Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR

[Sky]

If they can't nail real movement in a game, the tech is dead in the water as a gimmick.

[Cyrrex]

Well, they can.  The question is more whether our inner ears can handle it.

[Pennilenko]

I get instantly motion sick when using my rift. I even built a new machine with a 1080 to get perfect frame rates. Sadly I think the only tech I will be able to enjoy is going to be augmented reality tech.

[Sky]

Well, they can.  The question is more whether our inner ears can handle it.

Yup. It's hit or miss with the 3d vision, even. Some days I can play for a couple hours, sometimes ten minutes and I'm gagging.

Wish I could get it working with my current pc/tv setup.

[Cyrrex]

Grabbed a game call The Solus Project.  It is supposed to be a good VR game, and there are a couple of interesting things about it.  One, it is actually built first as s regular game, and later adapted to VR - I think this is the sort of thing that gives this tech a better chance of succeeding.  Second, they have built in the option of regular movement via a normal controller or the track pad on the Vive controller.  So in other words, it is a true test of whether or not that sort of thing can be workable. I am happy to say that it does indeed work.  I have no idea if the "game" will be any good, but walking around and looking at shit is alone worth the 20 bucks.  Without changing any controller configuration, I can either use teleportation, traditional d-pad movement, or simply walk around in my roomspace area.  Pretty fucking cool.  The devs have been pretty smart about the implementation, as you can toggle the walking speed at 10% intervals.  I started at 40%, and quickly moved up to 50% walking speed.  Turns out my stomach can handle it okay, but I am going to take it slow.  I am feeling some after effects as I type this, but nothing I would call nausea by any stretch.  The only think I dislike is that you move in the direction you are looking instead of the direction you are pushing on the pad, and I can't figure out if there is a way to change that.  I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on it. 

[Cyrrex]

Discovered this morning that there here is a Vive mod for Minecraft.  It supports all movement types and control inputs, so kb/m or Vive controllers with full tracking and room scale.  I guess it works with Optifine and will even work with Forge and all kinds of mods.  I played it a bit to get used to the Vive controls and stuff (which, I must say, they did a great job on).  I am sure hardcore players would prefer the keyboard and mouse setup.  But for a guy like me who is actually perfectly happy even playing vanilla MC and just plays for the basic stuff, the motion controllers seem perfectly fine.

I don't know any other way to put this:  It is glorious.  I haven't played MC for probably about two years, and would probably have never played it again.  This is the perfect VR game.  Totally blown away.

[apocrypha]

Argh stop it. I can't afford one! 

[Venkman]

Yea MC in VR is something else. Even the cheapy pocket edition on the Samsung Gear VR was pretty impressive. Not a keeper since it wasn't the PC edition. But that's what makes me want a Vive now

[Cyrrex]

The locomotion they did with the Vive controllers is quite impressive.  It'll never replace kb/m for sheer precision, and it is a bit tricky to figure out things like walking slowly backwards while laying blocks and things like that, but doable with some practice.  It'll also probably destroy your stomach if you can't handle stuff like that, because they have done nothing to mitigate the walking and sprinting speed (you can use the teleport function instead, but that would get tiresome real quick in this game methinks).  And running down hillsides or jumping from heights....fucking trippy.  They smartly decided to map your movement to the direction you are pointing with one of the controllers (then you just pull the trigger), rather than where you are looking.  It is plainly obvious that this is the perfect way to do movement in any FPS type of game as well, so that bodes well for others.  I think this is one of those things where the best control scheme they can come up with will always be technically inferior to a kb/m setup, but more fun regardless.

The whole thing runs buttery smooth and looks absolutely perfect, which is not something you can say about most of the other VR games as they usually have to sacrifice something to become playable.  Walking around in your first little shack or standing out in a rainstorm...I cannot properly convey how great it is and how amazing it looks.  It is like they are shooting minecraft straight into your brain.  I am also amazed at how easily they have adapted this for VR, and hope it inspires others to do similar things with other mod friendly games.  I will probably have to give some mods a try to see if they actually do work, which I think will require a re-install.

[apocrypha]

I will probably have to give some mods a try to see if they actually do work, which I think will require a re-install.

I would be particularly interested in how any flight and speed buffs feel, e.g. a Mekanism jetpack, or Botania Flugel Tiara w. Sojourners Sash, etc. My money is on 'instant vomit' 

[Cyrrex]

Hell, just going into creative mode and floating around was interesting.  You'll either love it, or throw up is my guess.

[Sky]

The thing that consistently makes me stabby is that people have been randomly making amazing gaming achievements as crappy java mods for so long but 'aaa developers' can't figure out the most rudimentary shit. 

MS is completely retarded if they don't hire this VR mod dude.

I saw some of the teleport stuff and yeah, I'd just do kbm and use the headset for looking around. Too many hotkeys for a controller to run a decent modpack, anyway.

[apocrypha]

Couple of questions occurred to me. Vive-specific, how long is the cable bunch, from PC to HMD? Also, what's the connection to be PC? Do you need a spare DVI port on your graphics card or is it HDMI or something else? And how easy/quick is to take the HMD on & off?

And is there any way to use the Windows UI with it on or do you need to take the HMD off to launch games etc.?

[Cyrrex]

The thing that consistently makes me stabby is that people have been randomly making amazing gaming achievements as crappy java mods for so long but 'aaa developers' can't figure out the most rudimentary shit. 

MS is completely retarded if they don't hire this VR mod dude.

I saw some of the teleport stuff and yeah, I'd just do kbm and use the headset for looking around. Too many hotkeys for a controller to run a decent modpack, anyway.

Pretty much.  And I see what you are saying about the kbm, but I think that would take away much of the fun.  It isn't just looking around, it is also turning around and moving around within your space.  I will probably have to give kbm a trial just to prove it to myself, but I suspect it is going to suck in comparison.  But maybe it goes to prove that the hardcore minecraft players might get bored of this.

[Cyrrex]

Couple of questions occurred to me. Vive-specific, how long is the cable bunch, from PC to HMD? Also, what's the connection to be PC? Do you need a spare DVI port on your graphics card or is it HDMI or something else? And how easy/quick is to take the HMD on & off?

And is there any way to use the Windows UI with it on or do you need to take the HMD off to launch games etc.?

Total cable length...something like 5 meters, maybe 6?  Long enough if you have your PC in reasonable proximity to your play area, but I do sometimes wish it were a meter longer.  Or even several meters longer if I ever figure out a clever way to tether it to my ceiling, but that is probably not happening any time soon.  The connection is HDMI and USB (preferably 3.0, but not required like it is with the Rift).  Taking off the thing is easy as pie.  It has its own Steam VR application that helps you launch games, but there is also a built in virtual desktop to get to your UI.  Also some better third party UIs, but I haven't tried any yet.  I always just take it off when I want to go into windows for any reason.

[apocrypha]

Damn, all of those answers are satisfactory.

I'll just continue repeating "You don't have £700 to spare" over and over again in my head.

[Sky]

Damn, all of those answers are satisfactory.

I'll just continue repeating "You don't have £700 to spare" over and over again in my head.

Sure you do! They'll make more!

If I hadn't just blown $1300 on a new bass I'd probably cave on one 

[Cyrrex]

To elaborate a bit on the desktop UI - the main reason to take it off and go work on your monitor is that the screen door effect makes small text close to illegible and basically looks like crap.  I have no idea if any of the third party apps manage to improve that scenario, but I am fine with it as it is.  I am not using it to replace my monitor for anything besides games, and I think going in with such an expectation will leave you disappointed.  On the other hand, I did grab a VR video player which will let you play traditional, 3D, VR and 360 videos.  I already have a big screen for my projector, but the effect is pretty cool and I would certainly use it to watch regular movies if I had no other access to a big screen.  You can basically make it a fucking huge screen as if you were sitting in a cinema and it looks okay (with screen door effect, but you get used to that sort of thing).  Haven't tried any true 3D or 360 material, but VR porn is kinda interesting....

Tested again last night with my contact lenses out (minus 2 in both eyes.  Or maybe 2.5, suddenly can't remember).  And I'll be damned, but I wasn't imagining things.  Played minecraft and things were crystal clear.  I think some of this will depend on ones age and particular vision issues, but it is a surprising result nonetheless.  If I wore glasses instead of contacts, there is no question that I would take the glasses off instead of trying to fit them under the headset.  YMMV.

Apocrypha, Sky...God gave us two kidneys for a reason, man.

[apocrypha]

FFfuuuckkk. I dreamt that someone sent me a cheque for £900 in the post and I was all like "yay gonna get me a Vive!" and I've just realised it was a dream. Stupid dreams!

Anyway, I'm not bothered about the Windows UI if the HMD is easy to take off & put back on, it was something I'd have wanted if that was a total pain.

VR video eh. How's the porn? 

[Sky]

Oh, man. Didn't even think about the screens being close to my eyes. I've got macroscopic close vision, I could probably see them great without glasses.

[Cyrrex]

Oh, man. Didn't even think about the screens being close to my eyes. I've got macroscopic close vision, I could probably see them great without glasses.

Yeah, I am nearsighted, and while wearing contacts things close up tend to get blurry (a problem that seems to be worsening as I age).  Without contacts I see close things better.  So I guess that is why this works...because technically it is really close to my face.

Anyway, I'm not bothered about the Windows UI if the HMD is easy to take off & put back on, it was something I'd have wanted if that was a total pain.

VR video eh. How's the porn? 

Most of the people who I have seen making complaints about putting on and taking off the headset have really been complaining about their headphones.  For obvious reasons, if you think about it.  The headset itself is nothing fancy, it just straps to your head like a set of paintball goggles or something.

The VR porn...well, for purely scientific reasons I will have to do some more experimentation, naturally.  But it is basically more like POV 3D porn with a splash of VR.  It's not like you are walking around with your controllers in roomscale virtually fisting your favorite porn stars.  But as I type that sentence, I bet someone is coming up with exactly that idea.  Anyway, for what it is...yeah.  Interesting.

[Trippy]

Keep politics in Politics.

[Severian]

Keep politics in Politics.

 
Ah, I don't go there. Never mind then, it's both trivial and dumb anyway.

[apocrypha]

Yeah, I am nearsighted, and while wearing contacts things close up tend to get blurry (a problem that seems to be worsening as I age).  Without contacts I see close things better.  So I guess that is why this works...because technically it is really close to my face.

That's probably because myopia (near- or short-sightedness) is generally caused by the shape of the eyeball being slightly imperfect whilst hyperopia (long- or far-sightedness) as we age is usually caused by weakening of the muscles which focus the lens in the eye. What it means is that when we're short-sighted we reach a point in later life where we develop far-sightedness too, hence the need for bi-/varifocal lenses. It sucks balls.

My wife has started needing varifocals and she hates them. I'm not there yet but probably soon. In fact it's one of the things that's making me think I should try and get in on VR this gen if I can find a way to afford it. If the product cycles do turn out to be in the 5+ year range then I'll be over 50 by the time Vive 2 is out and I may simply be less able to enjoy it as much by then.

[Cyrrex]

I think there will be some incremental improvements....things like wireless headsets perhaps, more comfortable headsets, etc.  But the obvious big leap that comes next is a resolution increase, and that is no small feat.  These things are already dual 1200p monitors that have to be driven at 90 fps each, and the next logical leap is to try to double that.  In other words, two 4k monitors running at 90fps each.  So what's that, a power factor of 4?  8?  A lot.  It's going to be a while, at least 5 years.  Meanwhile, the current technology is totally good enough.  Other than the cost, the biggest problem with this generation is that it is going to take some time for the software to catch up.  There is a shitload of interesting stuff, but most of it is still too short, still in Alpha, and so on.

A lot of people keep saying (here and elsewhere) that the locomotion is the big problem that needs solving, and I am more and more convinced that this is wrong.  Devs are making the short-sighted mistake of assuming that they have to build teleport/sprint style movement into games, and that is holding the technology back.  While I can go along with the idea that they should include these as options, I am equally certain that it is better in the long term for them to also put traditional movement in.  Yes, it makes some people sick, but that is just tough shit for those people.  People prone to motion sickness are an unsolvable problem and you shouldn't be designing the movement around them.  Give them an option, sure, but don't handicap the game for the rest of us that can handle it.  It seems like primarily an old man's problem anyway.  My kids look at me like an idiot if I ask them if they are getting nauseous.  They will be turning more people off with strictly teleport movement than they would if it was strictly traditional.  Stomach issues aside, traditional movement is instantly more enjoyable.  And it seems that you can get used to it.

And then you have something like the Omni.  I don't know how well it will work in practice, because does anyone really want to walk or run around for miles and miles?  Seems like a cool idea, though, and I would rather they head in this direction as opposed to compromising elsewhere.

[apocrypha]

I like the avatar.

[Cyrrex]

Used some steam credits to pick up a game called "Onward".  I may have referred to it in an earlier post someone.  Basically, it is an online multiplayer shooter.  Basic 4v4, capture the objective type thing.  It is considered a Mil-Sim, so more along the lines of Arma or something like that in terms of realism factor.  What is interesting about the game is that it 100% proves that the VR FPS multiplayer shooter thing can be done (which means there is no reason the singleplayer version won't also work just fine).  There is no teleporting at all, it is all done via d-pad on the left controller.  And while it takes some time to get used to controlling the movement, they definitely have the right idea here.  I won't go into detail about how to control stuff, but it works well.  Nothing is taken for granted here...if you want to reload, you have to eject or pull out the magazine, grab a new magazine from your chest harness and shove it in, pull back and release the bolt, etc.  You aim with both hands (or well, you should), just like you would if you were holding a rifle IRL.  It manages to be pretty convincing, and the haptic feedback is excellent.  The learning curve her is steep.

The graphics themselves are janky and unpolished, and sometimes your teammates move in unnatural ways.  Still Early Access, but I wound't expect them to do much more than smooth things out a bit.  I understand they want to go for realism, but I actually think this tech works better with colorful, cartoony stuff due to the screen door and resolution limitations.

Anyhow.  I won't draw any conclusions on it yet, but for two hours last night I was totally sucked in.  Way more intense and realistic than any shooter I have played before.  Immersive to a ridiculous degree.  Did I say intense?  I basically couldn't sleep last night.  I don't know if this particular game will have any legs with me or other Vive users, but there is now no doubt in my mind now of what is possible and that Valve are going to come up with something in the shooter genre and it will be the Best Thing Ever.

[Bunk]

Couple news items from Oculus' conference: Touch pre-orders start Monday, with delivery for Dec 6. $199 USD with an extra sensor.

Also, Asynchronous Time Warp or some such thing. Basically, an SDK update that allowed them to drop the min reqs to a 960 and an i3.

[Cyrrex]

One part of me wants to see Oculus pay a high price for their dickish business practices, but a bigger part is hopeful that their success will keep VR moving ahead.  Better for everyone if there is more success going around.  Also, I don't know how Asynchronous time Warp works, but the Vive uses "reprojection" which has a similar effect...it is basically frame interpolation.  If the system detects that you are not running at 90 FPS, it will drop down to 45 and then do interpolation for the remaining 45, thus keeping things smooth.  It generally works well, but some of the purists bitch about it because it will sometimes fuck up the interpolation.  I haven't noticed.  You can also turn it off it your system is beefy enough.

Have tried a handful of new things over the past couple of weeks.  I mentioned Onward above, but I haven't had time to really dig into it much (steep learning curve).  I keep going back to HordeZ, which is just a wonderful on rails zombie slaughtering game.  Have also tried a few demos in the Horror genre, and let me tell you....Horror in VR is something else entirely.  I don't even really love the genre (basically because I am a pussy), but it is like VR was made for that kind of shit.  The same goes for the more psychological thriller stuff.  VR is the perfect medium for mind-fucking you.  I have a game called "A Chair in a Room" where you are basically some kind of mental patient in an institution or something.  So creepy, and so awesome.  I think it could be classified sort of as an "escape the room" game as well.  There are a lot of those kinds of games.

And yesterday, I picked up House of the Dying Sun.  I guess it is traditionally a non-VR game, but it has been converted.  It is a relatively simple pew pew arcadey space combat game.  You are strapped into a fighter and go shoot up the baddies.  Guys, guys, guys....this is life altering stuff.  The effect is so convincing that I don't even know what to say anymore.  I am pretty sure I am going to have to go buy Elite: Dangerous now, as it is suppose to be glorious in VR.

[Bunk]

Elite is quite glorious - though I haven't played in a while because its a massive time-sink and I suck at it.

[apocrypha]

Read a couple of interesting VR-related articles recently.

Here's a 4K VR HMD for $300. Unsurprisingly it has serious issues, not least of which is it's really uncomfortable. But as the article says, "If someone’s made this for $300, surely someone’s going to make something even better for similar before too long."

And then this hands-on with a demo of an in-development VR game, Landfall.

Imagine a tabletop board game with intricate, 3D characters. Now imagine that the characters come to life and run around, but remain just a couple of inches tall, and a 3D world springs to life around them. Also, there are little helicopters zooming overhead, and biped war machines that sometimes drop from the sky onto the tabletop. Look up; you’re inside that 3D world.

Sounds awesome! Of course I still can't afford VR, but the first article gives me hope that it might not be 5+ years until I can.

[Cyrrex]

Really, a 4k VR HMD is not realistic until we advance another couple of GPU generations.  As it is, only the most powerful cards can run it at 1080p, and much of the time that requires some kind of interpolation to keep it at a reasonable FPS.  Anyway, resolution itself is not the biggest negative of the current VR tech.  Screen Door Effect is a bit of an annoyance, and aliasing is for sure a problem.  Better resolution should be a long term goal, naturally, but I would rather they spend their energy working on those other things, as well as simply improving performance out of what we currently have.  And another thing I'd wish for was a better FOV, though I am not sure that is even physically possible with the current nature of the technology.

It kinda begs the question:  why would these guys produce a 300 dollar 4k headset that has no way of being a success when they could have instead come out with a competing HMD at 1080p for say 200 bucks?  The former has virtually no chance of succeeding in the short term, but the latter would tempt a lot of people, even with the issues it apparently has. 

[apocrypha]

It's Chinese manufacturing's way though isn't it? Try to compete at the lower end of any market but pad out your product with features & specs at the expense of quality. Point is that it puts pressure on the market and hopefully will lead to better quality, cheaper offerings before too long. It's happened in pretty much every other segment of tech in recent years. It also says to me that there's a big enough market for it to be worth their while, which is encouraging for the future of VR in the medium term.

[Cyrrex]

Well, once you get into this technology yourself, some of this begins to make more sense.  What you need to understand is this:  If they cannot get the projected image to run at a minimum FPS (which is probably around 75 or thereabouts, but 90 is clearly better), then the VR tech simply doesn't work.  There are some tricks they can use to essentially double the FPS, but then you are still looking at a machine that needs to put out 40 FPS at a minimum at 4K just to get a barely passable experience.  It just isn't realistic yet.  And I am not talking about an argument wear I put on my beret and insist that 90 FPS is better than 30 FPS because of my distinguished tastes are superior to yours.  The stuff literally does not work if you don't hit the minimum. 

So that is why it makes no sense to me.  They should have targeted the lower end, because the PCs can actually run that shit.  That will put pressure on the market, and I have no doubt someone will be working on this as we speak.  And while the Vive is currently the pinnacle experience (at least until the Touch controllers are shipping...) due to the tracking and room scale, there is still a big opportunity out there for the sit-down market.

And speaking of sit-down VR experiences, I bought Elite: Dangerous.  Probably a big mistake.  It looks a bit shitty, but it doesn't matter because it is fucking awesome.  I already have more hours in this after 5 days than I do in any other VR game.  I am also now seriously considering a vid-card upgrade, if only I can find a way to position it with the wife unit. 

[Sky]

I think the point of the Chinese way isn't that it's creating a good experience. It's that it forces things to innovate at a faster pace, while getting a ton of cheap sets out into American hands. Look at the HDTV boom. When I got into it with 'George', I bought a really nice 720p set. There were some 1080i sets on the market, too (but my aim was a pc monitor, so I wanted a high res (for the time) progressive scan set).

The market was pretty thin and very expensive. My first set was on the shelf for $5k (I got it for about $3200, iirc, thanks to Circuit City's math-challenged employee). A couple years later, you began to see really shitty upscaling sets pop up in walmart, just horrible pictures and compatibility. But people bought them up like crazy. It took years of these low end shitty tvs, but eventually the top end got priced better (my last 73" 1080p DLP cost me just over a grand) and the low end walmart garbage is mostly decent spec sets. Just about every low income home has a 1080p LCD set in their living room 13 years after I entered an extremely niche market.

The enthusiast drive the initial experience and will continue to drive the top end of the market, benefitting them with a better experience and lower costs as tech and production spin up. The low end, though, will be what drives overall adoption and it will be a mess for a long time...but people will still love the subpar experience and be happy in ten years when they're finally getting the experience you're getting now.