did was backpedal on his character development by having him be unable to fire on Leia, and now killing Snoke is supposed to be a more pivotal moment for him than killing one of his parents?

It doesn't work and feels like the whole reason for that sequence is to redo Vader turning on Palpatine in ROTJ and then subverting expectations by not having Kylo turn back to the Light like Vader did.

It is a rejection of the master/student relationship.
Ruvaldt
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Reply #418 on: December 25, 2017, 11:01:46 PM

Yes.  But even more than that.  I think it's a rejection of the Light/Dark dynamic.  Velorath says that he's supposed to become uber-dark after killing Snoke...I think he's rejecting the whole system.  Kylo killing Snoke isn't about dark or light, and I don't recall Kylo ever mentioning the dark side to Rey in that scene at all.  He wants to destroy the past, burn it all, and create something new in its ruins.  He pretty much says it; you have to kill the past, etc.  Funny, too, since Snoke actually gave him the idea at the top of the movie; it's what drives him to destroy his mask.

The point of the Casino scene is that it shows that the First Order and the Resistance are both being manipulated by a powerful, wealthy elite.  The war is, and always has been, a sham.  Even going back to the Clone Wars and the Empire vs. Rebellion period.  It's something that rich people dreamed up and perpetuated to keep making themselves even richer while they sit around on their pleasure planet and other people die for some meaningless cause.

That's the real essence of this movie.  It's a call to reject the past so that you can become your own person, unfettered by past mistakes.  Luke throws away his lightsaber.  Kylo destroys his mask.  Yoda/Luke destroy the Jedi books (though they really don't because Rey saves them).  Kylo kills Snoke.  It's a theme that repeats throughout the film.  Kylo attempting to kill Skywalker at the end is also an extension of that, though of course it also has a touch of personal vendetta.

"For a long time now I have tried simply to write the best I can. Sometimes I have good luck and write better than I can." - Ernest Hemingway
Velorath
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Posts: 8980


Reply #419 on: December 25, 2017, 11:55:20 PM

Yes.  But even more than that.  I think it's a rejection of the Light/Dark dynamic.  Velorath says that he's supposed to become uber-dark after killing Snoke...I think he's rejecting the whole system.  Kylo killing Snoke isn't about dark or light, and I don't recall Kylo ever mentioning the dark side to Rey in that scene at all.  He wants to destroy the past, burn it all, and create something new in its ruins.  He pretty much says it; you have to kill the past, etc.  Funny, too, since Snoke actually gave him the idea at the top of the movie; it's what drives him to destroy his mask.

I'd maybe buy into that interpretation a little bit more if Kylo wanted to destroy the First Order also and wasn't just hellbent on murdering the Resistance and Luke. He's not rejecting anything he hadn't already rejected aside from Snoke himself, and all he's done there is usurped Snoke's place in things and continued on with exactly what Snoke was already doing.

His character is largely unchanged after killing Snoke and he even still comes across like the same unhinged child trying to act like he's an adult. It's just that throughout the movie we've been teased with Rey sensing the good still in him which again is meant to evoke Luke's feelings about Vader in ROTJ in order to subvert that later. Kylo's whole character arc in this movie is that we're led to think he might change and then he doesn't. Rey gets that arc as well.

This movie has big themes it's trying to get across (all of which I think are outright stated by characters at various times) but I don't think it carries any of them through to successful conclusions.
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