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Cyrrex
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Reply #175 on: September 10, 2016, 04:05:24 AM

Yep.

Aaaaaaaaand I just got a zombie game.  HordeZ.  OMG.  Unbelievable.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Rendakor
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Reply #176 on: September 10, 2016, 06:37:17 AM

That stuff all sounds really cool, assuming they can make it work with real games. I have no interest in playing simple games that are just more immersive because VR. Get this shit working with Skyrim though, and I'm fucking sold.

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
MrHat
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Reply #177 on: September 10, 2016, 07:41:17 AM

Try Ping Pong Waves and Holopoint.

So good.
Cyrrex
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Reply #178 on: September 10, 2016, 08:32:43 AM

That stuff all sounds really cool, assuming they can make it work with real games. I have no interest in playing simple games that are just more immersive because VR. Get this shit working with Skyrim though, and I'm fucking sold.

Well, two things.  One, there is no reason something like this wouldn't work for Skyrim.  They are going to do a Fallout 4 conversion, which is obviously similar.

Two, you miss the point a little if you skip the simpler games.  The immersion factor and the control interface takes a game that would ordinarily suck, and turn it into something extremely compelling.  Vanishing Realms is the best example I can give of this so far.  It is fantastic, yet ridiculously simplistic.  I am sure there is a bunch of bullshit out there as well, but I haven't run into any of it yet.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Strazos
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Reply #179 on: September 10, 2016, 09:50:51 AM

Or hell, how about that cartoonish game about barbarians invading your castle, and you have to fend them off from a tower with your bow and arrows? The mechanics of the weapon were fantastic. The sense of depth perception needs a little work (for the system in general), but it's a hell of a lot of fun.

Is it a simple game? Yes. It's also still a very young ecosystem - let it mature. If this was the NES, you couldn't expect someone to release Startropics or some other late-gen title as a release game; gotta give time for people to figure out what it's really capable of.

Fear the Backstab!
"Plato said the virtuous man is at all times ready for a grammar snake attack." - we are lesion
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Cyrrex
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Reply #180 on: September 10, 2016, 11:19:29 PM

Yes, it is exactly that sort of thing that works.  It isn't the kind of thing that will have you come back again and again, but it shows how something simple can be made to work.

It is clear that hack-n-slash, action RPG titles work well with this tech (and possibly totally revolutionizes them).  Maybe just say "adventure" games in general.  FPS shooting works as well, but only where movement can be managed in a non-traditional way (like teleporting or floating between static points).  Remember arcade games like Operation Wolf?  Thing along those lines, only being put right smack in the middle of it.  Honestly, anything where you have to hold a weapon in your hand has the potential to be amazing.  That zombie game I referred to in an earlier post...it is probably going to be pretty shallow and repetitive, but I can't really put into words what the experience is like.  The zombies look real, the guns feel real, and you really do feel like you are in the middle of a zombie swarm.  My flabbers were gasted.

Last night I was playing Vanishing realms.  Got physically tired.  Saw a miner's tent off in the distance, and went to investigate.  Lit his campfire, crawled into his tent and chilled.  Felt like I was really in the tent.  10 out of 10, would camp again.


"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Strazos
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Reply #181 on: September 11, 2016, 07:37:06 AM

Modern remakes in the vein of Virtua Cop, Time Crisis, or House of the Dead could be amazing. Also, point-and-click style adventures where you need to search rooms for things or otherwise interact with the environment to solve puzzles could be mind-blowing.

Getting back to Vanishing Realms, it does a lot of little things right - I have to actually move my hands to loot items. I can light other torches or candles with the torch I am "carrying" in my hand. I can peek over my shield and talk shit to the skeleton archer as I casually block or dodge his shots.

There's also a really neat rhythm game called Audioshield that's a heck of a lot of fun, and really reinforces how accurate the controls are.

Once I'm back in the US and get set up, I'm definitely going to plunk a lot of cash into a VR setup. I just wish there was some sort of wireless option, because the cord trail is a minor nuisance.

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Sir T
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Reply #182 on: September 11, 2016, 08:54:49 AM

Here is the question though - how are you going to aim something that you can't feel in your hand, and how is such more effective than using a controller or mouse - keyboard for control?

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Rendakor
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Reply #183 on: September 11, 2016, 09:08:34 AM

The last few posts have all been about the Vive which has controller things.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #184 on: September 11, 2016, 10:54:54 AM

Here is the question though - how are you going to aim something that you can't feel in your hand, and how is such more effective than using a controller or mouse - keyboard for control?

The last few posts have all been about the Vive which has controller things.

Yeah, this isn't some silly shit where you are waving your hands in front of a camera.  Read what I wrote about the controls a few posts back.  They are incredible.  I am not sure they are "more effective" than kbm control...but it is mind blowing how realistic they feel.  If you are hold a gun in the game, your brain will be utterly convinced you are holding a real gun. 

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Strazos
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Reply #185 on: September 11, 2016, 12:26:37 PM

I'm not sure your aim will technically be better, unless you can legitimately aim (the controllers are pretty darn precise).

However, with the motion tracking, you can theoretically get yourself into weird positions to cheat around corners that are impossible in convention games. And you can do things "off-screen" that cannot be done in normal games.

The controllers really are good. For instance, you can hold a gun, spin it around, and inspect it close-up, and it feels...pretty darn good.

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Mandella
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Reply #186 on: September 11, 2016, 12:29:31 PM

I just wish there was some sort of wireless option, because the cord trail is a minor nuisance.

I was reading somewhere that some third party was trying to engineer a wireless option, and I had pretty much decided to wait on one before I jumped into the Vive...

Now, dammit, you guys got me tempted again. All I've got to do is move the sofa against a wall and I've got a perfect VR space here in the Media Room...
Cyrrex
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Reply #187 on: September 12, 2016, 01:06:00 AM

I would be pretty skeptical about someone being able to pull of a convincing wireless option just yet.  The amount of data that has to be sent wireless to a headset, without any lag and at 90fps minimum?  Seems problematic.  I think it is technically possible to do it to an extent, but I bet it would look like butthole.  Anyway, the cable seems a small price to pay for the experience, and sometimes it is no issue at all.

Back to the controls conversation and precision and all that.  You cannot compare this fairly to keyboard and mouse input, it is a totally different paradigm.  Apples to watermelons.  The last thing you want when you play any of these games is a keyboard and mouse (though if the game is originally designed that way for the mass market, that might be different?).  The only thing you miss is a form of locomotion that resembles a control pad/stick input...they can of course do this already with the controller if they want to, but developers tend to find other means of locomotion (teleporting, hover movevement, etc.) because traditional movement via thumbstick or keyboard is what causes the nausea effect you sometimes hear about in VR.  The average brain can't figure it out.  Would be nice if developers gave you both options, but most games right now seem to be designed around it.  I suspect it will be included more commonly as adoption increases.

But sacrificing the locomotion controls and lack of mouse style aiming is so totally worth it.  This zombie game I bought called HordeZ.  It is super simplistic in nature - you stand on something that looks like a hoverboard, and you very slowly (and I mean veeeeeery slow...to avoid the nausea effect) are transported on rails down a pre-determined path, occasionally stopping so that the zombie hordes can come after you.  Imagine being in a dark apartment building corridor.  There is hallway in front of you and hallway behind.  Doors off to either side.  You hover along and have to cover this entire 360 degree space in all 3 dimensions.  Zombies are coming at you.  You pull out your pistols, akimbo style, and prepare to defend yourself as the horde tries to swarm you.  Zombies coming from the left, zombies from the right.  Zombies right in front of you.  Just as you would probably do in the real world, minus the pants-shitting, you deal with this by shooting up targets with one hand right in front of you while simultaneously shooting at things offscreen with your other hand.  Head on a swivel.  Uh oh, too many coming from the left, need to unload both pistols.  Reload.  Swivel.  Shooting shit onscreen and shooting shit offscreen, swivelling and pirouetting the whole time, fully entranced in your macabre dance.  The very idea of being able to address things offscreen, and doing so by holding something in your hand that your brain is convinced is an actual weapon....it is a transcendent experience.  And yes, you can sight down your pistol accurately and pull of a headshot if you want.  This particular game is so rudimentary, so unpolished, and there are so many obvious ways it could be made better, and yet at the same time it has to be the most amazing gaming experience I have ever had.  A game that would be utterly retarded shovelware without the VR and the Vive controllers is instead an extremely convincing zombie slaughter simulator.  It is so realistic that I am having difficulty getting it out of my head.

I am pretty convinced now that this is not a gimmick.  It is going to take some time for the rate of adoption to be significant, because A) the computing power required would still be considered cutting edge and expensive, and B) you need room.  But if you have the means, and are already curious about VR....

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
apocrypha
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Reply #188 on: September 12, 2016, 02:09:43 AM

I am pretty convinced now that this is not a gimmick.  It is going to take some time for the rate of adoption to be significant, because A) the computing power required would still be considered cutting edge and expensive, and B) you need room.  But if you have the means, and are already curious about VR....

Don't forget C) it's still really fucking expensive (although I guess you covered that in "if you have the means").

I'm interested to know what the take-up has been like, what kind of progress (if any, yet) is being made towards the next gen of the hardware, what the prospects are for price reductions in the medium term, etc. I think the 'very interested, but not until it gets better/cheaper' group is pretty large, but I'm guessing that the current gen needs to be successful enough that the hardware & software devs are prepared to sink the time & money into escorting the payload.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #189 on: September 12, 2016, 02:49:18 AM

Expensive indeed, and that is even if you already have a PC with at least a GTX 970 in it.  That said, I have more than once in my life dropped two grand on a television (I once dropped 3 grand I think) and I have a projector that cost me a grand or so.  I have even done the whole 3D Vision thing with Nvidia's tech.  Nothing, and I mean nothing, compares to this particular technological leap in terms of its initial impact and my first experiences with it.  I've had it for only three days, though, so we'll see.

I'm also curious about the uptake.  On the positive side, there seem to be a lot of software coming out for it, much more than I would have thought at this point.  On the other hand, not much of it is AAA and most of it is pretty short or in Early Access state.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Strazos
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Reply #190 on: September 12, 2016, 03:09:20 AM

If I was back in the US, I would have bought a Vive weeks ago.

Then again, I've spent ~$3k each on a TV, PC, and laptop within the last 2.5 years, so...  Ohhhhh, I see.

Speaking of my laptop...I wonder if I could run a Vive off of it. It has a 980m chipset, and I'll have the space once i move on-base out here... DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #191 on: September 12, 2016, 03:43:37 AM

The current murmur on the sales channels is that both the Vive and the Oculus are dead in the water now that the pre-order glut has been over and dealt with.
Cyrrex
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Reply #192 on: September 12, 2016, 04:16:08 AM

Looks kinda hard to get real numbers on anything.  But there sure as hell is a lot of stuff coming out on Steam, at least in alpha form.  More than I would have guessed, considering the likely uptake.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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Reply #193 on: September 12, 2016, 04:30:04 AM

"Still in planning stage" for Vive 2 atm according to this piece. No surprise, I really think VR needs a few good AAA titles for it and a significant price drop before the uptake will be any more than marginal.

It's probably a Catch-22 situation. Uptake won't increase without price drops, which won't happen without higher uptake. That article makes a comparison with console cycles of up to 7 years, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if VR had product cycles of much longer than a year or two.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
MrHat
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Reply #194 on: September 12, 2016, 07:08:26 AM

If you're worried about price and still want to mess with one: do what I did and buy one to use for a few weeks and then return it. It's consumer electronics, not PC hardware, and usually comes with a 30 day return policy (Microcenter).

It was totally worth it. Everyone that used it was blown away. A few of the games are legit amazing.  That being said, it really does need another revision or two.

My biggest complaint was it's incredibly isolating. 
Venkman
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Reply #195 on: September 12, 2016, 03:49:00 PM

All of this. The tech is amazing and some of the experiences do a wonderful job. But it's isolating, expensive, and the experiences are inconsistent.

Before we get to AAA investments, there needs to be a real market. And to get there, we need a Wii-era Nintendo: a company that thinks both hardware and software in the same breath.

Who's left that can do that?

For now, these feel like science experiments, only possible because of crowdfunding and retailers scrambling for any semblance of a CE business. That's a good thing, because if people pay, companies will continue to experiment. But I don't see \any of the crazy compromises these things require sustaining.

Doesn't mean I don't want a Vive setup smiley
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Reply #196 on: September 12, 2016, 09:45:07 PM

I'm likely to take a real hard look at the budget when Fallout 4 comes out for VR. I think Doom will also be great for it, and I will probably end up getting it just to have another game for it. But Fallout 4 will ensure the setup gets a workout that could potentially head north of 100 hours.
Cyrrex
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Reply #197 on: September 12, 2016, 10:23:49 PM

Most of the time when I have been playing, both of my older boys have been in the room, so it has actually been the opposite of isolation for us.  That probably messes with immersion a bit sometimes, but a good trade off in general.  But back to being fair and balanced, here's a few negatives:

- The headset it not really comfortable, and there is a sweetspot for keeping things in focus which can be very fiddly
- Longer play sessions leave me feeling...messed up.  Eye strain, I am thinking, something I never experience with a PC or mobile device.
- Similarly, I find that the experiences in general are intense and that I can still feel it back in the "real world".  Like it is leaving some kind of psychological mark or something.
- The above points make me wonder about a big, long AAA experience like Fallout or Skyrim...it might just kill me.  Some people on the internet claim they can use the thing for hours on end with no ill effects, but I am skeptical of those claims.
- Much of the software is either very short and limited, or just previews/prologues of things to come.  Some of those previews looking unbelievably promising, but still...will they actually come to fruition?


"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Rendakor
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Reply #198 on: September 13, 2016, 05:30:42 AM

Do any of you guys who have it wear glasses?

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Bunk
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Reply #199 on: September 13, 2016, 07:32:04 AM

I do, and its not much of a big deal. I do wear progressives, so things at the bottom of the screen are a bit fuzzy for me. I've been considering getting a cheap pair of non-progressives just for vr. As long as your frames are small, you shouldn't have issues.

Oculus touch controllers are due out around November I believe, so I still have that to look forward to. Still haven't tried anything with hand controls.

I'm really curious about how the FO4 port is going to work - if they come up with a reasonable control scheme for it. Straight up running around in VR via controller is tough on the inner ear. Ten minutes of Ethan Carter left me reeling.

Cyrrex - the whole wonky feeling will get better with time and acclimatization - but don't push it. When you start feeling it, take it off.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #200 on: September 13, 2016, 07:43:43 AM

A little demo called Budget Cuts has me thinking that the stealth genre could be huge with this stuff.  Think old school Metal Gear, hiding around corners, under boxes, ventilation shafts.  Would be amazing.  I actually had a moment of idiocy where I was up in the ceiling crawling around and looking down through a vent hole...kept pushing my head down so that I could stick my head through and get a view of the robot sentries.  I bonked my face on the floor.  I also have to keep reminding myself "don't sit on that chair it's not a real chair".  Haven't sat down on one yet, but it is only a matter of time.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Venkman
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Reply #201 on: September 13, 2016, 08:10:12 AM

- The above points make me wonder about a big, long AAA experience like Fallout or Skyrim...it might just kill me.  Some people on the internet claim they can use the thing for hours on end with no ill effects, but I am skeptical of those claims.
I've read in a few places this is dependent on age. Like, the older one is, the more established their physiology is, the less adaptable to the sensory-screwups longterm VR use can cause.

I'll see if I can dig it up, but it makes sense. I dunno how older you are, but I'm of an age that didn't grow up with two smartphones hanging three inches from eyeballs all day smiley After about 15 minutes on even the best systems, I need to take a break. Usually the break is at most half a minute. But that's a far cry from plopping my ass in a chair for a "wait, what the hell time is it?!" marathon RPG or MMO session.

I'm also very curious how FO4 is going to work. Movement in VR is a problem, as discussed here. There's a great stationary bike company that has a compelling solution to it that I've experienced a few times at shows and it works pretty well. There's also this interesting foot-used tilt board that has a sort of hoverboard feel in VR. But even with Vive, best I could hope for in FO4 would be moving around my little living room ingame.

A game built around a cover mechanic though, like the combat parts of ME3 where you can play largely stationary until you need to rush to another cover, that could work ok. But that rush sequence will play havoc on the inner ear unless it's purely a teleporter.

Granted, FO4 has a cover mechanic, but it's not nearly rigid enough for VR imho.
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Reply #202 on: September 13, 2016, 08:16:19 AM

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/09/13/playstation-vr-demo-disc-has-18-games-in-north-america-8-in-europe

Here's a full list of included game trials:

Allumette
Battlezone
DriveClub VR
Eve: Valkyrie
Gnog
Harmonix Music VR
Headmaster
Here They Lie
Job Simulator
PlayStation VR Worlds
Resident Evil 7 Biohazard - Kitchen Teaser
Rez Infinite
Rigs Mechanized Combat League
Thumper
Tumble VR
Until Dawn: Rush of Blood
Wayward Sky
Within
KallDrexx
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Reply #203 on: September 13, 2016, 08:22:07 AM

Cyrrex
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Reply #204 on: September 14, 2016, 12:48:21 AM

Problem with the backpack solution (other than the obvious ones) is that it doesn't do anything about how to track your movement in space.  Oculus doesn't even have that tech, so the backpack doesn't solve any actual problem.  HTC does have it, but by having staticly placed lighthouses.  So a backpack doesn't solve that one either.  And then even if it did magically let you walk around the real world, how would you see anything?  Interesting idea and something that might eventually become a stop gap solution, but right now it is solving problems that don't yet exist.  Right now it seems like an expensive way to put a 15 pound brick on your back for the sake of untethering yourself.  Am I missing something?

- The above points make me wonder about a big, long AAA experience like Fallout or Skyrim...it might just kill me.  Some people on the internet claim they can use the thing for hours on end with no ill effects, but I am skeptical of those claims.
I've read in a few places this is dependent on age. Like, the older one is, the more established their physiology is, the less adaptable to the sensory-screwups longterm VR use can cause.

I'll see if I can dig it up, but it makes sense. I dunno how older you are, but I'm of an age that didn't grow up with two smartphones hanging three inches from eyeballs all day smiley After about 15 minutes on even the best systems, I need to take a break. Usually the break is at most half a minute. But that's a far cry from plopping my ass in a chair for a "wait, what the hell time is it?!" marathon RPG or MMO session.

I'm also very curious how FO4 is going to work. Movement in VR is a problem, as discussed here. There's a great stationary bike company that has a compelling solution to it that I've experienced a few times at shows and it works pretty well. There's also this interesting foot-used tilt board that has a sort of hoverboard feel in VR. But even with Vive, best I could hope for in FO4 would be moving around my little living room ingame.

A game built around a cover mechanic though, like the combat parts of ME3 where you can play largely stationary until you need to rush to another cover, that could work ok. But that rush sequence will play havoc on the inner ear unless it's purely a teleporter.

Granted, FO4 has a cover mechanic, but it's not nearly rigid enough for VR imho.

Mass Effect also came to mind as a game that would be amazing with this tech.  Really, most kinds of games could be made to work, and the teleporting function is less bothersome than you might expect.  The other solution they use is a "sprint" mechanic, which is different than teleporting in that you can actually see/feel yourself running through the space (and maybe you still exist as a target in multiplayer, no idea).  It works as well, because it happens so fast that your inner ear doesn't really have time to register the problem.  Again, though, I think when they tackle some of these other games and genres they will have to implement BOTH a teleport/sprint function as well as a traditional movement system.  The track pad on the Vive can be made to work just fine for movement if they want to, and then it would be up to the individual person to figure out which one to choose.  Multiplayer is the problem, because the playing field needs to be equal.  But fuck multiplayer.

I will update regularly how well I am adapting to the sensations.  I'm 43.  In general I don't get eye strain, and it would be fair to say I am in excellent physical condition otherwise.  Also, I tried something interesting last night - some of you were asking about eye glasses.  I wear contact lenses and am nearsighted (-2.0 in each eye), and it occurred to me that the screen is VERY close to my eyeballs.  Even though you are focusing on something far away in your brain, it is still actually close in reality - a bit of a paradox.  So I took my contacts out and tested.  I cannot be completely sure without trying it out a few more times, but I did not notice a significant difference in clarity.  Certainly not anything like in the real world, where I feel like I am totally blind without lenses.  Maybe I will notice it more over an extended period of play time, but it leads me to think that you might not even need your corrective lenses on.  I suppose it could depend a great deal on how blind you are.  Anyway, I was quite surprised by the initial result.

On a side, played just a single round of HordeZ last night.  A new poorly lit sewer level I hadn't tried before, and I upped the difficulty slightly.  Man oh man, I am not ashamed to tell you that it fucked me up a little.  I am pretty good at suspending disbelief (which is plus with this VR stuff) and letting my imagination take over, and it scared the crap out of me.  There are a couple of games that are designed to be legit scary, much more so than this one, but I am not sure I have the gonads for them.  

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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Reply #205 on: September 14, 2016, 03:21:26 AM

Problem with the backpack solution (other than the obvious ones) is that it doesn't do anything about how to track your movement in space.  

Movement is relative.  They'd have to track the movement of (objects in) the environment relative to the backpack, and extrapolate.
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Reply #206 on: September 14, 2016, 04:08:33 AM

Yeah, I see how they could do that, but how do they know where the walls are?  Where the door is?  Where the chair is?  The location of the legos on the carpet or the dogshit in the backyard.  Etcetera.  The point is, you have to pre-define a play space somehow, do you not?  And pre-defining that space is what the Vive is already doing.  Nothing about that computer backpack solution tells me that they have magically solved those other problems.  The user pictured in the article is even using a Vive, which indicates to me that this is just a way to sever the tether.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just not seeing it.  Maybe there is more to it than what they said in that link.  Of course, anything that advances the technology towards something more portable and/or wireless is still a net positive, so there's at least that.

Also, I'd personally love the idea of a working treadmill being put into practice, but I doubt something like that could ever work as a commercial product.  Even I would have trouble convincing the wife of something like that.  No way something like that goes mainstream anytime soon.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
KallDrexx
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Reply #207 on: September 14, 2016, 05:08:55 AM

The purpose of the backpack isn't so you can VR through your house, it's so you can:

1) Not have to worry about tripping over your Oculus/Vive's cables
2) Not be tethered to a specific room in your house
3) Be able to bring your VR experience to friends houses with ease.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #208 on: September 14, 2016, 09:21:56 AM

Yeah, that. Unless you're playing in a giant gym, movement solutions need to be based on the controls, not on the gear location. That should only matter for local movement like dodging, ducking, hiding behind walls, etc. It's a hell of a puzzle, which is why the Fallout/Doom thing is going to be a very interesting release. If Bethsoft pulls it off, it could make the VR thing, if they screw it up, it could break it.

As I've said, that's the event I have my eye on when considering the tech.
Cyrrex
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Reply #209 on: September 15, 2016, 08:09:28 AM

You might be right, but my concern is not so much about the movement controls - as I am pretty sure I would be fine even with a teleport/sprint implementation.  I am more curious to see if they can pull it off on the purely graphical side.  Or if they even attempt to re-create the whole experience.  Tall order.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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