Star Wars : Into Spoilers - The Spoiler awakens.

[Evildrider]

As for the grey Jedi stuff, doubtful. You can accept your inner evil without giving in to it or even needing to follow it. It's also too nuanced for a film series that uses such a heavy-handed metaphor as "the sun goes out as he stabs his father" to illustrate the death of good in a character.

I think for the movies they will stick with the Light and Dark with no middle.  Although I guess you could call Ahsoka a Grey Jedi, but she's the "walked away from the Jedi Council" kind. 

Also I think the grey area is better filled by the roguish types like Han and Lando.

[Riggswolfe]

I admit I wouldn't be so harsh on TFA's faults if it hadn't been for all of my friends and dozens of posters on message board overhyping the movie and declaring it to be better than RotJ or Star Wars.  Just like the characters and their achievements, the movie didn't earn that.

It doesn't have Ewoks. That alone makes it better than RoTJ. Really, the only good bit in RoTJ is the resolution of the storyline with Luke and Vader. (And Leah's slave bikini of course.)

[BobtheSomething]

I admit I wouldn't be so harsh on TFA's faults if it hadn't been for all of my friends and dozens of posters on message board overhyping the movie and declaring it to be better than RotJ or Star Wars.  Just like the characters and their achievements, the movie didn't earn that.

It doesn't have Ewoks. That alone makes it better than RoTJ. Really, the only good bit in RoTJ is the resolution of the storyline with Luke and Vader. (And Leah's slave bikini of course.)

Really?  I always thought turning Han Solo into a sarcastic schlub was the worst part of RotJ.  The lighthearted handling of Slave Leia and the robot torture scenes both bother me more than the Ewoks, too, at least since I've grown up.  I guess I see the Ewoks as annoying, but the movie almost makes up for them when they die in droves.  The Luke and Vader scenes, as well as the space battle, I find to be satisfying and well constructed.  They make the film for me.  In essence, the worst parts in RotJ may be as bad as the worst parts in TFA, but the best parts in RotJ are better than the best parts in TFA.  Plus RotJ completes the cycle from the other two films, lending it emotional weight it wouldn't have earned on its own.


Also, the direction is much better even if the acting is much worse.  Overall, that makes RotJ at least feel like a better film.

[Surlyboi]

Just because...

http://youtu.be/lQDvsf5lAp0

[Lakov_Sanite]

Massive spoilers but these deleted scenes give a much better idea of the world they built.

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awkens-deleted-scenes/2/

Personally I'd love a 3hr cut of this.

[Evildrider]

Unfortunately Abrams said there aren't going to be any other cuts.  That doesn't mean Disney won't do something, but who knows.  Also he said the DVD will probably have like 15-20 minutes deleted scenes.

[Azazel]

I admit I wouldn't be so harsh on TFA's faults if it hadn't been for all of my friends and dozens of posters on message board overhyping the movie and declaring it to be better than RotJ or Star Wars.  Just like the characters and their achievements, the movie didn't earn that.

Watch RotJ again. Without the rose-coloured glasses. I watched the (unedited) OT from the shit-quality DVD limited release the other day, and despite a bunch of cool bits, RotJ is really not a strong film. Hell, TPM had some cool bits (ok, the lightsaber fight) but is still a shit movie. RotJ's bar isn't that high...

[Azazel]

As for the grey Jedi stuff, doubtful. You can accept your inner evil without giving in to it or even needing to follow it. It's also too nuanced for a film series that uses such a heavy-handed metaphor as "the sun goes out as he stabs his father" to illustrate the death of good in a character.

Despite having known about Ford's wishes and that it was likely he was going to croak in this, I kind of took this scene differently - that Ren was still conflicted, but the sun going down (and it's implications) finally gave him the resolve to kill Han.

[eldaec]

Despite going in with the assumption that Han must die, and despite all the in-film foreshadowing, Kylo's line about how "I know what I have to do but don't know if I'm strong enough" fooled me enough to take it the way Han did in the moment. I felt slightly silly a few seconds later, but in a good way.

He was certainly meant to be conflicted, the thing I thought was neat was the way throughout the film he talks about the light side tempting him from the dark, not the other way around. Citizen Kane it is not, and like a lot of stuff there isn't much room to explore it as an idea, but it was a nice touch and just about justified Darth Emo.

[eldaec]

Also RotJ is not great. The Jabba section is about 20 minutes too long, does nothing except unwind an Empire plot point and feels like a completely separate film, Endor is bad,  but the space battle is so very cool, and the Luke thing is pretty good.

[Merusk]

The problem with critiquing Jedi is you're fighting not only 33 years of nostalgia but the memories of a lot of kids who saw it pre-teen and only catch bits here and there. I used to watch them every year on Spike and Jedi was the one I felt I could turn off. It has a lot of cool, memorable moments but wasn't a good film as a whole.

If I was able to divest myself of the baggage of the prequels sucking I might even put it below ROTS as far as a narrative goes. Too much bullshit in Jedi you hand-wave away because "It has to happen this way to get characters where they need to go."

Hell for "just go with it" Jabba scenes alone make so little sense that it would get destroyed by the same people bitching today. WTF Lando. Wtf 3P0 saying nobody saw Chewbacca again then showing up with Leia. WTF Luke wandering in assuming he'll be able to get his saber from R2. WTF Luke's plot armor keeping him from just getting splattered by Jabba's 300+ goons with blasters in the palace. WTF conveniently dropping Luke first. Wow, good thing Boba Fett was so incompetent he didn't just shoot Han and Chewie in the face after Luke jumped and instead focused on the Jedi. Woah, good thing that little 5'1" 110# woman was totally ignored and Jabba was a big bag of air, because the water weight of his arm alone would have been enough to fling her about like a fucking sock puppet, never mind actually using his bodyweight. Good thing there was a giant ass magnet to salvage the sand-sunk droids after they jumped-ship. (And hell, double-plus good magnetism in the Star Wars universe does nothing at all adverse to electronics.)

 

[jgsugden]

Ranting about the failures of the Jabba scenes... when there were Ewoks?

[Malakili]

Yeah, TFA is better than Jedi in my opinion. Jedi has some very good scenes, the Luke, Emperor, Vader stuff is some of the best stuff in the series, and the space battle at the end is cool.  Jabba's Palace is an good little sequence, but not great in a movie about the redemption of Darth Vader and the destruction of the Emperor. Most of the Endor stuff is terrible and that takes up a really large chunk of the film.

[Merusk]

Ranting about the failures of the Jabba scenes... when there were Ewoks?

Yes, because that's the point. There were so many problems in one of the better segments, yet it's held up as some great classic by groups tearing-down TFA now. It's blinding nostalgia.

[jgsugden]

I guess I hear it differently more often - that 6 is on par with 3, and considered a weakness in many ways.

Georgie's thoughts on Star Wars in a Charlie Rose interview are kind of interesting and address why 6 and 4 had such cimilar elements....

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/74065

[Shannow]

6 on par with 3? Who are these people? Do they have substance abuse issues? I would be cautious around them.

[Pennilenko]

I guess I hear it differently more often - that 6 is on par with 3, and considered a weakness in many ways.

Georgie's thoughts on Star Wars in a Charlie Rose interview are kind of interesting and address why 6 and 4 had such cimilar elements....

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/74065

Lucas comes across as butthurt.

[Evildrider]

Well, his ideas for the movie weren't worth a billion dollars.   

[jgsugden]

Of course he is petty and angry.  Star Wars is his legacy, and he was effecitvely told, "We want to buy it from you because you are going to screw it up and we can make a film that people want to see..." And those people were right.

As for 3 versus 6: 6 gets a pass due to legacy, but there are as many story, action and acting problems in 6 as in 3.  I give 3 an edge because 6 was such a disappointment after 5.

[Soulflame]

Of course he is petty and angry.  Star Wars is his legacy, and he was effecitvely told, "We want to buy it from you because you are going to screw it up and we can make a film that people want to see..." And those people were right.

As for 3 versus 6: 6 gets a pass due to legacy, but there are as many story, action and acting problems in 6 as in 3.  I give 3 an edge because 6 was such a disappointment after 5.

[HaemishM]

3 or RotS was an absolute fucking travesty of cinema. It was the absolute fucking WORST of all the Star Wars movies, and yes I put it below AotC because FUCKKKKKKKKKKK. The fact that Ani-douche turns to the dark side with almost no prompting ONSCREEN is just horrific writing and film making. It has no dramatic impact because the fucking acting is horrific, the dialogue is worse and there's nothing to foreshadow it other than creepy sideways eye glares from Darth Raisin. The slaughter of the Jedi including the children is handled with an '80's montage that might as well have "YOU GOT THE POWER!" as its score. And the fucking high ground... oh the fucking high ground. There is absolutely zero redeeming qualities in RotS including Christopher Lee having yet another punk ass death in a role that he shouldn't have wiped his ass with. Granted, it didn't have an Asthmatic Droid General with 50 whirling light saber dildos like Clones but holy fuck.

None of the prequels are even remotely on the same level as TFA, or as RotJ. TFA is better than RotJ on so many levels despite its obvious flaws. I actually liked the Jabba scenes in Jedi, and felt they were necessary as a "get the band back together" scene after the events of ESB. It all falls apart when the Ewoks show up as the amount of "it happened this way because reasons" overshadows all the good parts. But it's still miles better than any of the prequels, especially 3.

Super Fuck Revenge of the Sith.

[Sir T]

When people start talking down any of the OT to the level of any of the Prequels in order elevate the new film they now worship, we are officially in "The lady dost protest too much, meethinks." territory. Holy fuck.

[Rendakor]

3 or RotS was an absolute fucking travesty of cinema. It was the absolute fucking WORST of all the Star Wars movies, and yes I put it below AotC because FUCKKKKKKKKKKK. The fact that Ani-douche turns to the dark side with almost no prompting ONSCREEN is just horrific writing and film making. It has no dramatic impact because the fucking acting is horrific, the dialogue is worse and there's nothing to foreshadow it other than creepy sideways eye glares from Darth Raisin. The slaughter of the Jedi including the children is handled with an '80's montage that might as well have "YOU GOT THE POWER!" as its score. And the fucking high ground... oh the fucking high ground. There is absolutely zero redeeming qualities in RotS including Christopher Lee having yet another punk ass death in a role that he shouldn't have wiped his ass with. Granted, it didn't have an Asthmatic Droid General with 50 whirling light saber dildos like Clones but holy fuck.

None of the prequels are even remotely on the same level as TFA, or as RotJ. TFA is better than RotJ on so many levels despite its obvious flaws. I actually liked the Jabba scenes in Jedi, and felt they were necessary as a "get the band back together" scene after the events of ESB. It all falls apart when the Ewoks show up as the amount of "it happened this way because reasons" overshadows all the good parts. But it's still miles better than any of the prequels, especially 3.

Super Fuck Revenge of the Sith.

Agree completely. The first prequel was probably the least offensive; kid Anakin wasn't as wooden and awful as Hayden, plus Darth Maul and Liam Neeson (despite the midichlorians stuff ).

[Malakili]

I hate to tell you, Haemish, but the asthmatic droid was Revenge of the Sith also.

[Riggswolfe]

I actually like 3 the best of all the prequels even though it has cringe moments. I find 2 unwatchable and boring. 1 has Darth Maul and the Pod Race. Note: This doesn't mean 3 is a good movie, I just find it the most watchable of the prequels.

[Threash]

I distinctly remember when 3 came out most people thought it was the best of the prequels.

[eldaec]

I think I'm going with a new year resolution to never speak of the prequels again.

RotJ wasn't great. It doesn't need to be better or worse than other hypothetical bad films for this to be the case.

[jgsugden]

The failures of 3 are not at issue. The failures of 6 are what put the worst of the originals on part with the best of the prequels. They have different flaws, but man are they both disappointments,

[Shannow]

Fuck people who bitch about 6. Seriously fuck you. Oh so it had Ewoks. Fucking shut the fuck up. God you people would take a shit on your own birthday cake if you could. It was a perfectly fine movie, with good action and a satisfying ending.

Fucking
Shut
Up.

[Malakili]

Fuck people who bitch about 6. Seriously fuck you. Oh so it had Ewoks. Fucking shut the fuck up. God you people would take a shit on your own birthday cake if you could. It was a perfectly fine movie, with good action and a satisfying ending.

Fucking
Shut
Up.

 

[Evildrider]

Fuck people who bitch about 6. Seriously fuck you. Oh so it had Ewoks. Fucking shut the fuck up. God you people would take a shit on your own birthday cake if you could. It was a perfectly fine movie, with good action and a satisfying ending.

Fucking
Shut
Up.

Yub nub!

[Ghambit]

Saw it again in the 2D 70mm theatre as I promised myself I would.  It was pretty glorious.  WAY better than the 3D Imax version with both sight and sound (holy fuck; Luke's sabre and the Falcon).  Granted, there were only 18 theatres doing it this way.  Also, there were only a couple of true IMAX scenes (I remember one from Jakku when they were running from the air raid), but when they popped... they popped huge and had me wishing he'd done the whole thing that way.

So, after seeing it again.  I will say that this movie, though the 3rd best of the franchise, had the best imagery of any of the SW films.  The issue with pacing, however, really effs this up... because you have these amazing scenes in the star wars verse, and Abrams just has to be Abrams (and moves too quickly) instead of maybe channeling some Coppola from time to time.  The only instance where he fought his tendencies was the last one with Luke, which was the weakest framing of them all anyways.  I understand time was of the essence, but still.

Also, yes, that is indeed Luke in the vision now that I've seen his hand again.  Can't be Windu.  There a leak that says Finn is a Calrissian, but it's from an unsanctioned Lucasarts product.  Studying the 2nd film a bit more, I definitely believe there are a lot more layers to this onion than a simple ep.4 redux; we're being set up for some pretty epic twists.

[Teleku]

I will say growing up that the fight was over weather RotJ or ESB was best, with most people siding with RoTJ.  I did at first, but as I grew older, leaned towards empire just because of the dialog.  Nobody ever brought up the first movie in these conversations.  So I've always found it odd when F13 broke out with RotJ hate (well, not hate, just that it wasn't great).  I didn't think that view even existed till F13.   

[eldaec]

I really try to restrict the number of posts I make about how bad 3D is, but just to follow up Ghanbits point about the 70mm edition, it really demonstrates how much of a plague on mankind 3d is, when Star Wars of all things can't justify shooting entirely in imax because less than a couple of dozen screens in the world will show the damn film in correct format; preferring to show retrofitted 3d of all things because for some reason people will pay 20% extra for a shittier image.

But yes, the 15/70mm is beautiful.

[Tannhauser]

Fuck people who bitch about 6. Seriously fuck you. Oh so it had Ewoks. Fucking shut the fuck up. God you people would take a shit on your own birthday cake if you could. It was a perfectly fine movie, with good action and a satisfying ending.

Fucking
Shut
Up.

Thank you.  So it had stupid Ewoks doing stupid shit; we also had Jabba's scenes, the big space battle, Han and Leia on the planet and of course Luke vs. Vader.  Luke not only defeats Vader but doesn't succumb to the dark side and thus saves his father and the galaxy.  Great ending to a great trilogy.

TFA is a great movie and maybe it's nostalgia also, but RotJ edges it out.