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f13.net General Forums => Gaming => Topic started by: MrHat on January 06, 2016, 09:44:42 AM



Title: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on January 06, 2016, 09:44:42 AM
I guess we don't have a dedicated thread for this stuff?

Anyways: Oculus (https://www.oculus.com/en-us/) has their preorders going up in 15 mins (8am WST).

Vive announced in December that there was a major breakthrough that they will be revealing at CES this weekend that they will be implementing in all first gen devices.

Some exciting stuff on the way.

(http://i.imgur.com/bBjj6qZ.jpg)

$600, ouch.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on January 06, 2016, 10:18:31 AM
$400 too much for me to give a shit. Also, what happens if you wear glasses?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Goreschach on January 06, 2016, 10:20:33 AM
I guess we don't have a dedicated thread for this stuff?

I was kindof hoping we would just keep it to the star citizen thread.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on January 06, 2016, 10:21:37 AM
Yea fuck that. $600 is absurd.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on January 06, 2016, 10:23:37 AM
Try $915 all in Cdn. Fuuuuuuck


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2016, 10:40:33 AM
$400 too much for me to give a shit. Also, what happens if you wear glasses?

Based on the Devkit we have here, you're fucked and get the lenses or the arms pressed into your face, depending on how you adjust the straps.

Like the industry's attitude on broadband internet: Too bad, so sad, you're excluded.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on January 06, 2016, 10:45:35 AM
From the reviews I've heard, they've improved the interior room somewhat to account for glasses. Tried getting an actual chance to prove that at PAX this year, lol yeah, that didn't happen.

I used the Dev Kit mk2 for a while, it wasn't perfectly comfortable, but I could wear my glasses with it. I have a relatively minor astigmatism though, and was able to use it without my glasses just fine.




Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on January 06, 2016, 10:48:05 AM
Who really wants to play with these first gen "janky" and super expensive devices on limited games with questionable performances? Wake me up in three years or so.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Gimfain on January 06, 2016, 11:02:31 AM
€700 before shipping costs for me.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on January 06, 2016, 11:04:42 AM
Who really wants to play with these first gen "janky" and super expensive devices on limited games with questionable performances? Wake me up in three years or so.

This is my view, plus a dose of Schild's cynicism. I also wear glasses, I fully expect 1st gen devices to be overly expensive, uncomfortable and very quickly superseded if VR is more successful than 3D TVs were/are.

Also, no need to put janky in quotes. It's a real word here on f13.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Lucas on January 06, 2016, 11:13:10 AM
Exactly, no way I'm going to purchase a "v1" of this at that price.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Baldrake on January 06, 2016, 11:18:51 AM
I just pre-ordered mine. Disappointingly expensive. And that price doesn't include the Touch sensors that do hand-tracking.

We have the DK1 and DK2. Some people put them on with their glasses and it's ok. I personally take my glasses off. I'm not sure this is as big a deal as people think.

edit: I'm not sure I consider this truly a 1st gen product since they've sold two previous generations already, both of which worked surprisingly well.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on January 06, 2016, 11:34:26 AM
$400 too much for me to give a shit. Also, what happens if you wear glasses?
Depends on how wide the frames are and how far forward the lenses sit on your nose.  My wide frames could just barely squeeze Into the non-production version I tried at GDC 2 years ago but the lenses were pushed into my face.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Lucas on January 06, 2016, 11:43:04 AM
Also, but that's a personal opinion, I would rather save a little more (considering that you have to add shipping and tax) and purchase a GTX 980ti on Amazon prime.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on January 06, 2016, 11:44:54 AM
Also, but that's a personal opinion, I would rather save a little more (considering that you have to add shipping and tax) and purchase a GTX 980ti on Amazon prime.

980Ti is GREAT. Do that.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Pennilenko on January 06, 2016, 11:48:21 AM
That price point turns me off completely. They can suck my balls.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Lucas on January 06, 2016, 11:50:18 AM
Also, but that's a personal opinion, I would rather save a little more (considering that you have to add shipping and tax) and purchase a GTX 980ti on Amazon prime.

980Ti is GREAT. Do that.

Yeah, it's basically the best long-term purchase (also considering the quality of the product) you can do for your system right now. Actually, I upgraded my PC last April and got a Nvidia 970 (which is performing very well together with the rest of the components, no matter the "3.5GB" debate and whatnot), but it wouldn't go to waste 'cause I would pass it to my father who is going for an upgrade very soon. Anyway, slightly off topic now :)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 06, 2016, 01:10:41 PM
I am not sure I could care any less about this. Until it is ubiquitous, useful and cheap, I will continue to not care.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2016, 01:44:01 PM
As a glasses wearer who is notoriously both cheap and broke, they can eat a bag of VR dicks. Wake me up when I don't need to wear a nerd torture device around my head and can just plug it into the hole in my neck.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Teleku on January 06, 2016, 02:49:08 PM
$400 too much for me to give a shit. Also, what happens if you wear glasses?
Then wear contacts like a civilized human being!


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on January 06, 2016, 02:51:10 PM
If you are very near-sighted contacts make it very difficult to focus that close in.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2016, 03:07:45 PM
I have never warmed to the idea of sticking pieces of plastic directly onto my eyeball.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 06, 2016, 03:23:45 PM
If the screens are close, wouldn't near-sighted folks be fine?

I'm interested at some point, but not launch hardware. And honestly, I'll probably want to play Euro Truck Simulator with it.

And yeah, a 980ti is a far better bang for your buck, my 970 can tear through anything at the 1080p of my tv without heating up. Love it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on January 06, 2016, 04:16:38 PM
If the screens are close, wouldn't near-sighted folks be fine?
For some near-sighted people, if their near-sightedness is the same in both eyes. For most you'll still need to be able to adjust the "focus" for each eye independently like the diopter adjustment that better binoculars have.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on January 06, 2016, 04:22:50 PM
I have never warmed to the idea of sticking pieces of plastic directly onto my eyeball.
It's a valid concern. You do get used to poking your eye over time, though. They also usually show you, when they are teaching you how to put them in and take them out, that the whites of your eyes have no nerve endings so in beginning you can learn by putting the lens mostly on the whites of your eyes and then sliding them up to cover your cornea and then doing the reverse when taking them off. There's less risk you touch your cornea with your fingers when you do it that way.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Malakili on January 06, 2016, 04:31:28 PM
The question I still have is whether or not the direction adds anything interesting when it comes to actually playing games. I'm sure it's a cool experience and novelty, but at the end of the day I don't know that this is really how I want to be playing games all the time.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Kail on January 06, 2016, 04:44:38 PM
Like 90% of the VR specific stuff I've seen is total garbage, like Paradise Island (http://store.steampowered.com/app/400250/) type stuff.  LIVE the EXPERIENCE of IMMERSION in a MAGICAL WORLD where THERE IS NO GAMEPLAY because IMMERSION and VIRTUAL EXPERIENCE SIMULATION WONDER WORLD DREAMS MAGICAL FANTASY hOPE PoSSiBILitY lOvE BeLiEeeeEEeEeEEeeVe

If they want me to give a shit, they need to put out something that merits spending $900 on a gimmick.  Otherwise this is going to be another Kinect.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Nija on January 06, 2016, 04:51:44 PM
Who really wants to play with these first gen "janky" and super expensive devices on limited games with questionable performances? Wake me up in three years or so.

I'm with you, Falc. Someone write down this date.

V1 hardware is for the birds. The big story here, in my opinion, is that their own controllers are NOT included. Set sail for terrible, fragmented controller schemes since they can't guarantee adoption of anything the put out.

I'll also take a guess at the price of the controller - $119.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Viin on January 06, 2016, 05:02:29 PM
Supposedly these are awesome with Elite?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 06, 2016, 05:22:23 PM
I am going to wait to try it for the first time with Star Citizen :rimshot:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rasix on January 06, 2016, 05:30:25 PM
I really don't want to be even less aware of my surroundings while gaming.  

This is dumb and expensive.  It's the 3D TV of gaming.  Although, I suppose if it becomes cheap enough (really cheap), I might try one some day.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: ezrast on January 06, 2016, 05:48:54 PM
It's the motion controls of output.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on January 06, 2016, 05:49:20 PM
The only game I would get a VR set for right now would be Euro Truck Simulator, because it's slow enough to allow me to focus on sightseeing while "playing", and because I always dreamt to be a truck driver. I doubt the device is mature enough to make real games actually fun to play beside the initial WOW! factor. Or without needing an excessive money investment to beef up your computer on top of the 600$.

I am not against these things. I am looking forward to a future full of them. In fact, I am happy some people with extra money are doing all the early testing for me.
For Elite Dangerous, I'd rather get the IF tracker at the moment.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 06, 2016, 10:16:36 PM
As someone who was into the nvidia 3d vision thing (doesn't seem to work with my mitsu set), there is something beyond a gimmick there. A few games were really, really great with 3d (Tomb Raider Underworld was stunning, in particular). As support got better, of course I upgraded my set. Want to try to see if I can make it work with the 970, as it has a lot of horsepower for 3d.

I'd rather have a good 3d setup with a properly supported game (cough Witcher 3, GTA V) on my big screen than a VR setup, but if the VR setup can deliver it, I'd consider it. Just seems like more than I'd want outside of driving/piloting games. I mean, it would be cool for GTA V 1st person, but I play that in 3rd person...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 06, 2016, 10:17:44 PM
Also, people keep asking me to define the word jank or janky but I don't and it makes them nuts.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Koyasha on January 06, 2016, 10:39:22 PM
The question I still have is whether or not the direction adds anything interesting when it comes to actually playing games. I'm sure it's a cool experience and novelty, but at the end of the day I don't know that this is really how I want to be playing games all the time.
I think VR would add to playing games even if nobody designs anything specifically to take advantage of it.  Just seeing the game as full-view instead of on a screen is a pretty big jump in immersion I think.  I'd like it for that alone.  I'm not sure what games could do to take advantage of VR specifically beyond that, but that on its own would be quite a bit.

And I really hope it's not just first-person games that take advantage of it.  Yes, it helps a lot for first-person immersion, but it'd also be cool in third person games.  I don't mind having a floating point of view and I do really like third person view games like Mass Effect or playing Elder Scrolls games in 3rd person where I can see my character, etc.

If I can afford one, once they're out, there are reviews about which seems highest quality and such, and it doesn't require more than my computer has, I'll definitely get one.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on January 07, 2016, 03:18:38 AM
Personally I'd love to try Minecraft in full VR. Heavily modded MC is already very immersive for me, and I suspect that in VR it'd be a pretty epic experience. And my current PC should have the oomph for it, although a video card update might be needed at some point.

But at nearly 1000 euros including controllers and the ridiculously overpriced postage they've gone with to Europe? Haha, that's so far away from my upper estimates of what I would have considered paying that I've now just completely dismissed the idea for the forseeable future.

I think anyone who's been developing games for VR over the last few years is probably crying into their cornflakes this morning and polishing up their CV.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: jth on January 07, 2016, 05:57:15 AM
In theory I'm interested in these, at least once the prices go down, but as far as I know none of the first generation consumer kits will have diopter adjustments so sadly they are not very usable for me.

Last year I had cataract surgery for both eyes (at age 42, unlucky genetics) and have monofocal IOL's, so my eyes have fixed focus. Somehow I don't think these sets will really work with progressive lenses, so I would have to get custom glasses just for this, no thanks.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: KallDrexx on January 07, 2016, 07:30:34 AM
I think VR would add to playing games even if nobody designs anything specifically to take advantage of it.  Just seeing the game as full-view instead of on a screen is a pretty big jump in immersion I think.  I'd like it for that alone.  I'm not sure what games could do to take advantage of VR specifically beyond that, but that on its own would be quite a bit.

The problem is that games have to specifically take advantage of VR for them to work.  If you put just any old FPS into OR you will get motion sickness, guaranteed (especially if you strafe, that will really fuck your stomach over).  There's a difference between a "full view screen" and "2 screens that move with your head and are only a few inches from your eyes" in how that will work with most games.  You are really going to need games that are designed around the VR experience to keep the experience smooth.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 07, 2016, 09:21:04 AM
Personally I'd love to try Minecraft in full VR. Heavily modded MC is already very immersive for me, and I suspect that in VR it'd be a pretty epic experience. And my current PC should have the oomph for it, although a video card update might be needed at some point.
Damn you.

edit: quick reading shows the java version (and all our lovely mods) will not be officially supported. There is a mod, but I wonder if MS will knock it down, given their recent shenanigans with Win10 pushing/nagware/stealth install and Office registration (bye bye OEM/per machine licensing).


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 09:42:59 AM
You need a PC with a recent broad well or skylake core i5 and a 980 TI on top of that. Min spec is a rig that can drive two 1080p screens at 90 Hz.

So we're at 2,500 to 3,000 for the full VR experience if you have to start from scratch.

The Wii had the advantage that it was cheap and so people could try out the novelty risk free. No one except the extreme hard core will spend 3,000 on something that still has no clear cut use case or benefit


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 09:44:51 AM
Pricing it at that price point basically killed any momentum Oculus VR had. €300 yes, €700 no fucking chance


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MisterNoisy on January 07, 2016, 10:09:02 AM
You need a PC with a recent broad well or skylake core i5 and a 980 TI on top of that. Min spec is a rig that can drive two 1080p screens at 90 Hz.

So we're at 2,500 to 3,000 for the full VR experience if you have to start from scratch.

The Wii had the advantage that it was cheap and so people could try out the novelty risk free. No one except the extreme hard core will spend 3,000 on something that still has no clear cut use case or benefit

I think I've read that a GTX970 or equivalent is the base spec - basically anything that can push 9K or better on FireStrike, which is still a pretty pricey box.  For me, I'd rather spend the $600 asking on a new Pascal/Polaris GPU when those come out, though.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on January 07, 2016, 10:31:24 AM
Damn you.

edit: quick reading shows the java version (and all our lovely mods) will not be officially supported. There is a mod, but I wonder if MS will knock it down, given their recent shenanigans with Win10 pushing/nagware/stealth install and Office registration (bye bye OEM/per machine licensing).

I dunno, MS have taken pains to not interfere with the existing modding scene and they seem to be very aware of how easily they could fuck it up. The Win10 version is, so far, no more than a curiosity and only of appeal to the non-modded players. Time will only tell if modding the Win10 version ever becomes possible, but without mods it'll never be very popular.

Either way I think VR modded Minecraft will become a thing, unless VR dies on its feet this year because of the costs.

If they were launching the Oculus Rift in a time of global economic prosperity when the idea of more luxury entertainment goods wasn't such a pipe dream for most of us I could understand it. But wages are stagnating, productivity is collapsing, many national economies look set for another round of severe crashes as a result of austerity and unregulated financial speculation, etc. It's a really, really bad time to put huge price tags on consumer goods.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on January 07, 2016, 12:18:13 PM
Valve/HTC Vive instead? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLy1fXbGobc) It will let you see people and things in the room behind the screen if you so prefer. Wish we knew the price of that. Coming in April.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 12:38:28 PM
I think I've read that a GTX970 or equivalent is the base spec - basically anything that can push 9K or better on FireStrike, which is still a pretty pricey box.  For me, I'd rather spend the $600 asking on a new Pascal/Polaris GPU when those come out, though.

I'm going by the system requirements for the HTC/Valve Vive. Firstly because Valve so far has been pretty open about their product and more importantly because its the only VR headset so far where people don't complain about motion sickness or headaches. Even people that got sick using the Oculus or Morpheus don't seem to get those issues with the Vive.

Valve says that the minimum specs are a PC that can drive two 1080p displays at 90 Hz each. They also claim that the 90 Hz refresh rate per display is a huge factor why people don't get motion sickness or headaches. I tend to believe them because they actually address the complaint in their marketing/communication and don't just handwave it away like Oculus does with its "it will be fixed in the finished product" approach to issues people had with the dev kits.

Right now this pretty much requires a 980 TI or a Titan and probably more than 4 GB of VRAM. A 970 is pretty much only good for one 1080p display and for 1440p and over a 980 is the recommended card. It also pretty much requires a processor that can handle the memory bandwidth necessary to shovel all of that texture data to the card. So we're looking at a rig with DDR4 memory capabilities which pretty much only leaves haswell and skylake processors.

So a Core i5 Haswell or Skylake processor with DDR 4 memory and a Geforce 980 TI which will set you back another 1,500 to 2,000 dollars depending on what you have and can reuse.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 12:45:05 PM
Given that I own a 3 year old Macbook Pro as my only computer I'd have to pay about $3,000 for the privilege of enjoying VR. I'd also need a new apartment. My apartment is too small to use a kinect and given how all of the VR suppliers promoted their products - basically putting people in a big empty room and making sure they don't trip over and hurt themselves - means that most people won't have both the money and the space to use VR.

A price I'd probably not be willing to pay even if I'd knew what games were planned and knew they were awesome.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 07, 2016, 01:56:01 PM
Pricing it at that price point basically killed any momentum Oculus VR had. €300 yes, €700 no fucking chance
Except that they're selling like hotcakes and I imagine the devs will want the brakes on somewhat on it as it's still early in the game and they want to ease production issues and temper mainstream reaction to the paucity of release title compatibility. Let the rich kids play with the toys and in a few years the rest of us reap the rewards, same as every technology push. I don't think the pricing is at all out of line for this, in fact it would be silly to charge less and leave the money on the table.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 03:01:46 PM
We're living in a world where people pay $10,000 for virtual spaceships in a game that isn't finished. I'm not saying they won't sell any of them. Given that limited preorders are a marketing staple though to make it seem as if more people are interested than there might be I won't necessarily agree that they're selling like hot cakes though.

We don't know how many preorders were actually available and how many people really paid the $599 for it. The hard core crowd will buy it of course and the crowd that has too much money.

VR won't be a success though if you only get they early adopter and enthusiast crowd even if it's 100,000 people. I'm not optimistic though that the general public will fork over $599 for what is essentially a novelty you need a beefed up PC for. As I said I could see it taking off for $399, even given the hardware specs necessary, not for $599 though.

Even many enthusiasts were being cautious about VR and were waiting for a price announcement before they'd make a decision. Charging people the equivalent of a 980TI though might make this a tough sell without a killer app. VR continues to be a solution looking for a problem and the current price doesn't help at all.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 07, 2016, 03:37:24 PM
Oops, forgot who I was replying to for a second there.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 03:56:35 PM
What do you mean?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 05:02:39 PM
OK maybe the early adopter crowd is profitable enough for Oculus to milk them. After all you usually harge the highest price you can get away with.

What's the endgame though?

There's no killer use case for gaming. There's no killer use case for entertainment. The closed off opaque nature makes those VR headsets unsuitable for professional augmented reality application (Hololens would be a better fit for that). All we have is a set of highly curated and manufactured by marketing experiences and a lot of promises of "awesome content".

None of the players can subsidize the hardware because they don't have a platform only a peripheral and so they can't offset initial losses on HW with licensing fees or SW sales. None of the players have a platform and so they can't even control what type of SW gets created and for what system making it so they are entirely dependent on developer goodwill for a system that has no customer base.

On top of that we're on the brink of yet another format war with three companies vying for the same set of customers.

So what's the plan? Build it and wait if or when developers figure it out? That's a large gamble for the amount of money riding on the success of those systems.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Viin on January 07, 2016, 05:19:06 PM
Training simulations.

Edit: headed to CES tomorrow, so I'll poke around and see if I can try one of the retail units - not likely! Line was huge last year.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Torinak on January 07, 2016, 07:25:47 PM
Training simulations.

Edit: headed to CES tomorrow, so I'll poke around and see if I can try one of the retail units - not likely! Line was huge last year.

Training for what? It has to be a profession where having a bulky opaque box on your head doesn't interfere with the immersion, where you don't need any peripheral vision, and where you don't have any controls or interfaces you can't manipulate by touch only. I've done work on immersive simulators before, and everyone dreamed about head-mounted displays but couldn't make use of them for these reasons (plus the hardware power really wasn't there back then). Piloting, driving, and telepresence surgery were all right out. Missing or incorrect kinesthetic cues make a lot of "obvious" applications not work in practice, as the VR research from the late 90's demonstrated.

Based on what I've read so far, I think this will be almost as successful as Google Glass--a big splash among the more-money-than-sense Silicon Valley crowd, maybe one or two demos that are sexy enough to get the blogosphere excited, and then a big thud shortly thereafter.

If it were a third the price, and every existing game "just worked" with it, then maybe.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 07, 2016, 10:55:37 PM
I don't think it's even the price as much as the compatibility. The main reason I didn't use 3d Vision all the time was compatibility. It was awesome when it worked, but it didn't work a lot (mostly UI elements or devs who cheat, 3d showed a ton of visual hacks and shortcuts).

Jeff K, I mean I forgot you're nuts. It's ok.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 07, 2016, 11:18:08 PM
People talk about the price because that's all they can really talk about. That's because the pricing is the only concrete aspect of the product. Which should be a concern for Oculus.

No one actually knows what this thing is good for except maybe a vague feeling that this might be great. The general public still hasn't been able to experience the system first hand and no one has produced a compelling experience that makes people "get" VR.

The hope for an affordable price was what kept many people invested. In a "I don't really know what this'll be useful for but if its cheap enough I might by it" kind of sense.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on January 08, 2016, 01:16:53 AM
Cost is one thing...and it will be a problem for most people, undoubtedly.

Still, the thing that deflates my boner is the fact that only specifically designed games will work for it.  That makes it basically Kinect 3.0.  If I could plug it in and walk around Skyrim, load up a bit of GTA5 or play a round of (insert shooter name here), I would probably buy one sooner rather than later.  Could you imagine something like MSG5 for something like this?  Sounds like we are still many years away from this.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on January 08, 2016, 09:29:50 AM
There's no killer use case for entertainment.

Porn.

I'm not kidding, we're talking whole different ballgame levels.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Baldrake on January 08, 2016, 09:46:36 AM
Porn.
Engadget of all places had a piece (http://www.engadget.com/2015/12/07/kink-coms-vr-porn-experiment-is-a-lesson-in-extreme-anatomy/) about this just before Christmas.

Some parts of the article engaged my gag reflex, I'm afraid, but Bunk seems to have nailed one major application.

(Oh, and obviously that link is NSFW.)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: luckton on January 08, 2016, 10:27:38 AM
Well, for those handful that are in the market for an Oculus and a new computer, Alienware has your back. (http://www.techspot.com/news/63410-alienware-reveals-money-saving-oculus-bundle-world-first.html?utm_content=buffer197d1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer) They claim that the bundle their offering saves you $200 as opposed to buying the items separately.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 08, 2016, 10:43:07 AM
$1200 for an X51 with a GeForce 970. Yeah I'll pass on that.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 08, 2016, 11:14:22 AM
Just tell them you know it when you see it  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on January 08, 2016, 12:06:19 PM
VR has ONE killer implementation, but it will never be used because of the low tech savvy among its audience. Visualization and Pre-construction experience of spaces or experience of spaces you'll never have a chance to visit. That's about it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on January 08, 2016, 01:25:35 PM
600 dollars is, quite frankly, a bit less than the initial price I was expecting. This phone in my pocket right now cost nearly that much, and it's not even top of the line.

VR might be the must have device for sim enthusiasts (no, not the Sims, dammit). You either get into flght and space and, I guess, trucking and rail sims in a big way, or you don't, but if you do the ability to look around your virtual cockpit is an orgasmic experience (especially if it's a porn sim, now that I think about it).

Thing is, I'm not certain there are enough of us around to make this particular product a success, and I won't be surprised if it goes the way of 3D after all.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on January 08, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
The problems with VR in a sim experience are multiple.

1) Your controls aren't simulated, because you have no tactile feedback

2) If you build a cockpit for that tactile feedback:
  a) you don't need the damn goggles
  b) if you use the goggles you don't get the hand-eye coordination because your hands don't show-up in VR.

3) Seated applications are the good sim applications. Walking/ running/ lifting/ whatever physical interactions you might have are all gamified so it's not a real sim of an experience.

And that's just off the top of my head with no research.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Ginaz on January 08, 2016, 03:50:36 PM
Just like everything else tech related, I'll let the "early adopters" aka alpha/beta testers take the plunge first and wait for the price to drop by at least half before I even think about buying.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on January 08, 2016, 03:55:27 PM
Attempts at VR without tactile feedback AND complete sensory immersion are just baby steps on a very long fucking road. It's tech wankery.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: 01101010 on January 08, 2016, 05:37:00 PM
Attempts at VR without tactile feedback AND complete sensory immersion are just baby steps on a very long fucking road. It's tech wankery.

I want to see the military applications for this tech.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on January 08, 2016, 08:53:23 PM
Almost fucking zero, honestly. Drone piloting maybe?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Kail on January 08, 2016, 11:58:51 PM
Almost fucking zero, honestly. Drone piloting maybe?

Yeah, in terms of practical applications it's pretty hard to sell it since it's more restrictive than a screen.  You're blocking out more information (the surroundings of the operator) than you're generating (depth, maybe, for some cases).  It's more a game thing than a practical tool, the only thing it brings to the table is a sense of virtual presence which doesn't have a massive amount of utility outside maybe real estate / construction or travel industries.

Though there are a ton of research projects using the things at the University here.  Research Professors who can't be arsed to learn how send one of these so-called "text messages" are apparently all familiar with the Oculus Rift due to students using them in their masters theses.

Porn.

I'm not kidding, we're talking whole different ballgame levels.

Not to derail things, but how is that possible, technically?  I didn't think there was a way for live action footage of any kind to translate in to a VR display without massively disorienting the viewer.  You need to couple a 360° lens with a binocular camera, somehow recording every possible viewing angle for every possible eye position.

I mean, unless we're just talking about CG boobs, which I'm sure are on the way (if they're not already here) but I'm not sure have the same market force behind them as the old format wars.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on January 09, 2016, 11:47:01 AM


And that's just off the top of my head with no research.

And it shows!

 :why_so_serious:

Pretty much all of us simmers already have a HOTAS setup, plus all keyboard bindings memorized. And we already use such imperfect contraptions as Track IR to simulate head turning -- tactile sensations are really not necessary. We just want to *see.*

So yeah, pretty cool for certain niche users, but I don't think VR will catch on until, 1) lighter weight, and 2) a more seamless transition between showing your actual surroundings, full virtual reality, and an in-between HUD-like overlay, and 3) cheaper actually no, strike that, as I said before I don't think $600 is all that bad -- I would not have been surprised at twice that.

Thinking about it, I suspect the last part of number two above might be the real killer app. Being able to work on real world projects while getting useful 3D overlays on your work could be awful nice as both a training system and an actual job assist.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 09, 2016, 12:44:20 PM
That's the idea behind hololens though.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on January 09, 2016, 03:50:47 PM
Yeah, Augmented reality > VR.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on January 12, 2016, 04:53:34 AM
HTC Vive out in April, confirmed. (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/01/11/htc-vive-pre-order-date/) Price still unknown, until February 29th.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 12, 2016, 09:50:38 AM
We really needed another format war, been too long.

Also, I think the Vive will have a much tougher time since you need to walk all around the room. Some people have limited room, cats may die, etc.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on January 12, 2016, 10:42:33 AM
I think the Vive "supports" walking around the room, but doesn't need you to do it. I think it's just an additional feature, not a mandatory action. There are so many games where on top of not wanting to, that just wouldn't make any kind of sense (anything where you are the driver/pilot for example).


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Goreschach on January 12, 2016, 11:08:46 AM
Did we learn nothing from the motion control fiasco? People play videogames because they want to NOT move around and do shit.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 12, 2016, 11:18:58 AM
The Vive supports sitting down. The "Lighthouse" laser tracking is capable of headtracking a siting person. In that case only one of the two sensors is needed. The two sensors included in the package are also capable of tracking a person in a room "up to 250 sq. ft." So the Vive is good for anything from sitting at a desk up to rooms that are larger than half of my apartment.

The Viive also supports hand tracking via its dual controllers included in the package. So games/apps that show your hands and arm movements are possible. The Vive also has a "see-through" mode that let's you see your immediate surroundings via the integrated camera.

The Oculus right now only includes one infrared sensor for tracking and has a much more limited area. It also doesn't include dual controllers for hand tracking (they'll launch later this year and will cost extra) and it has no "see-through" mode.

Right now the Vive is on paper the better and more complete - but likely also more expensive - package.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 13, 2016, 05:34:35 AM
Oculus CEO Palmer Luckey did an AMa on reddit a few days ago. An AMA that was promptly highjacked by reddit's PC master race subreddit. This AMA is full of little examples as to why a CEO shouldn't handle PR and communication himself/herself. Doesn't Oculus have a PR department or is this a case where the CEO largely ignores their input?

Things like the biggest hurdle to VR adoption being "your crappy PC" or other gems and tidbits rife to be taken out of context or in no need to be taken out of context to hurt the messaging. He seems well meaning but completely out of touch with his potential audience. He should not be in charge of PR and audience engagement.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 13, 2016, 06:05:20 AM
In related news: PC sales numbers lowest since 2007 (http://arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/2016/01/pc-sales-fall-to-lowest-numbers-since-2007/)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Tebonas on January 13, 2016, 07:42:56 AM
Not surprising since there really wasn't that much of a technology jump on the PC sector the last decade. You buy a new PC when the old one breaks down in a way you can't fix with only exchanging parts of the system. Otherwise there still isn't a game out that doesn't work on a slightly older PC as well.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Nija on January 13, 2016, 11:51:27 AM
When the last time anyone actually bought a fully assembled PC? I'm not sure I have ever been a data point for them, other than when I'm buying PCs in bulk for work.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on January 13, 2016, 11:59:30 AM
If we're talking PC gaming, what new release in the last few years has REQUIRED an upgrade? I've had this computer since Xmas 2011 and am still using an Nvidia 460 GTX that I bought with it. I can think of 2 games off the top of my head that I've needed to adjust settings for them to be playable. I see nothing on the horizon that's going to cause me to have to upgrade either the card or the CPU anytime soon.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on January 13, 2016, 12:23:24 PM
Depends on the resolution and quality settings you run at. Many games require a GTX 970 or better to run at 1080p at max or near max settings with an avg FPS of 60.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 13, 2016, 01:44:11 PM
Playable? Eh. Master Race doesn't want to hear 'playable'.  :grin:

I previously had a pair of 460s and they could keep up with pretty much everything up into 2014, they got hot and pulled a lot of juice. The 970 was a really good upgrade, it can play GTA V/Witcher 3 etc full quality no slowdown, without heating up much at all. SWTOR in particular used to beat teh crap out of my 460s (hot potatoes), with the 970s it's also nice and cool.

And I had an aftermarket cooler on the EVGA that was cool as a cuke when 460s were released, and the second was the MSI twin Frozr 2 or w/e, one of the better stock solutions...both were just working too hard for modern games imo.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 14, 2016, 05:20:12 AM
When the last time anyone actually bought a fully assembled PC? I'm not sure I have ever been a data point for them, other than when I'm buying PCs in bulk for work.

I'd happily buy a fully assembled PC. If there'd actualy be suppliers that build PCs of decent quality and price. Right now most vendors either sell you shit or ridiculously overpriced systems or ridiculously overpriced shit. Granted building a rig yourself is not that hard. Building a rig yourself that doesn't sound like a jetliner and doesn't look like it was designed by a five year old with a fondness for LEDs is a lot harder though. Unfortunately you either have places like Dell that ask huge premiums for underpowered PCs just for the privilege of having ridiculous looking cases with aliens on them. Or you have boutique places that charge you a shitload of money for gamer PCs made out of off-the shelf components and where you don't know if it still exists two years from now when you need a warranty replacement.

If I put a price on my personal time that I need to research and select the appropriate parts I need for a PC and the time needed to assemble it, I probably could buy a prebuilt machine instead. If the PC market wasn't so shitty that is.

When a boutique shop sells you $900 worth of stuff for $1600 just because they wrote "gamer PC" on the marketing and tweaked it a little that changes obviously.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Druzil on January 14, 2016, 09:21:45 AM
When the last time anyone actually bought a fully assembled PC? I'm not sure I have ever been a data point for them, other than when I'm buying PCs in bulk for work.

I'd happily buy a fully assembled PC. If there'd actualy be suppliers that build PCs of decent quality and price. Right now most vendors either sell you shit or ridiculously overpriced systems or ridiculously overpriced shit. Granted building a rig yourself is not that hard. Building a rig yourself that doesn't sound like a jetliner and doesn't look like it was designed by a five year old with a fondness for LEDs is a lot harder though. Unfortunately you either have places like Dell that ask huge premiums for underpowered PCs just for the privilege of having ridiculous looking cases with aliens on them. Or you have boutique places that charge you a shitload of money for gamer PCs made out of off-the shelf components and where you don't know if it still exists two years from now when you need a warranty replacement.

If I put a price on my personal time that I need to research and select the appropriate parts I need for a PC and the time needed to assemble it, I probably could buy a prebuilt machine instead. If the PC market wasn't so shitty that is.

When a boutique shop sells you $900 worth of stuff for $1600 just because they wrote "gamer PC" on the marketing and tweaked it a little that changes obviously.

FWIW, I've gotten 4 systems from ibuypower in the last 4 years and I couldn't be happier with them.  You still have to do a little work of waiting for seasonal sale and wading through the deals and coupons but in the end you come out with a nice PC with professional cabling, sound dampening, silent fans and anything else you want to pay for (or not).   On my higher end PC I paid about $130 more than parting and building it myself and on the mid range ones it was under $100 each.  The oldest PC I've almost totally rebuilt at this point as I've upgraded it over time but still, starting with the base totally pre-built was well worth the money over my time.  Anyways, I wont argue the gamer tag thrown on stuff makes the prices crazy, there's certainly plenty of that going on.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on January 14, 2016, 10:40:49 AM
Yes, they are pre-built but the ASUS machines I've bought over the last 4 years have all been pretty decent, certainly better than HP's. The one I bought for me has only needed a replacement video card (the 460 GTX) and two case fans. I haven't upgraded anything else to make it faster. And while I certainly could tweak it to be a little more efficient, I've been pretty pleased with it. I think I spent $500 on the box at Best Buy (Christmas special), another $150 on the card and $25 on the two fans.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on January 14, 2016, 11:46:02 AM
Wanting quality products at little to no profit margin has worked really well for us so far.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on January 14, 2016, 11:49:52 AM
Here's an HTC Vive video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHIiatyuJFI


Here's a PSVR video (RIGS):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBqFcIVNKOQ

My problem right now is every video is "omg it was amazing!". But the videos don't look like they add anything to gaming that isn't already here.  And "you have to see it to believe" will not push the industry at all.


Also, side note, I fucking hate 98% of all casters.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on January 14, 2016, 11:58:10 AM
Oculus CEO Palmer Luckey did an AMa on reddit a few days ago. An AMA that was promptly highjacked by reddit's PC master race subreddit. This AMA is full of little examples as to why a CEO shouldn't handle PR and communication himself/herself. Doesn't Oculus have a PR department or is this a case where the CEO largely ignores their input?

Things like the biggest hurdle to VR adoption being "your crappy PC" or other gems and tidbits rife to be taken out of context or in no need to be taken out of context to hurt the messaging. He seems well meaning but completely out of touch with his potential audience. He should not be in charge of PR and audience engagement.

I have to kind of disagree with you here Jeff, in general I thought he came over really well. The people on the Oculus subreddit are pretty much worshiping the ground he walks on right now. He outright admitted some of the gaffs he'd made in the past (price somewhat north of $350...) and came across as a relatable guy who's really excited about his product.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Raph on January 14, 2016, 06:04:59 PM
Regardless of whether you build or buy, just keep an eye out for the USB chipset. That's the thing that is preventing virtually all laptops from being VR ready, and many desktops. VR requires a specific level of performance out of USB, that's why it's a checklist item on their compatibility tool.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on February 10, 2016, 05:31:17 AM
Oculus reveals first “Oculus Ready” PCs, in bundles starting at $1,499 (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/oculus-reveals-first-oculus-ready-pcs-bundled-starting-at-1499/)

So an "Oculus ready" branded PC bundled with a Rift. Don't be confused by the prices quoted on the Oculus page. The "bundled" quotes are merely discounts for the PCs and don't include the Rift. So the $949 Asus G11CD is actually starting at $1499 USD (for a limited time only) if you include the bundled Rift.

From the article: "At the low end of the line, the ASUS G11CD, Alienware X51 R3, and Dell XPS 8900 SE all barely squeak by with Oculus' recommended specs for the Rift. Those low-end Oculus Ready towers all sport an Nvidia GTX 970 graphics card, 8GB of RAM, and Intel i5 processors and sell for $1,499 to $1,599 when bundled with a Rift. At the high end of the line, the Oculus Ready Alienware Area 51 has an Nvidia GTX 980, 16GB of RAM, and an i7 processor for a whopping $2,549 MSRP (excluding the price of the Rift)"

So the "high end" bundle is actually more than $3000.

This will probably not go over too well with their intended audience.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on February 21, 2016, 09:35:21 AM
HTC Vive will be $799 (http://uploadvr.com/htc-vive-is-799/), shipping 'early April', includes 2 controllers and 2 Lighthouse laser station things.

Strangely the general reactions to this so far seem far less negative than they were for the Oculus price announcement, which was $200 cheaper  :headscratch:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Lucas on February 21, 2016, 02:50:31 PM
Sorry, for that price I would still rather purchase a GTX 980ti  (maybe even a factory overclocked one, at that).

Next!  :grin:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on February 21, 2016, 04:05:23 PM
HTC Vive will be $799 (http://uploadvr.com/htc-vive-is-799/), shipping 'early April', includes 2 controllers and 2 Lighthouse laser station things.

Strangely the general reactions to this so far seem far less negative than they were for the Oculus price announcement, which was $200 cheaper  :headscratch:

The Oculus only comes with an xbox controller.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on February 21, 2016, 04:08:58 PM
On the other end of the spectrum, Samsung will throw in a Gear VR for free if you preorder the S7!

Total package ~$700.00


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on February 21, 2016, 04:12:04 PM
New Samsung galaxy phones come with some magic camera that makes 360° videos that you can later "explore" with a VR set. The future present just blew my mind.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/samsung-galaxy-s7-pre-orders-come-with-free-gear-vr-headset/


EDIT: Mandella beat me to it.

EDIT again: the 360° camera: http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/21/samsung-has-a-360-degree-camera-for-gear-vr-video/


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Lucas on February 21, 2016, 04:21:22 PM
New Samsung galaxy phones come with some magic camera that makes 360° videos that you can later "explore" with a VR set. The future present just blew my mind.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/samsung-galaxy-s7-pre-orders-come-with-free-gear-vr-headset/


EDIT: Mandella beat me to it.

EDIT again: the 360° camera: http://www.engadget.com/2016/02/21/samsung-has-a-360-degree-camera-for-gear-vr-video/

Now this is far more interesting. It might later evolve into something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZReLaWESAE

 :grin:


Bah, yeah...just skimmed through the article, sorry :P


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on February 21, 2016, 04:24:34 PM
One of the guys in our LA office has the Samsung phone that does that with their headset. It's pretty awesome. He went to Fountain Square the night before the last quarterly meeting and took a shot. With the headset on it was the full VR experience of the space with only a phone. Phenomenal.

Ed. Also:

(http://i.imgur.com/GRvGkU7.gif)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on February 21, 2016, 07:00:57 PM
Ya, at this point I think I might just bow out of the Oculus vs. Vive battle and jump on that Galaxy deal since I actually do want a new phone, I miss Android, and free GearVR is enough for me for now.

Someone here want my April Oculus order?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on February 22, 2016, 12:26:18 AM
Ed. Also:

(http://i.imgur.com/GRvGkU7.gif)

She looks like my first wife, who used to wear that exact same expression when I was playing QW.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Koyasha on February 22, 2016, 01:48:36 AM
One of the guys in our LA office has the Samsung phone that does that with their headset. It's pretty awesome. He went to Fountain Square the night before the last quarterly meeting and took a shot. With the headset on it was the full VR experience of the space with only a phone. Phenomenal.

Ed. Also:

(http://i.imgur.com/GRvGkU7.gif)
I'm confused as to how his hand motions are being reflected in the headset; he doesn't seem to be wearing any gloves or anything that would sense what his hands are doing, so how does the game or whatever he's doing recognize what his hands are up to?  Or is he just gesticulating for effect and this is just meant to be funny?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on February 22, 2016, 02:29:35 AM
There's a camera in the device that renders things captured in the real world (like your hands) into the screen. Similarly to how the xBox Kinect works. Not sure the video is authentic, but the technology is there.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on February 22, 2016, 02:42:03 AM
The reasons why no one is quite as aggravated about the Vive are firstly that Oculus came out first and already bore the brunt of the sticker shock, secondly that everyone expected the Vive to be much more than the oculus (estimates were $999) and the retail price is significantly lower than what people expected it to be. Thirdly the Vive includes everything you need. Two controllers, two lighthouse stations and the headset. This makes it a much more capable set than the current Oculus Rift (which only includes an XBox controller and one IR tracker module.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bungee on February 22, 2016, 05:11:26 AM
One of the guys in our LA office has the Samsung phone that does that with their headset. It's pretty awesome. He went to Fountain Square the night before the last quarterly meeting and took a shot. With the headset on it was the full VR experience of the space with only a phone. Phenomenal.

Ed. Also:

I'm confused as to how his hand motions are being reflected in the headset; he doesn't seem to be wearing any gloves or anything that would sense what his hands are doing, so how does the game or whatever he's doing recognize what his hands are up to?  Or is he just gesticulating for effect and this is just meant to be funny?

He has a Leap Motion (https://developer.leapmotion.com/vr-setup) strapped on to the front of the headset.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on February 22, 2016, 10:54:18 AM
One of the guys in our LA office has the Samsung phone that does that with their headset. It's pretty awesome. He went to Fountain Square the night before the last quarterly meeting and took a shot. With the headset on it was the full VR experience of the space with only a phone. Phenomenal.

Ed. Also:

(http://i.imgur.com/GRvGkU7.gif)

And this is why I will be playing with my first headset alone in a room.

So very, very alone.....

 :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on February 22, 2016, 11:26:51 AM
At first I thought he was going to porn.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on February 22, 2016, 11:37:30 AM
I'm not sure it would have been any more embarrassing if he had.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Baldrake on February 22, 2016, 01:17:29 PM
There's a camera in the device that renders things captured in the real world (like your hands) into the screen. Similarly to how the xBox Kinect works. Not sure the video is authentic, but the technology is there.
It's a Leap Motion taped to the front.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on February 23, 2016, 12:43:15 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/y9urE8N5v8FBm/giphy.gif)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on March 04, 2016, 04:30:25 AM
Palmer Luckey did an interview with Shacknews recently. When he was asked if Rift support would eventually come to the Mac he said that it was "is up to Apple". Specifically, "if they ever release a good computer, we will do it,". "You can buy a $6,000 Mac Pro with the top-of-the-line AMD FirePro D700, and it still doesn’t match our recommended specs." (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/oculus-founder-rift-will-come-to-mac-if-apple-ever-release-a-good-computer/).

That guy desperately needs a PR department that handles communication. This is not a flame war on system wars and so his reply should be a bit more mellow than that.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on March 04, 2016, 07:34:16 AM
Yeah, a bad way to state a valid argument.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on March 04, 2016, 07:44:15 AM
Top comment on the article: "He's not wrong but damn can he find a way to make himself sound like an asshole. "


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on March 04, 2016, 08:43:29 AM
Oh he is definitely correct.

No Mac currently meets the recommended specs. Not even the MacPro. Firstly because the MacPro hasn't been updated sinnce 2013 and secondly because the MacPro is intended as a design/CAD workstation and therefore usually uses the AMD FirePro or NVidia Quadro chips. The way he states it makes him indeed sound like a collossal dick though. Whcih is probably fine, some people like that.

The bigger problem is what part of the message sticks with consumers and its the fact that even a $6000 computer is to weak to run Oculus enabled games. Tech specs are lost on most people. Except for enthusiasts and enthusiasts already know if they want to buy a Rift or not and what upgrade they need to meet the specs. The rest sees that even a prohibitively expensive computer is too weak to use Oculus.

The way he should have phrased it is that Apple's design philosopy focuses on other aspects and therefore makes their computers not suited for VR. It says essentially the same without badmouthing a company you might need to work with again in the future (and Apple has the resources to make their own VR system to compete with you). It also doesn't give consumers or reporters any hard data that they could misunderstand.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on March 04, 2016, 08:57:59 AM
See, I took it with a different bent from the uninformed consumer angle.

"Macs are expensive crap that look good but they can't run things."

I suppose which view the uninformed consumer will take depends on a swath of things we can't know.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Pennilenko on March 04, 2016, 11:37:35 AM
I showed my wife his quote and asked her what she thought he was saying. She is the least tech savvy person I know. She thought he was saying that macs are over priced and under powered.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on March 04, 2016, 12:00:15 PM
I like Macs but agree with what he said, and how he said it. Apple should get their shit together and make better hardware.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on March 04, 2016, 12:05:12 PM
She thought he was saying that macs are over priced and under powered.

He was, among other things.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Merusk on March 04, 2016, 12:20:09 PM
I like Macs but agree with what he said, and how he said it. Apple should get their shit together and make better hardware.

But then why would you buy the new model in 2-3 years?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on March 05, 2016, 07:36:46 PM
Yeah, a bad way to state a valid argument.
Jobs effectively used the same tone about Adobe Flash.

Palmer isn't wrong. I think only super die hards disagree. But also, it doesn't matter at all.

If you want high powered VR, you've already got the PC to run it or are waiting for PSVR this Fall.

If you want experimental interesting VR, you've got the Samsung VR and an S6/edge (or now 7) to run it.

And if you just want to dabble for cheap/free, you've got a Cardboard, one of those plastic equivalents, or will wait for the McDonald's Happy Meal from Sweden.

Macs are not, have not, and will not be where interesting things in games happen. The last time Apple was associated with interesting things in games was jailbroken iPhones in 2007 and Apple //e-c in 1986-ish.

Palmer's comments are non-news.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on March 05, 2016, 09:22:19 PM
Apple cares a lot of games even right now, just not on Mac OS X.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on March 06, 2016, 10:24:10 AM
Apple's very happy to make their share on games. But it's only a portion of their iTunes revenue which itself is bucketed into "services" net sales which includes Mac App Store, iBooks, Apple Music, AppleCare, Apple Pay, licensing and "other services" as reported net sales. If games was a material portion of their sales, they'd break it out.

They're hardware and the platforms to service them. Only recently have they started openly talking beyond just hardware in investor calls.

Curious to see where it goes. :-)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on March 06, 2016, 10:58:45 AM
If you've ever been to a WWDC or looked at how the iOS App Store is setup you would know that Apple focuses a lot of attention on iOS games.

Edit: to put it another way, nobody is buying iPhones just to make phone calls -- they are buying them for the apps. Yes Apple makes its money on hardware but the reason why people are buying the hardware is because of the apps.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on March 20, 2016, 06:51:22 AM
If anyone is interested there's a Steam VR Performance Test (http://store.steampowered.com/app/323910/) available now. Almost annoyed that my PC got the green light, makes me want in on this more. Still can't afford this iteration at the moment though, even without needing PC upgrades.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Father mike on March 20, 2016, 09:35:54 AM
That performance test is 4 gigs!  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on March 20, 2016, 09:54:26 AM
Still waiting for java version minecraft support from any of these offerings. It's literally the only application I even care about for VR at this point.

Also, more keyboard+mouse usage, I've seen a lot of controller support. Seems trivial to have a shadow keyboard visible with little code dots you could glue to the corners or something (like measuring counters). Just make that rectangle more transparent.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on March 20, 2016, 11:08:41 AM
It's a crazy wild west out there. Last time both the screen and the control methods were this diverse was arcade machiens  :grin:

I think it's early yet though. I won't buy any of the current setups. I'm also not sure what would be the tipping point though. Wearable AR is really what I want, but to use it on, like, the train or something seems five years out.

If you've ever been to a WWDC or looked at how the iOS App Store is setup you would know that Apple focuses a lot of attention on iOS games.

Edit: to put it another way, nobody is buying iPhones just to make phone calls -- they are buying them for the apps. Yes Apple makes its money on hardware but the reason why people are buying the hardware is because of the apps.

We kinda deviated away from the core debate about Macs and games. My fault for going broad. Apple doesn't not care about iOS games of course. Something like 40% of all uses for iPhones is games, and something like 75% of all games-related app store revenue in the U.S. is on iPhone. And Mac OSX edged past Linux as development platform for choice, a chunk of which I imagine is because of games.

Macs just aren't the go-to platform upon which to play games.

Hence, Oculus' point.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on March 20, 2016, 11:44:04 AM
That performance test is 4 gigs!  :ye_gods:
The download is only 1.9 GB.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on March 20, 2016, 11:52:36 AM
If anyone is interested there's a Steam VR Performance Test (http://store.steampowered.com/app/323910/) available now. Almost annoyed that my PC got the green light, makes me want in on this more. Still can't afford this iteration at the moment though, even without needing PC upgrades.
Results on my non-OC'd gaming PC


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on March 20, 2016, 12:09:29 PM
Yeah that's pretty much exactly what mine looked like, same graphics card, Core i7-6700.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on March 20, 2016, 12:26:15 PM
Ditto, same 970 with a Core i5-2500k. All but the longer flatline in the middle section are just slightly not flat on mine, which is probably where the old cpu and mobo ever so slightly impact things. Otherwise identical.

Turns out good minecraft rigs are good for VR  :grin:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Torinak on March 20, 2016, 06:18:37 PM
Ditto, same 970 with a Core i5-2500k. All but the longer flatline in the middle section are just slightly not flat on mine, which is probably where the old cpu and mobo ever so slightly impact things. Otherwise identical.

Turns out good minecraft rigs are good for VR  :grin:

It's too bad that hands-on reviews of Minecraft on the Oculus Rift are mixed, and that's on the version with fairly major VR-specific changes. That it has to get at least 90 fps steady for a "minimally OK" VR experience means that pretty much no modded versions will work, if there's even ever Java support (my supposedly "VR ready" rig of an I7-2600 at 3.7GHz and a GTX970 has problems keeping above 30-40 fps for decent bases on any real modpack, and large bases can drop framerates below 20-30). Issues with nausea, the UI, and the crappy control schemes are apparent in the reviews where they played for more than a couple of minutes; I can't find it now but one reviewer was only able to play it for more than short intervals by switching it to the "virtual big screen" mode where the normal 2D view is projected on what looks like a big screen in front of your face.

Facebook's recently announced push on "social features" means that the Oculus Rift may end up being a non-starter, just as many people (like Notch) feared.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on March 21, 2016, 06:09:57 AM
Well there's 2 options for VR Minecraft - wait and hope that the Windows 10 version matures beyond it's current iteration as 'mobile Minecraft on Windows' and grows to include modded support, or rely on 3rd party mods like Minecrift. Either possibility is a long, long way from being a reality any time soon.

And yeah, controls would be a huge issue for a fully modded MC pack in VR, it's hard enough choosing which keys not to have bound to avoid conflicts as it is, without being limited by the lack of an easily visible keyboard. I do like the idea of a virtual keyboard though and wonder if anyone's working on such a thing.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on March 21, 2016, 09:34:51 AM
It's too bad that hands-on reviews of Minecraft on the Oculus Rift are mixed, and that's on the version with fairly major VR-specific changes. That it has to get at least 90 fps steady for a "minimally OK" VR experience means that pretty much no modded versions will work, if there's even ever Java support (my supposedly "VR ready" rig of an I7-2600 at 3.7GHz and a GTX970 has problems keeping above 30-40 fps for decent bases on any real modpack, and large bases can drop framerates below 20-30). Issues with nausea, the UI, and the crappy control schemes are apparent in the reviews where they played for more than a couple of minutes; I can't find it now but one reviewer was only able to play it for more than short intervals by switching it to the "virtual big screen" mode where the normal 2D view is projected on what looks like a big screen in front of your face.
That's all the same stuff that was said when nvidia's 3dvision came out. Some people just can't handle the perspective, a few of my friends simply couldn't wear the glasses while I played. And the UI stuff is a constant hassle, some games supported it amazingly (and integrated it, the UI was /better/ in 3d). I've always had DLP tvs, and I think checkerboard 3d on the physical surface is a bit faster than the other approaches. But it definitely has a large overhead in either doubling the scene or framerate, depending.

Anyway, my point is these aren't new issues.

I'm kind of hoping the Windows 10 version of MC plus Rift fails and there is a strong mod version (one already exists) that becomes the fan favorite. Question is, which hardware will be adopted by the modders.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on March 21, 2016, 10:04:30 AM
We should probably move this to the Minecraft forum. Anyway, in terms of MC performance for VR, 1.8.9/1.9 has some pretty huge performance improvements over 1.7.10 with an entirely new block rendering system, and this week has seen a flurry of 1.9 mod announcements. It'll be interesting to see if large builds in 1.9 modpacks can avoid the FPS drops that you get in 1.7.10 packs.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: dusematic on March 21, 2016, 10:11:19 AM
Let me know when the matrix vr mmo gets released. Looking forward to jacking in and jacking off.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on March 21, 2016, 11:39:53 AM
Of course you are.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on March 28, 2016, 01:42:52 PM
Oculus Rift is shipping (https://www.oculus.com/en-us/blog/oculus-rift-is-shipping/)



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Raph on March 28, 2016, 08:52:04 PM
The test above doesn't measure USB. USB is going to be the weak link for most systems -- the typical mobo chipset doesn't cut it. Use Oculus' own tool to check your system.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MahrinSkel on March 28, 2016, 10:34:28 PM
It also can't deal with a dual-chipset system like my laptop. It insists it has an Intel 4800HD and 0 frames per second, even though I have forced it to use the 870M (and my fan spins up to 'jet engine' mode) and can see that it is getting decent frames per second.

--Dave


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Baldrake on April 01, 2016, 09:26:46 AM
I've played with VR quite a bit, and motion sickness is a complete blocker for me. I'm good for about 10 minutes in a session, and then am feeling seriously ill. I tend toward motion sickness with other activities, so this isn't a complete surprise.

I'm going to be really interested in whether this early work from the Mayo clinic (http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/31/mayo-clinic-vr-sickness/) goes anywhere. The basic idea is to use vibrators to stimulate the vestibular system so your inner ear's perception of movement matches your eye's perception.

And given the date I'm posting, I think it's worthwhile mentioning that the date on the article is March 31.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on April 28, 2016, 03:58:26 PM
Minecraft on the Gear VR is kinda intense.

Just sayin'...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on April 28, 2016, 10:54:08 PM
Is it good enough to make it worth playing vanilla minecraft beyond the initial wow factor?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on April 28, 2016, 11:56:44 PM
Is it good enough to make it worth playing vanilla minecraft beyond the initial wow factor?

I miss my mods, but yes, yes it is, although that initial wow factor is worth the seven bucks in any case.

It really is running smoothly on my S7, and the slight blurriness that plagues "hi-def" games is hardly noticeable while rendering Minecraft's pixelated blocks. You need a controller, of course, and I would suggest sitting in a swivel chair until you get past that early survival horror phase -- although part of my problem is that I'm not used to using a controller for Minecraft so my muscle memory betrays me during crisis. And with one of the movement options (there are two, with room to customize each a bit) you move the direction you look, so be careful at turning your head to check out that cool lava pool you're running by...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on April 29, 2016, 01:24:21 AM
I'm going to die from vitamin D deficiency if I get a VR setup.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bungee on April 29, 2016, 03:20:59 AM
I'm going to die from vitamin D deficiency if I get a VR setup.  :awesome_for_real:

Tanning beds for VR players. Who's with me?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on April 29, 2016, 04:45:33 AM
Then I'd just die from skin cancer instead!


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on May 29, 2016, 11:49:44 AM
I'm going to be really interested in whether this early work from the Mayo clinic (http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/31/mayo-clinic-vr-sickness/) goes anywhere. The basic idea is to use vibrators to stimulate the vestibular system so your inner ear's perception of movement matches your eye's perception.
That may help with the motion sickness (momentum) issue but it doesn't address nausea caused by the depth perception issue:

https://www.quora.com/How-big-an-issue-is-the-nausea-problem-for-Virtual-Reality-products/answer/Steve-Baker-9?share=1


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on May 29, 2016, 02:18:16 PM
I'm sensitive to FoV weirdness, but with a properly set FoV I rarely had issues with the nvidia 3d vision setup. I usually played with a very deep, eh, forget the term. The thing that makes things look more deeperer. Some folks had issues and had to play with it very shallow. Convergence?

Some games were unplayable, though. Not sure what the deal was, always felt like a wonky FoV but could've been other factors I'm unaware of.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on May 30, 2016, 11:03:36 AM
So I've now had the Rift for about a week. Rather than just writing up another generic review, if anyone has any specific questions, please feel free to ask.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Malakili on May 30, 2016, 11:08:38 AM
The main question is whether or not it really feels like it adds something to gameplay or if it is just a novelty.  Is this going to change the way I play first person shooters, or am I going to just want to go back to what I'm used to after a few hours of "that's neat."


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on May 30, 2016, 11:49:03 AM
Do you feel like your money was well spent?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on May 30, 2016, 01:11:44 PM
I feel like my money was potentially well spent? The tech demos available are still way more impressive than the games. We'll see what happens when Minecraft releases.

Based on what I've done I see it being really effective for slower paced 1st person games, less so for shooters. Really want to see a good mystery type game for it, but most of whats out there now are horrors - not my thing.

With Eve Valkyrie for example, the 3d on the cockpit is really cool as you are launching, but once the game starts going you kind of forget its there because you are paying attention to the enemy ships, which are too far away to have any sense of depth. That said though, using head tracking to target your missile locks does add an interesting new dimension.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: NiX on June 24, 2016, 02:02:30 PM
I feel like my money was potentially well spent? The tech demos available are still way more impressive than the games. We'll see what happens when Minecraft releases.

Based on what I've done I see it being really effective for slower paced 1st person games, less so for shooters. Really want to see a good mystery type game for it, but most of whats out there now are horrors - not my thing.

With Eve Valkyrie for example, the 3d on the cockpit is really cool as you are launching, but once the game starts going you kind of forget its there because you are paying attention to the enemy ships, which are too far away to have any sense of depth. That said though, using head tracking to target your missile locks does add an interesting new dimension.

Have you had the chance to try a Vive? I have to say that roomscale is where VR shines and shows that it can be more than a gimmick. I've tried a few games sitting down with my Vive, but in most cases it feels like I'm putting in more effort for very little gain. I'd highly recommend any Rift owner seriously consider getting Touch once it comes out.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on August 16, 2016, 06:26:51 PM
This may come across as a bit of a duh statement, but Minecraft should have launched with the Rift.

Holy crap is that cool. I played for about half an hour today, and I was quite impressed. It's still only for the Windows 10 edition, but supposedly that will soon be on feature parity/merging with the Java version.

The whole scale of the game feels different because the blocks are literally 3 x 3 feet each. They didn't do teleporting, or any of that crap. Basically, your body turns with your head, but you can use the thumbstick to turn in jump increments as well. It sounded bad, but in practice, I found I did most of my turning naturally by just looking, only using he stick when I needed to go 180 degrees. The click turning keeps the nausea to a minimum, and lets you reorient so that you don't wrap yourself in the cable. That said, I was still facing completely away from my desk when I took the headset off.

The menu/inventory interfaces pop up on a flat plane in front of you, and take a little getting used to because fine aiming with your head isn't as smooth as using a mouse.

I am very much dreading my first creeper.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on August 17, 2016, 12:17:58 AM
If the win10 version ever does get actual mod support, and if the VR hardware ever comes down in price to vaguely within my reach then I'll probably just abandon life in the Real World and eke out my remaining years building fantastical follies in virtual space until my emaciated corpse is found, VR helmet still strapped to my face.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on August 17, 2016, 12:40:51 AM
Yeah, the biggest downer is that everyone I know playing MC is of course playing the full version. I'm hoping they merge enough that I can go in to that existing Realm via Oculus.

Played a little more. Doing the standard walk backwards and putting blocks at your feet to make a bridge is a little more work when you have to physically tilt your head straight down.

It seems pretty well designed as far as VR sickness goes, I've been able to play close to an hour at a time with little or no issue so far.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on August 17, 2016, 05:45:31 AM
It seems pretty well designed as far as VR sickness goes, I've been able to play close to an hour at a time with little or no issue so far.

Cool. I suspect that'd change with mods and high speed movement and jetpacks and concussion creepers.  :grin:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on August 17, 2016, 09:53:43 AM
I used some anamorphic 3D glasses with Minecraft and that is a load of horseshit.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 17, 2016, 10:23:00 AM
Wish opengl worked with nvidia's 3d vision.

But yeah, if they finally get vr working with 'real' minecraft.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on August 17, 2016, 12:33:55 PM


I am very much dreading my first creeper.

Spiders. And I don't even have arachnophobia, but the damn spiders man. They can get under your field of view, and the sounds they make...

*Shudder*


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 17, 2016, 01:21:44 PM
Spiders. And I don't even have arachnophobia, but the damn spiders man. They can get under your field of view, and the sounds they make...

*Shudder*
And again, better with mods. Shader mod makes spiders in a cave creepy as hell.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3667682/minecraft/2014-10-09_18.05.43.jpg)

(also, a torch in hand casting light is awesome)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on August 23, 2016, 12:35:21 AM
Bunk, I can't remember if you've got a Rift or a Vive? Is there any way of typing in-game? Can you enter console commands?

I know that the Win10 Minecraft port has only just got (or is about to get) customisable keyboard bindings, so I'm assuming that in VR you have no way to type. Which basically means modding ain't gonna happen. I run out of keybinds in a full modpack all the time, and without console commands you can't even do Command Blocks.

Also, does VR Minecraft have creative mode? How's the flying feel? Nausea inducing or OK? And the thought of trying to build in creative without being able to search for blocks makes me shudder, let alone the lack of NEI/JEI.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 23, 2016, 09:27:06 AM
Can you do a sitting VR with a keyboard? There should be a VR-enabled keyboard where you can see it in-engine, kind of a mo-cap type thing with wireless positioning units in the keyboard :)

Also, since I found my 3d vision glasses I want to try to get them working with the new tv and stumbled across this...

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/769009/minecraft-in-3d-vision-updated-to-1-8-x/

Guy does opengl wrapper stuff, basically.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on August 23, 2016, 09:33:52 AM
Cool, let us know if you get it working :)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on August 23, 2016, 10:03:27 AM
Wait, you can't use a keyboard with these VR headsets? I'm interested in the immersion factor (once the price comes down) but not in using a controller.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on August 24, 2016, 06:07:30 PM
I've gotten pretty used to the controller, but all the actual aiming is with your head. Currently no keyboard on the rift, but mind you they still haven't shipped the motion controllers. There is creative mode foe mc, but ive barely touched it. Playing survival is a principal thing to mw in mc.

Best app for the  oculus so far is probably virtual desktop, which a guy wrote in his spare time and now has hit it big on steam


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 25, 2016, 09:10:22 AM
Aiming with your head seems not good?

edit: I guess in minecraft where your cursor is glued to the center of the screen it makes some sense.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 09, 2016, 11:40:42 AM
So I just went out and bought an HTC Vive.  Was a bit fiddly to set up, especially when I eventually found out I needed a firmware update on the headset itself before it would track.

First impression:  Shock and Awe.  But I have barely scratched the surface, so I will try not to jump ahead to a final conclusion.  One thing for certain, the movement and tracking of the controllers in 3D space is exquisitely precise.  Amazingly so.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on September 09, 2016, 12:38:01 PM
Post a pic.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 10, 2016, 02:13:30 AM
Been posting here forever, and not one pic.  Not gonna start now!


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Strazos on September 10, 2016, 03:18:08 AM
I too tried the HTV Vive while back in the US at a friend's house, and...it was pretty magical. One of the coolest things I did was play through part of a fairly simple RPG. The acts of physically exploring and looting were great. And the ability to physically block or dodge projectiles was unreal. There's a ton of potential here, and the tech may finally be mature enough to do some great things.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 10, 2016, 04:40:58 AM
Okay, a few more impressions, and like Fox News, I will try to be fair and balanced.  Now that initial setup is out of the way, there are no more problems getting things up and running once the PC is running and you go into Steam VR.  It will basically auto-detect the controllers and headset if they are in range of one of the lighthouses (and the headset has to be woken up).  Then you just put the thing on and go straight into the steam menus and do whatever you want.  It's not a big hassle, is the point.  Anyway, a few comments on some of the noteworthy stuff....

The headset:  Putting 500 grams of plastic, elastic and foam on your head for any length of time and then working up a minor sweat is never going to be totally comfortable.  I doubt anyone will solve this problem any time soon, those other technologies that are cordless and/or having you sitting in your chair the whole time probably have some advantage here.  The cables are annoying and often distracting.  You will get used to it to a degree after a short period of use, but you will be reminded every so often that you are tethered as you try to untangle your feet.  The headset sits okay on your head, but I wouldn't call it a nice fit.  Finding the sweetspot for the lenses is also often an exercise of frustration, which would could probably be fixed somewhat by tightening the whole thing, but that would make it even less comfortable.  The point is, you would wish it was more comfortable than it is.  Some of these problems are simply inherent to the technology, and specifically Vive's technology which has you actually moving around yet tethered at the same time.

The display and graphics:  The different VR techs all advertise their fancy double OLED screens and high resolution running at 90hz and upwards.  What this fails to convey is that you have that shit REALLY close to your face.  It is pixelated and grainy as hell.  You are looking at it through these weird fish goggle lenses.  If you have not tried this tech before, you may have seen videos of other people using it with a helpful monitor along side them showing you the visuals they are seeing.  What you see on the monitor is crisp and clear, but what you see through the headset looks like dogshit in comparison.  That is, if you are only considering the graphical quality on an apples-to-apples level.  ON THE OTHER HAND, what you sacrifice in visual fidelity is more than made up for in the indescribable immersion you get.  Honestly, some of this shit is utterly mind blowing.  The best way I can sum up what you see through the lenses is this:  If you want to see some beautiful scenery and immerse yourself in it, you will not get it here.  I doubt either modern PCs or the headsets can pull that off yet.  What you get instead is a feeling that you are dumped right into the middle of whatever it is you are doing, and they have pulled that off incredibly well.  I want it all to be crisper and clearer, but I think we are years away from that even being possible.

Room Scale (or is it room space? fuckifiknow):  This is one of the things that makes the Vive different.  You put these "lighthouses" up in opposite corners of your space, and the bigger the space you have, the better.  This helps you designate a rectangular play space that the Vive tracks and lets you know when you get too close to the border.  It is not so much a way to let you move across significant distances, as you have a teleport function to do that for you.  Instead, it gives you total freedom of movement within that space where you can duck, dodge, sidestep, move forward and back and otherwise adjust your position as needed.  Issues with the cords aside, it is fantastic.  Utterly game changing.  The only negative is that you are very often aware of the virtual and real walls, but it is well worth the trade off.  The first couple of sword-fights you have in your space...you will say to yourself "this is what I have been waiting my whole goddamned life for".  The tracking of the headset and the controllers, which is what the lighthouses are actually doing, is totally perfect.

The controllers:  You can't really talk about the controllers without considering the role the lighthouses play, but the combination of these two things is easily the best part about the Vive.  It is uncanny how well these controllers work, and how well they are tracked.  In some applications, you hold it up in front of your face and it is a perfectly represented virtual controller, with pixel-perfect movement tracking.  In a game, it turns into a sword, or a shield, or a gun, and your brain is utterly convinced of it.  The haptic feedback...I don't know how to convey it.  When you have a bow-and-arrow and pulling back on the string actually feels like pulling back on a bowstring (minus the weight, but you won't notice), the feedback it conveys is unbelievable.  I'll just say it now, this has got to be the best game input device ever created.  My only wish would be for a second version of the same thing with a more cylindrical and slightly longer shaft, because that would make fancy swordfighting flourishes even awesomer.  But in general, it transitions perfectly from sword and board to bow and arrow, to dual wield pistols, or whatever.  Ingenious.  I feel I could go on forever about how great these things are.

The games:  I only have a few to talk about right now, but some things are already becoming clear already.  Super duper graphics intensive and otherwise AAA games...probably will never work here.  What we will probably see instead are much simpler games that make up for lack of graphics and complexity with immersion.  I feel forced to make a Wii comparison here...Wii worked by simplifying graphics and input and instead tried to immerse you into the experience.  In hindsight, it was shallow as fuck and not at all immersive, which is why many of us look back on it with scorn, or at least a missed opportunity.  The Vive takes the same basic paradigm and multiplies it by 40 billion.  You are THERE, and you are not just waggling your way through stuff with a semi-responsive dildo.  Vanishing Realms is a very simple RPG dungeon crawler.  If you were playing it on your 27 inch monitor with kb/m, it would be fucking horrible and never worth mentioning.  Instead, it totally, totally works.  Give me a dozen more games exactly like this, please.  Space Pirate Trainer is another, a game that has you standing in one spot and shooting down waves of increasingly difficult robot drones.  It is so ridiculously simple and shallow, it would never succeed on any other platform.  But it is tons of fun in short bursts, and demonstrates exactly the kind of game that works well with this technology.  And that is probably good news, because these games must be pretty easy to produce.  I downloaded the Trials of Tatooine as well, because lightsabers.  It is only about 5 minutes long, and it looks like shit.  Again, the concept feels similar to that Kinect nonsense they tried to do a few years ago, but in practice it just works here.  When you ignite the lightsaber and start swooshing it around, it looks and feels amazing.  That feeling of being there makes all the difference, even if the software and design itself isn't terribly good.  This technology seems to lower the bar for what will make a game work and be interesting.  Simple will work, as long as they can put you in the middle of the experience.  I think we will see a lot of old school stuff, and a lot of arcade style games.  A good zombie game would be killer on this thing.

Other things?  It was expensive, but I am not having any remorse so far.  You need space.  You need a powerful PC (though I don't think the games I am playing have been stressing it much yet), and there is a whole lot of cable mess.  There are some virtual desktop apps that I will probably download, but haven't had time for any non-steam stuff yet.  And no, I haven't tried any porn.

I'll answer specific questions if you have them.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Strazos on September 10, 2016, 05:52:49 AM
Just one extra point on Venishing Realms. There's a part with some traps, with a treasure chest in the middle.

I actually got down on the ground so I could "crawl" under the blades, looted the chest, and crawled out. And this is possible because the system can track you so well as to realize that you're low enough to do that.

It's a pretty simple thing, but you could never do that in a normal game unless it was specifically programmed into character movement. Or I could peek around corners or my shield. Or in Pirate Trainer, I could hold my shield to the side (out of field of view) to block flanking shots while shooting stuff in front of me.

It opens up a lot of crazy possibilities. Now they just need to work on the hit detection for melee, and it will be glorious.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 10, 2016, 06:05:24 AM
Yep.

Aaaaaaaaand I just got a zombie game.  HordeZ.  OMG.  Unbelievable.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on September 10, 2016, 08:37:17 AM
That stuff all sounds really cool, assuming they can make it work with real games. I have no interest in playing simple games that are just more immersive because VR. Get this shit working with Skyrim though, and I'm fucking sold.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on September 10, 2016, 09:41:17 AM
Try Ping Pong Waves and Holopoint.

So good.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 10, 2016, 10:32:43 AM
That stuff all sounds really cool, assuming they can make it work with real games. I have no interest in playing simple games that are just more immersive because VR. Get this shit working with Skyrim though, and I'm fucking sold.

Well, two things.  One, there is no reason something like this wouldn't work for Skyrim.  They are going to do a Fallout 4 conversion, which is obviously similar.

Two, you miss the point a little if you skip the simpler games.  The immersion factor and the control interface takes a game that would ordinarily suck, and turn it into something extremely compelling.  Vanishing Realms is the best example I can give of this so far.  It is fantastic, yet ridiculously simplistic.  I am sure there is a bunch of bullshit out there as well, but I haven't run into any of it yet.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Strazos on September 10, 2016, 11:50:51 AM
Or hell, how about that cartoonish game about barbarians invading your castle, and you have to fend them off from a tower with your bow and arrows? The mechanics of the weapon were fantastic. The sense of depth perception needs a little work (for the system in general), but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

Is it a simple game? Yes. It's also still a very young ecosystem - let it mature. If this was the NES, you couldn't expect someone to release Startropics or some other late-gen title as a release game; gotta give time for people to figure out what it's really capable of.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 11, 2016, 01:19:29 AM
Yes, it is exactly that sort of thing that works.  It isn't the kind of thing that will have you come back again and again, but it shows how something simple can be made to work.

It is clear that hack-n-slash, action RPG titles work well with this tech (and possibly totally revolutionizes them).  Maybe just say "adventure" games in general.  FPS shooting works as well, but only where movement can be managed in a non-traditional way (like teleporting or floating between static points).  Remember arcade games like Operation Wolf?  Thing along those lines, only being put right smack in the middle of it.  Honestly, anything where you have to hold a weapon in your hand has the potential to be amazing.  That zombie game I referred to in an earlier post...it is probably going to be pretty shallow and repetitive, but I can't really put into words what the experience is like.  The zombies look real, the guns feel real, and you really do feel like you are in the middle of a zombie swarm.  My flabbers were gasted.

Last night I was playing Vanishing realms.  Got physically tired.  Saw a miner's tent off in the distance, and went to investigate.  Lit his campfire, crawled into his tent and chilled.  Felt like I was really in the tent.  10 out of 10, would camp again.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Strazos on September 11, 2016, 09:37:06 AM
Modern remakes in the vein of Virtua Cop, Time Crisis, or House of the Dead could be amazing. Also, point-and-click style adventures where you need to search rooms for things or otherwise interact with the environment to solve puzzles could be mind-blowing.

Getting back to Vanishing Realms, it does a lot of little things right - I have to actually move my hands to loot items. I can light other torches or candles with the torch I am "carrying" in my hand. I can peek over my shield and talk shit to the skeleton archer as I casually block or dodge his shots.

There's also a really neat rhythm game called Audioshield that's a heck of a lot of fun, and really reinforces how accurate the controls are.

Once I'm back in the US and get set up, I'm definitely going to plunk a lot of cash into a VR setup. I just wish there was some sort of wireless option, because the cord trail is a minor nuisance.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sir T on September 11, 2016, 10:54:49 AM
Here is the question though - how are you going to aim something that you can't feel in your hand, and how is such more effective than using a controller or mouse - keyboard for control?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on September 11, 2016, 11:08:34 AM
The last few posts have all been about the Vive which has controller things.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 11, 2016, 12:54:54 PM
Here is the question though - how are you going to aim something that you can't feel in your hand, and how is such more effective than using a controller or mouse - keyboard for control?

The last few posts have all been about the Vive which has controller things.

Yeah, this isn't some silly shit where you are waving your hands in front of a camera.  Read what I wrote about the controls a few posts back.  They are incredible.  I am not sure they are "more effective" than kbm control...but it is mind blowing how realistic they feel.  If you are hold a gun in the game, your brain will be utterly convinced you are holding a real gun. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Strazos on September 11, 2016, 02:26:37 PM
I'm not sure your aim will technically be better, unless you can legitimately aim (the controllers are pretty darn precise).

However, with the motion tracking, you can theoretically get yourself into weird positions to cheat around corners that are impossible in convention games. And you can do things "off-screen" that cannot be done in normal games.

The controllers really are good. For instance, you can hold a gun, spin it around, and inspect it close-up, and it feels...pretty darn good.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on September 11, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
I just wish there was some sort of wireless option, because the cord trail is a minor nuisance.

I was reading somewhere that some third party was trying to engineer a wireless option, and I had pretty much decided to wait on one before I jumped into the Vive...

Now, dammit, you guys got me tempted again. All I've got to do is move the sofa against a wall and I've got a perfect VR space here in the Media Room...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 12, 2016, 03:06:00 AM
I would be pretty skeptical about someone being able to pull of a convincing wireless option just yet.  The amount of data that has to be sent wireless to a headset, without any lag and at 90fps minimum?  Seems problematic.  I think it is technically possible to do it to an extent, but I bet it would look like butthole.  Anyway, the cable seems a small price to pay for the experience, and sometimes it is no issue at all.

Back to the controls conversation and precision and all that.  You cannot compare this fairly to keyboard and mouse input, it is a totally different paradigm.  Apples to watermelons.  The last thing you want when you play any of these games is a keyboard and mouse (though if the game is originally designed that way for the mass market, that might be different?).  The only thing you miss is a form of locomotion that resembles a control pad/stick input...they can of course do this already with the controller if they want to, but developers tend to find other means of locomotion (teleporting, hover movevement, etc.) because traditional movement via thumbstick or keyboard is what causes the nausea effect you sometimes hear about in VR.  The average brain can't figure it out.  Would be nice if developers gave you both options, but most games right now seem to be designed around it.  I suspect it will be included more commonly as adoption increases.

But sacrificing the locomotion controls and lack of mouse style aiming is so totally worth it.  This zombie game I bought called HordeZ.  It is super simplistic in nature - you stand on something that looks like a hoverboard, and you very slowly (and I mean veeeeeery slow...to avoid the nausea effect) are transported on rails down a pre-determined path, occasionally stopping so that the zombie hordes can come after you.  Imagine being in a dark apartment building corridor.  There is hallway in front of you and hallway behind.  Doors off to either side.  You hover along and have to cover this entire 360 degree space in all 3 dimensions.  Zombies are coming at you.  You pull out your pistols, akimbo style, and prepare to defend yourself as the horde tries to swarm you.  Zombies coming from the left, zombies from the right.  Zombies right in front of you.  Just as you would probably do in the real world, minus the pants-shitting, you deal with this by shooting up targets with one hand right in front of you while simultaneously shooting at things offscreen with your other hand.  Head on a swivel.  Uh oh, too many coming from the left, need to unload both pistols.  Reload.  Swivel.  Shooting shit onscreen and shooting shit offscreen, swivelling and pirouetting the whole time, fully entranced in your macabre dance.  The very idea of being able to address things offscreen, and doing so by holding something in your hand that your brain is convinced is an actual weapon....it is a transcendent experience.  And yes, you can sight down your pistol accurately and pull of a headshot if you want.  This particular game is so rudimentary, so unpolished, and there are so many obvious ways it could be made better, and yet at the same time it has to be the most amazing gaming experience I have ever had.  A game that would be utterly retarded shovelware without the VR and the Vive controllers is instead an extremely convincing zombie slaughter simulator.  It is so realistic that I am having difficulty getting it out of my head.

I am pretty convinced now that this is not a gimmick.  It is going to take some time for the rate of adoption to be significant, because A) the computing power required would still be considered cutting edge and expensive, and B) you need room.  But if you have the means, and are already curious about VR....


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 12, 2016, 04:09:43 AM
I am pretty convinced now that this is not a gimmick.  It is going to take some time for the rate of adoption to be significant, because A) the computing power required would still be considered cutting edge and expensive, and B) you need room.  But if you have the means, and are already curious about VR....

Don't forget C) it's still really fucking expensive (although I guess you covered that in "if you have the means").

I'm interested to know what the take-up has been like, what kind of progress (if any, yet) is being made towards the next gen of the hardware, what the prospects are for price reductions in the medium term, etc. I think the 'very interested, but not until it gets better/cheaper' group is pretty large, but I'm guessing that the current gen needs to be successful enough that the hardware & software devs are prepared to sink the time & money into escorting the payload.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 12, 2016, 04:49:18 AM
Expensive indeed, and that is even if you already have a PC with at least a GTX 970 in it.  That said, I have more than once in my life dropped two grand on a television (I once dropped 3 grand I think) and I have a projector that cost me a grand or so.  I have even done the whole 3D Vision thing with Nvidia's tech.  Nothing, and I mean nothing, compares to this particular technological leap in terms of its initial impact and my first experiences with it.  I've had it for only three days, though, so we'll see.

I'm also curious about the uptake.  On the positive side, there seem to be a lot of software coming out for it, much more than I would have thought at this point.  On the other hand, not much of it is AAA and most of it is pretty short or in Early Access state.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Strazos on September 12, 2016, 05:09:20 AM
If I was back in the US, I would have bought a Vive weeks ago.

Then again, I've spent ~$3k each on a TV, PC, and laptop within the last 2.5 years, so...  :oh_i_see:

Speaking of my laptop...I wonder if I could run a Vive off of it. It has a 980m chipset, and I'll have the space once i move on-base out here... :drill:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Jeff Kelly on September 12, 2016, 05:43:37 AM
The current murmur on the sales channels is that both the Vive and the Oculus are dead in the water now that the pre-order glut has been over and dealt with.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 12, 2016, 06:16:08 AM
Looks kinda hard to get real numbers on anything.  But there sure as hell is a lot of stuff coming out on Steam, at least in alpha form.  More than I would have guessed, considering the likely uptake.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 12, 2016, 06:30:04 AM
"Still in planning stage" for Vive 2 atm according to this piece (http://uploadvr.com/vive-2-planned/). No surprise, I really think VR needs a few good AAA titles for it and a significant price drop before the uptake will be any more than marginal.

It's probably a Catch-22 situation. Uptake won't increase without price drops, which won't happen without higher uptake. That article makes a comparison with console cycles of up to 7 years, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if VR had product cycles of much longer than a year or two.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on September 12, 2016, 09:08:26 AM
If you're worried about price and still want to mess with one: do what I did and buy one to use for a few weeks and then return it. It's consumer electronics, not PC hardware, and usually comes with a 30 day return policy (Microcenter).

It was totally worth it. Everyone that used it was blown away. A few of the games are legit amazing.  That being said, it really does need another revision or two.

My biggest complaint was it's incredibly isolating. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on September 12, 2016, 05:49:00 PM
All of this. The tech is amazing and some of the experiences do a wonderful job. But it's isolating, expensive, and the experiences are inconsistent.

Before we get to AAA investments, there needs to be a real market. And to get there, we need a Wii-era Nintendo: a company that thinks both hardware and software in the same breath.

Who's left that can do that?

For now, these feel like science experiments, only possible because of crowdfunding and retailers scrambling for any semblance of a CE business. That's a good thing, because if people pay, companies will continue to experiment. But I don't see \any of the crazy compromises these things require sustaining.

Doesn't mean I don't want a Vive setup :-)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 12, 2016, 11:45:07 PM
I'm likely to take a real hard look at the budget when Fallout 4 comes out for VR. I think Doom will also be great for it, and I will probably end up getting it just to have another game for it. But Fallout 4 will ensure the setup gets a workout that could potentially head north of 100 hours.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 13, 2016, 12:23:49 AM
Most of the time when I have been playing, both of my older boys have been in the room, so it has actually been the opposite of isolation for us.  That probably messes with immersion a bit sometimes, but a good trade off in general.  But back to being fair and balanced, here's a few negatives:

- The headset it not really comfortable, and there is a sweetspot for keeping things in focus which can be very fiddly
- Longer play sessions leave me feeling...messed up.  Eye strain, I am thinking, something I never experience with a PC or mobile device.
- Similarly, I find that the experiences in general are intense and that I can still feel it back in the "real world".  Like it is leaving some kind of psychological mark or something.
- The above points make me wonder about a big, long AAA experience like Fallout or Skyrim...it might just kill me.  Some people on the internet claim they can use the thing for hours on end with no ill effects, but I am skeptical of those claims.
- Much of the software is either very short and limited, or just previews/prologues of things to come.  Some of those previews looking unbelievably promising, but still...will they actually come to fruition?



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on September 13, 2016, 07:30:42 AM
Do any of you guys who have it wear glasses?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on September 13, 2016, 09:32:04 AM
I do, and its not much of a big deal. I do wear progressives, so things at the bottom of the screen are a bit fuzzy for me. I've been considering getting a cheap pair of non-progressives just for vr. As long as your frames are small, you shouldn't have issues.

Oculus touch controllers are due out around November I believe, so I still have that to look forward to. Still haven't tried anything with hand controls.

I'm really curious about how the FO4 port is going to work - if they come up with a reasonable control scheme for it. Straight up running around in VR via controller is tough on the inner ear. Ten minutes of Ethan Carter left me reeling.

Cyrrex - the whole wonky feeling will get better with time and acclimatization - but don't push it. When you start feeling it, take it off.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 13, 2016, 09:43:43 AM
A little demo called Budget Cuts has me thinking that the stealth genre could be huge with this stuff.  Think old school Metal Gear, hiding around corners, under boxes, ventilation shafts.  Would be amazing.  I actually had a moment of idiocy where I was up in the ceiling crawling around and looking down through a vent hole...kept pushing my head down so that I could stick my head through and get a view of the robot sentries.  I bonked my face on the floor.  I also have to keep reminding myself "don't sit on that chair it's not a real chair".  Haven't sat down on one yet, but it is only a matter of time.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on September 13, 2016, 10:10:12 AM
- The above points make me wonder about a big, long AAA experience like Fallout or Skyrim...it might just kill me.  Some people on the internet claim they can use the thing for hours on end with no ill effects, but I am skeptical of those claims.
I've read in a few places this is dependent on age. Like, the older one is, the more established their physiology is, the less adaptable to the sensory-screwups longterm VR use can cause.

I'll see if I can dig it up, but it makes sense. I dunno how older you are, but I'm of an age that didn't grow up with two smartphones hanging three inches from eyeballs all day :-) After about 15 minutes on even the best systems, I need to take a break. Usually the break is at most half a minute. But that's a far cry from plopping my ass in a chair for a "wait, what the hell time is it?!" marathon RPG or MMO session.

I'm also very curious how FO4 is going to work. Movement in VR is a problem, as discussed here. There's a great stationary bike company that has a compelling solution to it that I've experienced a few times at shows and it works pretty well. There's also this interesting foot-used tilt board that has a sort of hoverboard feel in VR. But even with Vive, best I could hope for in FO4 would be moving around my little living room ingame.

A game built around a cover mechanic though, like the combat parts of ME3 where you can play largely stationary until you need to rush to another cover, that could work ok. But that rush sequence will play havoc on the inner ear unless it's purely a teleporter.

Granted, FO4 has a cover mechanic, but it's not nearly rigid enough for VR imho.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Nija on September 13, 2016, 10:16:19 AM
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/09/13/playstation-vr-demo-disc-has-18-games-in-north-america-8-in-europe

Here's a full list of included game trials:

Allumette
Battlezone
DriveClub VR
Eve: Valkyrie
Gnog
Harmonix Music VR
Headmaster
Here They Lie
Job Simulator
PlayStation VR Worlds
Resident Evil 7 Biohazard - Kitchen Teaser
Rez Infinite
Rigs Mechanized Combat League
Thumper
Tumble VR
Until Dawn: Rush of Blood
Wayward Sky
Within


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: KallDrexx on September 13, 2016, 10:22:07 AM
Here you go, portable VR: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/09/msi-vr-one-backpack-pc-details-specs/


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 14, 2016, 02:48:21 AM
Problem with the backpack solution (other than the obvious ones) is that it doesn't do anything about how to track your movement in space.  Oculus doesn't even have that tech, so the backpack doesn't solve any actual problem.  HTC does have it, but by having staticly placed lighthouses.  So a backpack doesn't solve that one either.  And then even if it did magically let you walk around the real world, how would you see anything?  Interesting idea and something that might eventually become a stop gap solution, but right now it is solving problems that don't yet exist.  Right now it seems like an expensive way to put a 15 pound brick on your back for the sake of untethering yourself.  Am I missing something?

- The above points make me wonder about a big, long AAA experience like Fallout or Skyrim...it might just kill me.  Some people on the internet claim they can use the thing for hours on end with no ill effects, but I am skeptical of those claims.
I've read in a few places this is dependent on age. Like, the older one is, the more established their physiology is, the less adaptable to the sensory-screwups longterm VR use can cause.

I'll see if I can dig it up, but it makes sense. I dunno how older you are, but I'm of an age that didn't grow up with two smartphones hanging three inches from eyeballs all day :-) After about 15 minutes on even the best systems, I need to take a break. Usually the break is at most half a minute. But that's a far cry from plopping my ass in a chair for a "wait, what the hell time is it?!" marathon RPG or MMO session.

I'm also very curious how FO4 is going to work. Movement in VR is a problem, as discussed here. There's a great stationary bike company that has a compelling solution to it that I've experienced a few times at shows and it works pretty well. There's also this interesting foot-used tilt board that has a sort of hoverboard feel in VR. But even with Vive, best I could hope for in FO4 would be moving around my little living room ingame.

A game built around a cover mechanic though, like the combat parts of ME3 where you can play largely stationary until you need to rush to another cover, that could work ok. But that rush sequence will play havoc on the inner ear unless it's purely a teleporter.

Granted, FO4 has a cover mechanic, but it's not nearly rigid enough for VR imho.

Mass Effect also came to mind as a game that would be amazing with this tech.  Really, most kinds of games could be made to work, and the teleporting function is less bothersome than you might expect.  The other solution they use is a "sprint" mechanic, which is different than teleporting in that you can actually see/feel yourself running through the space (and maybe you still exist as a target in multiplayer, no idea).  It works as well, because it happens so fast that your inner ear doesn't really have time to register the problem.  Again, though, I think when they tackle some of these other games and genres they will have to implement BOTH a teleport/sprint function as well as a traditional movement system.  The track pad on the Vive can be made to work just fine for movement if they want to, and then it would be up to the individual person to figure out which one to choose.  Multiplayer is the problem, because the playing field needs to be equal.  But fuck multiplayer.

I will update regularly how well I am adapting to the sensations.  I'm 43.  In general I don't get eye strain, and it would be fair to say I am in excellent physical condition otherwise.  Also, I tried something interesting last night - some of you were asking about eye glasses.  I wear contact lenses and am nearsighted (-2.0 in each eye), and it occurred to me that the screen is VERY close to my eyeballs.  Even though you are focusing on something far away in your brain, it is still actually close in reality - a bit of a paradox.  So I took my contacts out and tested.  I cannot be completely sure without trying it out a few more times, but I did not notice a significant difference in clarity.  Certainly not anything like in the real world, where I feel like I am totally blind without lenses.  Maybe I will notice it more over an extended period of play time, but it leads me to think that you might not even need your corrective lenses on.  I suppose it could depend a great deal on how blind you are.  Anyway, I was quite surprised by the initial result.

On a side, played just a single round of HordeZ last night.  A new poorly lit sewer level I hadn't tried before, and I upped the difficulty slightly.  Man oh man, I am not ashamed to tell you that it fucked me up a little.  I am pretty good at suspending disbelief (which is plus with this VR stuff) and letting my imagination take over, and it scared the crap out of me.  There are a couple of games that are designed to be legit scary, much more so than this one, but I am not sure I have the gonads for them.  


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: ajax34i on September 14, 2016, 05:21:26 AM
Problem with the backpack solution (other than the obvious ones) is that it doesn't do anything about how to track your movement in space.  

Movement is relative.  They'd have to track the movement of (objects in) the environment relative to the backpack, and extrapolate.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 14, 2016, 06:08:33 AM
Yeah, I see how they could do that, but how do they know where the walls are?  Where the door is?  Where the chair is?  The location of the legos on the carpet or the dogshit in the backyard.  Etcetera.  The point is, you have to pre-define a play space somehow, do you not?  And pre-defining that space is what the Vive is already doing.  Nothing about that computer backpack solution tells me that they have magically solved those other problems.  The user pictured in the article is even using a Vive, which indicates to me that this is just a way to sever the tether.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just not seeing it.  Maybe there is more to it than what they said in that link.  Of course, anything that advances the technology towards something more portable and/or wireless is still a net positive, so there's at least that.

Also, I'd personally love the idea of a working treadmill being put into practice, but I doubt something like that could ever work as a commercial product.  Even I would have trouble convincing the wife of something like that.  No way something like that goes mainstream anytime soon.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: KallDrexx on September 14, 2016, 07:08:55 AM
The purpose of the backpack isn't so you can VR through your house, it's so you can:

1) Not have to worry about tripping over your Oculus/Vive's cables
2) Not be tethered to a specific room in your house
3) Be able to bring your VR experience to friends houses with ease.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 14, 2016, 11:21:56 AM
Yeah, that. Unless you're playing in a giant gym, movement solutions need to be based on the controls, not on the gear location. That should only matter for local movement like dodging, ducking, hiding behind walls, etc. It's a hell of a puzzle, which is why the Fallout/Doom thing is going to be a very interesting release. If Bethsoft pulls it off, it could make the VR thing, if they screw it up, it could break it.

As I've said, that's the event I have my eye on when considering the tech.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 15, 2016, 10:09:28 AM
You might be right, but my concern is not so much about the movement controls - as I am pretty sure I would be fine even with a teleport/sprint implementation.  I am more curious to see if they can pull it off on the purely graphical side.  Or if they even attempt to re-create the whole experience.  Tall order.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 15, 2016, 10:48:33 AM
If they can't nail real movement in a game, the tech is dead in the water as a gimmick.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 15, 2016, 10:55:03 AM
Well, they can.  The question is more whether our inner ears can handle it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Pennilenko on September 15, 2016, 11:48:18 AM
I get instantly motion sick when using my rift. I even built a new machine with a 1080 to get perfect frame rates. Sadly I think the only tech I will be able to enjoy is going to be augmented reality tech.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 15, 2016, 03:31:41 PM
Well, they can.  The question is more whether our inner ears can handle it.
Yup. It's hit or miss with the 3d vision, even. Some days I can play for a couple hours, sometimes ten minutes and I'm gagging.

Wish I could get it working with my current pc/tv setup.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 17, 2016, 08:25:50 AM
Grabbed a game call The Solus Project.  It is supposed to be a good VR game, and there are a couple of interesting things about it.  One, it is actually built first as s regular game, and later adapted to VR - I think this is the sort of thing that gives this tech a better chance of succeeding.  Second, they have built in the option of regular movement via a normal controller or the track pad on the Vive controller.  So in other words, it is a true test of whether or not that sort of thing can be workable. I am happy to say that it does indeed work.  I have no idea if the "game" will be any good, but walking around and looking at shit is alone worth the 20 bucks.  Without changing any controller configuration, I can either use teleportation, traditional d-pad movement, or simply walk around in my roomspace area.  Pretty fucking cool.  The devs have been pretty smart about the implementation, as you can toggle the walking speed at 10% intervals.  I started at 40%, and quickly moved up to 50% walking speed.  Turns out my stomach can handle it okay, but I am going to take it slow.  I am feeling some after effects as I type this, but nothing I would call nausea by any stretch.  The only think I dislike is that you move in the direction you are looking instead of the direction you are pushing on the pad, and I can't figure out if there is a way to change that.  I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on it. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 18, 2016, 05:09:22 AM
Discovered this morning that there here is a Vive mod for Minecraft.  It supports all movement types and control inputs, so kb/m or Vive controllers with full tracking and room scale.  I guess it works with Optifine and will even work with Forge and all kinds of mods.  I played it a bit to get used to the Vive controls and stuff (which, I must say, they did a great job on).  I am sure hardcore players would prefer the keyboard and mouse setup.  But for a guy like me who is actually perfectly happy even playing vanilla MC and just plays for the basic stuff, the motion controllers seem perfectly fine.

I don't know any other way to put this:  It is glorious.  I haven't played MC for probably about two years, and would probably have never played it again.  This is the perfect VR game.  Totally blown away.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 18, 2016, 12:59:04 PM
Argh stop it. I can't afford one!  :tantrum:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on September 18, 2016, 05:26:42 PM
Yea MC in VR is something else. Even the cheapy pocket edition on the Samsung Gear VR was pretty impressive. Not a keeper since it wasn't the PC edition. But that's what makes me want a Vive now :-)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 19, 2016, 01:56:11 AM
The locomotion they did with the Vive controllers is quite impressive.  It'll never replace kb/m for sheer precision, and it is a bit tricky to figure out things like walking slowly backwards while laying blocks and things like that, but doable with some practice.  It'll also probably destroy your stomach if you can't handle stuff like that, because they have done nothing to mitigate the walking and sprinting speed (you can use the teleport function instead, but that would get tiresome real quick in this game methinks).  And running down hillsides or jumping from heights....fucking trippy.  They smartly decided to map your movement to the direction you are pointing with one of the controllers (then you just pull the trigger), rather than where you are looking.  It is plainly obvious that this is the perfect way to do movement in any FPS type of game as well, so that bodes well for others.  I think this is one of those things where the best control scheme they can come up with will always be technically inferior to a kb/m setup, but more fun regardless.

The whole thing runs buttery smooth and looks absolutely perfect, which is not something you can say about most of the other VR games as they usually have to sacrifice something to become playable.  Walking around in your first little shack or standing out in a rainstorm...I cannot properly convey how great it is and how amazing it looks.  It is like they are shooting minecraft straight into your brain.  I am also amazed at how easily they have adapted this for VR, and hope it inspires others to do similar things with other mod friendly games.  I will probably have to give some mods a try to see if they actually do work, which I think will require a re-install.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 19, 2016, 06:37:16 AM
I will probably have to give some mods a try to see if they actually do work, which I think will require a re-install.

I would be particularly interested in how any flight and speed buffs feel, e.g. a Mekanism jetpack, or Botania Flugel Tiara w. Sojourners Sash, etc. My money is on 'instant vomit'  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 19, 2016, 07:56:21 AM
Hell, just going into creative mode and floating around was interesting.  You'll either love it, or throw up is my guess.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 19, 2016, 09:49:34 AM
The thing that consistently makes me stabby is that people have been randomly making amazing gaming achievements as crappy java mods for so long but 'aaa developers' can't figure out the most rudimentary shit.  :uhrr:

MS is completely retarded if they don't hire this VR mod dude.

I saw some of the teleport stuff and yeah, I'd just do kbm and use the headset for looking around. Too many hotkeys for a controller to run a decent modpack, anyway.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 19, 2016, 09:50:04 AM
Couple of questions occurred to me. Vive-specific, how long is the cable bunch, from PC to HMD? Also, what's the connection to be PC? Do you need a spare DVI port on your graphics card or is it HDMI or something else? And how easy/quick is to take the HMD on & off?

And is there any way to use the Windows UI with it on or do you need to take the HMD off to launch games etc.?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 19, 2016, 10:53:03 AM
The thing that consistently makes me stabby is that people have been randomly making amazing gaming achievements as crappy java mods for so long but 'aaa developers' can't figure out the most rudimentary shit.  :uhrr:

MS is completely retarded if they don't hire this VR mod dude.

I saw some of the teleport stuff and yeah, I'd just do kbm and use the headset for looking around. Too many hotkeys for a controller to run a decent modpack, anyway.

Pretty much.  And I see what you are saying about the kbm, but I think that would take away much of the fun.  It isn't just looking around, it is also turning around and moving around within your space.  I will probably have to give kbm a trial just to prove it to myself, but I suspect it is going to suck in comparison.  But maybe it goes to prove that the hardcore minecraft players might get bored of this.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 19, 2016, 11:09:25 AM
Couple of questions occurred to me. Vive-specific, how long is the cable bunch, from PC to HMD? Also, what's the connection to be PC? Do you need a spare DVI port on your graphics card or is it HDMI or something else? And how easy/quick is to take the HMD on & off?

And is there any way to use the Windows UI with it on or do you need to take the HMD off to launch games etc.?

Total cable length...something like 5 meters, maybe 6?  Long enough if you have your PC in reasonable proximity to your play area, but I do sometimes wish it were a meter longer.  Or even several meters longer if I ever figure out a clever way to tether it to my ceiling, but that is probably not happening any time soon.  The connection is HDMI and USB (preferably 3.0, but not required like it is with the Rift).  Taking off the thing is easy as pie.  It has its own Steam VR application that helps you launch games, but there is also a built in virtual desktop to get to your UI.  Also some better third party UIs, but I haven't tried any yet.  I always just take it off when I want to go into windows for any reason.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 19, 2016, 01:53:12 PM
Damn, all of those answers are satisfactory.

I'll just continue repeating "You don't have £700 to spare" over and over again in my head.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 19, 2016, 02:33:41 PM
Damn, all of those answers are satisfactory.

I'll just continue repeating "You don't have £700 to spare" over and over again in my head.
Sure you do! They'll make more!

If I hadn't just blown $1300 on a new bass I'd probably cave on one  :grin:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 20, 2016, 12:35:44 AM
To elaborate a bit on the desktop UI - the main reason to take it off and go work on your monitor is that the screen door effect makes small text close to illegible and basically looks like crap.  I have no idea if any of the third party apps manage to improve that scenario, but I am fine with it as it is.  I am not using it to replace my monitor for anything besides games, and I think going in with such an expectation will leave you disappointed.  On the other hand, I did grab a VR video player which will let you play traditional, 3D, VR and 360 videos.  I already have a big screen for my projector, but the effect is pretty cool and I would certainly use it to watch regular movies if I had no other access to a big screen.  You can basically make it a fucking huge screen as if you were sitting in a cinema and it looks okay (with screen door effect, but you get used to that sort of thing).  Haven't tried any true 3D or 360 material, but VR porn is kinda interesting....

Tested again last night with my contact lenses out (minus 2 in both eyes.  Or maybe 2.5, suddenly can't remember).  And I'll be damned, but I wasn't imagining things.  Played minecraft and things were crystal clear.  I think some of this will depend on ones age and particular vision issues, but it is a surprising result nonetheless.  If I wore glasses instead of contacts, there is no question that I would take the glasses off instead of trying to fit them under the headset.  YMMV.

Apocrypha, Sky...God gave us two kidneys for a reason, man.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 20, 2016, 01:35:07 AM
FFfuuuckkk. I dreamt that someone sent me a cheque for £900 in the post and I was all like "yay gonna get me a Vive!" and I've just realised it was a dream. Stupid dreams!

Anyway, I'm not bothered about the Windows UI if the HMD is easy to take off & put back on, it was something I'd have wanted if that was a total pain.

VR video eh. How's the porn?  :drill:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on September 20, 2016, 09:09:29 AM
Oh, man. Didn't even think about the screens being close to my eyes. I've got macroscopic close vision, I could probably see them great without glasses.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 20, 2016, 09:37:39 AM
Oh, man. Didn't even think about the screens being close to my eyes. I've got macroscopic close vision, I could probably see them great without glasses.

Yeah, I am nearsighted, and while wearing contacts things close up tend to get blurry (a problem that seems to be worsening as I age).  Without contacts I see close things better.  So I guess that is why this works...because technically it is really close to my face.

Anyway, I'm not bothered about the Windows UI if the HMD is easy to take off & put back on, it was something I'd have wanted if that was a total pain.

VR video eh. How's the porn?  :drill:

Most of the people who I have seen making complaints about putting on and taking off the headset have really been complaining about their headphones.  For obvious reasons, if you think about it.  The headset itself is nothing fancy, it just straps to your head like a set of paintball goggles or something.

The VR porn...well, for purely scientific reasons I will have to do some more experimentation, naturally.  But it is basically more like POV 3D porn with a splash of VR.  It's not like you are walking around with your controllers in roomscale virtually fisting your favorite porn stars.  But as I type that sentence, I bet someone is coming up with exactly that idea.  Anyway, for what it is...yeah.  Interesting.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on September 23, 2016, 01:41:42 PM
Keep politics in Politics.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Severian on September 23, 2016, 03:33:32 PM
Keep politics in Politics.

 
Ah, I don't go there. Never mind then, it's both trivial and dumb anyway.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 24, 2016, 09:59:14 AM
Yeah, I am nearsighted, and while wearing contacts things close up tend to get blurry (a problem that seems to be worsening as I age).  Without contacts I see close things better.  So I guess that is why this works...because technically it is really close to my face.

That's probably because myopia (near- or short-sightedness) is generally caused by the shape of the eyeball being slightly imperfect whilst hyperopia (long- or far-sightedness) as we age is usually caused by weakening of the muscles which focus the lens in the eye. What it means is that when we're short-sighted we reach a point in later life where we develop far-sightedness too, hence the need for bi-/varifocal lenses. It sucks balls.

My wife has started needing varifocals and she hates them. I'm not there yet but probably soon. In fact it's one of the things that's making me think I should try and get in on VR this gen if I can find a way to afford it. If the product cycles do turn out to be in the 5+ year range then I'll be over 50 by the time Vive 2 is out and I may simply be less able to enjoy it as much by then.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 25, 2016, 03:18:36 AM
I think there will be some incremental improvements....things like wireless headsets perhaps, more comfortable headsets, etc.  But the obvious big leap that comes next is a resolution increase, and that is no small feat.  These things are already dual 1200p monitors that have to be driven at 90 fps each, and the next logical leap is to try to double that.  In other words, two 4k monitors running at 90fps each.  So what's that, a power factor of 4?  8?  A lot.  It's going to be a while, at least 5 years.  Meanwhile, the current technology is totally good enough.  Other than the cost, the biggest problem with this generation is that it is going to take some time for the software to catch up.  There is a shitload of interesting stuff, but most of it is still too short, still in Alpha, and so on.

A lot of people keep saying (here and elsewhere) that the locomotion is the big problem that needs solving, and I am more and more convinced that this is wrong.  Devs are making the short-sighted mistake of assuming that they have to build teleport/sprint style movement into games, and that is holding the technology back.  While I can go along with the idea that they should include these as options, I am equally certain that it is better in the long term for them to also put traditional movement in.  Yes, it makes some people sick, but that is just tough shit for those people.  People prone to motion sickness are an unsolvable problem and you shouldn't be designing the movement around them.  Give them an option, sure, but don't handicap the game for the rest of us that can handle it.  It seems like primarily an old man's problem anyway.  My kids look at me like an idiot if I ask them if they are getting nauseous.  They will be turning more people off with strictly teleport movement than they would if it was strictly traditional.  Stomach issues aside, traditional movement is instantly more enjoyable.  And it seems that you can get used to it.

And then you have something like the Omni.  I don't know how well it will work in practice, because does anyone really want to walk or run around for miles and miles?  Seems like a cool idea, though, and I would rather they head in this direction as opposed to compromising elsewhere.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on September 25, 2016, 06:26:11 AM
I like the avatar. :thumbs_up:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on September 26, 2016, 05:54:52 AM
Used some steam credits to pick up a game called "Onward".  I may have referred to it in an earlier post someone.  Basically, it is an online multiplayer shooter.  Basic 4v4, capture the objective type thing.  It is considered a Mil-Sim, so more along the lines of Arma or something like that in terms of realism factor.  What is interesting about the game is that it 100% proves that the VR FPS multiplayer shooter thing can be done (which means there is no reason the singleplayer version won't also work just fine).  There is no teleporting at all, it is all done via d-pad on the left controller.  And while it takes some time to get used to controlling the movement, they definitely have the right idea here.  I won't go into detail about how to control stuff, but it works well.  Nothing is taken for granted here...if you want to reload, you have to eject or pull out the magazine, grab a new magazine from your chest harness and shove it in, pull back and release the bolt, etc.  You aim with both hands (or well, you should), just like you would if you were holding a rifle IRL.  It manages to be pretty convincing, and the haptic feedback is excellent.  The learning curve her is steep.

The graphics themselves are janky and unpolished, and sometimes your teammates move in unnatural ways.  Still Early Access, but I wound't expect them to do much more than smooth things out a bit.  I understand they want to go for realism, but I actually think this tech works better with colorful, cartoony stuff due to the screen door and resolution limitations.

Anyhow.  I won't draw any conclusions on it yet, but for two hours last night I was totally sucked in.  Way more intense and realistic than any shooter I have played before.  Immersive to a ridiculous degree.  Did I say intense?  I basically couldn't sleep last night.  I don't know if this particular game will have any legs with me or other Vive users, but there is now no doubt in my mind now of what is possible and that Valve are going to come up with something in the shooter genre and it will be the Best Thing Ever.









Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on October 07, 2016, 12:37:11 AM
Couple news items from Oculus' conference: Touch pre-orders start Monday, with delivery for Dec 6. $199 USD with an extra sensor.

Also, Asynchronous Time Warp or some such thing. Basically, an SDK update that allowed them to drop the min reqs to a 960 and an i3.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on October 10, 2016, 01:48:36 AM
One part of me wants to see Oculus pay a high price for their dickish business practices, but a bigger part is hopeful that their success will keep VR moving ahead.  Better for everyone if there is more success going around.  Also, I don't know how Asynchronous time Warp works, but the Vive uses "reprojection" which has a similar effect...it is basically frame interpolation.  If the system detects that you are not running at 90 FPS, it will drop down to 45 and then do interpolation for the remaining 45, thus keeping things smooth.  It generally works well, but some of the purists bitch about it because it will sometimes fuck up the interpolation.  I haven't noticed.  You can also turn it off it your system is beefy enough.

Have tried a handful of new things over the past couple of weeks.  I mentioned Onward above, but I haven't had time to really dig into it much (steep learning curve).  I keep going back to HordeZ, which is just a wonderful on rails zombie slaughtering game.  Have also tried a few demos in the Horror genre, and let me tell you....Horror in VR is something else entirely.  I don't even really love the genre (basically because I am a pussy), but it is like VR was made for that kind of shit.  The same goes for the more psychological thriller stuff.  VR is the perfect medium for mind-fucking you.  I have a game called "A Chair in a Room" where you are basically some kind of mental patient in an institution or something.  So creepy, and so awesome.  I think it could be classified sort of as an "escape the room" game as well.  There are a lot of those kinds of games.

And yesterday, I picked up House of the Dying Sun.  I guess it is traditionally a non-VR game, but it has been converted.  It is a relatively simple pew pew arcadey space combat game.  You are strapped into a fighter and go shoot up the baddies.  Guys, guys, guys....this is life altering stuff.  The effect is so convincing that I don't even know what to say anymore.  I am pretty sure I am going to have to go buy Elite: Dangerous now, as it is suppose to be glorious in VR.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on October 11, 2016, 10:04:49 AM
Elite is quite glorious - though I haven't played in a while because its a massive time-sink and I suck at it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on October 13, 2016, 11:39:23 AM
Read a couple of interesting VR-related articles recently.

Here's (https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/09/27/4k-vr-headset/) a 4K VR HMD for $300. Unsurprisingly it has serious issues, not least of which is it's really uncomfortable. But as the article says, "If someone’s made this for $300, surely someone’s going to make something even better for similar before too long."

And then this (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/landfall-oc3-vr-oculus-rift,32833.html) hands-on with a demo of an in-development VR game, Landfall.
Quote
Imagine a tabletop board game with intricate, 3D characters. Now imagine that the characters come to life and run around, but remain just a couple of inches tall, and a 3D world springs to life around them. Also, there are little helicopters zooming overhead, and biped war machines that sometimes drop from the sky onto the tabletop. Look up; you’re inside that 3D world.

Sounds awesome! Of course I still can't afford VR, but the first article gives me hope that it might not be 5+ years until I can.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on October 14, 2016, 04:48:45 AM
Really, a 4k VR HMD is not realistic until we advance another couple of GPU generations.  As it is, only the most powerful cards can run it at 1080p, and much of the time that requires some kind of interpolation to keep it at a reasonable FPS.  Anyway, resolution itself is not the biggest negative of the current VR tech.  Screen Door Effect is a bit of an annoyance, and aliasing is for sure a problem.  Better resolution should be a long term goal, naturally, but I would rather they spend their energy working on those other things, as well as simply improving performance out of what we currently have.  And another thing I'd wish for was a better FOV, though I am not sure that is even physically possible with the current nature of the technology.

It kinda begs the question:  why would these guys produce a 300 dollar 4k headset that has no way of being a success when they could have instead come out with a competing HMD at 1080p for say 200 bucks?  The former has virtually no chance of succeeding in the short term, but the latter would tempt a lot of people, even with the issues it apparently has. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on October 14, 2016, 04:55:24 AM
It's Chinese manufacturing's way though isn't it? Try to compete at the lower end of any market but pad out your product with features & specs at the expense of quality. Point is that it puts pressure on the market and hopefully will lead to better quality, cheaper offerings before too long. It's happened in pretty much every other segment of tech in recent years. It also says to me that there's a big enough market for it to be worth their while, which is encouraging for the future of VR in the medium term.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on October 20, 2016, 05:39:07 AM
Well, once you get into this technology yourself, some of this begins to make more sense.  What you need to understand is this:  If they cannot get the projected image to run at a minimum FPS (which is probably around 75 or thereabouts, but 90 is clearly better), then the VR tech simply doesn't work.  There are some tricks they can use to essentially double the FPS, but then you are still looking at a machine that needs to put out 40 FPS at a minimum at 4K just to get a barely passable experience.  It just isn't realistic yet.  And I am not talking about an argument wear I put on my beret and insist that 90 FPS is better than 30 FPS because of my distinguished tastes are superior to yours.  The stuff literally does not work if you don't hit the minimum. 

So that is why it makes no sense to me.  They should have targeted the lower end, because the PCs can actually run that shit.  That will put pressure on the market, and I have no doubt someone will be working on this as we speak.  And while the Vive is currently the pinnacle experience (at least until the Touch controllers are shipping...) due to the tracking and room scale, there is still a big opportunity out there for the sit-down market.

And speaking of sit-down VR experiences, I bought Elite: Dangerous.  Probably a big mistake.  It looks a bit shitty, but it doesn't matter because it is fucking awesome.  I already have more hours in this after 5 days than I do in any other VR game.  I am also now seriously considering a vid-card upgrade, if only I can find a way to position it with the wife unit. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on October 20, 2016, 11:14:27 AM
I think the point of the Chinese way isn't that it's creating a good experience. It's that it forces things to innovate at a faster pace, while getting a ton of cheap sets out into American hands. Look at the HDTV boom. When I got into it with 'George', I bought a really nice 720p set. There were some 1080i sets on the market, too (but my aim was a pc monitor, so I wanted a high res (for the time) progressive scan set).

The market was pretty thin and very expensive. My first set was on the shelf for $5k (I got it for about $3200, iirc, thanks to Circuit City's math-challenged employee). A couple years later, you began to see really shitty upscaling sets pop up in walmart, just horrible pictures and compatibility. But people bought them up like crazy. It took years of these low end shitty tvs, but eventually the top end got priced better (my last 73" 1080p DLP cost me just over a grand) and the low end walmart garbage is mostly decent spec sets. Just about every low income home has a 1080p LCD set in their living room 13 years after I entered an extremely niche market.

The enthusiast drive the initial experience and will continue to drive the top end of the market, benefitting them with a better experience and lower costs as tech and production spin up. The low end, though, will be what drives overall adoption and it will be a mess for a long time...but people will still love the subpar experience and be happy in ten years when they're finally getting the experience you're getting now.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on October 20, 2016, 12:10:51 PM
Cyrrex, I do understand the requirements of 90 fps, I'd consider myself pretty well informed regarding VR. I wasn't advocating that anyone actually buy that 4k setup, but it's existence shows me that the market is at least healthy enough for the low-end competition to start.

That does affect my personal decisions. I can't afford a top-end VR system right now, neither can I afford to upgrade my PC to drive one sufficiently. If I had a PS4 I'd be seriously considering a PSVR, but the cost of buying both is too high, especially for a VR experience that wouldn't be as good as a good PC setup. But the entry of low-end PC VR systems is encouraging, makes me hope that the cost of good VR systems might start to come down sooner rather than later and saves me selling a kidney now.  :grin:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on October 21, 2016, 12:19:34 AM
Well like I said, hopefully it means someone is working on a 1080p set that can come in at a more reasonable price range.  The only thing really annoying me about that Chinese thing linked above is that it is 4K.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on October 21, 2016, 12:59:30 AM
Yeah, with ya on the cheap. Also the comfort - the PSVR seems to be getting really good comments on that, hopefully the other players can learn from/copy their design :)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 01, 2016, 07:28:17 AM
Yeah, it should be said that the Vive is not what you would call comfortable.  You can improve things to a degree and you get more and more used to it, but it never gets close to perfect.

In related news, Steam released a new reprojection technology called Asynchronous Time Warp, which is sorta but not quite like a technology Oculus has been using for a while (theirs is Asynchronous SPACE Warp, which is fundamentally different somehow).  The impact is of releasing this tech is that it significantly reduces HMD related "judder" when you look around, effectively bridging the framerate gaps when you have settings turned up.  Net effect is that it seriously improves performance, much like a GPU upgrade.  It probably also unofficially lowers the minimum specs to a 960 or something, though I doubt Steam will announce it like Oculus did, basically because they hated making this stuff available in the first place (in their eyes, it promotes lazy dev work).  For me, it means I can turn up the supersampling even in more demanding games, making them look much nicer.  Elite: Dangerous looks way nicer.  Anyway, it was a big step, and there is more they can do if they get around to adapting the same stuff Oculus has.

And speaking of Elite, I just cannot get enough of that game in VR.  I fucking suck at it like you wouldn't believe, but I don't even care.  For all my brain can tell, I am flying around in space in goddamn spaceship.  Amazing beyond belief.  And now it doesn't look shitty at all.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on November 01, 2016, 10:32:39 AM
We'll know they've perfected things when we don't see you posting anymore.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 04, 2016, 04:45:28 AM
Well, I can't take it to work with me, so I can always post from there!

Literally two minutes ago, I was playing something - a roomscale psychological horror game - and I just experienced something that made me scream "FUCK NO!", jumped backwards and tore off my headset, ran over to the PC and clicked the X up in the right corner of the program as fast as I could.  I am sitting here right now chuckling to myself and getting my heart rate back down, reminding myself that it was just a dumb game....but I don't think I can bring myself to go back into that game, and that after already having to take a two week break from it.  Scariest thing I have ever experienced in my life.  I really want to know how it ends, but I am now not sure I ever will. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Venkman on November 04, 2016, 11:39:59 PM
I spent some time this week with folks in the space, and a chunk of that was not-jokingly talking about the new class of psychologicaly problems VR and AR are going to cause. Kinda spoke a bit in shorthand because we were all sci-fi geeks and had read some of the similar books that specualte on this kind of thing.

I was pretty impressed with the Oculus Touch controls. Lighter/smaller than the Vive ones, they have nice capacitive sensors on every buttons so even resting a finger on a button registers in VR space. As close to feeling like my hand was in VR as I've gotten aside from the demos with the Leap Motion kitbashed onto the front of a HMD, with the added benefit that I've got a prop that can do stuff. Used it to play Insomniac's Unspoken. Typically stationary spellcasting game, but with touch Touch, it allows for some fancy gesture based actions.

But I'm still most impressed by Hololens. By the time they get that thing down to $1K, either they'll have worked out the FOV issue, or we'll have lasers hitting our eyeballs from Magic Leap :-)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 17, 2016, 05:41:24 AM
Subnautica has now been given the Vive treatment.  Not my kind of game, really, but damn damn damn it is pretty.  It was nice to look at in RR (regular reality), but man alive.

Also, apparently Google Earth has just come out in VR, and people are apparently blown the fuck away and saying it is the best thing since Jesus Toast.  Haven't tried it yet.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on November 17, 2016, 11:42:19 AM
Wife said PSVR costs too much and I kinda agree.  I'll be giving it a try this weekend.  Any recommendations?  Like, which games go well with which substances?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on November 17, 2016, 12:59:36 PM
Anything scary with acid.  :grin:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: 01101010 on November 17, 2016, 02:06:18 PM
Anything scary with acid.  :grin:

Never even thought that much about VR, but couple that with hallucinogens - now I am listening. Of course, it could just lead to a situation of the waves cancelling each other out.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on November 17, 2016, 03:54:21 PM
https://youtu.be/nEuL3nZz9_w

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Teleku on November 18, 2016, 05:13:17 AM
Well, I can't take it to work with me, so I can always post from there!

Literally two minutes ago, I was playing something - a roomscale psychological horror game - and I just experienced something that made me scream "FUCK NO!", jumped backwards and tore off my headset, ran over to the PC and clicked the X up in the right corner of the program as fast as I could.  I am sitting here right now chuckling to myself and getting my heart rate back down, reminding myself that it was just a dumb game....but I don't think I can bring myself to go back into that game, and that after already having to take a two week break from it.  Scariest thing I have ever experienced in my life.  I really want to know how it ends, but I am now not sure I ever will. 
Out of curiosity, whats the name of the game you were playing that freaked you out?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 18, 2016, 09:35:55 AM
A Chair in a Room: Greenwater

I may be a bit of a VR pussy, it should be mentioned.  I still haven't worked up the nerve to go back there, and I really want to finish it.  Apparently there are scarier games, but that one gets the best reviews of the horror stuff.

Google Earth VR is cool as shit, by the way.  I actually had a bit...moment...standing in the crater of Mt. Rainier, looking up at the Milky Way.  You can zoom all the way down to 'human level' and go see stuff in the big cities.  The only downside is that it is all taken from aerial photos, so it doesn't have details from Street View.  You get 3D blobs of cars instead of actual cars, for example, when you get all the way down to the ground.  If they every incorporate Street View somehow (which is no easy thing)...man.  As it is, anything from a roughly birdseye view is freaking amazing.  Or you can zoom out and have the planet right in front of you as you hover in space.  Crazy stuff.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Teleku on November 18, 2016, 03:24:24 PM
So is there any consensus on what seems to be the best platform?  Vive seems to make the most sense right now because it has so many options, with a ton more down the road on steam.  Oculus and PSVR seem like they are potentially way more limited in what you can do with them based on platform restrictions, but maybe I'm missing something.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on November 18, 2016, 03:39:27 PM
If someone offered me any one of my choice for free, I'd take the Vive.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on November 18, 2016, 04:35:10 PM
Most things on the Steam Platform will also run on Oculus, now that the touch controllers are out.

General consensus seems to be that Oculus is a slightly better headset - It's more comfortable and clearer, though Vive has a bit better FoV.

Overall though, Oculus and Vive are on a pretty even field. PSVR is, from what I hear, a cute gimmick if you already have a PS.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 19, 2016, 01:18:35 AM
The Room Scale on the Vive is what puts it slightly ahead of the Oculus, assuming the Oculus Touch controllers are going to be on par.  Long term this will probably even out, but I'd still go with the Vive.  PSVR is to be avoided if you really want to get the full experience.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on November 19, 2016, 12:03:50 PM
I've heard/read that the PSVR is the current clear winner in terms of HMD comfort.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Teleku on November 19, 2016, 12:57:16 PM
Ok, how does the hardware/software integration scene look currently?  Are people mostly developing games in a way that both a Vive and an Occulus (or any potential future set) can use them?  If everything has to be designed for a specific headset, its going to really limit the market.  I imagine that will be the case with the PSVR headset.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 20, 2016, 03:55:19 AM
I've heard/read that the PSVR is the current clear winner in terms of HMD comfort.

Probably true, based on what I have read and the looks of the thing.  And PSVR will probably be cool for certain sit-down games, and I am all for things like this lowering the bar of entrance.  But if you want the "real" VR experience and money wasn't an object, you should only be looking at Oculus and Vive right now.

Ok, how does the hardware/software integration scene look currently?  Are people mostly developing games in a way that both a Vive and an Occulus (or any potential future set) can use them?  If everything has to be designed for a specific headset, its going to really limit the market.  I imagine that will be the case with the PSVR headset.

Right now, some Vive games simply do not work on Oculus due to design choices being made to leverage Room Scale.  I think that will be slowly changing now and become less of an issue, once people start getting Touch controllers and extra Oculus cameras that will mimic the Vive setup more closely.  Other than that, most things will technically work for both, at least once a dev or a modder makes it so.  An important factor to consider is that Oculus is trying the walled-garden approach, and some devs have downright boycotted them.  Others have taken fat payouts to delay releases for Vive until Oculus hardware is ready or to do exclusives.  Either way, and it shouldn't surprise anyone once you consider Facebook is behind it, Oculus is trying to dis-courage the open landscape.  Steam/Vive otoh are taking the exact opposite approach.  All things being equal, I would take a Vive on this fact alone.  Others might argue that it either doesn't matter much in the real world, or that the Oculus approach will eventually lead to bigger more polished titles. To each his own, I guess.  Also, Steam refunds is a thing.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 20, 2016, 04:18:49 AM
And now since it has been at least two days since I have gushed awkwardly over anything VR related.....

Doom 3 BFG has just released it's VR mod.  I can't quite tell if this is the same mod that has been promised for a while now, mentioned in the same breath as the Fallout 4 mod, but it seems it is the official one.  Even if you haven't played this game (I haven't, for one), you already know what it basically is.  The only thing important to mention about the VR conversion is that it is full FPS locomotion via the trackpad.  No teleporting here, so I am glad I have my VR legs at this point.

This is exactly what I hope to see more of.  Take solid older titles and convert them to VR.  I haven't gotten to any shooty parts yet, but already I can see that they've nailed it.  It runs great, controls great, and even with older textures it looks great.  They even did Room Scale.





Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on November 21, 2016, 09:31:12 AM
One point to make about "room scale" since it gets bandied around a lot in these discussions: it's basically Vive term that means "our setup can handle a bigger room". Prior to Touch coming out it mattered, because without touch there really wasn't any room scale being done at all for Oculus, and no one knew what they could handle. Now, it's just a buzzword meaning that the Vive setup can handle a bigger play are than the Oculus. Vive can setup for 11 x 11 and Oculus is expected to spec at a little smaller.

Problem I have is when I see people say Vive games are being designed for "room space" that Oculus can't handle. Hi end studios are not going to be putting out games that require a 10' x 10' open play area. What percentage of the public has the living space to devote an 11' x 11' play area? I don't have a room in my entire place that's 11' in two directions.

Will you get the odd specific puzzle game release designed to take advantage of that much space? Sure, but for the small audience that's designed for.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on November 21, 2016, 09:52:44 AM
The PSVR is pretty cool.  Turns out I'm one of those people that aren't disoriented by it.  I played a bunch of shit over the weekend.  The biggest negative is the screen resolution, but generally that's something that fades into the background for me.  It fits my head very well (light & comfortable), is very responsive, and just works.  We were playing in a seated position but standing is an option and provides better mobility (of course).  Naturally, a big plus for me is the absence of managing a Master Race Box.  Another plus is that the PS3 wands work just fine with the PS4.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on November 21, 2016, 11:47:06 AM
I don't have a room in my entire place that's 11' in two directions.
Outside of really old or high-density places, I think most people have room for a decent room scale setup. I have a very small house (950sq ft) and can push back my coffee table and have enough room for it (I often do for Rocksmith  :rock: ).


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 21, 2016, 11:49:46 PM
Vive will technically go up to about 16 x 16 or thereabouts, but it is true that Oculus will soon have something similar.  Early reports have been sorta indicating that the tracking and occlusion might be a little more problematic on the Oculus, but I would expect it will largely even out, especially if you invest in extra cameras.  I take your point that AAAs will probably not risk leveraging it anyway for the most part, or at least not requiring it.  Still, it is quite cool when it is well implemented.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 22, 2016, 03:59:11 AM
And just so this doesn't de-generate into a fanboy battle, let me be clear:  While I might prefer my Vive, I would be thrilled to have an Oculus, because I assume for the most part it delivers a similar experience.  I would even take a PSVR, and actually am really hoping that Sony helps push this stuff mainstream as a real consumer product.  Rising tides, and all that.

So on to more important stuff.  I can categorically say now that Doom 3 BFG VR is the FUCKING TITS.  I am blown away that they can take a crusty old game like this and make it so kick ass.  Closest thing to a killer app for VR. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on November 22, 2016, 09:14:19 AM
How bad is the nausea with Doom? I understand its strictly standard controls.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 22, 2016, 10:25:52 AM
Well, as you know, you get more and more used to this stuff.  Had I played this back when I got my Vive, I think it would have been really tough.  I have played for probably 3 hours today, and I would say I have very mild nausea.  Nothing severe, and totally worth it.

It helps that they have made the locomotion speed variable.  The further towards the center of your trackpad you press, the slower you walk.  If you went full speed all the time, it would probably be an issue.  As it is, I would say it is the perfect implementation of locomotion.  Teleporting would hugely detract from it, IMO.  I understand that some games work well with teleporting and that it should be included as an option whenever possible....but not at the expense of regular locomotion, and certainly not for this game.





Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on November 29, 2016, 05:00:47 AM
Just watched a short video (https://youtu.be/bIxLbmOmub8) about FlyInside, a mod/app that lets you fly FlightSimX etc in the Rift/Vive. I got a little bit motion sick just watching that video but I don't think I've ever wanted anything more in my gaming life.

All my life I've had regular vivid and intense dreams of flying and the thought of flying a microlite in VR gives me the biggest gaming stiffy imaginable.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 29, 2016, 10:36:26 AM
"Flying stuff" in general seems a natural fit.  Elite has already proved it for me, I just wish like the bejeesus that someone will make an X-Wing game at some point.

Also, Penumbra...you guys know it?  There is now apparently a good VR for it, so I picked it up for like 2 bucks on Steam sale.  I expect I will make it some ways in, only for my inner VR pussy to show up again.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on November 29, 2016, 11:37:33 AM
"Flying stuff" in general seems a natural fit.  Elite has already proved it for me, I just wish like the bejeesus that someone will make an X-Wing game at some point.

Also, Penumbra...you guys know it?  There is now apparently a good VR for it, so I picked it up for like 2 bucks on Steam sale.  I expect I will make it some ways in, only for my inner VR pussy to show up again.

X-Wing vs TIE Fighter. Oh god yes please.

And Penumbra, yeah, haha good luck with that  :drill:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on November 29, 2016, 11:45:35 AM
I know it is going to make me scream and shit my pants, but I figure it'll be worth it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Nija on November 29, 2016, 02:24:36 PM
What about this?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVLPO6A5Hx0#t=50s


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Shannow on November 29, 2016, 02:45:42 PM
I want one.

He's wearing gloves.. :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on December 13, 2016, 02:58:50 PM
Well, just got my touch controllers so thought I'd report on it. Oh my.

The "demo" for touch blows away the stuff that came with the base Oculus. Proved I can't aim a gun for shit with my left hand.

Setup a simple play area of about 6 x 8 feet. One camera at desk level, one on top of a shelf looking down. Guardian system reports accurately as I get close to the edges. I can tell it will take a little while for the controls to become natural feeling - my efforts at basketball were mediocre - but they really respond and track nicely.

Played about 30 minutes of "The Unspoken" Basically Tron Deadly Disks meets Wizard dueling. Pretty impressive. Routinely rotated about a 270 degree arc, mainly relying on the cord to realize when I was spinning too much, never lost tracking.

Taking a break for now, as an hour is about my max comfort level in VR. Will play around with the sculpting and painting programs next.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on December 13, 2016, 11:04:09 PM
And my life may now be complete - I can play skiball at home.

Pierhead Arcade. $10 game. Just a room full of midway games. Physics are excellent, Global leaderboards are compelling. It's addictive as hell, and a good workout. Appears I can even add my own jukebox playlist.

Only wonky game I found was the bowling. Only strike I got was overhand. The silly bits of realism though - if you drop a ball it will roll away and you actually have to go pick it up to continue playing your game.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on March 29, 2017, 09:03:22 AM
Haven't posted in this thread in a long time, but that isn't because I have lost interest in VR.  It is still a struggle to get a hold of really compelling games that have any real longevity...too much shovelware, but there are a number of decent/good games that usually suffer from just being too short and I can't bother to pull the trigger on them.  More importantly, I haven't had time to even get through the stuff that I have already

That said, I came here to post that Arizona Sunshine is faaaaaaantastic.  It was hyped a lot in the VR community, and totally lived up to it.

Curious if the Doom mod works on Oculus Bunk?  If it does, you really need to try it. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on April 11, 2017, 09:00:44 AM
Haven't tried Doom yet, mostly due to wonkiness from running around inside 3d games. Minecraft is only playable for about 30 minutes aa a time.


Got Rock Band VR yesterday. Its a pretty good example of the right direction for VR I think. It feels a little light in actual content (like most VR games so far) but does a good job of integrating a game you would normally have 100% focus on in to a 3d environment. I always thought it was funny that Rock Band 4 put you up on stage, considering you had to focus so hard on the fret board that you'd only see the background between songs anyways.

With RB VR, they totally changed it up gameplay wise. Now, its all about chords. Basically, you have seven chord shapes. You get points and build bonus for playing them in sensible and interesting patterns during the song. The sound you make fits the song, but is based on the chord and your strum rate. If you are playing hard mode, it adds in moving the chords up and down the fret board at the same time. It gives you cues throughout the song on the types of chords to play, but you can play it anyway you like. Oh, and the solo sections are a hell of a lot better with chords. You can't actually fail at songs anymore, just get bad scores. So if I mess up early, I just go "creative" and start experimenting.

Smart things are included to take advantage of VR and motion control, like including motion in maintaining the power ups, making your mike on the stage live, that kind of stuff.
It lacks any multiplayer aspect, and should probably take advantage of its gameplay style by letting you record your performances - but hey, it's pretty fun.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on April 11, 2017, 12:56:41 PM
I always thought it was funny that Rock Band 4 put you up on stage, considering you had to focus so hard on the fret board that you'd only see the background between songs anyways.
I'm the opposite, I hated that they removed the crowd/venue parts from Rocksmith. Maybe because that's a more natural feel for me while playing - if I'm playing terrible, it actually helps to see bored people reading their phones. And then see the phone guy using it to record me later when I get better. I was hoping they'd have doubled down on that aspect, made a better crowd sim.

But you're right, that kind of game is perfect. No need to move around, solves that problem immediately. Has an existing controller (the guitar/bass). Would only need to set up support for navigating menus.

They made huge leaps forward with 2014 and also Remastered, on the playability side. Maybe we can get some love for the chrome next round...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 12, 2017, 12:33:46 AM
Haven't tried Doom yet, mostly due to wonkiness from running around inside 3d games. Minecraft is only playable for about 30 minutes aa a time.

Ah, really?  Bummer that you're one of the types that can't handle it.  While there's a lot of cool shit that doesn't require it, running around in 3D has got to be the pinnacle of VR stuff.  Case in point; I got Serious Sam The Second Encounter the other day, which has had an official VR conversion (the SS devs are very prolific).  Really, really cool.

Have you tried to...acclimatize yourself to it?  I remember it being rough in the beginning, but I have basically gotten over it completely.  Like getting your sea legs, swabby.

And Rock Band VR, wtf?!! 



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Pennilenko on April 16, 2017, 08:12:38 PM
A bit of interesting info, I think that my rift has cured me of motion sickness.

I've had my rift since September. When I first got it I could only play it for, literally, just a few minutes at a time. It was so bad in fact that I did not even bother trying to play elite in it until this last week. I would play and then take it off as soon as I was getting sick. Little by little the play times increased.

The interesting thing is that this last week I was part of a group business trip requiring four of us to drive. My boss rented the car so he was driving and a manager from a different department was shotgun. I was forced to ride in the back seat. Under normal circumstances, for most of my life actually, I would have been ridiculously ill almost immediately. To my surprise I managed the entire car ride in the back for 4.5 hours, with an indecisive driver, and no motion sickness. I cannot really attribute it to anything other than my "VR" conditioning.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 16, 2017, 11:31:44 PM
That is probably exactly what it is.  Others have likened VR sickness to sea-sickness, and I wouldn't be surprised it if can have an effect there as well.

Rick and Morty releasing in 3 days!  It is probably going to be a let down, but we'll see.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 22, 2017, 04:27:33 AM
Rick and Morty game released, but it is 30 dollars for what is about a 2 hour experience.  Not sure I can quite stomach that.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 29, 2017, 12:12:50 AM
Thumper....what a strange-but-cool little game.  Psychadelic musical bobsledding.  Guitar Hero mixed with Wipeout mixed with Starfox or something.  Really impressive.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 30, 2017, 07:17:22 AM
Haven't mentioned it because I have been assuming it would be shit...but early indicators are that Star Trek: Bridge Crew is awesome.  I imagine I will be able to confirm myself within the next few days, I don't think I will be able to resist, even if it does use Uplay.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: apocrypha on May 30, 2017, 10:04:16 AM
What I've been reading is that the single-player is a bit lacklustre but the multiplayer is great fun. Also it's going to be given away free with Vive sets from now on.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on May 30, 2017, 01:31:33 PM
Haven't mentioned it because I have been assuming it would be shit...but early indicators are that Star Trek: Bridge Crew is awesome.  I imagine I will be able to confirm myself within the next few days, I don't think I will be able to resist, even if it does use Uplay.
It was amusing watching the Yogs make obscene gestures at each other for a couple minutes. Definitely looked like more of a multiplayer thing, can't see it being very much fun in SP.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 30, 2017, 11:53:36 PM
Now I am suddenly wondering if I will pull the trigger on it.  I mean...talking to and playing with other people?  Might be a problem.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on June 02, 2017, 01:35:24 AM
Okay, so I bought it.  Only had about 15 minutes to give it a spin (why do I always buy fucking games on days I don't have time to play them?).  Anyway, first impressions:

- It looks the business.  VR lacks true triple A games, and while we wouldn't normally give two shits about such things, it means something in VR...both in how it looks, but perhaps more so in how optimized it is to run.  It looks AMAZING.  Holy God Damn.
- The Uplay fuss has been no fuss at all.  Pop up screen, activate, game loads.  Done.  May change mind when trying multiplayer.
- Only managed to play halfway through the tutorial for the Tactical Station (and there are three other stations).  Controls are very simple, but I can imagine it will get hectic anyway when trying to coordinate things.

That's it for now, I am planning to give it a few hours at least tonight to see if it is actually fun.  But jesus almighty, does it look nice.  You are literally fucking sitting there on the bridge of the starship.  It cost 50 euro, and I am guessing many people will think it will be worth that price just to sit on the bridge of the Enterprise.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on June 12, 2017, 01:21:16 AM
Have played a bit more Bridge Crew, but only in single player so far.  Pretty cool, if a bit shallow.  It must be a Trek nerd's dream come true.  Anyway, this game was made for the co-op lulz, so I still can't fairly judge it.

In other news, something that will get lost in the shuffle for all you non-VR types:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/611660/Fallout_4_VR/ (http://store.steampowered.com/app/611660/Fallout_4_VR/)

FO4VR coming in October-ish.  Guys, if they are actually pulling this off - as all evidence so far appears to indicate - fuggetaboudit.  As a reminder, the old Doom3 BFG VR mod is basically already robot jesus, and that game is 40 years old or something.  If they get FO4 to work...I won't even know what to do with myself.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on June 25, 2017, 08:16:24 AM
Echo Arena Open Beta (https://www.oculus.com/experiences/rift/991142941007103/) running through 8PM PST tonight. Oculus game/store, so not sure if it works with ReVive.

This game is incredible.  3 vs 3 arena that plays like an Ender's Game training session. You're team basically has to score a disc in a goal, but the arena and movement makes it pretty incredible. Well worth the small download to check out the beta if you have time. Very intense. And I suck horribly at the game but I don't care.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 05, 2017, 05:26:21 AM
Dead Effect 2 VR...I think this is a re-versioning of an existing game, though I had never heard of the series before.  Simply great.  FPS RPG with a surprising amount of depth and polish.  Lootastic.  And in VR, which is the part that makes it great.  Might be better than the Doom mod overall.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on July 10, 2017, 05:21:00 AM
Wow.

Apparently Oculus just went and dropped price on the rift+touch controller for a combined $400?!  I didn't want to to get one of these because I loved the Vive room scale stuff when I tried it, but that price point seems so good.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on July 10, 2017, 08:00:05 AM
Even at $400 I'm like ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I really only want one of these for like moves directly beamed into my brainpan and having a buncha wires hanging out of my shit doesn't help that.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on July 10, 2017, 09:16:47 AM
I think the experience at this point still weighs heavily on personal taste, but the only non-vr games I've touched since getting a Rift are PUBG and ESO (because that's the 'game with wife' game). $400 is a great price that will hopefully drive more people to VR, which is good in general for the consumer tech side. I'm also not upset I paid $600 since I took advantage of the $100 Oculus store coupon deal which coincided with the Oculus and Steam summer sales.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 10, 2017, 09:33:11 AM
I'm not sure I'll ever like the controllers for the kind of games I like to play (open world/builders/strat).

What I really want is just the ability to look around in 3d while using the traditional controls. Would be really nice in 7D2D, half the game is looking over your shoulder to be sure something isn't sneaking up on you...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 10, 2017, 10:03:47 AM
You play Minecraft, no?  MC in VR is an amazing thing.  I only wish I wasn't already tired of that game.

I see your point about the controls, but for the most part traditional gaming and VR gaming is apples vs oranges.  Unless you have tried it (with something worthwhile), you might be surprised at what you'll go along with.  MC for example...it will slow you down, so you wouldn't want to do anything competitive, but for simple world building and exploring?  The controllers are just fine.  And for anything requiring shooting, they are better than fine.

Speaking of controllers and shooting, I engineered a stock that turns my two independent Vive controllers into a single rifle-like device.  Did it primarily for Dead Effect 2 VR, because there is a lot of 2-handed rifle stuff going on in that game, but this will apply to a few other FPS games.  The difference was...profound.  Super pleased, was giggling like a bitch.  Took me about 30 minutes, and put together with stuff laying around the house.  Then went back and applied some additional weight towards the rear of the back-most controller, so that it feels like a proper weighted pistol when using one handed.  I wish I could better convey what you guys are missing.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on July 10, 2017, 11:07:18 AM
The rift works with most of the stuff on Steam right?  Just not the roomscale stuff, although I've ready you an rig that up too.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on July 10, 2017, 11:28:46 AM
The only big issue right now is whether a Vive specific game will support the Touch Controllers properly, though there really aren't that many Vive exclusives (that matter).

I can't imagine any AAA studios releasing anything that wasn't setup for both systems (Fallout 4 - waiting to see). Too small a user base to not incorporate both.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on July 10, 2017, 12:22:11 PM
Speaking of controllers and shooting, I engineered a stock that turns my two independent Vive controllers into a single rifle-like device.

a collapsed shower pole added ot the inside of 3 connected toilet paper tubes taped at the ends isn't "engineering"


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on July 10, 2017, 01:09:01 PM
The rift works with most of the stuff on Steam right?  Just not the roomscale stuff, although I've ready you an rig that up too.
I bought a bunch of games off Steam during the sale and most directly support the Rift, they just don't really 'advertise' that fact but if you look at the 'compatible with' section you'll see if there's direct support. And as Bunk said, if they don't list the rift and use touch controls, it likely works outside of buttons possibly being different and some controller specific visuals can be off. That said I've still got limited experience but that's the gist of all my research prior to purchase.

I also still haven't moved into my larger space with a 3rd sensor, so what I call room scale at this point is a simple 6' x 9' x 7.5H area in the basement, which works flawlessly with 2 sensors. But I just ordered a beefy laptop so I can go somewhat portable and intend to do pole mounted sensors and such, just not there for a few weeks yet.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on July 10, 2017, 02:54:58 PM
You play Minecraft, no?  MC in VR is an amazing thing.  I only wish I wasn't already tired of that game.

I see your point about the controls, but for the most part traditional gaming and VR gaming is apples vs oranges.  Unless you have tried it (with something worthwhile), you might be surprised at what you'll go along with.  MC for example...it will slow you down, so you wouldn't want to do anything competitive, but for simple world building and exploring?  The controllers are just fine.  And for anything requiring shooting, they are better than fine.

Speaking of controllers and shooting, I engineered a stock that turns my two independent Vive controllers into a single rifle-like device.  Did it primarily for Dead Effect 2 VR, because there is a lot of 2-handed rifle stuff going on in that game, but this will apply to a few other FPS games.  The difference was...profound.  Super pleased, was giggling like a bitch.  Took me about 30 minutes, and put together with stuff laying around the house.  Then went back and applied some additional weight towards the rear of the back-most controller, so that it feels like a proper weighted pistol when using one handed.  I wish I could better convey what you guys are missing.


For vanilla MC you might be right, but a pack with a lot of mods just has too many hotkeys for the various machines/armor/magic/etc. and that's without having to type recipes into NEI/JEI to look them up. I'm with Sky; I would love a VR headset that ties mouselook to my head movement, but with a keyboard (+ mouse for menus).


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Tale on July 10, 2017, 07:24:15 PM
Wow.

Apparently Oculus just went and dropped price on the rift+touch controller for a combined $400?!  I didn't want to to get one of these because I loved the Vive room scale stuff when I tried it, but that price point seems so good.

Trying to figure out the cheapest, simplest off-the-shelf combined cost of entry to PC-based VR (machine and headset). Maybe an Asus VivoPC X (https://www.cnet.com/au/products/asus-vivopc-x/preview/) with this $400 Rift combo?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 10, 2017, 11:49:13 PM
Speaking of controllers and shooting, I engineered a stock that turns my two independent Vive controllers into a single rifle-like device.

a collapsed shower pole added ot the inside of 3 connected toilet paper tubes taped at the ends isn't "engineering"

Close!  You left out the foam and the duct tape. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 10, 2017, 11:54:44 PM
You play Minecraft, no?  MC in VR is an amazing thing.  I only wish I wasn't already tired of that game.

I see your point about the controls, but for the most part traditional gaming and VR gaming is apples vs oranges.  Unless you have tried it (with something worthwhile), you might be surprised at what you'll go along with.  MC for example...it will slow you down, so you wouldn't want to do anything competitive, but for simple world building and exploring?  The controllers are just fine.  And for anything requiring shooting, they are better than fine.

Speaking of controllers and shooting, I engineered a stock that turns my two independent Vive controllers into a single rifle-like device.  Did it primarily for Dead Effect 2 VR, because there is a lot of 2-handed rifle stuff going on in that game, but this will apply to a few other FPS games.  The difference was...profound.  Super pleased, was giggling like a bitch.  Took me about 30 minutes, and put together with stuff laying around the house.  Then went back and applied some additional weight towards the rear of the back-most controller, so that it feels like a proper weighted pistol when using one handed.  I wish I could better convey what you guys are missing.


For vanilla MC you might be right, but a pack with a lot of mods just has too many hotkeys for the various machines/armor/magic/etc. and that's without having to type recipes into NEI/JEI to look them up. I'm with Sky; I would love a VR headset that ties mouselook to my head movement, but with a keyboard (+ mouse for menus).

True enough.  But for what it's worth, I am pretty sure you can play it in VR with kb+m.  You just wouldn't be able to see your keyboard, but that presumably wouldn't be the biggest issue.  Probably also can tie movement to mouselook, though most people complain about that in VR I believe.  Independent head movement seems to be the preferred choice.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on July 11, 2017, 07:29:30 AM
WELP. I just bought the Oculus package because:

Amazon Prime Day Deal: Oculus Rift+Touch Controller+$100 Amazon gift card for $400.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on July 11, 2017, 08:07:12 AM
Prime Day is fucking awful to navigate and absolutely not worth my time.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on July 11, 2017, 08:26:04 AM
Prime Day is fucking awful to navigate and absolutely not worth my time.

You can pick "Prime Day" filter from the search menu...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on July 11, 2017, 08:46:40 AM
Prime Day's front page is showing me an ipad case, the echo dot, a rice cooker, a roomba, some luggage,  a ps4 slim bundle, generic grooming supplies and a shitty bose clock radio or something

who the fuck wants to window shop like this

(I don't even know what category the rift would have been under)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on July 11, 2017, 02:00:31 PM
I have to agree with schild on this one. I've tried to shop through Amazon's Prime Day deals and it's fucking awful. Shit is just categorized so broadly and inconsistently that things end up in multiple places and there's no real rhyme or reason for it. It's like trying to window shop from the subway while on acid and meth.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on July 11, 2017, 02:13:39 PM
I guess I don't understand either of you.

You literally select "Prime Day" from the search bar category filter and just put in a keyword of things you'd like to buy.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on July 11, 2017, 02:27:41 PM
Amazon's UX designers are fucking muppets who are either forced to skullfuck every customer with as many cross sell opportunities as possible by the marketing dicks, or they are just literally incapable of understand how the human eye processes information. Even their search results are shit, not only because their database guys also are huffing the paint of too much cross sell, or again, because they just can't understand how normal humans process information. It's absolute overload on every single screen they have.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 11, 2017, 04:55:15 PM
The three things I found were either priced less elsewhere or inferior and I put the better version on my wishlist.

So far I've bought one book with the -$5 code (PRIMEBOOKS17).


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on August 02, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
RoboRecall is hard. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Pennilenko on August 02, 2017, 06:14:34 PM
RoboRecall is hard. 

RoboRecall is fucking awesome.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on August 04, 2017, 12:06:26 AM
Oh fuck.

Echo Arena is awesome too.  Matchmaking sucks but I suspect because there are like 100 people playing at this time of night.

Essentially I spent an hour playing this:

(http://i.imgur.com/TGOzzCn.jpg)

All the social stuff has been amazing so far.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 11, 2017, 01:40:10 PM
Since getting my Rift I have completely gone down the rathole of VR. No longer touch my Xbox One. Upgraded the shit out of my PC. Picked up a wheel and pedals. Got myself an Obutto Ozone gaming cockpit. Signed up for iRacing. Between iRacing and Elite Dangerous (and the various other vr distractions), I barely come up for air. The only non-vr games I play at this point are PUBG and Dark & Light with friends. I'm actually considering selling a bass to buy a full motion sim rig. Don't send help, I don't want it!


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Nebu on August 11, 2017, 02:31:53 PM
Since getting my Rift I have completely gone down the rathole of VR. No longer touch my Xbox One. Upgraded the shit out of my PC. Picked up a wheel and pedals. Got myself an Obutto Ozone gaming cockpit. Signed up for iRacing. Between iRacing and Elite Dangerous (and the various other vr distractions), I barely come up for air. The only non-vr games I play at this point are PUBG and Dark & Light with friends. I'm actually considering selling a bass to buy a full motion sim rig. Don't send help, I don't want it!

As a fellow driving sim enthusiast, what wheel are you using?

Do you like VR better than a 3 screen setup? 



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 11, 2017, 02:45:18 PM
More importantly, how much for what kind of bass? :p

(jk, I just bought an awesome bass recently)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 12, 2017, 03:22:48 AM
Since getting my Rift I have completely gone down the rathole of VR. No longer touch my Xbox One. Upgraded the shit out of my PC. Picked up a wheel and pedals. Got myself an Obutto Ozone gaming cockpit. Signed up for iRacing. Between iRacing and Elite Dangerous (and the various other vr distractions), I barely come up for air. The only non-vr games I play at this point are PUBG and Dark & Light with friends. I'm actually considering selling a bass to buy a full motion sim rig. Don't send help, I don't want it!

As a fellow driving sim enthusiast, what wheel are you using?

Do you like VR better than a 3 screen setup?  



I know this was directed at CaptainNoisy, but what do you mean with this question, maybe I misunderstand?  Because aside from lower graphical fidelity, VR would be better than a 20 screen setup.  I don't do the driving sims right now because I do not have the right setup for it, but assuming we can use space sims as a comparison...I mean, it is apples and watermelons.  In the one scenario, you are removed from the experience and watching your actions mirrored on a two dimensional screen, but are ultimately disconnected from the experience.  In the other, you feel like you are actually in a spaceship flying through space.  It is not just an interesting gimmick, when done right is a profoundly different experience altogether.  

I don't spend as much time in this thread gushing as I could do, mainly because I'm not sure the audience here is so receptive towards it.  But I am, like CN, fully down the rathole.  I will never come out of it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 12, 2017, 10:29:54 AM
I get it, for sure. Even the 3d Vision glasses I used a few years back elevated the experience in a game that was conducive to them. Something like Tomb Raider, where you had a lot of 3d puzzles and were looking for ledges, or hanging off a cliff looking around...just amazing. I'm sure it's even better when you make the next progression of immersion.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 12, 2017, 12:50:38 PM
You might recall I was on that same 3D Vision wave right along with you.  While fun, it was pretty gimmicky and pretty easy to put down and ultimately to drop entirely.  VR is really orders of magnitude of a leap beyond that.  I know with certainty that I will never drop it, at least so long as my vision and body allow me to use it.  Two of my kids are irrecoverably hooked as well. And this is first gen?  Shiiiiiiiit.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 13, 2017, 05:55:14 AM
Got "ReVive" working today, which is an advanced steam VR mod that lets you download titles from the Oculus store and play them through steam and on the Vive.  Downloaded Echo Arena.  Wooooooah.  And for free?  Woah.  Was only in for a short burst and can feel i will have to get my Zero G legs up to snuff....but damn.  So trippy.  And so polished.  ReVive software works great as well, so that's pretty exciting, too.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 14, 2017, 09:54:26 AM
As a fellow driving sim enthusiast, what wheel are you using?

Do you like VR better than a 3 screen setup? 
I have been out of the driving sim space for many years, so I decided to jump back in at reasonable cost until I knew if I'd stick with it. So with that I picked up the Thrustmaster TMX (same as T150 except PC and Xbox compatibility rather than PS4, because I also have an Xbox and Horizon 3, which I'll probably never touch again). It's only a 2 pedal setup but I'm ok with paddle shifting and no auto clutch for now at least. I like sim physics and realism but the lack of clutch isn't going to make or break the experience for me. So that said, and not having a ffb wheel for a few years, it's works perfectly for me. You can replace the pedals with the better version down the road on this model if you want and add a proper shifter too, it only lacks the ability to change out the wheel that you can do with the higher end versions. And this model gets you a mid range wheel setup for under $200.

I was not running a 3 screen rig so no direct comparison. My flat screen rig is a projector and 115" screen roughly. But my feeling is along the lines of Cyrrex's comments... the immersion is just fantastic. Here's a pic of the Ozone immediately after setting it up and before trying it with VR. (http://imgur.com/TsUmknc) So yeah I never had the left/right views before VR.

I'm running a gtx1080 and by default bump screen sampling to 1.5 through the Oculus Tray Tool, with that the graphics in iRacing are sharper and better looking than many other VR games I've played. Truly impressed with the quality in VR. I'm also not a brand fanboy, so I think Oculus or Vive platform will give equal experience, but with the current sale price on Oculus if you don't already have a headset it's a good choice right now. I'm totally happy with the Rift and have used Vive and loved them both. I do like the Rift's built in headphones but have not yet tried the new Vive headphone/headband thing.

Also worth noting on driving game front is Dirt Rally... which is so immersive it's near vomit inducing until you acclimate.

More importantly, how much for what kind of bass? :p
Original pre-Gibson Tobias Basic 5 in Birdseye Maple that I bought new way back when. Serial# in the 100's. If I decide to sell I'd figure a price but my wife is convincing me to not sell it since I really don't need the cash is more of a 'not feel guilty about what I spend on gaming' thing. She's a beauty.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 14, 2017, 10:19:09 AM
Nice bass! I hear you on the wife thing, I love hearing her say 'well, we're not destitute' when I start griping about hobby outlays (my PC has been a little needy, lately, new PSU, UPS and now the lamp for the tv, I'm at $500 without any fun toy factor, wah).

edited to add: Budget won't recover enough to take advantage of that Rift sale, and I think I'd go with the Vive, anyway (makes sense to me, since I primarily game via Steam). Might have to sit this out until the next gen hardware is released. I did see a video of GTA V VR mod, but as amazing as it looked, we're still pretty far into janky implementation mode (teleport movement, cobbled together decouple, etc).

Really looking forward into putting my toe in the pond when the timing is right, though. Almost threw out an old joystick, but maybe I'll keep it in the basement...just in case...


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 14, 2017, 01:10:44 PM
As info, I haven't run into a Steam VR game that gave me any trouble running on Rift. And they recently made it easier in that if you launch any VR game/app outside of Oculus Home (name of their app) it automatically adds a quick launch icon to Oculus Home interface. So basically I no longer need to launch SteamVR then the game, I just launch the Steam game directly. Don't know details, but from the other side there is ReVive which lets Vive folks play all the Oculus Home stuff. So as far as I know, the 'locked to specific platform' is just what the masses think due to marketing, but it doesn't matter so much in the end. Pretty sure you can buy either platform with piece of mind you won't be limited to what you can play.

*edit to say - The Solus Project does crash on launch, but I don't think it's really related to the headset since they fully support both. Also, all said and done, waiting for gen 2 or gen 1.5 is also not a bad idea either if you don't need to jump in now. Like anything, this will only get better.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on August 14, 2017, 03:30:26 PM
The wireless sensors for Vive are awesome though.  It's a bit annoying to run USB cables behind you somehow to get full 360 tracking.

I haven't had any issues with running Steam VR games on Oculus either though.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 15, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
I agree with that. I had to pick up long active USB extensions to get the room scale stuff set up. Luckily 2 mount in the front and 1 in the rear so it's only 1 extra ugly cable. I suppose the flip side is I don't need to worry about where my power outlets are. But yeah, I cannot wait for the tech to advance to wireless. I think it needs to be wireless to really accelerate the adoption rate. It only takes me a minute or 2 to switch cabling between my flat and VR setups, add another 2 minutes to put my contact lenses in because it's way more comfy than wearing glasses.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 15, 2017, 11:28:42 AM
PSA: try it at least once without lenses or glasses.  Depending on your particular issues, it may still be sharp enough for you.  I am -2.5 in both eyes, and I would call it playable (though short of perfect) with no lenses of any kind.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 15, 2017, 12:40:37 PM
I have microscopic vision out to about 8 inches (can see things magnified, it's how I can paint minis without magnification!), so I think I'm well suited to this tech.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 15, 2017, 02:30:15 PM
I tried it without. Rift was no go, Vive was better results. My eyes are bad, I actually wear progressives for glasses but picked up a supply of standard contacts just for Rift usage. I don't mind popping them in, I just hate wearing them all day. Good suggestion though I see lots of folks reporting they are fine without prescription in VR but such is my luck.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on December 28, 2017, 10:04:40 PM
And just when I though I'd finally sworn off MMO's for good, along comes OrbusVR (https://orbusvr.com/). No, this is not any AAA mmo, not even close. But I bought it on a whim last night, started playing today and already have 5 hours into it. I have a feeling I'll be reminiscing about this one in 10-20 years. It's early access, and whether it's worth $40 for you I can't say, but it seems so for me.

Also, Fallout 4 VR (on Rift) is awesome. I really wish I passed on this when it came out and was experiencing it for the first time. Oh well, still fun.

I'm burning unused vacation so I've been getting my VR on more than usual.
  • Finished Lone Echo, which is hands down my best VR experience yet. Loved it. Even had a hair-standing-up-goosebumps moment for me at the end.
  • Soundboxing is fun when I want to work up a sweat while rockin out some tunes.
  • Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes proved to be an awesome VR party game
  • Onward is incredible fun but I'm good for 2 rounds before needing a break or I'm green for the rest of the day. Feel like it's getting better though the more I play.
  • Had to try VRChat because of all these wacky videos floating around. Went in, was impressed with how it's built during the tutorial bits... then joined the Hub... freaked me out more than Second Life did. Not sure I'll do that again.
  • Of course still Elite Dangerous and iRacing because they are incredible with VR

Still a full week left before I go back to work, the sales haven't ended yet, and I am weak (downloaded I Expect You to Die as I typed this, for only 5 bucks)

What have the rest of you folks with VR been playing lately?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on December 29, 2017, 05:27:36 AM
I am playing Fallout 4 VR.  It is simply astounding.

If I can be so bold to suggest, get yourself Nexus and download the all-in-on texture mod.  Great performance and visual boost, I finally have it to where it is what I would call 'acceptable' in terms of fidelity and performance, even though it is reprojecting like a mother.

Also...the lightsaber mod.  Holy mother of crap.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on December 29, 2017, 10:18:56 AM
Haven't tried mods with it yet, just did all the config tweaks.

So something like Vivid Fallout (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/25714/?tab=description) for the textures?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Viin on December 29, 2017, 10:25:51 AM
I got a Vive for Christmas, but I passed on free Fallout 4 download. Might have to see if I can get that back ..

Getting E:D set up for VR is a bit of a pain in the ass, still trying to get VoiceAttack to work consistently.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on December 30, 2017, 02:20:14 AM
Haven't tried mods with it yet, just did all the config tweaks.

So something like Vivid Fallout (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/25714/?tab=description) for the textures?


Yes, exactly.  Once you have that one running, experiment with turning "taa off" in the console.  You get jaggies, but the fidelity improves a ton.  If you can then turn supersampling up far enough, you get rid of the worst of it...Anyway, I have managed to find a sweet spot where it looks nice and is relatively smooth, even with tons of reprojection.

And then the lightsaber.  I have been waiting for exactly this for 35 years. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on December 30, 2017, 08:21:57 AM
I did tweak the hell out of the configs and have it running pretty well. The Vivid retexture looks pretty good, thanks for the tip. I guess I'll have try the light saber mod but I normally just go for "immersive" stuff. Are you using the Lighsaber Renew (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4591) one that is simpler, older, and has more downloads? Or the newer Star Wars - The Light Saber (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/19154) that lets you customize the sabers and stuff? I'm guessing the latter?

I have this running so well now I want to be super careful and picky with the mods I add. That said I'm spending my morning coffee time researching some of the settlement mods since I think expanding on the crafting and settlement stuff could be pretty intersting in VR.

Getting E:D set up for VR is a bit of a pain in the ass, still trying to get VoiceAttack to work consistently.
Just having VoiceAttack setup issues or something with running the game itself? I bought VoiceAttack to use for E:D but haven't bothered configuring it yet honestly. I first played the game on Xbox and since I was so used to a controller I just continue to play that way which gives me all the buttons I need outside of typing to search for systems.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on December 30, 2017, 10:20:56 AM
Yeah, the latter one.  It is cool as hell, but I had to cheat in order to get the Science skills for crafting. I am tempted to restart the game, up the difficulty and then just do a lightsaber run. 

I am also being choosy with the mods, don't want to mess up performance.  I think there is a list out there with the best vr mods.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on December 30, 2017, 03:44:18 PM
I spent the morning researching mods I wanted and that others said would work well without impacting performance. These mods make the game absolutely stunning. I think I'm also going to restart since I put nothing into Strength but I think the perks for weapon bashing and hip fire accuracy will be huge the way I'm playing currently. Even though I tweaked VATS I'm on the fence with how it's working.

Mod list in no particular order:
  • Darker Nights
  • Homemaker - Expanded Settlements
  • Interiors Enhanced - Darker Ambient Light and Fog
  • Realistic Ragdoll Force
  • Star Wars - The Light Saber
  • True Storms: Wasteland Edition
  • Vivid Fallout - All In One

Very happy with performance and visuals, so I'm good with this list. Time to dig in and just play.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Viin on December 30, 2017, 09:56:14 PM
Just having VoiceAttack setup issues or something with running the game itself? I bought VoiceAttack to use for E:D but haven't bothered configuring it yet honestly. I first played the game on Xbox and since I was so used to a controller I just continue to play that way which gives me all the buttons I need outside of typing to search for systems.

Honestly, I think I'm just trying to do too much at once. Training it to your voice is a bit of a pain, then remembering what all the commands are .. I can't easily look at the manual of commands when in VR goggles, so I basically made it hard for myself. That, coupled with the fact that my HOTAS setup has lost it's key bindings in ED, has me annoyed - if I wasn't so impatient it wouldn't be a problem!  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MisterNoisy on January 01, 2018, 11:30:55 AM
I was on the fence about VR, but MS selling headsets for $200 including motion controllers last month got me to jump.  So far, I've played Arizona Sunshine, Everspace, Job Sim, The Lab and UltraWings, along with some odd stuff from the Windows Store.  I've heard that the WMR implementation for Fallout 4 VR is still a bit wonky, so I'm holding off until it improves, but everything I've tried from Steam has worked well so far.  Probably picking up E:D when I can settle on a HOTAS and GORN looks like retarded fun.

I have to say that for a budget headset built to a price point, Microsoft and their partners really nailed it.  Both the controller and headset tracking are really damned good as long as you have a well-lit play space, and not having to set up additional 'outside-in' tracking crap in the room is great, particularly when you want to take it with you to show friends.  One cable with a single USB3 and HDMI and about five minutes of one-time setup and you're off to the races.  I also like that it uses a 'headband' style arrangement similar to PSVR and that it flips up, so it's lightweight, comfortable and works well with glasses.

While MS's sale is over, WMR headsets with controllers are still pretty cheap on Amazon:

HP for $226 (https://smile.amazon.com/HP-Mixed-Reality-Headset-Controllers/dp/B077MF8TQ7/)

Acer for $226 (https://smile.amazon.com/Acer-AH101-D8EY-Windows-Wireless-Controllers/dp/B075PVLN2P/)

Dell for $237 (https://smile.amazon.com/Dell-Virtual-Reality-Controllers-Compatible/dp/B077R65C4D)

Lenovo for $264 (https://smile.amazon.com/Lenovo-Explorer-Wireless-Controllers-G0A20002WW/dp/B0764GKZ15)


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: jth on April 04, 2018, 10:42:39 AM
So, Skyrim VR (PC) is out. Spent most of yesterday playing Skyrim modding.

It seems to be compatible out of the box with pretty much all Skyrim SE mods which don't require SKSE (SKSE support for Skyrim VR is unlikely to happen), only exceptions are those that mess with the UI like Alternate Start (it'll still work with console commands though) and those which involve player character animations/movement (as there's no 3rd person player character). I currently have 50+ mods installed with no issues, even some Oldrim mods work. NMM works but needs some extra steps in installation and one manual file copy after each time you have made changes.

Performance seems to be surprisingly good, with my old trusty i7-2600K and GTX1070oc, I can run it at maximum settings with all the essential HD texture/lighting/graphics mods without any noticeable lag.

And it's pretty damn incredible visually, especially in nighttime once you have your lighting and weather mods set up. UI controls are slightly odd but not too hard to get used to. Melee and magic work pretty good with the Touch controllers, haven't tried archery yet but some people seem to love it, some not so much, I'll test it tonight. I don't get motion sickness so I'm using full locomotion with the comfort options turned off.

I can see this game eating up most of my free time for the next several months.




Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 04, 2018, 11:56:47 AM
Haven't tried any mods yet, but yeah...they did a nice job with this one.  Surprisingly good on day one without any real fiddling.  Finding that it is a bit tough of my stomach, probably because I have not been in VR enough lately.  Will have to ease my way into it.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on April 05, 2018, 07:57:01 PM
Agree they did a good job, runs great and controls great. I got exactly what I expected with this title, even better as I wasn't holding my breath for well done Rift support. Skyrim is one of my all time favorites and to play it in VR is incredible.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 07, 2018, 09:54:55 AM
Okay, got it running the way I want it (waaaaaaay less fiddly than FO4 VR).  As much as I love FO4...

This is basically Robot Jesus.  I don’t know else to say.  I envy anyone who has never played Skrim and gets to experience it like this for the first time.  It is buttery smooth and looks surprisingly crisp.

I am playing Destruction in the early going.  Man oh man. So amazing. It never occured to me that you would be able aim and cast with each hand totally independently. 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on April 08, 2018, 09:16:46 PM
I playing the same, mostly destruction with a little conjuration thown in. And the bow is satisfying so I toss that in for kicks now and then, mostly super long distance sniping. Yeah the both hands independently is awesome, a whirling flaming electrical tornado of death I am. I played 6 hours today alone, not counting breaks, which is a lot of VR in a day for me.

So when you say you got it the way you want, you mean mods? It's been running so well I've been afraid to mess with mods yet. The only thing I've done so far is add the dll for the better 3d headphone sound.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 09, 2018, 12:01:45 AM
Mostly what I meant is finding the sweet spot with the supersampling, the disabling of TAA and Dynamic resolution and so on.  Mostly it was an issue because there is a bug when disabling the TAA (and maybe with the DR) that causes menus to disappear, etc., so I had to figure out how to fix that.  Which, by the way, I highly recommend you do if your machine has the chops...kill the TAA and DR, turn SS up as much as you can manage, looks waaaaay better especially in the distance.  The fix is that you need to make sure you leave on the FOV comfort fix for turning, for some reason that fixes the TAA bug.

I did put mods on yesterday.  I don't have a full listing here, but things like the vivid weather, sounds, immersive this and that, some better textures, and one of the popular character mods that add variation on the NPCs (and, bless them, nudity).  All is well with the mods, only thing I am unsure of is an improved flora and fauna mod...makes things look nice, but almost too colorful and introducing a bit of choppiness.  On balance, I would say the mods are working just fine.  Vortex seems to be the way to go.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on April 09, 2018, 12:36:10 PM
I'm lucky as somehow I didn't encounter that menu bug and I did disable TAA and DR, also disabled the FOV comfort thing, maybe it's a Vive thing? I'm on Rift and forget which you have. I have a beefy machine and maxed out just about everything, SS left at default in game and forced 1.0 in SteamVR, as I prefer to use Oculus Tray Tool to futz with settings like that.

I think most of my hesitation in modding is that I had modded the hell out of Fallout 4 VR, and changed loads of ini settings, then they pushed a patch that changed the ini that stores a lot of those tweaks and broke it all. I never felt like spending another weekend to reapply everything so haven't returned to it yet. Nervous to end up in a similar situation with Skyrim. But then it's a different animal in that it actually supports Rift, where Fallout doesn't. Something to make the nights darker would be cool but that's my only gripe, and it barely bugs me. I'm sure I'll toss some mods in at some point I'm just going to give everyone else more time to flesh them out as I'd rather play than tweak at this point.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on April 10, 2018, 10:43:11 AM
I'm running about 30 cosmetic mods right now. Still tweaking settings for the perfect balance on graphics, but damn did installing improved textures make a difference.

You are dead on though Cyrexx, this is the game that has finally justified buying the Rift for me. The archery is great - the thrill of doing a sudden 180 while drawing, to pull of a an arrow to the head of the wolf that snuck up on me in mid leap. Yeah, its awesome. I've only had it for a few days, and Skyrim is already my most played Rift game.

The quality of this release really shows what a total embarrassment Fallout VR was.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 11, 2018, 12:34:20 AM
I am not doing any archery at the moment, because I seem to suffer from the "archery bug" that hits some people.  I am not sure if it is really a bug, but it is a mis-alignment of where the bow is in reference to the aiming point.  The nocking of the arrow is a bit off as well.  But oh well, until they figure out how to adjust that, I am perfectly happy using one handed and Destruction.  So satisfying.

What improved textures mod are you using?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on April 11, 2018, 09:50:37 AM
Yeah, I've been putting up with the fact that my hands are too low on both the bow and arrow. Stopped noticing after a while.

Been using the Skyrim 2017 textures, and the WICO overhaul for the NPCs.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 06, 2018, 09:07:13 AM
Beat Saber.  Lightsaber rhytmn game.  Immensely satisfying, scratches so many itches. Quite a workout.  Hold sabers reverse grip for increased awesomeness.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on June 25, 2018, 03:11:07 PM
Picked up Beat Saber yesterday. Yeah, that's addictive as hell and a great workout. Blows Rockband VR out of the water, because it actually uses the VR environment as part of the game, instead of window dressing.

Also been fiddling with FO4 VR again, now that they patched in proper touch control schemes. Its amazing how many little details I notice in VR that I totally ignored in my 15 some odd vanilla play-throughs.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on June 25, 2018, 05:33:16 PM
Fuck Rockband anyway, but I would love a nice VR Rocksmith, if they used the original Rocksmith-style venues instead of the new abstracted garbage.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on June 26, 2018, 01:02:08 AM
Picked up Beat Saber yesterday. Yeah, that's addictive as hell and a great workout. Blows Rockband VR out of the water, because it actually uses the VR environment as part of the game, instead of window dressing.

Also been fiddling with FO4 VR again, now that they patched in proper touch control schemes. Its amazing how many little details I notice in VR that I totally ignored in my 15 some odd vanilla play-throughs.

You probably know this already, but get the mod installed. Custom songs galore. Oh, and Kyle Ren sabers and whatnot.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on June 26, 2018, 10:36:06 AM
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV1sw4lfwFw might have finally sold me on a VR set.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on June 26, 2018, 11:11:16 AM
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV1sw4lfwFw might have finally sold me on a VR set.

Oh. My. God.

That just looks stupidly fun. As in all afternoon don't stop until you drop fun.

And thanks VR makers for coming up with something that will make me look more goofily insane than even Rockband.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Viin on June 26, 2018, 03:02:04 PM
Just lock the door, no one will see you.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on June 26, 2018, 11:36:50 PM
This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV1sw4lfwFw might have finally sold me on a VR set.

It's super fun.  The sound feed back you get when hit a block together with the sabers is just fantastic.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on July 05, 2018, 11:49:15 AM
Haven't picked up Beat Saber yet but will eventually. Got back into iRacing and Elite Dangerous with some Skyrim VR thrown in the mix when I feel like standing up to play. Also picked up Moss, gave it about an hour but I've been sick in between travel so put this aside for another weekend when I'm in the mood. It's a fun and cute little game.

Had to extend a business trip 2 weeks ago and was bored so I picked up an Oculus Go, pretty good device for what it is. Mostly playing Vendetta Online, Pinball FX2 and watching Netflix. I'm impressed with this thing. I got over my fear of looking too nerdy and ended up playing a whole lot of pinball on my long flight back from SFO. Bonus my wife didn't disown me after sitting next me on that flight! This is my new travel entertainment device of choice for sure.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Khaldun on July 10, 2018, 09:24:32 PM
We got a Vive.

I...it's really interesting. It is so far not pulling me to it like an irresistable force, but neither does it seem like a one-day wonder.

I found movement in Skyrim and Fallout disappointing, though. Direct movement is the first thing ever in a computer game to make me feel serious nausea, but the teleport is also unsatisfying. Among other things, it feels like it makes it very very hard to fall. In a way movement becomes less kinetic and felt which is an odd consequence of full VR. But combat is holy shit visceral.

The movement problem feels to me like it's just a technological iteration of an unsolved problem that has cropped up with Kinect etc.: there is no way to get rid of a control scheme that is not physical and visceral in games. Even if you were in a full haptic suit along with your Vive, the problem would still be there--I'd still have to master walking/running in place, or I'd have to be in a huge 40 X 40 room with soft walls (hello, Holodeck). Somewhere in even the best implementation of VR, you're going to have to deal with a different uncanny valley, which is that most of us are not buff Tamriel warriors or canny postapocalyptic snipers wandering through the ruins of Boston. An ordinary movement even in a fully haptic VR is still going to have to magnify or be different than the actual movement I make--which means every movement I make has to be memorized as a control-scheme equivalent of something I want to see happen in the VR world. So I feel like the next generation of games made specifically for VR have to have smart solutions to this problem that aren't just "wait for better tech".

In some ways the best part of the experience so far has been the Google drawing program. That feels potentially revolutionary as a creative interface.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 11, 2018, 10:32:42 AM
Movement in games is about 100% of why I'm not onboard yet.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 12, 2018, 12:29:04 AM
Like it or not, the direct or "sliding" movement is the answer.  The only real problem with it is the nausea it causes, in all other ways it is vastly superior.  The solution is to essentially either work up your tolerance to it (which is 100% possible for most people), or simply admit that you are probably too old to do so and that VR gaming will only have a limited appeal for you.  I had real problems in the early days, where playing certain things for more than 10 minutes would have me feeling horrible for hours.  Slowly but surely, those issues began to disappear.  I think the Doom 3 BFG mod helped a lot, because there was a good FPS game set in tight corridors running at a perfect framerate, and it was enough fun that I was willing to work through it.

Nobody our age can just jump into a full movement FPS like Skyrim (and even less so with FO4 due to its performance issues).  You have to get your VR legs first, and it may take months.  Once you do, it is totally worth it and totally amazing.  You will not want for another type of movement at that point.  Scaling High Hrothgar in full sliding VR is in incomparable experience, save perhaps for going off trail on the way back down.  Try jumping off one of those little cliffs and report back to me that it wasn't kinetic =)



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on July 12, 2018, 09:32:26 AM
For movement in Skyrim and Fallout, check out Natural Locomotion. It sounds hokey, but really works quite well. Basically, swinging your arms back and forth makes you walk forward. It gives smooth motion a more natural feel.

Note also, just about everyone is bothered by smooth motion at first. Most people tend to get their sea legs after a while.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 12, 2018, 10:11:37 AM
I went through the acclimatization period with 3D with nvidia's 3D Vision, so I'm aware of the need for that. Given my experience there, I'd love to see something like Tomb Raider in VR.

I'm just waiting for the tech behind it to shake out and mature a bit. Ditto with the headsets.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 12, 2018, 10:55:07 AM
I'm with ya on the headsets. They need to keep dropping in weight for a while for me to be comfortable. And I must have a really sweaty nose, because every enclosed headset I've ever tried fogs up fast and stays that way.

Come to think of it I always had the problem snorkeling too -- I'm constantly having to clear my mask when other people just seem to be fine after a few minutes.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 12, 2018, 01:24:16 PM
Interesting point, I'm the same way. For construction projects, I had to go to a full respirator mask whether I need it or not so I don't fog up my safety glasses.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 13, 2018, 03:21:04 AM
I used to have the same problem with fogging up the Vive lenses all the time, until I found a simple and in hindsight obvious solution....turn the thing on, and let it sit for 5 or 10 minutes.  The screen will heat itself up enough, and presto, no fogging.  I literally never have this problem any more, even during more intense sessions.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Khaldun on July 13, 2018, 08:16:02 AM
We put on headbands, and that helps too.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Nija on July 13, 2018, 09:19:47 AM
Halo branded headbands are good if you're headbandless at the moment. I have a few that I use around the yard and garage.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: jth on December 07, 2018, 10:47:14 AM
Now that a fully working SkyUI is finally available for Skyrim VR and also a lot more compatibility and QoL patches have appeared, I played the modding game again this week and managed to get a working setup that I'm very happy with. Played for 4-5 hours again from the beginning, but I noticed that while it's really awesome, it's also a bit overwhelming in a way that I need to take breaks every 1.5-2 hours.

With that in mind I tried Flatrim again to compare, copied the same mod setup (easy with Vortex) and added ENB. It turns out after having played VR, Flatrim now feels completely meh and all interest was lost in just half an hour. So VR version it will be from now on, maybe this time I'll eventually even finish the main story.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on December 10, 2018, 01:34:19 AM
Now that a fully working SkyUI is finally available for Skyrim VR and also a lot more compatibility and QoL patches have appeared, I played the modding game again this week and managed to get a working setup that I'm very happy with. Played for 4-5 hours again from the beginning, but I noticed that while it's really awesome, it's also a bit overwhelming in a way that I need to take breaks every 1.5-2 hours.

With that in mind I tried Flatrim again to compare, copied the same mod setup (easy with Vortex) and added ENB. It turns out after having played VR, Flatrim now feels completely meh and all interest was lost in just half an hour. So VR version it will be from now on, maybe this time I'll eventually even finish the main story.


Haha, Flatrim.  Curious about what mods you are referring to that might be new?  I hear you though, you just can't go back to playing these things in pancake mode once you have done it in VR. 

On a related note, I dived back into FO4VR over the weekend.  I always seem to have to fiddle with the graphics settings, but I found a good sweetspot where performance and visuals were both good.  Anyway, I basically never use the built in headphones, and instead normally rely on my 5.1 surround setup to do the job.  Now that I live on my own, I can actually crank it up to, shall we say, significant levels of immersion.  I have mentioned before that I have the lightsabers mod for FO4 which is goddamned awesome in VR.  The combination of a very loud sound system while carrying around and fighting with an extremely convincing Sith red lightsaber in a virtual apocalyptic landscape in VR and murdering ghouls is now the absolute pinnacle of any gaming experience I have ever had.  Just oh my fucking christ.

This is the kind of thing that makes me look at the cost of a Vive Pro and dropping 3500 USD on a new computer and thinking to myself "you know, that's probably totally worth it!"

I live in a condo-like place, and I can only imagine what my neighbors are thinking, assuming any sound gets through the wall.  She's thinking "fuck that sound is annoying".  He must be thinking "fuck that sounds like lightsabers I wanna play!".


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: jth on December 11, 2018, 02:50:39 PM
Curious about what mods you are referring to that might be new?

The biggest change is the fully working SkyUI, a lot of older SSE mods depend on that and are now usable in VR. Also there's a new VR compatible physics mod (CBPC). Then the small stuff, VR compatibility patches for more older mods and VR mods like visual noise reduction, health bar / HUD fixes etc.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on January 07, 2019, 08:41:48 AM
Speaking of mods, for both FO4VR and SkyrimVR:  Get the "No Stagger" mods, and then find the fMeleeCooldownMultiplier in you .ini files (or Bilago's tool) and lower it to 0.2

There are a couple others, but doing these two things make the melee exponentially more awesome.  You can now be a literal whirlwind of death, with is insanely fun.  Better with lightsabers, but was still cool as shit with just regular swords as well.  You'll end up cranking up the difficulty a lot as well.

I thought SkyUI was still too buggy for VR?


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on January 07, 2019, 08:58:24 AM
In FO4VR last night, walking through Boston when I turned to see a Mutie Suicider staring at me from about 50 feet away. I panicked and hit VATS (I never use it in VR) and snapped a shot off at his arm, blowing the nuke.

Watching a nuke detonate in slow-mo from what I figure was maybe five feet outside of the blast radius was an interesting experience. Could literally see the flames rolling out towards me along with a spreading debris cloud. Would recommend.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: jth on January 09, 2019, 03:22:24 PM
I thought SkyUI was still too buggy for VR?

The original SkyUI was, and from what I gather the SkyUI team wasn't interested in fixing it for VR, but they released the source code so someone else could work on it. And someone else did, so we now have SkyUI-vr:

https://github.com/Odie/skyui-vr/releases


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on January 16, 2019, 02:36:39 AM
I have found something of a "sweetspot" with my current mods in Skyrim and am on a relatively new playthrough.  Here's the gist:

- I don't really consider it mandatory in VR, but I am doing the HD texture mod, just landscapes.
- Find a good guide for how to adjust the .ini mods to get all the visuals and LODs like they should (reference:  The Lightweight Lazy List on reddit, pretty good guide for all kinds of stuff, though not all the mods seem to play together as advertised.  I would recommend doing ALL of the .ini tweaks in this guide, they got it spot on)
- Crank up the supersampling in Steam VR to at least 1.8.
- Rich merchants, because fuck not being able to sell stuff.
- As mentioned earlier, fix the melee cooldown.  It is game changing.
- Get the No Stagger mod.  The melee cooldown is probably more important, but in combination these two things are GREAT.
- Darker Nights and Darker Interiors (or whatever they call that last one).  You don't necessarily have to pick the darkest setting, but it is a great improvement.  I actually often sleep until dark, just because the game is much better that way.
- Magicka Sabers.  Role play some ancient Sith asshole or whatever.
- Apocalypse.  New spells galore.
- Ordinator.  More and better perks.  Needs a VR Extender mod
- Immersive Creatures.  Adds bunch of scary shit to the world.  
- Turn up the difficulty.  I think I am actually on the Master setting now, and I never really went past Adept in Flatrim mode.
- Get the "Sofia" follower mod.  She is legit awesome, hilarious, and easy on the eyes to say the least.  Give Sofia a lightsaber.


You can add much more to this, but essentially this is a decent base if you want to live out every childhood fantasy you ever had.  The enemies get more dangerous by far (you can make them moreso with the Vigor mod, but that may have been causing me conflicts so I removed it), but so do you, to put it mildly.  One knock on SkyrimVR in the early days was that the melee sucked, but this categorically eliminates that problem and turns it into the best melee in any video game that ever was, because it is now a more or less a mirror of your own physical actions.  It isn't perfect, nor can it be given the lack of total haptic feedback, but VR is all about convincing your brain that it is realistic, and lightsabers actually go a long way in addressing that issue, because you intuitively "know" that they don't work the same way as steel and iron.  The two main problems are the lack of a good blocking system (but who cares, offense is the best defense in this case), and the fact that the "shout" button is assigned to the right grip on the Vive wand.  I find myself frequently (and sometimes awesomely) triggering a shout when I don't want to because of the insane swing pacing and sheer energy I put into it.  It sorta takes shouts off the table, but there may well be a soluton out there for remapping, no idea.

It really is amazing.  And it kinda takes for granted how accurate the Vive tracking is, it really is incredible that it can manage it at all, let alone so precisely.  


Edit:  The follower's name is Sofia, not Sonia.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 01, 2019, 06:21:34 AM
Valve has been working silently on a hew HMD, and it appears now they will be releasing it in May.  Very little is known (and next to nothing confirmed), but it is commonly believed to have a better Field of View and a significant increase in pixels over the original Vive.  If both are true and also significant increases, then this is the first true Gen 2 headset for all intents.  It may also include the famed Knuckles controllers, though it may not be simultaneous.  AND....it would be a bit strange for Valve to make this release without also releasing at least one of the 3 VR titles they have been working on.  It has never been confirmed that they are doing a version of HLVR...but they totally must be doing something big like that. 

There are a number of other HMDs releasing in the near future.  The hardware is charging ahead at full steam.  Now if they would only get more developers working on some AAA stuff, that'd be nice.

But who am I kidding.  If Valve releases something with a better FOV and higher resolution, I will totally be dumping cash into both it and at least a 2080 RTX.  Just to play Fallout and Skyrim if nothing else.



Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on April 15, 2019, 01:55:18 AM
Update to the above:  Information and pre-orders will be coming in early May, actual release in early June.  

Trying out a new little game called Blade & Sorcery.  It feels like a more serious attempt on something like Gorn.  Weighty, visceral melee combat and surprisingly well done.  If you have a dagger or a rapier, you can swing and stab somewhat to your heart's content, but it will have less impact on your opponent and will possibly get knocked out of your hand.  Take a broadsword and those problems will go away and you can even hack off limbs...although you will swing it more slowly.  Weapons make impact and stop in their tracks, and funnily enough, your body will adapt to that - you won't swing through on something that gets blocked or hacks into a limb (as opposed to lightsabers in Skyrim, where I will swing through with reckless abandon, which has its own appeal).

Fun stuff.  There is ranged stuff, and magic, two-handed weapons and so on, but I can't tell if there is any actual depth here.  Feels like a melee stabbing simulator.  20 bucks on steam....or one can find it through more nefarious means.  Not sure it is worth 20, but it would be a party favorite for sure.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: jth on April 30, 2019, 05:53:01 PM
Valve Index pre-orders open tomorrow, shipping by June 28. 1079€ for the whole package (headset, controllers, 2 base stations).

The specs look really nice, and with physical IPD adjustment it will actually be usable by people like me, unlike the new Oculus models.

Store page: https://store.steampowered.com/valveindex

Product page and specs: https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/index





Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on April 30, 2019, 07:25:08 PM
you mean $749 (or I guess the bloated version is $999).

For a second I thought it was $1200+ and I was like "u high"

but no, u euro


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: cironian on April 30, 2019, 08:11:58 PM
you mean $749 (or I guess the bloated version is $999).

If you don't have a Vive already, the "bloated" version is the only one you can use, isn't it? Otherwise you will not have any base stations.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 01, 2019, 12:06:36 AM
Wow, lots to unpack with that list of specs.  Needs a bit closer look, but this looks like the big leap people were anticipating it to be.  Their description of the FOV makes me scratch my head.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 01, 2019, 11:11:17 AM
you mean $749 (or I guess the bloated version is $999).

For a second I thought it was $1200+ and I was like "u high"

but no, u euro

Maybe I have been drinking too much....but it is 1200, no?

Pretty steep, more than I paid for the full Vive package a couple years ago.  I am currently staring at the pre-order screen as it counts down.  What to do, what to do.  On the one hand, the Vive has been worth every bit that I paid for it, and more.  A thousand bucks or whatever I paid for it, and way more entertainment for the buck than any piece of consumer electronics.  And I have lots.  So who am I kidding? 


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on May 01, 2019, 11:14:15 AM
I'll likely dip in the pool with this one...but I'm not pre-ordering it for v1 hardware  :awesome_for_real:

If they nail it out of the gate, I'll likely pick one up on black friday.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 01, 2019, 11:24:38 AM
The foolish part of my is rationalizing that there will only be v1 hardware (that was true of the Vive), and maybe that is correct in a sense.  Oculus took all those risks, everyone else is now making incremental improvements.  And if, for example, there are comfort issues or whatever, they will not make a v2, they will sell upgraded parts to swap out.  That seems to be the model now for this stuff.

The better argument is that the price will inevitably drop, especially as there seems to be a bunch of HMDs coming out this year.  The hardware market for VR is really booming.  Software.......meh.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 01, 2019, 12:10:43 PM
Aaaaaaaaaaaand I managed to hold out for seven whole minutes.  Or more accurately, seven minutes of refreshing until it finally accepted my order.


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on May 01, 2019, 12:30:47 PM
i did not buy this shit


Title: Re: Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 01, 2019, 12:50:29 PM
i did not buy this shit

Shocker


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on May 01, 2019, 01:45:12 PM
it doesn't even come with a game


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 01, 2019, 01:51:59 PM
True.  Valve has 3 in production, at least one of which is coming this year.  Even money that one of those will be a HL title, but I would not personally bet on it. 


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Bunk on May 02, 2019, 11:05:44 AM
I'm in wait and see mode. The Rift S isn't a big enough upgrade to invest in, though the Index might be. They don't even ship to Canada currently though, so I can be patient.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 02, 2019, 11:44:14 AM
Well, according to Redit, it all sold out pretty quickly, so next shipments are like August or September or something.  And yeah, no Canada for some reason.

Early hands-on reviews I have seen have been very positive.  I am feeling okay about this so far.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on May 02, 2019, 01:07:21 PM
The hands-on are suspicious but more than one specifically said: "This is a giant leap we were waiting for".


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on May 02, 2019, 01:13:02 PM
without an omnidirectional treadmill, any leap is bullshit


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on May 02, 2019, 07:06:28 PM
i don't want a treadmill, i want one with a sort if reverse AR that can show me the normal VR image with my keyboard and hands overlayed in, so I can type and generally use the keyboard as appropriate to the PC master race while in VR.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on May 02, 2019, 07:42:36 PM
i don't want a treadmill, i want one with a sort if reverse AR that can show me the normal VR image with my keyboard and hands overlayed in, so I can type and generally use the keyboard as appropriate to the PC master race while in VR.

This is me too. I don't want to be flailing around with swords or having to actually do spin kicks in VR. I want to sit calmly on my sofa while looking around in 3-D.

Which would limit me to Elite:Dangerous VR, as far as I can tell now. With an invisible keyboard (which is not *that* bad -- I can touch type).


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 02, 2019, 11:56:39 PM
Knowing what I know now, I am not sure I really would want a treadmill.  The room scale implementation already has you standing a lot, and depending on the game, squatting a lot.  It tires you out.  I am in good shape, but sneaking around Skyrim for an hour or so will tire me out.  A treadmill sounds fun for short bursts, but I dunno.

And you SAY you don't want to flail around with swords, but maybe that's because you haven't tried it?  It doesn't necessarily replace your other kinds of gaming (I myself am using more time on non VR stuff these days)...it is a different thing entirely.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on May 02, 2019, 11:59:43 PM
i don't want a treadmill, i want one with a sort if reverse AR that can show me the normal VR image with my keyboard and hands overlayed in, so I can type and generally use the keyboard as appropriate to the PC master race while in VR.

Oh, I definitely just want to use my mouse and keyboard in vr

but for the full experience, I wouldn't want anything less than omnidirection treadmill

that's the "big leap" that matters


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on May 03, 2019, 12:14:15 AM
i don't want a treadmill, i want one with a sort if reverse AR that can show me the normal VR image with my keyboard and hands overlayed in, so I can type and generally use the keyboard as appropriate to the PC master race while in VR.

This is me too. I don't want to be flailing around with swords or having to actually do spin kicks in VR. I want to sit calmly on my sofa while looking around in 3-D.

Which would limit me to Elite:Dangerous VR, as far as I can tell now. With an invisible keyboard (which is not *that* bad -- I can touch type).

All the new systems have passthrough.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 03, 2019, 12:19:18 AM
Yeah, the Index is being launched with dual cameras.  People are currently scratching their heads because Valve hasn't told them what to use it for, but I assume it can be used eventually both as simple passthrough or for more complicated AR applications.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on May 03, 2019, 10:26:36 AM
One thing I liked about the Index controller teaser, looks like a first step toward more complex hand controls. I think that's another important step in the virtual space (though I'm in the "I want to use my traditional controls, just with a VR display" camp). Gestures are a natural step, gloves with more sensors, maybe even multiple controller layouts. Go all utility belt, sheath your sword controller and pull out your gun controller.

Anyway, looking forward to the Cyrrex report in advance of black friday :)


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 03, 2019, 11:18:17 AM
AND YOU WILL HEAR PLENTY

I am of two minds about the new controllers, because the wands are probaby better for some things.  Swords for one.  But more complex controls going forward is a good thing.  And I wonder how much one can mix and match.  Change controllers on the fly?

They say there is perceptable lag with the new controllers, but that it is no biggie.  We will see.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on May 03, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
I'll probably grab a Quest when they release at the end of the month.

I just got back into VR and I can't fucking stand having wires.  But games like Beat Saber, Eleven Table Tennis and Windlands really show some amazing experiences for 1 hour sessions.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on May 03, 2019, 03:02:11 PM
Knowing what I know now, I am not sure I really would want a treadmill.  The room scale implementation already has you standing a lot, and depending on the game, squatting a lot.  It tires you out.  I am in good shape, but sneaking around Skyrim for an hour or so will tire me out.  A treadmill sounds fun for short bursts, but I dunno.

And you SAY you don't want to flail around with swords, but maybe that's because you haven't tried it?  It doesn't necessarily replace your other kinds of gaming (I myself am using more time on non VR stuff these days)...it is a different thing entirely.

Games like Beat Saber do look a blast, but I see me playing them more like I play Rockband now -- infrequently, when I'm stuck inside but with a lot of energy (wintertime usually), and when nobody else is in the house. For regular gaming after a tiring day I want to be a couch potato with my dogs piled around me, but in 3-D.

Hearing that practical passthrough is a thing really makes me perk up with interest. And a lightweight VR that enabled good quality Augmented Reality will get my wallet open in a hurry.

I don't think we're there yet, but I will also be looking forward to the Cyrrex review these upcoming holidays!


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: MrHat on May 03, 2019, 04:08:40 PM
Hearing that practical passthrough is a thing really makes me perk up with interest. And a lightweight VR that enabled good quality Augmented Reality will get my wallet open in a hurry.

I don't think we're there yet, but I will also be looking forward to the Cyrrex review these upcoming holidays!

Here's what I was talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/bkbn0s/quest_boundary_passthrough_is_really_useful_to/


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Samwise on May 03, 2019, 05:27:46 PM
I haven't bought VR gear yet because I've been kinda waiting for the second generation of this stuff so they'd have a chance to apply the lessons they learned from the first round.  The headsets with features like the off-ear speakers look really nice; this might be the level of polish I've been waiting for.  I too will be waiting for the Black Friday sales and some more reviews though.   :grin:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 04, 2019, 01:42:23 AM
Passthrough like what is in that video is basically already a thing, or at least can be done with the existing tech.  The Index will have stereo cameras, so there is no reason you cannot do this and a whole lot more with AR.  As with most things VR, the hardware is ahead of the software.  It is more a question of when and if developers will leverage what is already there.  

Mandella, you put your finger on something noteworthy.  VR is not the thing you do when you want to come home and relax.  It is not relaxing.  For newcomers, it will fuck with your mind in more ways than one.  It causes some eye strain.  It is not terribly comfortable.  It usually has you standing for long periods.  Some games will physically tire you out.  Some games will make you sweat.  While it is still video gaming in every sense, it would be fair to say it is a different experience in almost every way...it is more like taking on an additional hobby, rather than an upgrade of your current gaming experience.  It is just more visceral in every sense.

There are still lots of more relaxing sit-down experiences.  But even those are intense and will wear you out.  And that´s before we ever talk about, ahem, porn.

I am actually REALLY interested in the off-ear speakers.  I dislike using the headphones, and even with the deluxe audio strap for the Vive, I do not use them.  I choose to forego the convenience and the directional sound in favor of using my surround receiver instead.  If I am going to play Sith Lord wandering the wastes in Fallout, I want to feel that shit in the soles of my feet.  But the off-ear stuff...if it sounds as good as they say, and maybe I can rig my subwoofer to play at the same time?  Well that would be interesting.

Last but not least, it is worth noting that Valve says they are working on 3 VR titles.  They say that they will be releasing a “flagship” game sometime in 2019.  It is a good bet that at least one of those games is HL, Portal or L4D.  I am thinking it will be Portal.  Not only does that seem like the perfect kind of game for VR, but they already have made a bunch of shit using similar art assets.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on May 04, 2019, 01:46:29 AM
valve can't count to 3, only 2 of those games will ever release


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 04, 2019, 01:54:11 AM
Probably.  But I still bet there will be a big one.  And maybe nothing else ever.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on May 04, 2019, 10:08:24 PM
Mandella, you put your finger on something noteworthy.  VR is not the thing you do when you want to come home and relax.  It is not relaxing.  For newcomers, it will fuck with your mind in more ways than one.  It causes some eye strain.  It is not terribly comfortable.  It usually has you standing for long periods.  Some games will physically tire you out.  Some games will make you sweat.  While it is still video gaming in every sense, it would be fair to say it is a different experience in almost every way...it is more like taking on an additional hobby, rather than an upgrade of your current gaming experience.  It is just more visceral in every sense.
Aaand suddenly less interested. I just want a 3d headset for my games, not a jumping around my living room simulator.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 05, 2019, 05:57:18 AM
Don´t get me wrong, it is not because those kinds of games don´t exist.  There a numerous space sims (ED for one), Dirt Rally is amazing, Subnautica, and a bunch of others I am probably not even aware of.  But the tech really isn´t designed around that sort of thing, and it isn´t like you can just play all your regular stuff in 3D.  And even if you could, it probably would not be the best way to play those games anyway.  And you would still get tired from wearing the gear.  I am actually pretty curious to see if the improved clarity resolution of the Index helps with the fatigue.

On the other hand, PSVR probably has a lot more sit-down stuff.  Maybe that would be your thing.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on May 05, 2019, 08:33:14 AM
I'm with Sky; I want a badass headset to look around modded Minecraft in, while still playing with a kb+m. If I wanted to stand up (or run on a treadmill :ye_gods:) and flail fake swords around, I'd have gotten into LARPing.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on May 05, 2019, 01:23:52 PM
Same. Not interested at the moment in standing up while playing videogames. Maybe one day, with specific games.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on May 05, 2019, 07:43:22 PM
I'm with Sky; I want a badass headset to look around modded Minecraft in, while still playing with a kb+m. If I wanted to stand up (or run on a treadmill :ye_gods:) and flail fake swords around, I'd have gotten into LARPing.

I actually messed around for a while with the VR version of Minecraft for the Gear with a controller. It was pretty interesting, but one thing I was not expecting was the intense claustrophobia it could induce (also note, I am not normally subject to claustrophobia -- in fact I am usually rather comforted by enclosed areas). But going down a tunnel only two blocks high by one block wide was uncomfortably "realistic."

Still, nothing that you couldn't get used to. I stopped messing with it more to do with limitations of the Gear than being tired of the game.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on May 05, 2019, 11:51:14 PM
I want to say that Minecraft in VR can already be done as a sit-down experience with KB+M, but I am not entirely positive.  You could probably just sit down with the regular controls if nothing else.  I imagine that is true for a number of games, actually.  I once had a foot stool in the play space one day where I didn't feel like standing but still had to cross the Skyrim map a few times.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on June 27, 2019, 01:04:02 PM
OMGOMGOMGOMG guys OMG.  It is coming tomorrow.  So excited.  The previews have been veeeery positive.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on June 27, 2019, 08:04:11 PM
what


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on June 27, 2019, 08:16:04 PM
His Valve Index is coming tomorrow.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: schild on June 27, 2019, 08:25:07 PM
o


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on June 27, 2019, 11:40:04 PM
Well now it's coming today.  It might even be on a truck RIGHT NOW.   It is supposed to come between 8 and 10 this morning, so I expect that means I will be waiting all goddamn day for it and it won't come at all.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on June 28, 2019, 09:12:33 AM
.....It is supposed to come between 8 and 10 this morning, so I expect that means I will be waiting all goddamn day for it and it won't come at all.

....and this is what actually happened.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 01, 2019, 11:48:34 AM
Okay, after the pre-mature ejaculation that was last Friday (stupid delivery company:  We’re sorry sir, but our driver did not make it out to you by 4, and he has to stop deliveries at 4.  You will get it Monday for sure!).  It is here now.  I will try to contain myself and give a measured and detailed review.  I think there are so many important factors when talking about VR that I will probably break it into a bunch of chunks as my impressions take shape.

-Setup (wiring, installation, software, etc.)
-The headset itself (comfort, etc.)
-Resolution (regular, supersampled)
-Colors and black levels
-Field of view (including IPD, zoom thingy)
-Refresh rates (they are selectable!)
-The controllers
-Tracking (and the lighthouses)
-Games and stuff
-Anything else
-Sum of all parts (conclusion?)

Feel free to throw in any questions or things you want me to look at.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 01, 2019, 11:59:39 AM
Part 1:  Setup!

The box was gorgeous, unboxing happened, yada yada.  Never really got why people get boners over unboxing.  That said, it was a really nice package.  Which it should be for 1300 fucking dollars or whatever.  Should include a coupon for a BJ at that price.

I know how all of this works, so setup and install was a snap.  For now, in fact, I am not using the 2.0 Lighthouses.  They may offer better range and fidelity, but due to impatience and a real reason to see why I should bother, I left the 1.0s stay up for now.  So the part that people fuss about the most over, I skipped entirely.  Beyond that.....you just plug shit in.  Uses Display Port, and a single USB 3.0.  And power, of course.  I also do not have to do any software setup, because it uses Steam VR just like the Vive.  So plug it in, turn it on, and Bob’s your uncle.

And I guess that’s the point.  Steam has already created a pretty damn nice ecosystem for VR, and this just slides right in seamlessly.  If I want to (and I probably will), I can just swap back and forth to my Vive.  Also, the controllers and lighthouses are compatible in all directions.  That’s pretty damn impressive, and no small benefit to someone like me who owns both and will probably want to continue to use both in some capacity.  At the very least, I will want to continue to use the old Vive controllers (more on that later) and maybe even the headset once in a while.

There are probably some reviews out there that go on incessantly about the painful setup.  Ignore those reviews.  Setup is an inherent part of this kind of tech.  You cannot have compelling VR without putting a bit of work into it and learning a thing or two about how it works.

Anyway, so far, so good.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 02, 2019, 11:50:53 AM
Part 2:  The headset

It feels lighter.  All of the materials feel lighter.  Cheaper?  Meh, not as such.  Feels more like a consumer version as opposed to the heavier, almost military version of the Vive.  It has a nice little IPD slider (pupil distance adjustment, hugely important for VR, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise) with a big range.  One knob for ‘zooming’ the lenses in and out....ostensibly for people who want to wear glasses, but the real deal here is getting the lenses as close as possible to your eyes.  This zooms close enough for the time being.  The face pad/gasket does not let it get as close as it could, but no doubt third parties are already working on thinner versions.  Speaking of face pad, the whole thing - including the plastic it sits on - pops out.  For cleaning the lenses?  Not sure, but whatever.  Also a knob in the back to cinch it up when it is on your head.  It doesn’t have much range, but that actually makes it easier to take on and off.  OTOH, it does not get small enough for a child’s head...but, they included a removable, high quality foam insert to take care of that.  Have fitted on my 7 year-old, works fine.

The cord connecting the whole thing (like I said, DP, USB 3.0 and a power connector) all in a single nice cable that goes to a splitter module.  Much nicer than the Vive.  Less annoying by a good bit, and seems more tangle resistant.

The speakers....yes, they are more like directional speakers, not really headphones.  Open backed.  They sit maybe 1.5 inches off your ears.  They are OUTSTANDING.  Miles, miles, miles better than the headphones on the Deluxe Audio Strap (which is the upgrade for Vive). This is good enough that I will stop using my 7.1 receiver for sound (may still figure out how to get the subwoofer going though).  They are loud, they are clear, the bass is pretty okay, and for once they got the directional audio working in a compelling way.  I was not buying into the hype, but these have lived up to it, and I am pretty hard to please on this point.  Super impressed.  Oh, and they bleed shockingly little, so it won’t irritate bystanders.

Last but not least, comfort.  I will just state it plainly, this is far more comfortable than the Vive with the Deluxe Audio Strap (which was considered one of the more comfortable PC headsets....the DAS, that is, no so much the Vive itself). I am not even sure exactly why.  Ergonomically just better, lighter, and somehow the headset does not actually put weight on your face, which tends to be the part that sucks.  To be fair, physical comfort is only half the equation when talking about VR comfort, but they nailed it.  It could only reasonably be more comfortable when the tech allows them to shrink the facemask to reduce the weight more.  Really, having tried this on, it is hard to understand how other producers have not figured out how to reproduce this.  Quite pleased.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on July 02, 2019, 12:01:41 PM
It all sounds as good as promised so far. Looking forward to more updates.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 02, 2019, 02:12:05 PM
Yeah, thanks Cyrrex. Reading with interest!


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 02, 2019, 07:43:36 PM
I'm reading too, even if I don't have anything to contribute right now.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 03, 2019, 06:52:04 AM
Good to hear I am not writing to entertain just myself.

Part 3:  Resolution

We already know this is a higher resolution than the Vive and all the other generation 1 headsets.  Pimax has a version that is similar, and one even higher, but neither of those are worth talking about anyway.  Index has the same resolution now as the Vive Pro (and note it is also cheaper), but it apparently has more/better sub-pixels that make it appear even better, at least on paper.  I have never put another headset on other than my OG Vive, so I cannot make comparisons to other HMDs.

What I can say is that, in the real world the difference is obvious from the moment you put it on.  Just launching into your static “home” space and bringing up the Steam window makes it pretty clear that the clarity is significantly improved.  Even at default resolution, every game and window you open just looks better.  Even my picky, spoiled children think it looks nice and smooth.  Their chief complaint above the Vive is that it just did not look good enough.  I think it is fair to say that is no longer a problem.  Screen Door Effect is almost gone.  You can really no longer see it most of the time, but it will still show up when looking at, for example, a bright moon in an otherwise dark sky.  For the most part, this is no longer an issue.

Supersampling is a major part of VR.  Steam VR even has a slider where you can adjust the exact resolution % on the fly as a global setting (or you can set them for each application if you want).  With the Vive, I would set it up to like 180 to 200% for something efficient like Skyrim, and it would improve the visual quality at the cost of performance.  You can even add in things like ‘reprojection’ and ‘motion smoothing’ to help prevent missed frames (by interpolating using different techniques).  Something that ran terribly, like Fallout 4, I would only set it to maybe 140% or something, and would still risk dropping frames.  Dropping frames in VR is not fun.  It looks like shit and messes with your inner ear.  Anyway, because of the improved resolution and the demand it puts on my machine, my window is narrower.  Skyrim seem to do well at 140%, but I am not sure it actually looks much better than 100%.  Fallout in comparison has problems at 100%, so downsampling might be needed.  On the one hand, I wish I had more headroom here, but on the other....things look better by default because of the improved native resolution.  Still more fiddling required, and already thoughts of a vid card upgrade (fucken lusers) begins to enter my head.

TLDR version:  The increased resolution is a big deal.  Where the Vive was admittedly something you got used to as a early adopter of the tech, this once again feels consumer ready in this respect.  I don’t feel like I have to push the supersampling to get something that looks nice.  Everything looks nice by default.  Haven’t loaded up Elite:Dangerous (very text heavy and aliased) yet, but I am betting it will be amazing.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 03, 2019, 09:26:15 AM
My budget for an HMD definitely includes a GPU upgrade. Gotta feed it!


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 03, 2019, 11:34:24 AM
And for quick reference, I am running a 1080 on a i9 9700k, 16gb RAM, SSD, etc.  I need to do a lot more testing before I figure out if I need an upgrade.  Right now it is mainly Fallout, but that game may never be quite right with any hardware.  And hell....I really want to try 144hz (more on that later).


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 03, 2019, 01:09:05 PM
I'm probably going to have to go on one of those specialty forums for figuring out how to set up VR on my distributed system. I have my computer box in another room all the way over on the other side of the house, while I stream to the living room using a micro-PC hooked to the big screen TV. This is obviously going to complicate any VR connections.

Which means I may just wuss out and get the Playstation VR (I do have my consoles in the living room) or maybe just spend a grand or two on a VR capable notebook that I could slide in a slot in my media center...


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 05, 2019, 11:59:53 AM
I think it is worth noting that a ‘VR capable notebook’ would probably be disappointing as fuck with the Index.  Hard to imagine there is anything that could actually run the thing credibly.  Other options are finding some very long cables?  Sounds like a pain.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 05, 2019, 12:17:59 PM
Part 4:  Colors and black levels.

So this bit will be pretty short.  Colors seem to be fine, as good as the Vive as far as I can tell.  Apparently the Vive Pro had better colors due to the higher resolution than the Vive.  Resolution matters when reproducing colors.  So why is the Index not better than OG Vive?  Because it uses LCD technology, where HTC uses OLED.  The choice to use LCD gives a lot of other advantages (higher refresh rates, less screen door, etc.), but color and contrast ain’t among them.  Color is, therefore, a wash compared to the Vive.  Good enough as far as I am concerned.

Contrast on the other hand....here we get to the first tangible negative.  It simply does not do black levels and contrast very well.  Some scenes that should be black are more a dark gray.  Other scene that are dark enough to actually appear black lack contrast.  I have a ‘Darker Nights’ mod on Skyrim, for example, which was great on the Vive.  It was nearly pitch black, but still did contrast well enough that you could make out shapes that were close by, making it feel realistic.  On the same darkness setting on the Index, it almost comes across as all black, shapes being tough to discern.  Now, I can convince myself to think “hey, it’s just super dark”, but it cannot be denied that the contrast is not as good.

That said, I suspect it is the kind of thing I will get used to.  Not a big minus or a killer issue, but it is indeed a difference.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 08, 2019, 01:14:51 AM
Part 5:  Field of View, IPD, Zoom

All three of these things matter a shitload for a good VR experience.  It all boils down to getting the lens as close to your eyeball as physically possible, get the sweetspot in the right place relative to your pupils, and then how much useful screen fills up your peripheral vision before you see the edges.  It might be taken as a given, but some of the headsets out there, including the newer ones, do not adequately address all three of these things (FOV has some major technical challenges to overcome, for starters).  I believe the Rift S fails to include the Inter-Pupillary Distance slider, for example, which alone is a reason you should never, ever buy one of those.  Okay, so regarding the Index, we'll take these three things one at a time....

Field of View - this was one of the big things that got people interested in the Index, because it boasted a wider FOV than anything but the Pimax.  130 degrees side to side, I think the initial word was.  Whatever.  Now, the thing about FOV is that there are a lot of factors involved in making a judgement on it.  Opening up the IPD literally moves the lenses outwards and will increase FOV, for example, but that doesn't mean you should do it.  Zooming in an out (bring the lenses closer to your eyes) will also obviously increase FOV just like moving up to the first row in a movie theater (although without the drawbacks).  And then obviously, the lenses themselves.  Valves claim was that, all things being equal, they had a significantly better FOV.  Truth is, it's a mixed answer.  I already had my Vive super close to my eye by virtue of buying a special face pad that was much thinner, so my FOV was already increased versus actual specs.  My Index is almost as close to my eyes with the standard face pad.  The result is that the side to side FOV appears to be about the same.  OTOH, the top to bottom FOV is definitely improved on the Index.    That said, I would have prefered a side to side increase.  So the claim is essentially true from Valve, but in reality it is less impactful than I had hoped.  Better FOV overall, but nothing mindblowing as such.

Inter-Pupillary Distance - I think the general range for humans is that there is something like a 72 to 57 millimeter (roughly) distance between pupils.  Cockeyed retards on the one end of the spectrum, beady eyed crooks on the other.  Average is something around 64.  If you have every tried an HMD that did not have a slider, or just did not know it was there, you probably were not getting the best experience.  If it was off by much, shit was probably way out of focus and causing massive strain.  When I physically measure my own IPD, it comes out to about 63.  My Vive would go down to about 62, so it seemed okay.  The range on the Index is much better.  It easily goes down to 58 or something.  The strange thing is, that my eyes seem to prefer going down to 58, even though I should be using 63.  I think it may have something to do with where your focus is....if you are looking at thing in medium to short range all the time, which is often the case in VR, then the sweetspot might move in.  In the end, the thing that matters most with the Index is that the slider works and it has a better range than the Vive.  One drawback is that you can feel pressure on your nose at the lowest setting if you are also zoomed in all the way, which seems like a bit of a design flaw.  But no big deal.

Zoom - okay, it isn't really an optical zoom.  It is a physical zoom, literally moving the lenses closer to or further away from your eyeballs.  Closer is better, would be the general rule.  Exceptions are if you are wearing glasses, or if you need to zoom out to help combat nausea or something.  The biggest benefit of the zoom is the obviously improvement in FOV.  You basically want your eye-lashes brushing against the lenses if you can manage it.  Vive had a good zoom, and also aided by the fact that you could buy thinner facepads.  Index also has a good zoom, and the facepad that ships with it is vastly better than the Vive's standard.  I cannot quiiiiiiite get it as close as the Vive, but it is close.  No idea yet if there are 3rd party face pads, but it is only a matter of time.  I think I like the Index as-is in this regard.  It is so much more comfortable that I don't feel like fucking with it.

Sum total of all of these things is that I have a somewhat improved FOV (particularly top to bottom) and slightly better pupil focus, but with greater comfort.  Advantage Index.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 08, 2019, 12:06:21 PM
Here is a one off question that might not even apply at all to recent VR headsets, but my only real experience is with the Samsung Gear, and apparently I have a super sweaty face because condensation was always a big problem. I know about all the ways to mitigate the issue, but the fact that I have to do stuff to mitigate it is in itself annoying.

So the question is how does the Index fare here? Would I need to pre-warm the headset or mod it with fans or what?


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 08, 2019, 12:53:48 PM
Well, sweat can be a problem in two ways, so it depends on what you are talking about.  The first is where it can just be sweaty on the facepad and annoying, uncomfortable, damaging, etc.  On this point, the Index is an improvement by default simply due to the special (hypo-allergenic?  Sweat resistant?) material they use.  It is super comfortable, does not need to sit as tight, and is made out of a fabric that does not seem to cause you to sweat.  A big improvement over the Vive, so that is one thing.

The other thing is that sweat or the simple warmth of your skin can cause an otherwise cool lens to build up condensation.  I had this problem in the early days of the Vive.  In some ways, you build up a tolerance that makes you sweat less.  But more importantly, I got into a habit of making sure the Vive was powered on for a couple minutes before I would use it.  Equalizing the temp between your skin and the lens means no condensation unless you start sweating like a pig.

The Index seems to always have a bit of power going to and warming the lenses just by being plugged in.  So, I have not had condensation even once yet.  Nor have I sweated up the facepad.  So in conclusion, I would say it is better in both ways.

Caveat - I am not much of a sweater by default.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2019, 02:10:19 AM
Part 6:  Refresh Rates

Okay, so this is a tough one, both to describe and to judge.  To be honest, I may simply not have beefy enough hardware (sorry little 1080 card and whatnot).  So this is subject to some serious updating at some point.

The Vive and Oculus Rift are both set to run at 90hz by default.  The Oculus Quest, I believe, goes at 72hz (which is a compelling reason to avoid it entirely).  I think the Playstation standard is somewhere between 60 and 70, although I have heard they managed to make it work anyway.  I am not going to look them all up, but most of the serious ones have been aiming at 90hz, so just assume that's the standard for sake of this review.  The reason for 90hz is because it seems to be, for most people, the most comfortable minimum framerate for VR, while at the same time putting enough smoothness around the edges to improve "presence".  Usually how these things work is that they aim at producing games to run at 90fps or above, and if for any reason your hardware cannot manage it, then some kind of re-projection and/or motion smoothing tech will kick in to attempt to make up the difference (at the cost of quality, presence and other things).  Dips below 90 are generally okay for a bit, but you can begin to notice it in a very negative way if it starts going down to the 70s and 60s.  There are a lot of factors involved in determining whether or not you can hit 90, and you can guess at most of them.  But VR obviously puts a more variables into the mix, making it all the more difficult to hit the sweetspot. 

Anyway, one of the super interesting things about the Index is that it goes beyond 90hz.  In the Steam software, you now have options for 80, 90, 120 and 144hz (this last one is considered experimental, and probably only a 2080ti can even attempt it).  The thing is, you have a little resolution slider that plays together with it.  If you move up to 120hz, for example, Steam will basically tell you to slide the resolution down, based on what it knows about your hardware.  That said, Steam is only guessing.  For most things, trying to use 120hz means turning down the resolution too far and introducing aliasing, or simply risking that the framerate will not hold.  Where it gets complicated is that at some point, if you fall too short of 120, it will effectively HALVE the framerate to 60, and then start reprojecting.  In other words, that's bad.  You don't want to try to run 120 only to have it throttle itself and interpolate frames...defeats the whole purpose at best, and at worst, you get a choppy mess.  I need to do a lot more experimenting before I can draw any real conclusions - and like I said, it may be my hardware is currently insufficient - but for now I am not seeing real benefits of 120.  I am not seeing an improved presence on any of the FPS type games where that would be the biggest benefit, but it may well be simply because my hardware is halving the framerate.  Or my poor old eyes just cannot perceive a difference.  We will see.  If nothing else, having the option is GREAT, and I have no doubt that there is a benefit to gain for anyone that can push it. 

80hz, on the other hand, is a surprisingly interesting option.  80 fps is still pretty comfortable, so locking into that rate and being able to then turn up the resolution to sharpen the visuals?  That is actually pretty compelling.  It makes Skyrim looking amazing, and it helps shitty things like Fallout maintain the framerate.  I did not expect to see this as an advantage, but it clearly is for lower powered cards.

Anyway, the only conclusion for now is that more options are better than fewer options.  Brilliant that they have added multiple options for refresh rates.  I only wish they did it on a slider like with the resolution instead of the set values.  Might be a technical reason for that, no idea.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 09, 2019, 08:42:15 AM
It's a weird time for gpus. After getting the 4k screen, I've been preparing for a gpu upgrade for my 970. Which is something like 5 years old, now! But it seems that current targets are 1440 and nothing is really comfortable at 2160, and nothing is really crushing VR. I wouldn't be satisfied with VR using the 970, I'm pretty sure...but the current gpus are not compelling an upgrade, because even they aren't quite enough. I'm hoping that nvidia is gunning for 4k/VR with the 30xx series.

It's weird being back in a gpu-bound performance challenge, it's been a looong time since a gpu at the top end was barely acceptable at consumer refresh rates (4k). Lol 8k (but at least 8k will push smoothing/interpolation/potato tech, because again lol).

I mean, as you say, you can get acceptable results with a 1080 for most stuff, so a lot of it is that I like stuff that has headroom enough to not choke on something like, say, completely randomly, Cyberpunk 2077 VR. Or modded minecraft.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on July 09, 2019, 09:52:31 AM
The 2080 Ti can do 4K 60 FPS gaming comfortably (assuming you also have a powerful enough CPU) though it’s not quite powerful enough to guarantee a minimum of 60 FPS at max settings in all games.

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/nvidia-rtx-2080-ti-benchmarks,review-5779.html


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2019, 10:45:38 AM
Was gonna say the same (I think they brag about 8k even?).

But I do feel Sky’s point.  There are a couple of cards that can really excel at most stuff, but fuck, they cost a pretty penny.  The last two generation of cards I have owned have each lived for close to 3 years, and that is insane for someone like me who is always always always finding myself in a situation where I want more speed.

A 2080 will probably give me 20 to 30 percent increase in the real world.  For close to a thousand dollars.  That is madness.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
I am still holding off. I have never had the chance to even try once any kind of VR so far (well, except for that one and only time at an arcade in London in 1991, for real) and at this point I have decided to wait at least another five years. So my first time, supposedly, will literally blow me away. Mmmm... let's make it ten years for maximum effect?


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2019, 11:58:52 AM
By that logic, you should never try it, because it will always be better in 5 years.  This goes for everything in the entire history of the universe.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on July 09, 2019, 12:25:31 PM
Well that's true in a way. But at the same time technology can sometimes "wow" you, and sometimes underwhelm you in a sense that is "Uhm... I thought things were going to be more impressive by now". I had both feelings with plenty of things before. Sometimes being an early adopter is amazing, and sometimes you really get a blast only by being a late adopter.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2019, 12:28:46 PM
Yeah, I know, I was just messing with you.  And in any event, it is fair enough to say that the software is largely unimpressive, even if the tech itself is in a good place.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on July 09, 2019, 01:15:20 PM
Besides cost, my biggest concern with attempting to use any of these incredibly uncomfortable-looking headsets is that my glasses will totally fuck the experience up.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2019, 01:26:20 PM
How bad is your vision?  General rule of thumb is that if you can see details at arms length without lenses, you would be fine.  Probably better with Index because of higher resolutions.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on July 09, 2019, 01:41:07 PM
Oh fuck no, I'm blind as a goddamn bat. Without glasses, shit gets fuzzy around my elbow.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 09, 2019, 01:50:38 PM
Yeah, that’s a tough one.  I mean, there are plenty of people out there that do it with glasses.  No idea what it’s like.  Tell you what though, for the sake of science I will toss on my glasses and give it a go (I wear contacts, but have backup glasses).


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on July 09, 2019, 01:51:44 PM
Besides cost, my biggest concern with attempting to use any of these incredibly uncomfortable-looking headsets is that my glasses will totally fuck the experience up.
Yeah that's my biggest concern too. However depending on the shape/size of your glasses and their position on your face it may not be an issue. I had/have wide metal frames for my fat head and they were just able to squeeze into one of the early Oculus models (the frames got squished a bit into my nose but it wasn't too bad) they were demoing at one of the GDCs a few years back.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 09, 2019, 02:16:35 PM
Arm's length? You'd only need to see as far as the lenses and screens clearly. I had thought my close vision would mean I could use them without glasses, but my clear (and microscopic!) vision dof is about 7-12 inches. Since I wear gradiant lenses, I'd also need new glasses if I couldn't use the Index with my natural vision!


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: HaemishM on July 09, 2019, 03:30:45 PM
Oh did I mention I'm now old enough that my close vision has gone to shit too?  :awesome_for_real: I tried wearing bifocals for reading and just couldn't stand it so I read books and my phone with my glasses off now.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on July 09, 2019, 03:43:04 PM
You can get a second pair of glasses with the prescription adjusted for reading instead of bifocals.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Salamok on July 09, 2019, 05:11:11 PM
You can also get prescription lenses for most VR headsets, although the glasses wearing VR enthusiast I know just wears his glasses with the headset and the only major issue is you need toi be careful or your glasses will scratch the headset lenses.  Looks like the comparison between the vive pro and the valve index is fairly close, I'm sort of an in for a penny in for a pound kind of guy I thonk I would opt for the vive since the valve headset does not seem to be able to be upgraded to wirelessness.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 10, 2019, 12:41:49 AM
Yeah, arm's length.  Even though the lenses are pressed up against your eyes as much as possible, the general estimation is that it equates to about a one meter distance in relation to where your actual focal point is.  I have more or less verified this as well, having tried it a couple times without contacts.

I am quite sure that all the modern headsets are built to accomodate glasses.  I mean, consider the target audience, people.  Nerds as far as the eye can see (pun?).  So of course glasses should be manageable with a reasonable amount of comfort.  I just don't know how it effects the immersion if you have to zoom the lenses out in order to make space.  Maybe the curve of lenses in glasses makes up for it.  Will test.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 10, 2019, 09:06:16 AM
You can get a second pair of glasses with the prescription adjusted for reading instead of bifocals.

Right, but that continues to pile on cost. Index + knuckles, new gpu/cpu/mobo/ram, new glasses... and the glasses pretty much /just/ for VR? Meh.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 10, 2019, 10:41:03 AM
I would expect your current lenses would suffice, but something you would want to test out for sure.  Or again, even trying without anything.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on July 10, 2019, 10:59:39 AM
You can get a second pair of glasses with the prescription adjusted for reading instead of bifocals.


Or I can just take off my existing glasses.  :oh_i_see:

Leaving the state of hardware alone for a bit, what is the state of software available for VR? I guess I could Google or wander around Steam, but maybe someone can give me a quick categorization? Maybe just a place to start looking into it?


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 10, 2019, 11:11:32 AM
I’m getting there.  But as hinted before, the software is lagging behind the hardware.  Generally speaking.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 11, 2019, 03:24:13 AM
Okay, a couple quick vision related tests.  For reference, I am minus 3.00 in both eyes, so typical near-sighted.  I also notice my close-up vision visions is starting to degrade a bit, in that I would prefer to read stuff up close without any lenses, but I am not so bad that I need any kind of bi-focals yet.

So, first without any corrective lenses at all.  At minus 3?  Nah, not so good.  Simple video (ahem, porn) is actually fairly okay, and some gaming would be okay if it weren't for menus and text.  I would call it a no-go.  Probably would be doable at minus 2.  My vision has taken a step for the worse in the last couple of years, I remember it being a little better when I got my Vive.

Now, wearing glasses.  Okay, I am a little surprised how good this is.  Other than a bit if pressing from the nose pieces on the glasses, I could almost forget I was wearing them.  Not only that, but I could also get the physical zoom in to its closest setting, which I did not at all expect would be possible (also makes me think that third party face pads are inevitable if there is still that much room available).  Slightly annoying getting the HMD on and off, but that would be something you would figure out in no time.  This was totally, completely doable with basically zero loss in quality or experience.  I am fairly shocked.

So, unless you have some huge as glasses, this gets a big thumbs up from me.  I would call my glasses a bit on the low profile side, they are not huge.  Never tried it on the Vive, not planning to either.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 11, 2019, 09:22:56 AM
So, yeah. New prescription glasses is part of the buy-in for me, since I wear progressive lenses.

Thanks for the testing!


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on July 11, 2019, 10:42:17 AM
I'm going to go blind before we get to the part of this review that I care about. How's that for an eye test?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 11, 2019, 11:37:41 AM
I'm going to go blind before we get to the part of this review that I care about. How's that for an eye test?  :why_so_serious:
You mean the fleshlight compatibility?  :drillf:

https://www.fleshlight.com/collections/vstroker-virtual-sex-adapter-accessories


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 11, 2019, 05:23:32 PM
I'm going to go blind before we get to the part of this review that I care about. How's that for an eye test?  :why_so_serious:
You mean the fleshlight compatibility?  :drillf:

https://www.fleshlight.com/collections/vstroker-virtual-sex-adapter-accessories

Annnd now we get to the meat of the VR thread...

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Brolan on July 11, 2019, 08:36:23 PM
I've used my glasses on the Vive.  I'm near-sighted so I figured I didn't even need glasses since the screen is right in front of your eyes.  But the focus point must be way out there because my glasses are a must.

There is space for your glasses in the Vive but they do feel squashed right up to your face.  And it seems to make you sweat more around the eyes.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 12, 2019, 12:50:17 AM
I'm going to go blind before we get to the part of this review that I care about. How's that for an eye test?  :why_so_serious:

Lol, sheesh, I swear I am almost there.  I could deviate from my list and do it now, but the OCD part of me simply won’t allow me to do so.  In the meantime, it might help if you could put into words a bit more of what you are interested in knowing.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 12, 2019, 01:24:39 AM
Part 7:  The contollers

Called by “The Knuckles” by most people.  Google them if you don’t know what they look like.  I feel I cannot say much conclusively about these things.  There are also a lot of people complaining about some hardware faults which is currently muddying the waters....when pushing the thumbsticks forward, you are also supposed to be able to push down on them (think of an xbox controller).  This is already a clumsy movement on a normal controller, and even more so on these kinds of controllers, so I am currently ignoring the complaints for now and pretending it is not even supposed to work.

That out of the way, the most obvious thing that strikes me about these things is that they are cool as shit, seem to track perfectly, and the finger/grip tracking that they are renowned for seems so work pretty well, although it will take some getting used to.  In theory, the thing is strapped to your hand and tracking all of your fingers (and thumb!) in such a way that you can pick up and let go of objects.  A ball or a hand grenade, for example.  In the demo stuff you can try, it works pretty well, even if it takes some getting used to.

Problem is that right now, there isn’t really any software that makes it worth the bother beyond those demos.  In the limited testing I have done with them so far, any games that are ‘Knuckles Ready!!’  Have really just been re-mapped from Vive or Touch controllers, so they take no advantage whatsoever of the new features.  On the contrary, they usually end up being handicapped.  Even after remapping, stuff is not necessarily where you would want it to be, and suddenly you miss (for example) the track pad from the Vive controller.  In many cases, user defined mapping schemes are available because either the re-mapping has been done poorly or not at all.  For Skyrim, for example, I needed to search the web to find a way to fix the mapping for the fucking A button, which is so you can activate.  In Fallout, I cannot use my Pip-Boy....the method for tabbing through categories (Items, Maps, Quests) is mapped to the Vive trackpad, but the Knuckles tiny little trackpad does not have the same surface area, so it just does not work.  There is probably a fix, but it does not seem worth the bother.  We need software devs to do some true patching, but I won’t hold my breath in most cases.

To be fair, some people love them.  And for the testing I have been doing so far, it might well be that I just haven’t hit the software that will make it click for me.  Skyrim and Fallout are my Go To games for testing a lot of things, and especially with the former, the old Vive wands are probably a better form factor anyway.  Although not cylindrical, the Vive wands actually have a pretty good shape for melee combat.  They allow you to hold a bit more loosely, allowing better movement and angles with your wrists.  And yes....sometimes I sneak up behind a motherfucker, simultaneously stand up, sprint forward, reverse grip on the hilt (think Ashoka Tano) and murder a bitch.  The Vive wands have you convinced you are holding a sword.  The Knuckles are most definitely latched onto your hands and do not allow the same fluid movement (nor are they designed to).

Negatives aside, a few obvious notes and improvements on the Knuckles, just thinking from a hardware perspective.  
-Obviously solid build quality.  
-Each one has two actual buttons on the face
-The straps work really well in securing them
-Tracking is perfect
-The finger tracking is a bit strange, but I can see it ultimately being effective in the right apps
-The grip button is no longer a button.  It is just the sensors and haptics used to track your three bottom fingers.  It can also measure force applied.  Really cool.  Vive wands grip button is the worst.
-Thumbsticks.  Actually really nice to be able to move via thumbstick instead of trackpad.

I would say that is a good summary for now.  I will try more non-melee stuff to get a better impression of the Knuckles and update as needed.  It should be said that Valve themselves are probably going to be the first to come out with a AAA title using the new controllers in earnest, and even the little demos they have been doing are genius, so I am still optimistic about these things.  Until then, if one already had Vive wands or Oculus Touch controllers?  You could easily wait on the Knuckles.

I really like these things, but until the developer community catches up, they spend much time sitting on the table.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 12, 2019, 03:32:52 AM
Moving thing along now so we can soon start talking games.

Part 8:  Tracking (and the lighthouses)

I won’t go over shit that has been gone over way back in this thread.  If you don’t know what Room Scale is by now, go look it up.  Index, exactly like the Vive, is all about Room Scale, and it works exactly the same.  If you buy the whole kit (like I did), you get the new 2.0 Lighthouses.  Benefits to the 2.0 Lighthouses (the Vive came with the 1.0) is theoretical improved tracking of the HMD and controllers in the play-space....but more importantly for anyone who can actually use it, they can now be spaced 10 meters apart from each other, as opposed to the 5 meters used by the 1.0 version.  A math genius can then calculate that it moves the theoretical max potential play-space from 25 square meters up to 100.  And if I had that kind of space, it would be fucking amazing and liberating, but I don’t.  Who does?  I have something like a 3 x 4 space right now, which is generally sufficient.  Though I do find myself approaching a wall now and again.

So, because I do not need the extra space, and my tracking works well enough already?  I have not even unpacked the 2.0 Lighthouses.  Nobody is talking about improved tracking in the real world, so there is no compelling reason to do so.  In fact, I believe one or both of my Vive wands would be incompatible with the new ones, so it would be a pretty big negative right now.

So why is nobody talking about improved tracking?  Because honestly, the tracking of the old versions even using the Vive was already close enough to perfect.  It was already crazy impressive, assuming you got rid of some of the common issues (blind spots, mirrored surfaces causing issues, etc.).  It is just as perfect with the new controllers and the new HMD.  Also close to perfect as you could ever need it to be.  The new Lighthouses probably helped people who never managed to get their original shit working just right, but I am not one of those people.

As a result....if you have the 1.0 Lighthouses and don’t have tracking issues and don’t need more than a 5 x 5 meter space?  You can skip these.  


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 16, 2019, 11:05:45 AM
Okay, I know I owe a bit of a breakdown on games and stuff, and I will get to that....the only reason I haven’t done so already is because I think that - with the new hardware - I need to re-evaluate some of them to make sure I give it a fair shake.

In the meantime, a few notable updates....

Comfort - it is becoming clearer that both the improved form factor and the improved resolution have a clear impact on how comfortable it is to have the thing on during gaming sessions.  In the Vive, I always felt like I was straining my eyes just a little....analogous to having less than perfect vision and squinting to bring things into view for a long period of time.  It would force you to take regular breaks.  It is now possible to essentially relax.  Makes gaming more enjoyable, obviously, and also makes coming back into the real world less wonky.  A very welcome difference.

Controllers - some of my relative negatively is disippating.  Both updates in Steam’s VR software (going on the beta track) plus getting used to the controller configuration software (to remap buttons) have been been big quality of life improvements.  I am now using them more or less for everything, and I like them more all the time.  For the record, my kids prefer the new ones by a fair margin.  I am getting there.

Sound - as mentioned I would likely do, I have abandoned external sounds sources.  The built-in speakers are just great.  Maybe not as loud and powerful as my 7.1 system, but really high quality and superbly done directional sound.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 22, 2019, 03:25:39 AM
Part 9:  Games and stuff

So let's get this out of the way straight away - as I have said before, the hardware is ahead of the software.  The biggest and most accurate complaint about both the Index and the state of VR in general is that there are not enough new, compelling, high quality games available.  This is even more true if you want to use the AAA moniker, to imply something of depth, quality and length.  There are a bunch of pretty decent non-AAA titles, but by virtue of what they are it often means they are too short, not complete and/or not-optimized graphically (which matters exponentially more in VR).  And because VR is still a relatively new thing, there is an absolute metric fuckton of bullshit shovelware nonsense.  I think this is true for Steam in general, but the ratio of high quality games to contemptible bullshit is probably even worse for VR, if for no other reason than VR owners are thirsty for new stuff, and cynical shitheads are rushing to fill the void with poop.

What we are left with then is a situation where there are two kinds of games/software to choose from.  First, the made-for-VR stuff that is even worth bothering with.  Second, the older AAA stuff that has been adapted, converted and retro-fitted to VR officially (okay, maybe it is not all technically AAA).  I think what I will do here is simply list the most (IMO) compelling titles in each category.  Even if I do not personally like or play them.  The landscape is small enough that I generally know what's out there.

Compelling Made-4-VR stuff
- Rec Room.  A free game that would be the Wii Sports-like killer app if VR were more mainstream.  It is like a social, multiplayer Wii Sports game, but way better.
- Beat Saber.  It is not deep, but it is basically a rhythm game with lightsabers.  Pretty amazing, honestly, even if it is not my bag.
- Gorn.  Over-the-top gladiator battles with interesting physics.  A crowd favorite.
- Arizona Sunshine.  Walking Dead, the video game.  Shallow, but fairly long and very immersive.  
- Budget Cuts.  Killer robots in an office stealth game.  Cutesy, but kinda hard.
- Accounting.  Has nothing to do with accounting, it is 2 hours of Justin Roiland of Rick and Morty fame doing what he does.  Hilarious.  Was a free demo, now a fuller paid game which I have not played.
- A Chair in a Room.  Psychological room-space thriller that I NOOOOPED out of and could not complete due to pants-shitting terror.
- House of the Dying Sun.  Simple space pew pew game, but everything in space in VR is cool.
- Onward.  Not my bag, but this is like Arma in VR, 4 on 4 multiplayer shooter of pretty high quality.
- Pavlov.  Also not my bag, but this is CounterStrike in VR and very popular.
- Space Pirate trainer.  There are no pirates, but you stand there in a cool setting and shoot lasers and whatnot at little flying robots.  Very cool.
- Star Trek Bridge Crew.  Kinda boring in single player, but for Star Trek nerds who want to talk to other humans I guess it is the shit.
- Tilt Brush (and other similar titles).  If art is your thing, imagine being able to do it in virtual reality with no rules.

There is more than that, but that is the most interesting of the first category, in my opinion.  There are probably a couple Oculus titles that could be added on top of that like Robo Recall and Lone Echo.  Now for the other bit....

Converted and/or Adapted stuff
- Doom 3 BFG.  There is actually a Doom VFR game that I left off the above list, and that is because this super old and crusty modded game is way better, and a fucking great VR game in its own right.
- Elite:Dangerous.  I am probably never going to really get into this game (despite 40 hours played), but flying around in space in your ship in VR is supremely cool.  VR was made for games in space, I wish there were more.
- Serious Sam, all versions.  Despite being old as shit, they make for very fun shooty games in VR, and Cro Team is really on the ball with their VR adaptations.
- Subnautica.  Not my bag, and still uses an xbox controller, but for some people this is the shit.
- Dead Effect 2 VR.  Space Zombies on derelict ship, how original.  Surprisingly compelling in VR.
- Superhot VR.  Weird but cool.  I suck at it, but my son loves it.
- Project Cars 2.  Apparently awesome if you can run it
- Dirt Rally.  Is pretty awesome, driving in VR is intense.
- Payday 2.  Multiplayer bank robbing shenanigans.
- Minecraft.  Yeah, it’s legit, and honestly a perfect conversion to VR.  Vanilla is great.  Forge and mods possible, but I have no experience with it.
- Fallout 4 VR.  This game is waaaaaaaay more compelling in VR, but it runs like shit.  If only they could optimize it, it would be sliced bread.
- Skyrim VR.  Actual sliced bread.  This is the best game that exists and has ever existed.

There is more than what I list above, and surely things that are good that either I didn't bother mentioning or don't know anything about.  But still, the list is fairly small.  Also missing is that there are probably a number of exceptional HORROR games that I cannot comment on.  Why?  Because they are too scary by far for me to try.  Horror is probably one of the genres best suited for VR, because the sense of presence amplifies everything.  But I digress.  The question is, then, with a list that is so short, how can it be worth bothering with all of this?  It is a lot of money, and it is a lot of hassle, after all.

I don't have a good answer for that, but here's the best I can do.  VR gaming is not an analog or replacement for your normal gaming.  It is something different....as much an experience as it is a game.  You do not have playing sessions that are as long.  The input method for your actions is your whole body.  When you want shoot that zombie, you raise your gun, close one eye, look down the sight, pull the trigger and hope your aim was true enough to hit it in the head.  When you want to slice up that skeleton, you pull your arm back and sweep it across, then quickly turn around and check up to see who is coming up from behind.  If you want to sneak, you crouch down in the real world.  Or go fully prone in order to steady your rifle aim.  Etc.  The whole paradigm is different, so putting a value on it must inherently also be different.

So the best summary I can give is that the software side is surely lacking.  But some of what is there is compelling enough to keep you going for quite a long time, especially if you can get into things like Fallout and Skyrim, both of which can consume hundreds of hours.  No Man's Sky is also coming soon, and that promises to be amazing (despite holding zero interest for me in flat mode).  Another semi-conclusion to make is that - in my opinion - the best stuff is the converted AAA stuff.  Not the original VR content, even if some of it is pretty good (we are getting close to 500 hours in Rec Room).  I think it will be that way until the tide shifts and more investment is put into VR from the software side.

Also....VR porn is a thing.  

Happy to answer specific questions about games.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 22, 2019, 09:14:16 AM
At a gallery exhibit reception last year there were some nerds with a Vive setup in one of the small galleries, running Tilt Brush. They were letting artists come in for the first hour and draw with it, and then for the next couple hours patrons were walking through the space. It was a really cool idea and I'm sure someone will jump on it for an installation if they haven't already.

As far as limited software, as far as I'm concerned if it's the RIGHT limited software, it's not necessarily a negative for me. I mostly play a handful of games, and most of those I've been playing for years (minecraft, 7 Days, Rocksmith, Madden, etc). But yeah, I think that's where most of us who are on board and excited about VR are watching the closest. The hardware looks to be 'good enough' with the Index, in my opinion, now it's just fleshing things out in software.

It would be really nice if they could bring back the live crowds and stage spaces from the first Rocksmith and make it VR. Actually standing on the stage, looking up into the lights and stuff, it would be cool.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 22, 2019, 11:09:40 AM
Which reminds me that I completely forgot to put Minecraft on my list (I was looking at my steam stuff).  I know it is Forge compatible and everything that entails, but I cannot directly comment on that part....but the Vanilla game, if you just want to go dig some holes and build some stuff is mind blowing.  Probably more a novelty, though, if you are super deep into modding and play Minecraft like a shitty FPS.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on July 22, 2019, 03:59:30 PM
FPS gameplay and combat is not really the highlight of modded Minecraft.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 22, 2019, 06:16:18 PM
Other than porn, have you played around with other media? One of the more enjoyable things I liked to do with the Gear was to check out what concerts were available, that sort of thing. Even some of the virtual tour type stuff could be interesting.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 22, 2019, 07:45:52 PM
FPS gameplay and combat is not really the highlight of modded Minecraft.
Understatement.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 22, 2019, 11:42:00 PM
FPS gameplay and combat is not really the highlight of modded Minecraft.
Understatement.

My comments were based solely on what I see from my oldest, who basically plays it that way (and I think a lot of younger people do?  Dunno).  I personally have no idea.  I actually like Vanilla MC just fine, maybe with a nicer texture pack.  On the other hand, if you are used to uber fast clicky block placement, destruction, crafting, etc., then forget it.  Everything in VR is different, including and especially the input. 

Other than porn, have you played around with other media? One of the more enjoyable things I liked to do with the Gear was to check out what concerts were available, that sort of thing. Even some of the virtual tour type stuff could be interesting.

Not really, but that reminds me that I should take a look because it has been a while since I have tried to see what is out there.

But related to that, I am reminded about an important Index improvement.  There are various "big screen" or video apps that simulate you being in a movie theater and watching a 2D movie on a big as screen.  On the Vive, it was not ready for prime time.  Not comfortable enough to wear for that long, and way too pixelated (screen door).  On the Index, I think it would be doable.  I tested a bit of Captain Marvel, and it looks pretty nice.  Black levels not great, but I could see it being used for watching any kind of 2D video on a big screen.



Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 23, 2019, 08:17:30 AM
Everything in VR is different, including and especially the input. 
That's why I was talking about the need for the traditional k+m input in VR. In modded minecraft, the keyboard is a limiting factor for hotkeys, so it's not something that can be dumbed down to console inputs. That's one of the hobbles of VR, but tbf VR has one BIG up on consoles because aiming is solved and opens up stuff like FPS.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on July 23, 2019, 10:29:25 AM
This is the most immersive video I've ever seen and it's not even in VR (meaning, I am watching it on my PC monitor). It blows my mind, between the resolution, frame rate, and the places the two girls are working through and all the stuff that goes on. It's clearly a 360° video so make sure to drag and drop. Also, full screen please.

NSFW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-2n_HksLh0&list=PLk0Ofz8WZGmuzFNlc7TzCSnl5F1kSj7TA

When I see something like this, and then I think of future-but-not-so-distant VR sets, I get the chills.

Edit by Trippy: added NSFW tag, also don't watch while logged in to YT unless you want to mess up your recommendations (yes you can remove from your history but there's a substantial lag between watching a video and when it shows up in your history list for removal).


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 23, 2019, 10:58:33 AM
 :oh_i_see: :pedobear: :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 23, 2019, 12:14:30 PM
Uh....I think that a 360 video like that essentially IS a VR video.  That’s what 360 video is.  Not sure if I can get it running in any of the VR software, but I may give it a go.  I know there are similar files out there that can be had.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 23, 2019, 12:22:26 PM
Everything in VR is different, including and especially the input. 
That's why I was talking about the need for the traditional k+m input in VR. In modded minecraft, the keyboard is a limiting factor for hotkeys, so it's not something that can be dumbed down to console inputs. That's one of the hobbles of VR, but tbf VR has one BIG up on consoles because aiming is solved and opens up stuff like FPS.

My general POV on something like this is....forget the Minecraft as you know it and adapt to it as if it was a new thing.  Because, it essentially is.  I mean, take Doom 3.  I bought that game when it originally came out.  Played it for 10 minutes, decided it fucking sucked and never played it again.  The game gets modded and reborn umpteen years later, and now it is super compelling.  It’s just different, because you are there and your arms, hands and head are all part of the experience and you do everything differently.  I could say the same about Serious Sam.  Those game fucking suck.  Except in VR, where they totally don’t.

In VR, you do not want to use the keyboard, and you don’t want to use a controller.  Anything that forces you to do that takes you out of the experience, and essentially make it kinda suck.  Biggest problem with Elite is that you have to have a stupid keyboard right next to you.  Subnautica is a good example of this, too.  It works in VR, but not with the VR controllers.  As a result, it blows.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on July 23, 2019, 12:43:32 PM
NSFW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-2n_HksLh0&list=PLk0Ofz8WZGmuzFNlc7TzCSnl5F1kSj7TA

When I see something like this, and then I think of future-but-not-so-distant VR sets, I get the chills.

Edit by Trippy: added NSFW tag, also don't watch while logged in to YT unless you want to mess up your recommendations (yes you can remove from your history but there's a substantial lag between watching a video and when it shows up in your history list for removal).

I'm confused. I understand one of the ladies is barely clothed but she is clothed and she is not the point of the video. It seems like you know more than I do: what happens to your recommendations after watching that video?


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 23, 2019, 01:27:14 PM
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the minecraft experience in 3d because I can't stand around with controllers, but you do you.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on July 23, 2019, 01:36:32 PM
NSFW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-2n_HksLh0&list=PLk0Ofz8WZGmuzFNlc7TzCSnl5F1kSj7TA

When I see something like this, and then I think of future-but-not-so-distant VR sets, I get the chills.

Edit by Trippy: added NSFW tag, also don't watch while logged in to YT unless you want to mess up your recommendations (yes you can remove from your history but there's a substantial lag between watching a video and when it shows up in your history list for removal).

I'm confused. I understand one of the ladies is barely clothed but she is clothed and she is not the point of the video. It seems like you know more than I do: what happens to your recommendations after watching that video?
We have different standards here in the US compared to you Europeans. That barely clothed woman may get you in trouble here in the US if you are watching it at work.

As for YouTube's recommendation algorithm who the fuck knows how it works? The people who build these models don't even know how they work (seriously, they don't (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604087/the-dark-secret-at-the-heart-of-ai/)). I watched some random seemingly innocuous video once and YouTube decided I was in the alt-right and started recommending me Ben Shapiro videos. And I can't get rid of all the fucking Joe Rogan videos that get recommended to me because I watch plant-based health and cooking videos and somehow YouTube wants me to watch him even though he's anti-vegan/vegetarian.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Falconeer on July 23, 2019, 02:07:14 PM
I understand. I am sorry.

Also, Joe Rogan is a virus. I had to right click one of his videos and choose "I am not interested in this". Gone. But he was in five videos out of ten recommended ones for a while for me. Weird.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on July 23, 2019, 02:21:52 PM
Yeah the problem is he shows up in videos that other people are commenting for me too so it's not enough for me to remove just his channel.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on July 23, 2019, 03:20:02 PM
I contracted the Joe Rogan last year after watching a Jordan Peterson video.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Trippy on July 23, 2019, 03:23:30 PM
Well that make sense since Jordan, Ben and Joe are like the trifecta.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 24, 2019, 12:11:23 AM
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the minecraft experience in 3d because I can't stand around with controllers, but you do you.

I suppose what I mean is that if you had a working xbox controller on the one hand, and working Index controllers on the other, and both worked for a given game, you will almost certainly want to use the Index controllers.  The only exceptions I can think of are things like flight sims or driving sims, because those are things where you don't really need or want your arms moving independently.

If you had no choice?  Sure.  Some people play New Vegas (using a bit of software that does a VR conversion) with an xbox controller.  If I simply had to play a Fallout game and didn't already have FO4VR, I would probably give it a go.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 24, 2019, 01:28:08 AM
Oh, and to be fair and balanced and whatnot, there is a market of sorts for things like Hellblade: Senua's sacrifice, where you would definitely use a controller.  It's third person (over the shoulder), so being removed like that makes it work better in your brain.  There are a few other examples too....Moss is a highly regarded game, and I think it uses a controller.  Platformer of sorts.

But those kind of games are less common.  Partly because over the shoulder third person stuff requires a stomach of iron.  Also, because platformers and other types of games don't reap the same benefits of VR.  There are various experiments with sim type games or top down isometric stuff, but since you are inherently "removed" from the action by default, it doesn't make sense to force them into VR. On the contrary, you would lose the control benefits of the mouse and keyboard.  It would be cool and novel, but you would ultimately end up wanting to take the HMD off and play it in normal 2D.

But back to Hellblade for a second, that is a great example of what I hope will happen going forward.  A game that is considered pretty decent in its own right that ALSO offers a VR option.  Same with No Man's Sky (retroactively).  And Bethesda's stuff.  As has been mentioned before, Valve are themselves working on three "big" titles for VR.  If I had to place a very small wager, I would guess that some kind of Portal game will be one of them.  Or some HL variation (2.5?), or even L4D.  And if they do make any one of those three?  I would also wager they will be making a regular pancake version.  Because can you imagine them coming out with Portal 3 and it being only VR?  People would lose their shit, and rightly so perhaps.  Smart money is that they will release for both platforms.  Win-win.



Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 24, 2019, 04:04:51 PM
Oh, and to be fair and balanced and whatnot, there is a market of sorts for things like Hellblade: Senua's sacrifice, where you would definitely use a controller.  It's third person (over the shoulder), so being removed like that makes it work better in your brain.  There are a few other examples too....Moss is a highly regarded game, and I think it uses a controller.  Platformer of sorts.

But those kind of games are less common.  Partly because over the shoulder third person stuff requires a stomach of iron.  Also, because platformers and other types of games don't reap the same benefits of VR.  There are various experiments with sim type games or top down isometric stuff, but since you are inherently "removed" from the action by default, it doesn't make sense to force them into VR. On the contrary, you would lose the control benefits of the mouse and keyboard.  It would be cool and novel, but you would ultimately end up wanting to take the HMD off and play it in normal 2D.

But back to Hellblade for a second, that is a great example of what I hope will happen going forward.  A game that is considered pretty decent in its own right that ALSO offers a VR option.  Same with No Man's Sky (retroactively).  And Bethesda's stuff.  As has been mentioned before, Valve are themselves working on three "big" titles for VR.  If I had to place a very small wager, I would guess that some kind of Portal game will be one of them.  Or some HL variation (2.5?), or even L4D.  And if they do make any one of those three?  I would also wager they will be making a regular pancake version.  Because can you imagine them coming out with Portal 3 and it being only VR?  People would lose their shit, and rightly so perhaps.  Smart money is that they will release for both platforms.  Win-win.



The Hellblade thing might actually be the killer ap for me, oddly enough. I'm playing through the 2D version now, and I could see how I could play and enjoy it "the wrong way" -- i.e. by sitting on my ass in my comfy couch with dogs piled over me and using a mouse and keyboard or controller. Over the shoulder removes the need to match movements with a virtual body, but the visuals would still be worth the experience.

Plus I have said stomach of iron.

On the other hand, over-the-shoulder view in VR could feel pretty stalkerish... You're not *playing* Senua or Laura Croft or whoever, you are *following* them...

 :pedobear:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on July 24, 2019, 09:28:15 PM
They can have my keyboard + mouse when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers.  :why_so_serious:  

And until they accommodate them or replace them with something better, VR will be at best a niche that I won't be participating in until it is much cheaper.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 24, 2019, 11:58:32 PM
I have probably said as much before, but I think it is wrong to see VR as a "replacement" for normal gaming.  It is more like it opens up a new avenue for gaming.  You would still want to play certain things in pancake mode, although obviously you would be dividing your time a bit.  A VR keyboard and mouse analog might eventually change that, but it doesn't feel like we are close to that.  It is not a relaxing experience, generally speaking, which PC gaming often is.  Some of it is downright fucking intense in a way PC gaming rarely is.

Back to Senua...the over the shoulder is cool as shit, but unless you have specifically tried it, don't be so sure your stomach is up to it  :awesome_for_real: 


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 25, 2019, 05:45:16 AM
Has been flying low enough to escape my radar, but Borderlands 2 is coming to PC VR probably soon (already on Playstation I think?).  That's interesting, to say the least.

Also learned that the one and only VR MMO (called Orbus) has a demo, so I will sacrifice myself to at least take at least a quick look.  Some think it is great, others say it suck.  I am betting on the latter.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 25, 2019, 06:08:38 AM
Part 10:  Anything else

Nothing new here as such, but I find myself compelled to rehash and re-consider a couple things for the benefit of anyone playing along at home, and make a few points clear regarding the Index.

First, I think it is important to re-re-re highlight the need for floor space.  Yes, there is a "Standing Only" configuration option, and yes, some people probably do Room Scale at as little as 1.5 x 1.5 meters.  But honestly, you shouldn't be looking at this kind of VR if you have to operate within those limitations.  IMO, anything less than....3 x 2.5 meters would absolutely suck.  I already find that 4 x 3 meters has me dreaming that I had 5 x 5 instead.  You have to have space.  You also have to be willing to mount lighthouses and have a bunch of unsightly cables all over the place.  You may even have to sort of be willing to re-arrange furniture and sacrifice other normal PC comforts.  I don't have a desk any more, for example.  If you cannot do some or most of these things, a different kind of VR (or no VR) should be in your sights.  Fuck, my entire living room is designed around making a space for VR.  I even have a little throw rug in the middle of the floor looking totally out of place.  It is a VR touchstone.  Yes, I am a psycho, thanks for asking.

The machine.  As stated before, I have an i9 9700k and a GTX1080 running this thing.  That's on a Z390 gamer board, a bunch of RAM (that could probably benefit from being a bit faster tbh) and two SSDs.  Which is basically to say that, while not as top of the line as it obviously could be, this is a powerful and goddamn expensive rig.  And while a straight swap from a Vive to an Index on the same hardware does give an obvious and automatic boost to the quality of the VR experience.......man, I wish my machine was faster.  I am not having an internal struggle in terms of whether or not I should upgrade my video card.  Because it is already an absolute certainty that I will.  It is only a question of whether it will be a 2080 or a 2080 Ti.  Or if I can hold out long enough for the prices to come down or something even faster to come along.

Value is relative.  To me, it is worth it, but I think it bears repeating that this is a pretty expensive hobby to get into.  A thousand bucks just to get the HMD and equipment.  A couple thousand more for the PC, unless you already meet some of the specs.  And then you need games, because little or none of what you currently have works with it. 

Just wanted to get this out of the way, because my conclusion is coming up next, and I will generally make it as an evalution of the hardware, and not so much around the cost and convenience.



Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on July 25, 2019, 01:16:41 PM
The need to rearrange things is definitely one of the factors I think about when contemplating a VR setup. My media room is certainly big enough but I'd need to move one sofa when I played, but it would be simple enough to just slide it back and forth. The bigger consideration is that I have dogs, and I would hate to be punting them around as I played. On the other hand, it probably wouldn't take them very long to figure out when the hooman is wearing the box over his eyes the idiot can't see but is still staggering around.

I do have a mostly unused "office" room which actually houses my gaming computer (as I mention frequently I stream from it). I could clean it out and play there (it's 4x4 or so), but then I actually like not being shut off from the dogs and wife when gaming.

It's another reason why I kinda like the idea of focusing on games where I can mostly continue sitting on my butt when playing.

Back on over-the-shoulder view, I cannot imagine how it would feel to do Tomb Raider from that perspective as Laura Croft jumps off ledges and slides down wires...


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 25, 2019, 01:36:33 PM
Will get back later on some of your other points, but.....I am suddenly thinking maybe there is a Tomb Raider VR demo or something?  Hmm.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Rendakor on July 25, 2019, 03:07:28 PM
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the minecraft experience in 3d because I can't stand around with controllers, but you do you.
I suppose what I mean is that if you had a working xbox controller on the one hand, and working Index controllers on the other, and both worked for a given game, you will almost certainly want to use the Index controllers.  The only exceptions I can think of are things like flight sims or driving sims, because those are things where you don't really need or want your arms moving independently.
Modded Minecraft falls into that same category. I get that I'm getting a little neckbeardy here, but there just aren't enough buttons for all of the various things you need to do in order to function in any kind of modpack on a controller (Xbox or VR). There aren't enough on a keyboard most of the time, so you end up with overlaps and hope they don't cause too big of a conflict. In some distance future, a VR-friendly UI that puts context-relevant buttons on your screen that you can touch in VR (or voice commands, or...) would be awesome. Do I expect we'll ever get that for Minecraft? No. Short of that, you can pry the keyboard from my cold dead hands. Swinging a VR controller to replicate a pickaxe is not what I want from VR; being able to just look around with a VR headset sounds amazing, but not at the cost of the gameplay experience (either by losing mods or worse controls).

Since I'm bored at work, here's a halfassed list of things that need buttons in modded Minecraft aside from movement:

In my ideal world, I suppose I would have a keyboard for my left hand, either a mouse or a VR controller in my right, and a VR headset. The headset would control looking around, the mouse/VR controller would move the cursor (behavior that I don't think MC can do), with the keyboard controlling movement (WASD + spacebar) and everything UI related. A VR controller that I could easily sit down (in case I need the right hand on the keyboard) might be a nice replacement for a mouse.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on July 25, 2019, 03:12:26 PM
... I think it is wrong to see VR as a "replacement" for normal gaming.  It is more like it opens up a new avenue for gaming.  You would still want to play certain things in pancake mode, although obviously you would be dividing your time a bit.  A VR keyboard and mouse analog might eventually change that, but it doesn't feel like we are close to that.


I half agree with that. Certainly HMD is unlikely to ever be your only, or even primary, display choice.  But it seems like HMD could be an alternative display for many kinds of normal gaming, if the input issues were addressed.  My favored solution would be a reverse AR passthrough to let me see my keyboard and hands superimposed on the game display, but only when I actually look down at it. The knuckles or a glove type input device could easily emulate a mouse provided the tracking accuracy is good enough, and I mean emulate by dragging your finger around on your desktop to move a cursor when that is more appropriate, rather than always having to point at something in 3D space.  Granted, there is no value added for the extra hassle/discomfort of an HMD when playing Minesweeper. But there could be significant value added to almost any first person game, be it MMO, RPG, survival, shooter, minecraft or whatever, without piling on the hassle of half-baked control schemes using clumsy, ill-fitting, low fidelity, hand hardware to track armwaving, much less requiring it to morph into an exercise program with a game attached.

Quote
  It is not a relaxing experience, generally speaking, which PC gaming often is.  Some of it is downright fucking intense in a way PC gaming rarely is.

This is entirely the fault of the developers focusing on implementing all the handwaving, jumping around, scary 3D movie effects, etc in their games because of the wow! new! marketing bs factors, whether the games need it or not. I understand Elite Dangerous can be a pretty relaxing and awesome experience in VR - too bad it's crippled by the need to use a keyboard (or the crappy console accomodation) sometimes.  I just don't understand why developers think they can make more money by targeting a sliver of a niche market (wealthy first person gamers with lots of space, full mobility including two working arms and an interest in jumping around using them while gaming) instead of at least the entire niche (all first person gaming).

I would like to say thanks for the writeup and discussion!  I may not be in the market for a VR rig for quite awhile, if ever, but the topic certainly fascinates me and I'm having a blast watching it mature, dreaming, and debating it. :)


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on July 28, 2019, 05:41:36 AM
I think a better way to look at it is that - until they find a convincing way to do some kind of pass-through or virtual keyboard, then the kind of games we get are the kinds of games that generally make them most sense in accordance with the state of the hardware.

Anyway, just on a related note and because it has already been mentioned:  I am pretty sure you can play Minecraft in VR using any input you want.  You could just part your butt in your chair and use your kb+m.  I mean....I personally would not see the appeal, but I have no doubt many people would.  If you were good enough to be able to find all of your keys in the dark, it would probably be pretty sweet.

Updates regarding 360 videos:  Been two years since last I tried any.  They still basically fucking suck.  The resolution is way too low for any of the stuff that is free, and it is basically a complete barf fest.  I will try to get my hands on something with real 4k resolution and see if that helps.  But clearly, 360 video is not the same as virtual reality.  Yeah, you can turn around and see stuff behind you, but it has no real depth.  Porn in 180 is more convincing from what I can see.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 02, 2019, 06:23:26 AM
So....I guess Garrys Mod can be played in VR.  I wouldn't be interested in the regular version of this, but VR?  Interesting.

More interesting is that apparently it then let's you play Half-Life 2 and maybe also CS:GO (!).  Needs some investigation to see if this is worth it or not.

Currently otherwise trying to get my Index working with Oculus software (there is a mod called ReVive that enables this), but it is causing me some issues thus far, at least for the two actual Oculus games I have.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 05, 2019, 02:00:54 AM
Haven't bothered picking up Garry's Mod, don't really have time just now.  And also, more importantly, the No Man's Sky update is coming on August 14th, and that will include the VR mod.  I am pretty excited about this.  Exactly the sort of game that should excel in VR.  I have never played the game, picked it up cheaply through somewhat respectable sources.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 16, 2019, 01:10:30 AM
Alright, No Man's Sky in VR.  First, the obvious negatives....

-It runs like shit.  From a pure framerate perspective, it is worse than Fallout by a significant amount, which makes it the new champion of shitty VR framerate performance.  On the other hand, it ends up running well enough for the most part, as the Motion Smoothing technology works better with NMS for some reason.  In any case, they really really really need to find a way to get more juice out of this one.  It is playable, but only just.

-While the adaptation to VR appears to have been done well, it is mostly a graphical conversion.  It wants you to stay rooted in place, which is mildly annoying, and many of the interactions with objects are based on button presses rather than actual hand motions.  Kinda 50/50.  One might wish for it to be a bit more interactive than it is, because some of it comes off as a bit clumsy somehow.

The positives...

-When you get it running well enough, it actually looks pretty fucking cool even on the lowest settings.  Pretty surreal.
-I had spent two hours playing before I knew it.  Clearly sucked me in.  I usually hate crafting games, but maybe this is different.
-For those of you who would like to sit on your ass and still have an interactive VR experience, this seems to fit the bill.


I have only just made it off my first planet and landed on my second.  Had to go journey off to find some copper.  The native animals on this planet are aggressive and numerous.  I actually have a constant running battle with them, using my mining laser to keep them at bay and jump up on my ship when I need a break.  What a fucking weird game.

Anyway, I am hoping for some performance patching.  The usual tweaks aren't quite doing the job.  This shit would look amazing if I could turn up the framerate and resolution.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on August 16, 2019, 10:35:21 AM
-For those of you who would like to sit on your ass and still have an interactive VR experience, this seems to fit the bill.

This is me.

What a fucking weird game.

Yep.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 16, 2019, 11:30:22 AM
For the sake of some of you lazy asses, I will try to be mindful of testing some stuff sitting down.  To see what works and what doesn’t.  I mean, you could do it with a lot of the games, but it just wouldn’t make sense for a lot of them.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on August 16, 2019, 12:24:05 PM
For the sake of some of you lazy asses, I will try to be mindful of testing some stuff sitting down.  To see what works and what doesn’t.  I mean, you could do it with a lot of the games, but it just wouldn’t make sense for a lot of them.


From the bottom of my butt, I thank you!

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 17, 2019, 09:52:10 AM
NMS feels great to me as a seated experience, it's a great 'chill in my comfy recliner' game. I've already wasted hours on this update in VR. Also agree, while I've got it running pretty good at this point, it can use some performance tweaks, so hopefully they continue to work on that. One thing to note about performance, there appears to be a lot of misinformation out there about what helps (big surprise there, I know). I had gone down the rat hole the first night and came out worse for wear. Decided to blow away all my settings and the save, and the game cache, and clean start. Minor tweaks from there and it's running, and looking, a lot better.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 17, 2019, 11:53:53 AM
.....so what is working for you?

I am currently running it at 80hz, with SS at about 100 percent (which means it is over sampled in the Index), but basically every else at standard and AA is off.  I am basically just getting 40fps, where motion smoothing then makes up the 40 frames.  It is surprisingly playable at those numbers, but I would love to turn some shit up.

I also have no idea what kind of hardware you are running.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on August 17, 2019, 04:29:45 PM
I'm a Traditional Gamer. I'm not in a Zigerion simulation so I assume the way you move around a VR game is:
1. Use controller Left Stick or keyboard WASD
2. Rail (shooter)
3. Underpants gnomes

The point about playing Nomansky via Dualshock 4 is appealing because I know how that will work. I'm assuming every other method of moving around a VR game world is somewhere on the Spectrum of Horseshit. Please educate me.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: CaptainNapkin on August 17, 2019, 07:51:06 PM
.....so what is working for you?

I am currently running it at 80hz, with SS at about 100 percent (which means it is over sampled in the Index), but basically every else at standard and AA is off.  I am basically just getting 40fps, where motion smoothing then makes up the 40 frames.  It is surprisingly playable at those numbers, but I would love to turn some shit up.

I also have no idea what kind of hardware you are running.
I'll copy what I posted at another forum, but for clarity I'm forcing ASW on in the tray tool.
Quote
Playing with a Rift S. So yeah, following too much early info regarding chasing performance proved to be a mistake for me. So I decided to start clean. Last night I updated my Nvidia drivers (running a laptop with a 1080, i7 7820hk, 32gb memory, NVME drive), forced Vsync, FXAA and Threaded Optimization off in nvidia properties, and blew away my save files, game cache, and config files. Then patched NMS to latest (via Steam), then verified integrity for good measure.

It ran immensely better right out of the gate than the mess I had modified it to. In game, set max fps to 80, set to full screen to match native laptop res (2560x1440), blur to 0, scan lines(?) off, Ansiotropic to 8, AA off, HBAO to high, and everything else to Enhanced. I also forced ASW on and set SS to 1.0 via Oculus Tray Tool. It's now looking way better and running pretty good. Still the occasional hitching or whatever you call it but I can live with that.

Last night I think I even bumped textures up a step. I'll confirm where I'm at tomorrow, I'm too wiped for VR tonight.

I will say don't expect flawless, there are hitches here and there, but nothing that is keeping me from continuing to play. That said I'm of the "we're still early adoption phase of this VR shit so I can deal" in general with VR games and performance/quality/etc. The only things that really bug in NMS so far are the jaggies, only during the daytime, on the ridgelines of distance mountain ranges where the sky meets them, it's like an entirely different resolution I don't get it and doesn't look that way at night. And the wacko reflections or shadows or whatever when looking over water.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 18, 2019, 04:31:23 AM
Interesting choices.  I will try some of that.  I am okay with less than flawless.  Cannot expect too much with a 1080.

I'm a Traditional Gamer. I'm not in a Zigerion simulation so I assume the way you move around a VR game is:
1. Use controller Left Stick or keyboard WASD
2. Rail (shooter)
3. Underpants gnomes

The point about playing Nomansky via Dualshock 4 is appealing because I know how that will work. I'm assuming every other method of moving around a VR game world is somewhere on the Spectrum of Horseshit. Please educate me.

Okay, put it this way.  Imagine you were holding your Dualshock in a VR environment.  Now, pretend it splits right down the middle.  You now have thumbstick and button control in each hand.  You are probably using your left hand to move or slide around your game.  You have buttons on each hand to do all your pew pew and whatnot.  You even have a thumbstick in the right hand for whatever.

Now, imagine that on top of that, you can now also point with either of your half DS controllers.  The one in your left not only helps you move/slide around, but you can influence your direct by pointing it wherever you want.  In the right hand, you no longer have to rely on the clumsy thumbstick to aim....you just aim it like you are holding a mining laser, gun, or whatever.

On top of that, you can simply turn your head, or even turn your whole body around, by doing that in the real world without needing your controllers.  You can use your controller to aid you in doing that if you want, but you do not have to.

Your controllers also become your hands and finger for when you need to press a button or open a hatch.

You can also squat down in the real world, causing you to squat down in VR.  You can go prone.  In NMS, these things don’t matter, but they sure as shit do in other games like Skyrim and Fallout.

And lastly, although it is not enabled for NMS (thanks, PSVR), you can usually literally walk around your real world space and interact with stuff.  In some games it is where you take several steps over an pull a switch or something.  Other times, you just kinda move half a step over to loot a corpse.

Almost all of these things, even when clumsily implemented, are an improvement over Dualshock control.  There are exceptions....flight stick control and steering wheel control are probably better regular controllers.

That’s my best effort at describing it.  The real negative is the physical effort that comes with it.  Especially if you simply do not want to stand.  I wouldn’t even recommend an Index if that is the case.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Yegolev on August 18, 2019, 09:01:37 PM
I have a pretty small area to move around in and so won't be able to walk far in the real. Which seems OK as long as I can use the stick to move.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 19, 2019, 12:54:56 AM
While the whole idea behind "room scale" is that you can actually walk around and use all of that space - and there are a number of games specifically designed for that - in the real world what it means is that you have a safe bubble around you in which you can move.  Dodge, swing, crounch, lay down, pick up stuff, etc.....without smashing into furniture or walls.  90% of the time, you just want to have enough room to safely do those things.  If something is a ways out of your reach, you use the thumbstick to navigate to it.  If that same thing is two feet a way, you physically shuffle over to it and pick it up. 

In theory, you can do this in as little as 2 x 2 meters.  But fuuuuuuuck that.  You find yourself so immersed into shit sometimes that it is far too easy to encroach on the boundaries.  You would have to mentally train yourself to root your feet to the spot.  I would find that annoying.  As it is now, I have the virtual wall set up at something around 4m x 3m, and the wall actually illuminates if you get close to it.  I have a centering mark in VR so that I always know where front and center is if I look for the mark.  I also have a 1.5m diameter fluffy carpet center in the space, because having a physical touchstone has proven to be very handy.  And still.....I occasionally get carried away enough to punch random furniture.



Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Sky on August 19, 2019, 09:32:03 AM
That's another reason I'm not interested in the stuff you gush about, and just want a good 3D experience with existing controls. It's not because I don't 'get it', it's because my available area for VR might be 6ftx8ft, with many MANY unpunchable things in or around it (guitars, lamps, etc). I don't have room in my house to waste on 'open space'.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 19, 2019, 11:09:48 AM
Yep, but you are getting close to the minimum recommended space.  And as said before, I will try to park my butt on a chair for some stuff and let you know what I think.  I already know i will be a bit dumb for things like Fallout and Skyrim, but NMS works and I can think of several others as well.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on August 19, 2019, 11:50:33 AM
Just wanted to add in that if I ever have to "go prone" in a game I hope the rest of the game is playable from the floor, cause I'm not getting back up anytime soon.

That said, I am interested in reading about all styles of the VR experience, so don't stop describing the more physical games -- just keep in mind that some of us aren't primarily the customers for that sort of experience but are still pretty interested in VR.

This Christmas might be the time I take the plunge too...


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 19, 2019, 01:03:41 PM
Noted.  It’s not like you HAVE to do those things, but if you can do so it sure improves the experience.  Sneaking around in FO and Skyrim - especially the latter - is very rewarding.

I expect all of you would be interested in some basic melee stuff, despite protestations to the contrary.  You can generally do that stuff without too much exertion.  Beatsaber (not a melee fighting game, but close enough) is extremely popular for a reason.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Mandella on August 19, 2019, 02:53:39 PM
Oh I am looking forward to looking like a complete fool to anyone watching me play Beat Saber.

That one is definitely the exception.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Tale on August 20, 2019, 02:09:15 AM
I think I am becoming sold on an Oculus Quest, perhaps for Christmas. No wires, decent resolution, sounds like it just works. Steam VR through ALVR is very good by all accounts. Currently all I have is a Gear VR, but apparently ALVR works with that so I'm planning to set it up and see how I like it (and imagine more pixels).


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 20, 2019, 02:43:14 AM
Just make sure you understand what you are getting.  Quest does not play many (most?) of the most compelling stuff as far as I understand, and the stuff that it does play it does so at a serious graphical compromise (and even great VR is a graphical compromise).

Might still totally be worth it.  I can see the appeal of a self-contained system like that.



Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Tale on August 20, 2019, 03:27:06 AM
This post sold me. (https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/bu86io/elite_dangerous_on_oculus_quest_via_alvr/)

Quote
I set ALVR to 150% scale and 80 mbps. The game looks phenomenal on the Quest, and I had very few frame drops. I might play this way from now on rather than using my Rift, as everything is much clearer! (Edit: Sound gets out of sync on this video, but it was perfect when playing live)


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 20, 2019, 04:27:41 AM
But you do understand what ALVR, yes?  The only way you can play any intensive game on the Quest is by using ALVR.  This is just video streaming, essentially.  You still need a monster PC.  I would think the main benefit would be that you are untethered.  The drawbacks, on the other hand, are significant....a bit of latency being one, and definitely some poorer visuals.  Poorer tracking.  And so on.  For the total cost of ownership, I cannot imagine why anyone would go with that setup.  

That said, money is an issue to be considered.  Hard to define what "value" is from one person to the next.

Edit:  I feel I should also add:  The idea of streaming it is fucking amazing, but that will make more sense when you can buy a service and not have to have your own machine.  If you are going to be forced to have a high end machine anyway, may as well go whole hog.


Title: Re: Index/Oculus/Vive/PSVR
Post by: Cyrrex on August 23, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
Out of absolutely nowhere comes Westworld Awakening.

Yeah, that Westworld.  Instant buy.  I won't say much or give much away at this point, nor do I have an opinion of the game as such after 15 minutes, but......graphically incredible.  Runs like a dream, and holy shit does it look the business.  From a realism standpoint, by far the best looking VR game.  The facial animations are absurd.