Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Riggswolfe]

Some of the complaints amuse me but two of them simply make me roll my eyes and look amused.


All in all I really enjoyed the movie. I do think some of the middle bits dragged but the director was trying to make a point, that Yoda explicitly states, the failing is ok and trying to be the big damn hero all the time isn't always the answer. The whole side quest with the casino was intended to teach that lesson to Finn and especially Poe.

[Khaldun]

I loved this movie.

I loved that it dared to not give in to the most adolescent desires in some SW fans. I love that it poked Lucas' infantile understanding of Joseph Campbell so hard in the eye that it came out with eyeball goop all over it.

I loved that Poe Dameron has a desperate, elaborate plan that actually gets people killed because it's so reckless.

I love that in the end, a movement has to be a movement to have any chance--that it's not just redshirts and a couple of space wizard superheroes.

I love that it announced that not everybody has to be related to everybody.

I love that a central character was allowed to have been a bitter failure.

I love that someone made a goddamn film rather than a bunch of fan fiction fanservice.

Yeah, the casino planet shit dragged some. Ok.

[Khaldun]

Also, I fucking love that it doesn't care


I love


I love

[Bunk]

I'd agree. While the movie definitely had a few too many cheesy laughs, it didn't feel like a movie pandering to kids like most of its predecessors did. The casino scene was one of those bits needed to get certain plot points across, so I see why it was there, but it was hurt by containing the overly stupid chase sequence.

I did like the emphasis the whole movie had on the idea that nobodies could make a difference when properly inspired.

[Khaldun]

And holy shit, do I love

[jgsugden]

So the following things did not bug you?

...which was a consistent problem.  Something awesome would occur and then be followed by something that took me back out of the film. 

This movie had the story consistency and logic flaws of a Saturday morning cartoon.

Also, TFA was criticized for being a remake of ANH with elements of Empire and Jedi.  Well...
Did anyone find the dialogue outstanding?  I found it inconsistent and awkward.  And I'm not talking about the masive personality shift in Luke between the movies. 

and Lakov_Sanite:
People calling this the best of the films ... crazy.

[eldaec]

And holy shit, do I love

This and

 

were absolutely the best calls made in the film.

[eldaec]

Overall this was a decent flick that could have used a decent editor.  

Not one of these things need to resolved.

If someone can be bothered to write a decent story around them then make a Rogue 1 style one shot about it by all means.

But none of them are relevant to resolving the actual story being told across the 3 films.

[jgsugden]

On Snoke:

[MediumHigh]

Boy was this some old bullshit.

Though I say fuck it at this point, if I close my eyes and pretend this movie is about a tranny luke skywalker who became a bounty hunter after the death of vader this becomes way more enjoyable. Fan fiction level writing here but the folks who'd give you tranny luke galaxies greatest bounty hunter and grey jedi. The force awakens was bad star wars, this is star wars thrown out of a 10 story window and shot till its dead. Just tell me when you guys are ready for spoilers fuck.

[Khaldun]

So the following things did not bug you?

Various stuff follows

As far as stuff not making sense otherwise, there are none of these movies that can sustain even the most remote examination in this respect. It wasn't until Rogue One that they tried to explain why an expensive space station designed to kill planets had a flaw that would allow a single torpedo to destroy it.

They've never explained why the Empire/First Order doesn't build capital ships that are primarily armed to kill fast light attack craft like X-Wings, considering that EVERY SINGLE SPACE BATTLE in the entire saga features light attack craft ripping the shit out of giant capital ships that are built to kill nothing but other giant capital ships.

They've never explained why everybody in this universe builds giant bottomless shafts in just about every major construction project and large military vessel.

They've never explained why everyone forgets the Jedi so completely within such a short span despite the fact that they were every-fucking-where as space cops and warrior monks for thousands of years.

They've never explained why if the Force is everywhere and in everything 99.9% of beings have no feelings for it and can't access it. Except for the one time they did explain it and everyone wished they hadn't.

They've never explained why Han Solo is so careful about his calculations for hyperspace the first time we meet him but that afterwards we never get any sense that anybody has to do much of anything remotely complicated to travel across hyperspace. This film might be the first time we ever see a situation where finite fuel or energy supplies matter even slightly. (Not sure why they don't just bop a small ship out to a nearby fuel depot and buy a couple of in-flight tankers to resupply their ships, except maybe none of them are able to keep up with the fastest ships in the Republic fleet when they're under full steam like this.)

They've never explained why Princess Leia, knowing that the Falcoln is being tracked, doesn't just land quickly in a friendly port and get the tracker removed stat (or ask R2-D2 to find it, he seems pretty handy with that sort of thing) but instead decides to go to the Rebel Base and basically put them on a short timer to figure out the plans or die. Prior to Rogue One, we didn't even know that she knew the plans showed that the Death Star had a design flaw.

On and on. Every single one of these movies has a plot situation or ten that doesn't bear close examining. The only real question is what they do with it narratively. The Phantom Menace had a nine-year old beating an armada to prove he was destined to be powerful, ok; this one had contrived situations to explore the nature of failure, the weakness of messianic heroism, the desperation of resistance, etc.  The difference between any of these films is not whether there are contrived situations, it's the storytelling that surrounds them. This is mostly great in that respect.

[Miguel]

[Threash]

He did.

[MediumHigh]

he a wizard harry

[eldaec]

On Snoke:

This is premise. You got your explanation as far as it affects this story.

 

This story is not about that. It about how Ben grows in power.

It also isn't about why Poe Dameron is a show off who doesn't consider the bigger picture.

It also isn't about why Finn struggles to commit to be part of something bigger.

It also isn't about why Rey was left in a junkyard to fend for herself.

What it is about is how these 4 people react to their situation.

[jgsugden]

Nevermind - That posted late...

[Lakov_Sanite]

If he elected to leave in that fashion, he turned his back on his sister and so many others.

What's he gonna do, take on the first order with a laser sword?

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"  I mean, how much exposition do you need in your movies?

[MediumHigh]

Thinking about this movie, not that there was much to contemplate, has me wondering if there is something wrong with me. Do I hate fun? Are these movies not for me? Does a casual star wars nerd, someone who doesn't instantly buy anything with a clone trooper on it but is pretty knowledge about the universe... is someone like me not the intended audience. Do I have to turn off my brain and pretend I'm watching a transformers movie, clapping my hands in glee every time Michael Bay gives a blow job to explosions and the american way like I suspect people who do like those movies probably do?

Or is it bullshit without the small caveat of some attention paid to basic star wars lore. Is it so un-star wars that it simply goes off its own rail, skipping along the fan wankery path of grey jedi and re-resurrected-aborted-baby-palatines. Am I expecting too much from a franchise that gave us the prequals? Is the standard so irreparably low that its enough to have a coherent passage of dialogue?

Trying to identify who is this movie for I'm starting to draw some blanks. Is it for star wars fans? Well no. Fuck all the shit we will never get explained in this movie (who is snoke, why does the first order have the entire galaxy under its control, why does lei army called the resistance/rebels when their the army/navy of the galactic republic, how can snoke build a death star and no one notice or care, why isn't the first order considered terrorist), the stuff it bothers to put a magnify glass on has more in common with the xmen than it does star wars.


I would say this is for the casuals but the casuals are giving this a 50% on rotten tomatoes. Or is it the star wars fans? Maybe the vagueness, the inability for the series to follow any kind of cannon (or its own cannon) the fact that it doubles down on everyone's complaints about the force awakens is burning people out. Exposing this for what it is, Disney digging into the pockets of the every man with a new family friendly story about angsty teenagers fighting non threatening space nazies. And that's ok. But don't call it star wars. Not because that isn't the premise of star wars. But because Star Wars did it first, and better. We don't call the hunger games battle royale 2 because that's how people get shot in the face.

[Khaldun]

You should stick to short trolling statements because you make just about no fucking sense past two or three sentences.

To put it another way, I have no idea how any filmmaker of any outlook could read your post and figure out what making a movie that would please you would look like.

[Sky]

Absolutely phenomenal movie. I don't bother ranking, for me ANH, ESB, Rogue One and Last Jedi are all great Star Wars, with TFA and RotJ being good SW.

Really looking forward to Rian's trilogy, no idea how JJ is going to follow that unless he and Rian mapped it out during the shooting of LJ. Hell, I wish Rian could go back and reshoot the prequels (because there's a good story underneath all Lucas' egotistical destruction). He's the Kershner of the modern SW generation.

[MediumHigh]

You should stick to short trolling statements because you make just about no fucking sense past two or three sentences.

To put it another way, I have no idea how any filmmaker of any outlook could read your post and figure out what making a movie that would please you would look like.

Hmm I have a particularly obvious number of movies I list as hitting the park right in this forum. Is it too much to ask for a several hundred million dollar movie budget to produce something better than the fucking clone wars cartoons. Fuck a bagel.

[HaemishM]

What it is about is how these 4 people react to their situation.

That is a terrible story that lacks any of the backing to make us understand WHY these characters react to their situation. Things don't happen in a vacuum and people don't live in one. Their past actions and the things that shape them into the people they are can provide context for why they make the decisions they do, and why making those decisions is a struggle worth cheering.

[jgsugden]

If he elected to leave in that fashion, he turned his back on his sister and so many others.

What's he gonna do, take on the first order with a laser sword?

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"  I mean, how much exposition do you need in your movies?

What it is about is how these 4 people react to their situation.

That is a terrible story that lacks any of the backing to make us understand WHY these characters react to their situation. Things don't happen in a vacuum and people don't live in one. Their past actions and the things that shape them into the people they are can provide context for why they make the decisions they do, and why making those decisions is a struggle worth cheering.

100%.

[MediumHigh]

[Abagadro]

Enjoyed 90 percent of it and REALLY enjoyed about 30 percent of it.  I'll have to see it again to see how I really feel about it in the grander scheme of things.

[Ironwood]

Lol, you fuckers need a spoiler thread.   

[Teleku]

Just got done watching this.  I’ll type a long rambling post once I get to my iPad, but basically this:

That's it. I'm done.

In all seriousness, I think I'd rather watch the prequels than this.

It doubled down on every negative aspect of TFW, and removed most of the good.  There was very few things in this movie that legitimately entertained me.

 

[Teleku]

[NowhereMan]

So I had a broadly positive experience out of this. I'm not a super Star Wars nerd (in comparison to the people here, in normal life I probably do count) but this hit enough nostalgia hits and had enough good set pieces for me to enjoy it. There were a few subversive plot twists that worked to keep this from being a rehash of ESB in the same way TFA was a rehash of ANH. That said:

[Khaldun]

Kylo Ren in both films basically shows you that Anakin Skywalker could 100% have worked as a character if he'd been written by someone other than Lucas and played by someone other than Hayden Christiansen. In this film, he's pretty compelling--and he's a villain that you genuinely hate in part because of his arrested development.

As far as backstory, I'm pretty content with the broad outline that the whole series, prequels included, now offers:

a) The Republic was rotting away inside even without Sidious' machinations--its institutions weren't capable of dealing with the scale of its authority. A more compelling filmmaker than Lucas could have made that point without the dullness of tariffs-and-tax debates; it's there in the margins and edges of The Phantom Menace. The Jedi were part of the rot: they had mostly stopped contemplating the Force, mostly gotten used to having their own way, mostly too invested in their own hierarchy. Ascetic warrior monks tied to the energy of existence shouldn't be in a giant fucking office building in the middle of the capital hobnobbing with Senators and Chancellors, they should be in a cave somewhere, keeping their own counsel and valuing their mysteries.
b) Sidious nailed the Jedi because of this weakness and seized the Republic's military power. But he couldn't really stop the centrifugal forces already nipping at the Republic ("the more systems slip through your fingers"). There hasn't been an empire in history that can rule every part of a huge territory through direct force and military occupation. The Rebellion was just the Old Republic's loyalists trying to re-seize power, but in the meantime lots of star systems were going their own way and various kinds of lawlessness and disorder were on the rise--bounty hunters, crime syndicates, local piracy.
c) So when Sidious and Darth Vader die and the second Empire-bankrupting giant killer space station is destroyed, it's kind of easy to see why a lot of the bureaucracy of the Republic/Empire would be fairly glad to re-welcome the Republic leadership to power. But also why some of the Empire's military forces would fight on until being decisively beaten on Jakku.
d) But there's no reason to think that the new Republic's government would be able to solve the problems that both Republic and Empire had. And now they didn't even have their elite space wizard enforcer division and accompanying religious dogma to lean upon.
e) We already know that various generations of Force-devoted religious movements have scattered the entire galaxy with ruins, temples, Force-attuned artifacts, esoteric texts describing unusual disciplines, etc--the in-canon Clone Wars established that. With the galaxy in disarray for a generation, you'd fully expect that a whole new generation of self-trained Force wielders has been popping up all over the place, and that weird little Force cults and secret movements have been emboldened to step out of hiding.
f) TFA vaguely hints at the Republic's increasing fecklessness (if nothing else, because there's a Resistance that has to be secret from the Republic as well as the First Order). Not hard to assume that's driving the law-and-order types into the First Order, maybe especially if they hear there's an awesome Force-wielder guy in charge. Luke and Leia and Han all know who Snoke is, so there must have been a point where they met him or otherwise acknowledged his concrete existence (rather than supposing he was Ben's imaginary Dark Side friend who Ben says drives by in a white van and hands out Force candy).

All of that is pretty readily visible in the entire film saga + Clone Wars cartoon + Rebels, without even really dipping into new-EU stuff like the comics. It readily compresses into:


I don't know that I need more background on any of this. That's enough to make the story move along.

I do think both new films scarcely recognize the implications of Finn as a character, though. That's why the entire dumb casino plot in this one: they needed something for him to do. But this is a Stormtrooper who has made a different moral choice. That means both that all the others are choosing to commit genocide, etc., and are 100% morally culpable (including Kylo Ren, whose atrocities are almost oddly unremarked upon by Rey and Luke, who mostly seem hung up on his patricide and his killing of Luke's pupils instead). But it also means Finn is almost the only person in the entire saga who makes something like an adult moral choice while in possession of all the facts. (The Resistance seems oddly incurious about his potential as an intelligence asset, by the way.)

[Threash]

Hayden Christensen is a great actor, so are Natalie Portman and Ewan McGreggor. The shittiness of the prequels is entirely on Lucas.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Non-spoiler Finn thing:  Yes every stormtrooper has freewill but these are also 100% brainwashed cultists.  The first order may be space nazis but it's not exactly a volunteer or even conscripted army, it's babies bred to be mindless order taking killing machines.  I just can't see any realm where they would be brought up on war crimes, well the storm troopers at least.

Spoiler Luke:

[HaemishM]

I actually do need more backstory than has been provided. The First Order soldiers, military hierarchy and Sith Lords all seem incapable of doing anything with any semblance of competence, to the point that I want at least some explanation for who all these fuckers are and why they are threatening the galaxy. None of this has been established well in the movies at all. For the First Order, we have LITERALLY seen them exist as a garrisoning force on only one planet - the big Death Ball Planet. The only other place we've seen them has been in Star Destroyers or when they invaded the green bar planet in TFA. So the moviegoer has only ever seen evidence that they exist as a force on a planet that's now destroyed. The Republic is even worse because we've only seen them on the 3 planets that were destroyed in about 2 seconds in TFA. They weren't in evidence on Jakku, they weren't on the bar planet except as again, an invading force. The Resistance itself had the one base that we know of - again, on a planet that was mostly obliterated at the beginning of TLJ. At the very least, if either the Republic or the First Order was any sort of ruling force in the galaxy, we should have seen either or both of them on the casino planet with all that concentrated wealth but instead that place had its own security force that seemed autonomous from either organization.

None of these things should exist in a vacuum but it feels very much like they do. And I can't blame there not being enough run time in 2 movies for there to be some of this stuff explained because holy fuck, there's close to 5 hours of screen time so far. I should not have to be asking basic questions about a story like this after almost 5 hours. These things DO matter - and it doesn't have to be a whole thing but there has to at least be some evidence of any of these things.

And Snoke - man, he looked great in this movie and had real menace and I would have liked to see some history of him. Where he came from, why he'd never been mentioned in any of the Star Wars movies before, how he managed to infect and turn Kylo Ren.

Also, Kylo is NOT a compelling character when his mask is off. He's not a villain I hate so much as a villain I laugh at - his petulance and whiny baby tantrums are just irritating. Not as bad as Hayden Christiansen's Vader, but he's no Darth Vader.

[MediumHigh]

Ben Solo is about as compelling as a turd left on the left butt cheek of George lucas after he wipes his ass with toilet paper made of dollar bills. And even that sentence is more interesting than Ben Solo. Who I'm refusing to call Kylo Ren because its a shit name made by an emo edge lord who wanted to sound cool in front of his nazi homies. And saying Ben solo is better than Hayden Anakin is like saying ghost rider 2 is better than ghost rider 1. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Compelling or not I do love that people hate kylo/ben simply for the fact that everyone jizzes in their pants the moment darth vader does something cool.  It's like people just ignore the thousands(billions if you count alderaan) of innocent lives vader alone killed. "but he's so badass!" is all people think and after a while I just get tired of that shit, so along comes a bad guy who you actually loathe as a human being and people can't stand it, it's hilarious. 

I love that the main complete is he's a whiny emo bitch who's not even that competent how is he in charge? Americans should know by now how that happens.