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Author Topic: Civilization VI  (Read 14172 times)
Maledict
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Reply #105 on: October 27, 2016, 03:18:10 AM

So it's basically in the same state every previous Civ game was in shortly after release? Great foundation and probably really great after the first six months have passed, all the bugs have been fixed and most of the rebalancing is finished?


Not really, no.

The AI is bad in regard to unit control. It will get better, but I doubt it will ever be good.

There are some balance issues, but they'll get sorted quickly.

Some of the bigger supposed issues are probably due to people playing the game like it's Civ 5, rather than adjusting to this game. This is not helped by the UI and quite a few game elements being opaque and not explained.

Otherwise the game is in a really really good state. It's way way better than Civ 5 at launch. It's a lot of fun.

Sorry, but as an ardent defender of vanilla civ 5 I have to disagree. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love this version and think I'll be playing it for ages. But right now the AI is broken, in numerous ways:

1) It cannot cope with the player spamming archers, and hardly uses archers itself. Even at the highest difficulty, just beeline archers and conquer your nearest rival.

2) It doesn't understand districts, and doesn't build many of them. Again, even at Deity you won't find industrial districts in most cities, and given how production is King in civ 6 that's a crippling issue. The only district they seem to really go for is the Holy site, which leads me to:

3) It doesn't understand religion. Every AI that gets a religion will expand large numbers of resources trying to spread the religion, even if they aren't trying to win via religion, or when it has absolutely no benefit to them. Often, the AI will do this at the expense of boosting it's own religion - so its spending literally thousands of faith on missionaries to convert me, for no benefit.

4) Balance wise there are numerous gaping issues (like the fact most social policy cards are worthless, whilst the others are insane - or the issue that coastal cities are garbage and should never be built, etc etc).


They've had to bump up the difficulty bonuses as well, and even those don't work. Emperor in Civ 6 gives the AI an extra settler for example, which it didn't get in Civ 5, and yet despite that its actually easier to beat than Civ 5. It's quite bug free for a civ game, but in terms of AI it is definitely dumber than in Civ 5 because it doesn't understand some of the games basic concepts.
Azuredream
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Reply #106 on: October 27, 2016, 03:54:01 AM

The sell values are borked. When you delete a unit you get gold back, a LOT of gold back. Like, half the gold it would take to just buy the unit, or somewhere around that value, I couldn't tell for sure. You can sell builders when they have 1 action left and get half a builder worth of gold. Considering half a builder is at minimum 1.5 actions, you can see how silly that is. it gets even funnier when you play as Scythia with her duplicate horse archer production ability combined with the 100% extra production to cavalry policy. A city with semi-decent production can crank out 2 horse archers worth 400 gold every 1-3 turns. You will be drowning in enough gold to just buy every building outright. You can chop forest/rainforest for full value no matter how far away it is from your cities, so for all the buildings you can't just instantly buy like districts you can just chop all the forests everywhere with an army of purchased builders.

Of course, this breaks the game pretty substantially so if you want to play legitimately ignore everything I just said. But if you want a laugh, give it a try.

The Lord of the Land approaches..
lamaros
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Reply #107 on: October 27, 2016, 04:22:14 AM

Yes, the unit AI is crap. Forget archers you can wipe put a few rivals just with warriors. Doesn't mean the game isn't fun.

It can still be a challenge, the AI can win a space race by turn 300 on Deity.

And yeah, don't do sell exploits they need a fix.

But that doesn't stop the game being fun.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Paelos
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Reply #108 on: October 27, 2016, 10:01:03 AM

Good I see the honeymoon is over and the AI is still shit. It is a Civ game.

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lamaros
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Reply #109 on: October 27, 2016, 10:29:23 AM

Yeah civ 6 is a civ game, it's in the title...

It's a very good civ game.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Tairnyn
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Reply #110 on: October 28, 2016, 04:59:27 PM

The AI does have the issues mentioned, but I am still enjoying the crap out of this.
Brolan
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Reply #111 on: November 06, 2016, 10:06:32 PM

Ok, I'm ready to buy.  Just one question:  Is the digital deluxe edition worth it?
lamaros
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Reply #112 on: November 07, 2016, 02:10:17 AM

Dunno, I didn't get that.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Merusk
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Reply #113 on: November 07, 2016, 07:41:58 AM

I bought it, it's only worth it if you're into having the DLC and will play Civ VI a ton.  You get the first 4 DLC packs with DD along with the 25th anniversary soundtrack (Woo.) If you only want the base game and don't care about the maps, scenarios, and leaders that will be added don't bother.

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Sky
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Reply #114 on: November 07, 2016, 08:36:40 AM

I usually wait until DLC goes on deep discount, if they had a season pass for expansions, maybe.

Spiff
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Reply #115 on: November 18, 2016, 01:22:05 PM

New fairly big patch out: the notes

Good stuff, nothing completely game changing, don't expect the AI to be not retarded or anything, but the tweaks they did to it sound good.
More importantly: they rebalanced religion a bit, which was sorely needed, and removed gold for deleting a unit and clearing tiles outside of your territory.
But most of all a bunch of UI updates happened, like being able to see which tile a city will 'culture-capture' next and in how many turns.

If you're not jonesing for some CIV hard I'd still recommend waiting a patch/expansion or 2 though; there's still too few map options and playable cultures I'd say and the districts need to be looked at to really work (like the never build a city on a coastal tile bs for instance).
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 01:26:08 PM by Spiff »
Merusk
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Reply #116 on: November 21, 2016, 11:13:58 AM

like the never build a city on a coastal tile bs for instance).

What? I've had tons of coastal cities and no problems. What BS are you talking about?

Quote
Reduced the effectiveness of cavalry production policies.

What.. 50% cavalry production combined with the "get an additional calvary for each one you produce" was in no way whatsoever unbalanced. I was just lucky to have 12 calv units destroying my neighbors faster than they could produce 3 warriors.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 11:16:56 AM by Merusk »

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Bunk
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Reply #117 on: November 22, 2016, 09:19:20 AM

I think its a reference to how in Civ 5 you could build at the end of a peninsula and still have a decent potential city. In Civ 6 you can do that, but you won't have anywhere to build districts or wonders.

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Merusk
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Reply #118 on: November 22, 2016, 03:01:30 PM

Ah, yeah. Though it seems that we don't have as many 1-2 tile landmasses as older versions of Civs had, which isn't a bad thing. The snaky mess of continents we could get from some of the old algorithms were often annoying.

I think the smallest island I've had so far was 3 tiles. That's enough for the city, an industrial district, a Harbor and a commerce district. A city stuck on an island in the middle of nowhere doesn't need more than that. At least not the way I play.

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Sky
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Reply #119 on: November 22, 2016, 03:20:09 PM

Yep, I have a little naval fortress set up in a contentious sea set up just like that. You wouldn't want a civilization like that, but an island civ would be distributed anyway.

Spiff
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Reply #120 on: November 23, 2016, 01:26:37 AM

I think its a reference to how in Civ 5 you could build at the end of a peninsula and still have a decent potential city. In Civ 6 you can do that, but you won't have anywhere to build districts or wonders.

That would be the most egregious situation, but it's more that there is simply 0 advantage to building on the coast in this iteration. Coupled with the fact you're almost certainly giving up 2-3 of your best district tiles (many districts benefit from being adjacent to your center) you're actually being penalized for building on the coast.
Sea-resources got a nerf in Civ 6 as well.
It's not game-breaking, but it is a design flaw.

[edit] At the very least you shouldn't be able to build harbors in non-coastal cities.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 01:32:24 AM by Spiff »
Spiff
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Reply #121 on: November 23, 2016, 01:31:41 AM

posting whoopsie
Tebonas
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Reply #122 on: November 23, 2016, 01:38:50 AM

I like the new way cities work. The place the settlers settle is just the city centre, and I like building sprawling metroplexes out of that centre. And I very much don't like to build my harbor in the centre but at the outskirts of my cities. awesome, for real
Sky
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Reply #123 on: November 23, 2016, 09:56:47 AM

there is simply 0 advantage to building on the coast in this iteration.
Navy?

I like to play on Archipelago and still bitch about them taking out transport ships.

Jade Falcon
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Reply #124 on: November 23, 2016, 04:02:47 PM

People use navies? Always seems a waste of production. Can't believe they switched the special unit of Germany from Panzer to uboat,who the hell uses subs?Huh
Sky
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Reply #125 on: November 23, 2016, 11:04:41 PM

Until I choke your empire out and you can never leave your tiny corner of the world because nobody can ever embark.

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Reply #126 on: November 24, 2016, 09:37:21 AM

My game as England went exactly that way. Tons of trade routes and blockades on anyone who dared declare war.

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Teleku
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Reply #127 on: November 24, 2016, 12:23:04 PM

I've pretty much played only on the pangea map every since Civ came out. 

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WayAbvPar
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Reply #128 on: November 24, 2016, 08:45:43 PM

Currently stomping the shit out of the world as America. Harald made the mistake of declaring war on me after I had 40 or 50 turns of peace. I sent several armies of Rough Riders and artillery to take him out...and it took me an extra 10 turns at least because Scythia had so many missionaries and apostles swarming around that I couldn't get through to the cities. I should have taken a screenshot- there had to be 30 of them at least around 3 cities.

Speaking of faith purchases- switching to Theocracy for war seems grossly overpowered. I was able to spam about a dozen Rough Riders out the turn after I was attacked. I had 7 or 8k faith, since I didn't get one of the 7 religions and thus had no interest in spreading religion. I would be surprised if it doesn't get nerfed.

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Sky
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Reply #129 on: November 24, 2016, 10:14:06 PM


Khaldun
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Reply #130 on: January 20, 2017, 06:32:42 AM

I really hope they fix diplomacy. Right now it's bad enough that it interferes with my ability to enjoy the game.

Giving each civilization some actual personality quirks was a great idea. The problem is that it doesn't affect them enough. Scythia should always have a legitimate casus belli if it's attacking me, given how much she supposedly hates surprise attacks. None of the civs actually behave as if their quirks are structuring their behavior, it's just what you need to do in order to be friends with them. And you should not be tagged as a warmonger if you are the one attacked--that's just stupid, the AI civs can surprise attack you and even if you don't keep a city of theirs, you can end up with warmonger points. Even keeping a city under those circumstances should be low warmonger, if any. Basically, the game forces you down the path of a domination victory even if you're trying to do something else. I also think they could have kept a small touch of the play dynamic that created economic pressure on you if you spawned too many cities too quickly.

There's other little stuff that annoys me. City states aren't at all grateful if you liberate them--it doesn't affect your standing with them one bit, from what I can see.

Most of what's annoying me can be fixed in the same way that Civ V was improved steadily. But the diplomacy system is the big thing that needs serious changes.
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Reply #131 on: January 20, 2017, 12:42:32 PM

Yeah liberating a city should generate envoys for you.  Those are the only rep you get with city states anyway. 

Agree that there's no penalty for city spam and it's how I've won all my games so far. Throw out 5-7 cities before 1ad and you're golden. Even if assholes like the Vikings attack you for not having a strong enough navy. Wiped him out with little effort, no more whining.

The warmonger penalties get stupid, I agree. It's way too easy to be flagged even if you've only ever defended yourself. As America I just said fuck it and wiped out everyone else on my continent.  I was such an economic juggernaut the  that nobody stood a chance.  Cultural victory before 1800.

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Khaldun
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Reply #132 on: January 20, 2017, 01:16:03 PM

See, the different personalities for the AIs *should* generate more divergent gameplay, but instead it basically nearly dictates just wiping them out. You're going to be max warmongered anyway no matter what you do.

Another dumb thing: alliances. They make zero sense: I have more useful negotiating options with non-allies! The fact that an alliance just means "open borders and not much else" just screams to me "We went live with diplomacy not entirely finished".
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Reply #133 on: January 20, 2017, 02:24:48 PM

Ooh yeah good one. I entered my first alliance cautiously having rebuffed guys who'd been at war my entire first game.  The. Found out it means nothing. No defense agreement or mandatory war.  The only benefits are a few economic policies that generate more goodies for you and them if allied. Dumb.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Azuredream
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Reply #134 on: January 21, 2017, 12:17:01 AM

Yup. By somewhere in the midgame every other Civ hates me but it doesn't really affect the game at all. They declare war on you if they think they can win, how much they like you or not doesn't factor in. If they hate me but I've got a good army they'll do nothing, if they love me but my army is weak they'll betray me first chance they get. I've learned to completely ignore the diplomatic aspect of the game until they fix it. Embassies and all that are a waste of gold.

I've got to stop getting blindsided by victory conditions. There's no notification for 'X has launched a satellite' or 'X only needs to convert 1 more civ' and I really wish there was. I know, I know, I should be checking that stuff semi-regularly but I forget a lot and randomly find myself facing down defeat screens wondering what happened.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 12:19:01 AM by Azuredream »

The Lord of the Land approaches..
Khaldun
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Reply #135 on: January 21, 2017, 06:51:05 AM

Also, do you get any compensation for a wonder you don't complete?  Otherwise you have to spend a lot of time checking the other civs to see what they're building and how long they've been building it, because you can waste a looooong time for production otherwise. You can get info about what the other civ is doing but it's a chore to keep track of it--you get a notification from an ambassador or spy if they start a wonder but not updates about it.

Spiff
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Reply #136 on: January 21, 2017, 10:41:32 AM

I'm 99% sure you get bupkis for building but not finishing a wonder.

Overall I've been kind of disappointed with this installment thus far, I get what they were trying to do with the added complexities of district management, more varied diplomacy and whatnot, but it just served to show how monumentally retarded the AI really is in CIV.
It actually feels dumber than any CIV since 3 to me.

Also; I'm just not a fan of the district thing as is atm, it's finicky without adding much depth and makes any map below large feel small and clustered.
Khaldun
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Reply #137 on: January 21, 2017, 11:18:53 AM

The district thing is interesting but overall yeah, I don't think it adds that much without some constraint on city forming like Civ V had. If you had to think very, very carefully about your cities and manage starting them carefully, that would mean something.
Merusk
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Reply #138 on: January 21, 2017, 12:19:37 PM

They tried to make districts and adjacency meaningful without making them overpowered. Which means they're actually meaningless because while that +2 or +3 bonus might mean a ton over the life of the city it's never multiplied and doesn't add much to the city itself. Neighborhoods have a greater impact per-city.

Plus, never locked-out from just building them all in your major cities. If they had bigger bonuses and required more critical thinking about placement and choice they'd have been a game changer. It feels like that was the idea, what with some of the buildings like Arenas and Factories having impact radii but they were TOO timid about implementation.

You get zip for a wonder being built before you, which has pissed me off enough to wipe-out other civilizations. Turn 59/60 for the Great Library and fucking Zimbabwe completed it right before my turn. Fuck him, his cities became my trophies.

This edition also really has me missing barbarians being able to take-over cities. I've left a few wide-open and it's cost me nothing. So long as my settlers don't get kidnapped on their route I have no reason to send escorts. That's disappointing.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Khaldun
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Reply #139 on: January 21, 2017, 02:25:16 PM

The enemy civs literally never send escorts with settlers, and since you can capture settlers as in IV and before, that can sometimes be a bonanza. I found a medium-sized island that three different AI civs were trying to settle, so they kept sending settlers without military units, the barbarians kept capturing them--it was something like six or seven settlers when I just sent two military units over there, about all I needed to just flood the remaining space on my continent.

Barbarians are a bigger nuisance and a weaker threat, really--late in the game they can be really annoying.

One of the few good things I like about the AI is that it sometimes launches surprise attacks, which previous Civ AIs have never done, and it actually does a certain amount of troop build-up beforehand in a good way.
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