Star Wars : Into Spoilers - The Spoiler awakens.

[Surlyboi]

I take Finn's turn a little easier because, like he said, he knows what the First Order does. He knows it's either him or that stormtrooper. Especially considering he's pretty much a marked traitor by the time they show up.

As for the people twisting themselves in knots about Rey being a "strong female character", there are just as many twisting themselves in knots calling her too perfect while letting male characters with the exact same qualities slide.

[Fabricated]

I don't think there's any male characters that qualify as a Gary Stu in this movie.

Poe almost gets there because he's closer to a stereotypical action hero than even Finn but he just doesn't get enough face time. He is just super-competent however; knows a Tie Fighter up and down (yet somehow can't disengage a tether...), him and Finn fuck up part of a Star Destroyer with said SINGLE Tie Fighter, and he gets his own trench run after playing "Super Badass Guy who isn't afraid of no torture"- only giving up the goods when Darth Cosplay rips the location from his mind.

[Surlyboi]

Not in this movie, no. But as I said earlier, Anakin was a total Gary Stu.

[Fabricated]

Not in this movie, no. But as I said earlier, Anakin was a total Gary Stu.

And he was terrible.

I like Rey a lot more than him because while Rey being a Sue was really eyerolling later in the movie, her actor and lines were generally pretty damn good and her chemistry with Finn was great.

Edit: lmaoooo I was checking out the apparent debate over Rey's sueness and I guess there are people who think Finn and Poe are in a romance. What do you call the non-Japanese manga/anime equivalent of Fujoshi?

[jgsugden]

I don't think there's any male characters that qualify as a Gary Stu in this movie.

Poe almost gets there because he's closer to a stereotypical action hero than even Finn but he just doesn't get enough face time. He is just super-competent however; knows a Tie Fighter up and down (yet somehow can't disengage a tether...), him and Finn fuck up part of a Star Destroyer with said SINGLE Tie Fighter, and he gets his own trench run after playing "Super Badass Guy who isn't afraid of no torture"- only giving up the goods when Darth Cosplay rips the location from his mind.

Poe was supposed to die in the first twenty minutes.  They changes his destiny right around the time of casting.  His lack of depth is a product of not being intended to survive as long as he did and not having a story purpose later in the film.  However, he is supposed to have a more substantial role in the next film.

[Fabricated]

I hope he does, Poe was a really fun character at the beginning of the movie. Him, Finn, AND Rey together would be awesome.

[Surlyboi]

"So, how's this supposed to work? Do you talk first? Do I?"

That line sold me right away.

[Shannow]

"So, how's this supposed to work? Do you talk first? Do I?"

That line sold me right away.

Yeah that made me double take , 'oh they are going to be funny as well? awesome!'

I would be down with a Finn, Rey and Poe travelling roadshow. 

[pxib]

Anakin was a total Gary Stu.

Little Anakin was pure shit, but so was the whole Phantom Menace. Rey's bizarre force competence is an embarrassing little skid mark on an otherwise well put-together character in a pretty darn competent popcorn movie.

Pointing out that Anakin is a Gary Stu is silly because that's the least of those movies' problems. The patient is dead. Rey's brush with Sueism in the third act is just an annoying papercut. A single, outstanding flaw (if you will) that serves to drive meaningful conflict on this message board. Like the sort of thing Rey could have used to drive meaningful conflict in her own fucking character arc.

[jakonovski]

There are three short stories for her, Finn and Poe about what they were doing just before the movie starts.

What the fuck, did they consult the Destiny devs on storytelling or something?

[MediumHigh]

He's a perfect shot despite never used a gun
He can out dog fight a veteran of the clone wars despite never flown a fighter before
He has uncanny aim with the falcons turrets
He can actually a hit darth vadar after a week of walking around with a green frog
He is the third most powerful jedi after a months of training
He beats darth vadar by over powering him. He beats a man with super human mechanical limbs and force augmentation with brute force....

I hate to do this because I basically agree with you, but again: screenwriting.

Perfect shot and turret aim: He used to bullseye womp rats in his T-16. Like I say, I got no problem with Rey's piloting and technical expertise. When we see her flying the Falcon she's crashing into stuff left and right and making crazy moves because she's overwhelmed and unfamiliar. It works better than Luke's ability to shoot.

Dog-fighting: Luke isn't dog-fighting. His X-wing is one of the bombers in their formation. The other Red fighters are supposed to defend him while he focuses making the impossible shot into the exhaust port. He gets that job because of the excellent aim he's displayed in the movie up to that point

Darth Vader: Here's their fight from E5. Vader toys with him and casually wipes the floor with him... then offers to train him because that's what he wanted all along. Then in that final fight Luke wins because Vader doesn't want to kill him. Which is pretty much the entire point of both Luke and Vader's arcs in E6.

...and by the time he's the third most powerful Jedi, Yoda is dead. So he's the third out of three.

And for all the reasons you listed, that is why people generally didn't walk out of the ending of 4,5,6 with the "that's bullshit". By episode 6 when sidious wants to replace Vader for Luke no one questions that Luke is powerful enough to be worthy of the top slot next to the emperor. Because by movie logic he earned it, even though logically he really should have been ragged dolled.

But the movie flaw is ultimately being good not great. Something worth the tickets but not the popcorn. Ultimately it has me a little worried about how good episode 8 will be.

[jgsugden]

"So, how's this supposed to work? Do you talk first? Do I?"

That line sold me right away.

Me too.  I was distracted waiting for Poe to resurface after he went missing.  5 more minutes before he disappeared and I think he'd have stolen the show.

[Surlyboi]

But the movie flaw is ultimately being good not great. Something worth the tickets but not the popcorn. Ultimately it has me a little worried about how good episode 8 will be.

Ok, now you're just concern trolling.

[jakonovski]

Star Wars Justice Warriors?

[HaemishM]

She's not really flawed in any significant manner.

You are wrong. If you watch the final fight with Ren carefully, you can see her biggest flaw is going to be her anger. It's part of the reason she beats him - not so much her balls out connection to the Force (although I again think that's part of it) - but also because she gets just sick angry. And as a result is channeling more of the Dark Side than Ren. It's another callback to the Empire Strikes Back fight and the Return of the Jedi one in which Luke loses his shit and starts whaling on Vader. The difference is that in Return of the Jedi, Luke is more attuned to the force than in Empire and so beats Vader. Rey's anger is probably going to be one of her flaws. Another one is that she starts out somewhat selfish - "I have to return home rather than fight for good." She doesn't choose to fight the First Order, she gets captured.

[MahrinSkel]

Rey is a Mary Sue by the common definition: A hyper-competent character that doesn't earn their place at the center of the story, but takes it out of sheer awesomeness (if she were a guy I'd call him a Gary Stu, it's not about gender). She's a well-done Sue, in terms of how it was acted and directed, and it may actually be very important later that she was so effortlessly awesome. Note that the title of the movie is "The Force Awakens". Maybe it's not just a Force user awakening to the Force, but that the Force *itself* has manifested an avatar.

And yeah, it's by no means certain that she's going to be the triumphant crusader for good. I wasn't kidding about imagining the Emperor cackling when she beats down Kylo Ren. I think Abrams is trying to do what Lucas failed at with Anakin: Make us actually like her, so that when she does her Face-Heel turn, it really stings.

--Dave

[Samprimary]

Yeah, rey is dangerous. She's a problem. I think Luke knows that, and knows exactly who she is, and was probably involved in making sure that she was compelled to self-exile.

And now she's there, with that compulsion broken, and he is basically thinking "if rey is here, and she has that lightsaber, oh I'm in trouble this is trouble what do I even do"

[HaemishM]

Whoever linked that ESB fight scene, thank you. I'd forgotten just how goddamn good that scene was filmed. The slow menace of Vader unsheathing his light saber, the differences in fight styles that so totally fit the characters' personalities, the ominous lighting - it's just genius. Sure, the effects are a little dated because '80's but still, it's amazing. Also, I was wrong - there were a few times where Luke got some good shots in but for the most part, he got his ass kicked.

[jakonovski]

I can't even hope for a plot as daring as evil Rey. This is Disney Star Wars and post-Into Darkness Abrams. It's going to be predictable formula all the way.

[pxib]

You are wrong. If you watch the final fight with Ren carefully, you can see her biggest flaw is going to be her anger. [...] Another one is that she starts out somewhat selfish - "I have to return home rather than fight for good."

Where do we see that anger other than in the final fight? That's not a flaw, that's stepping up because somebody is hurting your friend.

When is she selfish? At the beginning when Finn is trying to drag her into somebody else's fight? Finn is the selfish one!  Rey's already refused to sell BB-8 for almost a YEAR'S worth of portions. The point in the movie where she wants to return home she's not refusing the fight for good, she's refusing a job as mechanic sidekick from Han Solo... who does occasionally fight for good but is mostly a conniving smuggler.

Sure, she is favoring loyalty to old dreams over faith in new ones. That's not a flaw, that's the Refusal of the Call part of the monomyth... and it's the whole of her character arc in this film.

Also it turns out these new dreams are your old dreams, kiddo. Congrats, you're the protagonist.

[jgsugden]

... If you watch the final fight with Ren carefully, you can see her biggest flaw is going to be her anger. It's part of the reason she beats him - not so much her balls out connection to the Force (although I again think that's part of it) - but also because she gets just sick angry. And as a result is channeling more of the Dark Side than Ren. It's another callback to the Empire Strikes Back fight and the Return of the Jedi one in which Luke loses his shit and starts whaling on Vader. The difference is that in Return of the Jedi, Luke is more attuned to the force than in Empire and so beats Vader. Rey's anger is probably going to be one of her flaws. Another one is that she starts out somewhat selfish - "I have to return home rather than fight for good." She doesn't choose to fight the First Order, she gets captured.

100%.

My fear is that this trilogy will be the fight for her soul and they'll resurrect Vader to fight it.  Too many Vader worship moments.  They brought back all the other jedi voices but his... There are the stories about Christiansen being trained for a role in episode 8...

[MediumHigh]

But the movie flaw is ultimately being good not great. Something worth the tickets but not the popcorn. Ultimately it has me a little worried about how good episode 8 will be.

Ok, now you're just concern trolling.

Genuine criticize of the movie, points that have been made by other people multiple times, is trolling? Cause I'm not sipping on the nostalgia koolaid?

[01101010]

There are the stories about Christiansen being trained for a role in episode 8...

 

[jgsugden]

...
Genuine criticize of the movie, points that have been made by other people multiple times, is trolling? Cause I'm not sipping on the nostalgia koolaid?

Putting aside loaded termslike trolling: Rank the following films on your expectation of their quality based upon the evidence at hand: Gods of Egypt, Star Wars 8, X-Men Apocalypse, Star Trek Beyond, Justice League, World of Warcraft, Assassin's Creed.  I'm not sure about the exact order, but I have a pretty good idea which of those will be the one you expect to be best...

[jgsugden]

There are the stories about Christiansen being trained for a role in episode 8...

http://www.inquisitr.com/2452882/star-wars-rumor-says-hayden-christensen-to-return-to-the-star-wars-universe-for-episode-8/If true, they can't hide it for long. 

[Samprimary]

http://io9.gizmodo.com/please-stop-spreading-this-nonsense-that-rey-from-star-1749134275

[Surlyboi]

But the movie flaw is ultimately being good not great. Something worth the tickets but not the popcorn. Ultimately it has me a little worried about how good episode 8 will be.

Ok, now you're just concern trolling.

Genuine criticize of the movie, points that have been made by other people multiple times, is trolling? Cause I'm not sipping on the nostalgia koolaid?

No. You're concern trolling because you went from your opening salvo of, "this movie sucked" to "I liked it but I have concerns about the next one due to some things I didn't like in this one."

[MahrinSkel]

http://io9.gizmodo.com/please-stop-spreading-this-nonsense-that-rey-from-star-1749134275

Yeah, we already saw it. It's nonsense: "She isn't a Mary Sue because here are some totally implausible justifications for why she's so damned awesome at everything!" It's exactly as plausible as Anakin being the Universe's Greatest Mechanic/Pilot. But where Anakin was completely unlikable even as a child, and insufferably smug later, we actually like Rey, so we want to find excuses about how it's totally reasonable that she knows more about the Millennium Falcon than Han and Chewie put together, and she can overpower Ren in the Force just by being around him using it, *once*, and invent the Mind Trick from scratch without ever seeing it done.

It's not, but as a reflection of a deep connection to and natural talent with the Force, it can be explained and even add to the story, and I think Abrams and Ridley did an excellent job of setting that up. But certain quarters don't want it to be a totally arbitrary accident of birth following naturally from the series mythos, but Grrl Power in human form. She's totally a Mary Sue, but they want her to be *their* Mary Sue.

Lots of things happen in the series that wouldn't make any sense at all unless they were actually manifestations of the Force, that's the whole damned point of it. It's why they are mythic, rather than pure deus ex machina.

--Dave

[jgsugden]

A new theory thrown around: Rey and Ren are ... twins.  Luke mojos Han, Leia and everyone else to forget Rey because he wants to protect her from Ren.  The only one that he can't mojo is Ren after the massacre... so he makes Ren believe she is dead by faking her death and making him believe he hid her existence from her parents as a mercy...  A mercy he even might support.  He doesn't seem to hate Han and Leia - they're just not on his side and he is willing to sacrifice them to his cause.

Thus, when Ren encounters her, he doesn't have any inkling it could be her, but he might suspect it as the story progresses.  Those that are suggesting this say that you might be able to see an inkling of suspicion on Driver's face as he fights her, as he sees her with the Skywalker Lightsaber, etc...  

I don't give the idea much credit right now, but I will be watching the acting on the next rewatch to see if there is any chance the acting supports the idea...  I also think that the age of the actors (Driver is 9 years older than Ridley) defies this pattern.  They could be older brother / younger sister siblings instead of twins with the same story, but I still doubt it.

[MahrinSkel]

No. Not a chance. Too many places that should have been in the subtext in her interactions with Han and Leia for me to have missed them all, I'd consider it a total ass pull retcon even worse than "Luke Kissed Leia".

--Dave

[Lakov_Sanite]

This isn't a zero sum game.  Rey is not either total mary sue neo the one plot device ex machina OR grrl powah, don't need no man look at how she does it on her own.  It's just you have a character, that character has abilities which make them stronger in some ways than other characters and these abilities are not fully explained in R.A Salvatore-like detail.

Adam Driver is 9 years older than Daisy Ridley so I'm gonna think they don't go the twin route the age gap was way too noticable to me at least.   As for Rey being stronger in the force? I don't see an issue because that whole mind pushing thing seemed more like raw, untrained power than any sort of finesse.  Kylo has training, he can stop laser blasts, read minds and drag people across a room but he doesn't have the raw power of his grandfather or of Rey even untrained.

[Fabricated]

http://io9.gizmodo.com/please-stop-spreading-this-nonsense-that-rey-from-star-1749134275

That's a really bad article, thanks for linking.

[MahrinSkel]

Lakov: They want to have an argument that nobody is giving them. Rey is a fantastic feminist character, first surviving on Jakku alone, then making her own escape (Finn is just along for the ride), then subverting the Damsel trope by rescuing herself, then inverting it by rescuing Finn. But Abrams did such a great job of the subversion and inversion that everybody just accepts them, they work.

They want to have the "Furiosa is the star of Fury Road" argument all over again, but nobody is giving it to them. So, "they called Rey a Mary Sue, that's totally the same thing, right?" That's saying she only won because the director (a man) wanted her to, totally taking away her agency and warrgarrble....

No. She's an implausibly hypercompetent character (a Mary Sue/Gary Stu), and it works.

--Dave

[Draegan]

I've never heard of the term Mary sue and I've never seen it written on these or any forums. Then all of a sudden everyone is using it.

[Azazel]

I'm so looking forward to the extended edition DVD/Blu-Ray release featuring 45 minutes of extra exposition footage to keep you guys happy.

Seriously, the film was 136mins which is more than stretching the bladder capacity of the younger members of the audience and was still overstuffed with too much happening in too short(!) a time. Which was my biggest problem with it. Another 45 to extend some of those scenes, add in some of the stuff that inevitably ended up on the cutting room floor would work wonders for me, at least - and probably a lot of you guys as well. Until then, I was (mostly) happy with the film, and I can't blame anyone but Ford for the part that I didn't like. Then again, I could have happily watched three films worth of "The Adventures of Han, Chewie and the Kids", so there's that.

I'd happily buy that alongside the Super Special Restored Edition releases of the Original Trilogy where Han shoots first and bad-'90s-CGI Rontos aren't in the fucking way of every second shot on Tattooine. Now Disney is in charge, they might actually make that happen.

And shit - I'd even be open to it if the Hayden Christensen rumours turn out to be true. I'm not exactly a fan of his in general, and Anakin sucked, but I'm willing to almost all of the blame for that on Lucas' fuckawful dialogue writing and hard-on for greenscreening everything in sight. With Lucas excised from the whole thing and Disney and co in charge, along with the "back to the original feel" ethos, he could be just fine, especially if used very sparingly. McGregor is a hell of lot more of a talented actor and charismatic individual than Hayden which is the only reason that Young-Obi-Wan gets a pass from all of us. That and his badass lightsaber duels.