Star Wars : Into Spoilers - The Spoiler awakens.

[eldaec]

I'm pretty sure I'll prefer TFA on repeated viewings because I can't imagine I'll start willing TFA to get to the good bits or get annoyed when it cuts from space battle to ewoks the way I do in RotJ.

[Soulflame]

The problem with Ewoks is that you have this multi solar system spanning empire supplying "An entire legion of my best troops" (per Palpatine himself!) Said legion of best troops is easily dismantled by a one tribe of goddamn primitives using rocks.  In minutes.  My eyes cannot roll hard enough every time I see the bolas strangling men in armor.  Or AT-ATs destroyed by fucking trees.  Or vines strung across the path.

If this is the best the empire has to offer, how do they manage to hold anything?  Clearly a horde of preschoolers armed with popsicle sticks would be capable of routing your average garrison.  And it really takes the shine off of the rest movie.

[MahrinSkel]

If the rumors that those scenes were originally written for Kashyyk and Wookies are true, it would have worked a little better. 8 foot tall furballs with bowcasters that also used vines and tree deadfalls wouldn't have been as jarring as waddling teddy bears.

--Dave

[Soulflame]

Agreed.  Wookiees are already in-universe badasses (Chewbacca!) so imagining a large group of them pulling the same thing isn't much of a stretch.

How the Ewoks managed to set up all of what they managed (particularly chop down those large trees, and drag them up high enough to hit an AT-AT or AT-ST or whatever it was precisely in the cab) is beyond my imagination.  There was an episode of Myth Busters where they demonstrated a similar thing with trees and an armored van.  It did work, but it took them hours, maybe days, and heavy equipment to manage it.

[Merusk]

Way back when in 4th or 5th grade I read some news article in the weeks before Jedi released after these same complaints came up on the school playground. I remember from the article that the Ewoks were supposed to be "as strong as 5-7 adult humans."

However I've never, ever, ever been able to find reference to that again. Once I heard about how Endor was originally to be Kashyyk I've assumed the articles writer spoke with someone at one of the first drafts. Who knows, it's 33-some years in the past, now.

Fuck people who bitch about 6. Seriously fuck you. Oh so it had Ewoks. Fucking shut the fuck up. God you people would take a shit on your own birthday cake if you could. It was a perfectly fine movie, with good action and a satisfying ending.

That's why I was pointing out the flaws in the first place. Not to bring Jedi down but to point out it's loved despite the very obvious flaws to people in their 30's and 40's. Therefore the pendants bitching about TFA need to ratchet it down a notch. They're goddamn space fairy tales and none are unassailable. Enjoy them for what they are or admit you're too cynical and broken to find your inner child anymore and move the fuck on.

[Ghambit]

I really try to restrict the number of posts I make about how bad 3D is, but just to follow up Ghambits point about the 70mm edition, it really demonstrates how much of a plague on mankind 3d is, when Star Wars of all things can't justify shooting entirely in imax because less than a couple of dozen screens in the world will show the damn film in correct format; preferring to show retrofitted 3d of all things because for some reason people will pay 20% extra for a shittier image.

But yes, the 15/70mm is beautiful.

The local IMAX had to fight pretty hard to get it shown right.  They even had an infosite explaining the differences and so forth to moviegoers who were all like "wtf, why not 3D?" The theatre is managed by some pretty hardcore cinemaphiles though.  Then again, their pricing structure is the same regardless of format, so that likely had something to do with it.  In contrast, the prior 3d true imax I saw in Albuquerque just couldn't effectively bring the entire image into focus given the screen size; especially at the periphery.  A lot of double-image and lack of contrast.  They also didn't have the proprietary IMAX sound setup.  I blame this on the fact Regal is pushing its own RPX format, which is good for dumbed-down 3d IMAX films in some cases.

Recall, I saw del Toro's Pacific Rim (which was filmed with this type of format it mind; 35/70mm film 3D) in this same theatre and it was damned glorious to me.  Whereas folk who saw it "normally" thought the movie sucked.  :shrug

Back to the movie....  Snoke is Plagueis, quite obviously.  All sith lords have two names, one bland "standard" name and one darth name.  Hence why the name "Snoke" is so lame.  Also, he clearly is an injured Muun as was Plageuis post Sideous' betrayal (if he survived).  The music is the same.  He was called "the wise" purposefully by Kylo.

The theory about Kylo being the Resistance's Luke-trained spearpoint against Snoke is an interesting one, especially given Snoke likely being Plagueis... a tremendous danger to the galaxy.  Han and Leia (understanding this danger) sent Kylo away to be trained by Luke and go undercover (hence Leia wishing she never did); eventually getting caught between the light and the dark...  It all went wrong and Luke had to abandon Kylo and go underground, leaving the Knights of Ren to be twisted towards the darkside; to the extent he had to murder his family ala Palpatine in order to fully engender himself to Snoke.  Han "helps" him by completing this part of his mission, in death.   His grandfather's unfinished rite to bring the balance is Kylo's ultimate goal, at all cost including his own soul.  Kylo will eventually destroy Plagueis to that effect, but not before wreaking Skywalker havoc on the galaxy.  His family is essentially a martyr for it; ultimately doomed.

Rey is a wiped Padowan who was "programmed" to sit on Jakku, hence her clearly robotic behavior (and why I hated her character so much) and obvious skills.  She broke her "programming" just like Finn broke his, who was programmed to be a loyal Stormtrooper.  They both were essentially awakened in this way, re-kindling innate skills and behavior.  Finn's betrayal, uncanny luck, and shooting skill may point him moreso to being Lando's son.  Lando had Jedi-like qualities in this regard, if you recall... manifesting in his gambling prowess (he rarely lost) and aim (single-shot deathstar kill and so forth).  Lando also betrayed the empire, becoming a general for the rebels eventually.

I'm thinking the franchise will break away from the Skywalkers with Rey and Finn.  I'm hoping they're force-carriers but not by Jedi-blood.  The Skywalkers will ultimately sacrifice themselves for the fate of the galaxy with Rey and Finn's help, basically... and things will start anew; ending that particular family space-opera.  Also, maybe we'll see a proper bi-racial relationship in a blockbuster franchise?  It could happen, maybe.  Probably not.   

[Malakili]

I just don't see why Snoke is Plagueis.  There is no reason for them to trot that character out in this series.  The casual fan/viewer won't remember a character mentioned in one scene in the prequels and the fans will at best roll their eyes at something from the prequels coming back when there is no reason.  Could it be? Sure I guess.  But the question is why.

As for your backstory speculation, I think they are trying to get away from that kind of story.  It's all about Anakin and Luke in that theory and I think they want to establish the new characters more than make this trilogy ANOTHER one all about Anakin Sykwalker.

[Soulflame]

If it is Plagueis it explains why there's another darkside force user running around so soon after the death of the last two Sith.  Although I suppose 20+ years is enough time for someone to train up and become a powerful force user?  I think holocrons are canon?

Still, it's interesting to see the bits where the person they've shown does seem to fit Plageuis.  Of course, it could be a misdirect, or something.  Eventually we'll see the actual Snoke, and it'll be be a damned Ewok.

[Abagadro]

The problem with Ewoks is that you have this multi solar system spanning empire supplying "An entire legion of my best troops" (per Palpatine himself!) Said legion of best troops is easily dismantled by a one tribe of goddamn primitives using rocks.  In minutes.  My eyes cannot roll hard enough every time I see the bolas strangling men in armor.  Or AT-ATs destroyed by fucking trees.  Or vines strung across the path.

Yes, indigenous populations using improvised weapons, the ability to hide, and better knowledge of local terrain have never caused signification difficulties for a better armed and classically trained mechanized army. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Yeah Snoke needs to be older than Palpatine and likely the 1000 year old counterpart to Maz(who thanks to deleted scenes is likely to be a jedi herself) so Plaugis kinda works in the whole cheating death regard.

[Soulflame]

The problem with Ewoks is that you have this multi solar system spanning empire supplying "An entire legion of my best troops" (per Palpatine himself!) Said legion of best troops is easily dismantled by a one tribe of goddamn primitives using rocks.  In minutes.  My eyes cannot roll hard enough every time I see the bolas strangling men in armor.  Or AT-ATs destroyed by fucking trees.  Or vines strung across the path.

Yes, indigenous populations using improvised weapons, the ability to hide, and better knowledge of local terrain have never caused signification difficulties for a better armed and classically trained mechanized army. 

They do cause a great deal of trouble for a more advanced army, but almost never in a straight up firefight.  That tilts the field heavily towards the more advanced army.

The trouble they do cause is in sabotage, or sneak attacks.  Not an assault in broad daylight like the Ewoks manage.  That should have ended in a straight up one sided fight that the imperials won with few if any casualties.

[Evildrider]

The problem with Ewoks is that you have this multi solar system spanning empire supplying "An entire legion of my best troops" (per Palpatine himself!) Said legion of best troops is easily dismantled by a one tribe of goddamn primitives using rocks.  In minutes.  My eyes cannot roll hard enough every time I see the bolas strangling men in armor.  Or AT-ATs destroyed by fucking trees.  Or vines strung across the path.

If this is the best the empire has to offer, how do they manage to hold anything?  Clearly a horde of preschoolers armed with popsicle sticks would be capable of routing your average garrison.  And it really takes the shine off of the rest movie.

They proved this possible on Mythbusters!   

[Soulflame]

In my defense, I do point that out a post or three down.  It also took them quite some time to build the structure that would hold the trees, and needed heavy equipment to pull the trees far back enough to have the energy needed to smash the armored van.

Also, I suspect that the AT-*T has slightly better armor than an armored van.  We did see Rey plow the Millenium Falcon into the ground a couple of times without smashing it into pieces, and that's a civilian craft.

[Ghambit]

Yeah Snoke needs to be older than Palpatine and likely the 1000 year old counterpart to Maz(who thanks to deleted scenes is likely to be a jedi herself) so Plaugis kinda works in the whole cheating death regard.

In the lore she's said to be a force user, but not a Jedi.  She never openly admitted this until after the emperor's death.  And supposedly there is a bust of a Muun jedi master in her castle (I didn't spot it).  She's small though, so can't be a Muun like Plageuis.

Most of the webs is pretty convinced he's Plageuis, which to me would make him a better/stronger character.  Also recall, Lucas is/was pretty bitchmode about Disney essentially re-tooling his work rather than coming up with an original plotline.  I'd expect this to continue with the franchise; that's what disney dropped $4B to do.  They didn't drop all that money to come up with original stories.

[eldaec]

I give no fucks if he is Dsrth Plagues. He is a clean slate either way. If it happens all it means is a throw away line that he trained the emperor.

But Kylo Ren as a double agent really doesn't work. It invalidates this whole film, makes Han's death ridiculous and him being complicit in the destruction of the whatever system is really hard to square.

[angry.bob]

Or AT-ATs destroyed by fucking trees.

Trees are heavy, strong, and dense as fuck. Trees falling over or otherwise fuck up logging equipment, including bulldozers and backhoes. That scene looked stupid because of how they handled the AT-ST being destroyed, not because it was destroyed by two giant logs slamming into it. For all anyone knows they have that trap set up all the time to kill big game by luring it through there.

 I'm not even going to go into the vines around the legs. wrap a bunch of yarn around your ankles and try to walk. Let us know how it goes for you.

Also, I suspect that the AT-*T has slightly better armor than an armored van.  We did see Rey plow the Millenium Falcon into the ground a couple of times without smashing it into pieces, and that's a civilian craft.

I doubt that the AT-ST has better armor than an armored van. If it's that big of an issue I'm sure that there is a resource in some past RPG or other nerd reference material that lists it's armor specs.

Also, the Millenium Falcon is a civilian craft. A civilian craft that has deflector shields. Ones that would be used to absorb impacts from shit in space while it was flying. UNless she drove it straight into the ground, the forces involved would be trivial in comparison.

Honestly, it must be painful for you to be yourself sometimes.

[Soulflame]

What annoys me about that whole sequence is multiple things.
1.  That they set up the tree smash AT-*T in almost no time at all.  They're tiny little goddamn bears, that they managed to cut down two very large trees, get them to the right spot, and manage to suspend them/drag them up to the correct height to smash the cabin of the vehicle is beyond belief.
2.  I have noted, twice now, that Myth Busters proved that one was at least plausible.  It also required days of setup, and the use of heavy equipment.  Neither of which the Ewoks had.
3.  I find it very difficult to believe that the empire had never encountered tactics like the use of lines/vines/ropes to trip their vehicles, and did not have countermeasures for them.  Plus the idea that tiny bears could hold a vine that was able to trip an AT-*T is, again, not terribly plausible.
4.  Ditto for the logs under the AT_*T.  Difficult to believe that they could not manage to stabilize through that, when they are already able to stabilize the thing to stand up in the first place.

As for being me, it's the best.  At least I'm not a rage filled fuckstick who shits on everything.

Not sure if you've seen the movie, but she literally bounced it off of the ground twice, with no apparent damage.  I don't believe it had shields that were on at that point.  That is a lot of energy being absorbed by the hull alone.

Plus, why wouldn't the military vehicle have better armor and better shields.

[Evildrider]

I dunno.. if your entire population builds and lives in trees far above ground, they would know how to do shit like that pretty quick.

[Shannow]

Holy fuck. Shuuutup

[Jade Falcon]

With how close the trees are in the endor forest I'd tie the trees along the path at the height required then cut the bottoms out.Seems easier then hoisting them up there.

[Ghambit]

Holy fuck. Shuuutup

I keep trying to change the subject, but it's apparently not working.

[Samprimary]

Using the war realism of the battletech system, would the mechwarrior clans defeat the rebel alliance?

[Evildrider]

Does the Rebellion have an Ewok special forces platoon?  If so, I give it to the Rebels.

[Shannow]

Using the war realism of the battletech system, would the mechwarrior clans defeat the rebel alliance?

The empire should've used tanks.


Ep 7 sets more records, I wonder if JJ Abrams has shut himself in a room and just yelled 'I FUCKING NAILLLLED IT BABY'.

[Evildrider]

Using the war realism of the battletech system, would the mechwarrior clans defeat the rebel alliance?

The empire should've used tanks.


Ep 7 sets more records, I wonder if JJ Abrams has shut himself in a room and just yelled 'I FUCKING NAILLLLED IT BABY'.

Supposedly he regrets passing on doing Episode 8.

[Lakov_Sanite]

He's exec prodcer for ep8 if he really wanted to he could direct it but he's not insane, he knows passing it to another director is better than running his personal vision into the ground.

[calapine]

He's exec prodcer for ep8 if he really wanted to he could direct it but he's not insane, he knows passing it to another director is better than running his personal vision into the ground.

Do we know who is going to direct Episode 8?

[Merusk]

Yes, Rian Johnson. The guy who directed Looper and the Ozymandious episode of Breaking Bad. If you don't know that episode he also directed Fly, the one where a fly was loose in the lab. Other than that he's pretty light in direction credits.

[Soulflame]

I admit, I was bemused when I saw who they turned over writing/directing the next episode to.  I had to look him up on IMDB, at which point I wondered if Looper was actually that good.

He seems really light on experience, particularly to helm the next episode of a multi-billion dollar franchise.

[angry.bob]

Plus, why wouldn't the military vehicle have better armor and better shields.

The Empire doesn't appear to put much into survivability of it's military personnel, especial the low and middle ranking ones. To all appearances anything they make except capital ship level shields seems to function more as a placebo for the person relying on it than as a source of actual protection. Think Soviet Army, but without all of Stalin's concern for the wellbeing for his troops.

Also, while JJ is happy to take credit for the success of this movie, it literally had nothing to do with him. This is a movie that could have been directed by literally anything on the planet and it would have been huge. A fucking magic 8-ball could have made the directorial decisions and it would have made the same amount.

[Teleku]

Yes, Rian Johnson. The guy who directed Looper and the Ozymandious episode of Breaking Bad. If you don't know that episode he also directed Fly, the one where a fly was loose in the lab. Other than that he's pretty light in direction credits.

Since Looper is one of my favorite movies, and most favorite Sci-fi movie, to come out in the last decade, I'm willing to put full trust in him.   

[eldaec]

Looper, and those 3 Breaking Bad episodes are probably stronger directing credits than, for instance, a guy who only had the last two Star Trek movies, Super 8, and Mission Impossible 3.

[Riggswolfe]

Plus, why wouldn't the military vehicle have better armor and better shields.

The Empire doesn't appear to put much into survivability of it's military personnel, especial the low and middle ranking ones. To all appearances anything they make except capital ship level shields seems to function more as a placebo for the person relying on it than as a source of actual protection. Think Soviet Army, but without all of Stalin's concern for the wellbeing for his troops.

Also, while JJ is happy to take credit for the success of this movie, it literally had nothing to do with him. This is a movie that could have been directed by literally anything on the planet and it would have been huge. A fucking magic 8-ball could have made the directorial decisions and it would have made the same amount.

You love being wrong. After the prequels this movie had a lot to prove. The wrong director would've killed Star Wars dead as the prequels very nearly did.

[Merusk]

The Star Wars subreddit has people defending the prequels and ranking TFA below them because "they're denser and have more memorable scenes."

Time to kill all the 20-somethings. 

[Ghambit]

The Star Wars subreddit has people defending the prequels and ranking TFA below them because "they're denser and have more memorable scenes."

Time to kill all the 20-somethings. 

Tbh I've heard this same argument from my brother, who is a Gen-Xer.  Some of his points are valid, as he prefers a more "epic" presentation rather than Abrams' quick-hit filmography.  The prequels just felt a lot bigger with a lot more coverage of the IP (regardless of quality), and for some this is a deciding factor.  Let's be real, Abrams has never been good at scale and pacing with any of his projects.  It's just his style to make large movies seem small and twisty, which works at times for certain IP but not necessarily something like SW.