Star Wars : Into Spoilers - The Spoiler awakens.

[Khaldun]

I can't keep track of who it is that's oversensitive anymore. I need a scorecard or something. Because people are using "plausibility" in apparently earnest ways to state with apparent certainty what is or is not a reasonable use of a magical power in an imaginary fairy-tale galaxy, a power that has already had a long history of being wildly inconsistent in previous stories in that galaxy.

[Evildrider]

I just don't know how most people have fun going to movies on this board.  Being overcritical is hip I guess.

[Merusk]

I honestly think they're just pissed at the implication that Rey is stronger than Luke. MediumHigh stated it enough times that it appears to be part of the argument.

So what if she is? Why does Luke have to be the strongest Jedi? His virgin-birth Jesus father? The 35 years of baggage on the character? Personal preference? Only men can be 'the strongest?'

Nah, fuck all that. Doesn't matter. Fun movie was fun and was as good as the originals with a modern twist to them. If you want something heavier or more consistent, go watch nothing but independent High Sci-Fi movies and not Space Operas.

[Draegan]

Here's my theory:
Remember the vision scene we see where Rey is facing off against the "Knights of Ren" and seems to be about to be struck down and the assailant get run through by apparently Kylo's blade? Here's my few points in that.

1) It's a vision from the future. Future is based on emotion (ESB). Doesn't have to be the way things are.
2) Kylo Ren saves Rey because he's in love with her (crazy obsession + immature tantrum + loves what he can't have/beat).
3) Rey doesn't give a shit about Ren, ends up killing him. Goes Darkside. Big reveal in the second movie ala "I am your father".

Ren is a very weak character. Very weak mentally and self-esteem wise. Needs to wear a mask to intimidate with his "parlor tricks". Throws tantrums. He has power as in he has abilities no one else does but he doesn't have the aptitude to wield them like a Vador or someone else. He's a child pretending to be a grown up for the most part. He killed his father because of theorycrafting reasons. I don't see how you transition a character from throwing a tantrum in a room where you see Stromtroopers turn the other way into a badass that is a main villain.

That's the crux of the whole series. You don't have a villain. You have Snokes but he's some kind of unreal imaginary/background villain like the Emperor. There is no Vader here. You need to twist a knife into the audience and introduce someone that you're emotionally attached to that you believe will ruin your day. Do you really think Kylo is scary and oppressive? He's just some whiny young shit pretending to be a badass. That does not lend itself to a good story later on. Can you really write a story that takes the character that is essentially a brat and turn him into a dreaded figure over the arc of a three part story? We've seen him unmasked (big hint). We've seen his weakness. We've seen him act unsettled. What we need to really look for is a villain to fear. No one fears Kylo Ren who got beat by a startup "Jedi" and a ex-stormtrooper who saw one half a battle.

I know it's a long shot, but I can see Rey turning into that badass that you fear. It would be quite a turn similar to Vader's "I am your father" moment. Rey has already shown anger/passion/fear which leads to the darkside!

Anyway, I can see it happening.

[MediumHigh]

Now its "well of you dont like my dumb plot and none sense story telling just go watch something more series". Come on people said the same thing about the prequels and the transformers. And Rey being hinted effectively being stronger than luke is just more eu uncanny valley bullshit. If she is to be stronger actually train her. Actually put her through something. There is a way to make a chosen one believable without following right into Anakin Skywalker levels of just cause. At least star trek fans were pissed when Into Darkness literally pulled the same levels of nonsensical story telling.

[Venkman]

Rey is a Mary Sue by the common definition: A hyper-competent character that doesn't earn their place at the center of the story, but takes it out of sheer awesomeness (if she were a guy I'd call him a Gary Stu, it's not about gender).

Been watching for two pages and still haven't found a compelling reason to change my position:

Replace her character with a him. Feel the same? Luke Skywalker literally made no mistakes until he didn't anticipate telekinetic attacks near the end of the second movie? How's he not a Sue? Shit, almost every mistake he's made in canon came after becoming a self-proclaimed Jedi Knight.

Separate thought experiment: how much is her and how much is shit happening to her?  First BB8 discovers her. The Finn helps her evade the First Order. Then the Millenium Falcon miraculously working at all helps her. Then Han Solo finding her helps her. Then Luke's lightsaber calling to her helps her. Then Ren trying to mindrape her helps her discover he own powers. Then Finn and Han again. Then then then. Shit is happening to her and she's adapting.

Now replace "her" with "him".

[Velorath]

Replace her character with a him. Feel the same? Luke Skywalker literally made no mistakes until he didn't anticipate telekinetic attacks near the end of the second movie? How's he not a Sue? Shit, almost every mistake he's made in canon came after becoming a self-proclaimed Jedi Knight.

Just want to point out that in the first movie alone Luke gets tricked by R2 into removing the restraining bolt, and has to be saved by Obi-Wan twice (from the sand people and in the cantina). Luke doesn't really accomplish much throughout the movie until he makes the shot on the Death Star at the end. At the start of Empire, Han has to go out and rescue him, and later on he's too impatient to complete his training and leaves despite Yoda's warning that it will only make things worse. He's far from infallible throughout the trilogy.

[Abagadro]

He does have a 100 percent blaster hit ratio after Obi Wan is struck down lending some credence to the "anger makes the force flow through you more and on easy mode"  theory.

Also, Rey has been living a rather hardscrabble life on a shitty planet as a scavenger and mechanic for 10 years rather than sitting around drinking blue milk with his Aunt and Uncle.

[Surlyboi]

Don't try to defend her. She's obviously too talented.

[MediumHigh]

Rey is a Mary Sue by the common definition: A hyper-competent character that doesn't earn their place at the center of the story, but takes it out of sheer awesomeness (if she were a guy I'd call him a Gary Stu, it's not about gender).

Been watching for two pages and still haven't found a compelling reason to change my position:

Replace her character with a him. Feel the same? Luke Skywalker literally made no mistakes until he didn't anticipate telekinetic attacks near the end of the second movie? How's he not a Sue? Shit, almost every mistake he's made in canon came after becoming a self-proclaimed Jedi Knight.

Separate thought experiment: how much is her and how much is shit happening to her?  First BB8 discovers her. The Finn helps her evade the First Order. Then the Millenium Falcon miraculously working at all helps her. Then Han Solo finding her helps her. Then Luke's lightsaber calling to her helps her. Then Ren trying to mindrape her helps her discover he own powers. Then Finn and Han again. Then then then. Shit is happening to her and she's adapting.

Now replace "her" with "him".

Yeah we already had "him", his name was Star Killer or any random EU jedi with Solo or Skywalker as a last name. It was lame in the video games, its lame in the books, its lame in the movies.

[jakonovski]

The cut and pacing of the new film is also much more rushed than the old ones. Everything seemed to happen in a day and storytelling corners were cut to fit in all the action. Whereas the old one had time for calm dialogue and small scenes, making it seem more of a long journey. Which in turn makes it more acceptable for a character to change during the movie.

[Teleku]

Yeah, I think that's a good analysis.  Even if it wasn't a short 90 minute movie, it felt like one.  The flow felt way to rushed and chaotic, which is why I would have liked for it to be 20-30 minutes longer.  Would have been better if they'd just gotten the pacing down in the first place.

Mind you, again, I really enjoyed it.  Just one of those things I felt they didn't get quite right.

[MahrinSkel]

There was only one place where it was clear that something was cut: Rey disappears into the guts of the machinery, and then we don't see her again until Han starts nodding his head at her. What happened in between?

There were other places that a few seconds obviously got chopped and made it feel rushed. But that was a whole missing scene.

--Dave

[Fabricated]

Another thing that slightly bugged me with the movie that I knew was going to happen is that it's doing the Marvel-continuity nod stuff where dangling plot threads and half-finished character arcs are left with big winks and nods that are basically, "Hey, be sure to see the next movie in a year or two if you want this to make any sense!".

To really determine what was and wasn't dropped/badly written in the end as a whole you're going to have to see the whole trilogy. Empire ends on an obvious cliffhanger, but the original trilogy had the main cast have mostly realized character arcs every movie.

[Velorath]

Another thing that slightly bugged me with the movie that I knew was going to happen is that it's doing the Marvel-continuity nod stuff where dangling plot threads and half-finished character arcs are left with big winks and nods that are basically, "Hey, be sure to see the next movie in a year or two if you want this to make any sense!".

To really determine what was and wasn't dropped/badly written in the end as a whole you're going to have to see the whole trilogy. Empire ends on an obvious cliffhanger, but the original trilogy had the main cast have mostly realized character arcs every movie.

The Marvel movies hardly invented leaving dangling plot threads for the sequel. Also in the OT they couldn't really leave stuff dangling with ANH because they had no idea if it was going to be successful enough to get a sequel, and they couldn't leave things dangling with ROTJ because it was the last movie in the trilogy.

I should note that most of the times I've been in an auditorium when Force Awakens is finishing up, there's an audible groan from the typically large percentage of the crowd the stuck around through the credits when they find out there isn't a post-credits scene. If they truly were pulling a Marvel, they would have found some way to tease Rogue One or Episode VIII. I should also note that I really hate post credit scenes now and how people have been trained to stick around through 5-10 minutes of names and job titles that aren't relevant to 99.99999% of the people watching them on the off chance that they might miss 10 seconds of footage that may or may not be there. There's no incentive for flim makers to encourage people to sit through that shit, and it makes it take that much longer for a crowd to get out of an auditorium so the theater staff can start cleaning and getting the next group in. It benefits nobody and is an inconvenience to just about everyone involved.

[Khaldun]

I don't mind the "big speculative mystery that you have to wait for the next installment to resolve". That's fun.

I do mind the "just wait for the ten films that will tell you about all  the backstory". I wouldn't be too surprised for example if Max von Sydow's Lor San Tekka character is the older version of Mads Mikklesen's character in Rogue One. Dropping people in stories and acting like they're important largely just so you can pre-advertise some other bit of franchise product is not even fanservice, it's just annoying.

[Merusk]

Agreed on both counts and that's been my biggest beef with Marvel's stuff. I totally see it happening with Star Wars now and it will be obnoxious. I care about the films, maybe a TV series but little else.

[01101010]

This whole making a movie with the future movies in mind really sucks ass overall. You get plodding movies that just spin their wheels till the next one comes out. The minor shit gets resolved and is only there to push the main arc into the next film...and the next...and the next. By the end, the main arc is completed and never satisfies the build up. It is one of the reasons I gave up on going out and seeing films - why bother when it is just going to leave me hanging on for another 2 years to see some sort of resolution which will just get extended to the 3rd film. Movies are being made now with sequels already in mind so that the first movie really suffers for it. I'd rather just read about the movie and wait till the box set comes along and marathon it.

[Threash]

It only sucks when the movie can't stand on its own.

[HaemishM]

For all you guys bitching that Rey beating Kylo Ren makes her some super badass "Mary Sue" this is what JJ Abrams said about Kylo Ren:

“Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain. And not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process.”

Yes, he's a powerful Jedi but he is by no means meant to be considered on a level with Darth Vader or probably even Anakin when he was turned to the dark side. He's likely about as capable as Luke was at the end of ANH or during the fight scene in ESB. And he was seriously wounded twice and had no ability to control and focus his anger as seen many times in the movie.

[Shannow]

Lets not forget he's got some serious motivation to get worse now. He's killed his dad (hey in for a penny in for a pound, lets hunt down mommy and deal with her too!?), he's been beaten by some junk scavenger girl and now get's to take the AP Sith course with SL Snopes (am I weird for wishing that dearest Supreme Leader would actually be as big as his hologram? that'd be kinda cool). I hope ep 8 isn't completely derived from ESB (once is enough Abrams)..aka the First Order goes Hoth on the resistance and then Luke plays the part of Yoda teaching Rey.

[MournelitheCalix]

Lets not forget he's got some serious motivation to get worse now. He's killed his dad (hey in for a penny in for a pound, lets hunt down mommy and deal with her too!?), he's been beaten by some junk scavenger girl and now get's to take the AP Sith course with SL Snopes (am I weird for wishing that dearest Supreme Leader would actually be as big as his hologram? that'd be kinda cool).

I think it would be damn cool as well to have Snoke be a sith user from the past projected from a holocron or something that is in actuality an AI replica of that Sith lord.  Maybe even the Sith who "cheated" death.  Wouldn't that be the ultimate deception looking back towards the prequels and what Palpatine told Anakin.  Wouldn't that be one hell of a twist if done right?  This evil can't be beat, its immortal as long as you have the galactic equvivilent of the internet.

[Lucas]

I hope ep 8 isn't completely derived from ESB (once is enough Abrams)

But...but...

I think it would be damn cool as well to have Snoke be a sith user from the past projected from a holocron or something that is in actuality an AI replica of that Sith lord.  Maybe even the Sith who "cheated" death.  Wouldn't that be the ultimate deception looking back towards the prequels and what Palpatine told Anakin.  Wouldn't that be one hell of a twist if done right?  This evil can't be beat, its immortal as long as you have the galactic equvivilent of the internet.

That's basically the beginning of the Consular storyline in SWTOR, with the jedi holograms and Rajivari

[jgsugden]

Episode 8 doesn't need to echo Episode 5... Episode 7 already did it.  What is the most iconic moment of Episode 5 and of 7?

A father and son stand on a metal platform over a great drop.  The father pleads with the son to choose his side of the Force.  The son makes a defining choice.  The hero falls, with a lightsaber wound...

[CmdrSlack]

Why don't we take this down to Politics and argue about whether it's an allegory for the 1% who are slowly being taken down by the dying middle class? The Occupy Awakens.

It'd be more productive and make more sense than bitching about a character in a movie about space wizards.

[Phildo]

They're not wizards, they're more like telepaths.  Ugh.

[Tannhauser]

Why don't we take this down to Politics and argue about whether it's an allegory for the 1% who are slowly being taken down by the dying middle class? The Occupy Awakens.

It'd be more productive and make more sense than bitching about a character in a movie about space wizards.

Heh, you think arguing in the Politics tab is productive. Also, I'm sorry someone forced you into this thread and made you read it.

[Lucas]

Appropriate.

[jgsugden]

Novelization clears up some things that many of us suspected:

http://www.blastr.com/2015-12-23/star-wars-force-awakens-novelization-answers-some-pesky-questions-film
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/star-wars-force-awakens-novelization-highlights/

Ren did recognize Rey.  

More importantly, it seems that Kylo knew Rey. When Rey Force-pulls Luke’s lightsaber, he mutters: "It is you."

Rey is battling the Dark Side when she dives into the Force untrained.

Throughout the course of the movie, Rey learns she's Force sensitive, and she even learns how to manipulate and control it on the fly. But the novelization reveals that she doesn't just use the Force: Rey feels the power of the Dark Side.

Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick.

Ren knew Vader sacrificed himself.

R2-D2 is turned on by BB-8.  As are we all.  Such a huge ball on that thang.

[Threash]

Emo Kylo Ren

[Riggswolfe]

Lets not forget he's got some serious motivation to get worse now. He's killed his dad (hey in for a penny in for a pound, lets hunt down mommy and deal with her too!?), he's been beaten by some junk scavenger girl and now get's to take the AP Sith course with SL Snopes (am I weird for wishing that dearest Supreme Leader would actually be as big as his hologram? that'd be kinda cool). I hope ep 8 isn't completely derived from ESB (once is enough Abrams)..aka the First Order goes Hoth on the resistance and then Luke plays the part of Yoda teaching Rey.

Everytime I see somebody say something like "I hope Abrams doesn't do X in Episode VIII" I wonder if they know he's read the script but had no hand in it and isn't directing it. Abrams did Episode 7 then stepped aside. He may stay on as a producer or whatever but that's about it.

[Ghambit]

Anyone see the design of Luke's prosthetic arm in the last sequence?  If so, does it match Rey's vision?  If not, then it's Windu in the vision petting R2.

[Surlyboi]

It's not Windu.

[K9]

Saw this earlier this evening.

The Good:

 - Poe, Rey, Finn, and BB-8 are all fantastic characters
 - The integration of Han, Chewie, and Leia into the plot
 - Lightsaber battles looked and felt great
 - The crazy tentacle monsters on the ship were rather fun

The Bad:

 - 3D remains utter balls
 - "Snoke"
 - While Rey and Fin's story was good, the rest of the plot really felt paper thin and shoehorned on
 - Scenes were two characters just stare each other down for ages without saying anything, too many of these

The other thoughts and gripes:

 - A lot of plot points weren't built up enough; Starkiller station just materialised out of nowhere, and when it does kill some planets it doesn't have the same impact as the destruction of Alderaan, because those people are gone as soon as they appear.
 - Ren being Han and Leia's son wasn't all that shocking, but maybe it wasn't supposed to be
 - Captain Phasma was entirely superfluous and seems to have only been included to have someone to lower the shields under duress, which was an awful gambit anyway. She's numbingly one dimensional. As is the new General Hux, his speech to the troops felt like something from Saturday Morning TV.
 - I'm not looking for more exposition, but some elaboration on the status of the republic and the resistance would be nice. Is the republic at war with the first order? If so why does the resistance exist? Who is the resistance resisting against? If the republic isn't fighting the first order what are they doing? Another underdeveloped plot point.

But aside from the 3D being awful, there was a ton of shooty-shooty space fun, and Rey and Fin's story with Han and Chewie was really enjoyable. Expecting Star Wars to be a narrative masterpiece is a reach anyway, but the latter third of the film did feel a bit half baked. Overall I liked it though, and would watch it again. A solid 7/10 film.

[Azazel]

For all you guys bitching that Rey beating Kylo Ren makes her some super badass "Mary Sue" this is what JJ Abrams said about Kylo Ren:

“Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain. And not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process.”

Yes, he's a powerful Jedi but he is by no means meant to be considered on a level with Darth Vader or probably even Anakin when he was turned to the dark side. He's likely about as capable as Luke was at the end of ANH or during the fight scene in ESB. And he was seriously wounded twice and had no ability to control and focus his anger as seen many times in the movie.

I dunno if he's necessarily even that powerful. Two other things occurred to me earlier this morning when I was loading up Star Wars Infinity - they stood out because of all the butthurt in this thread about him being beaten by Rey (after being gutshot by Chewie's "turned up to 11 lampshades" Bowcaster, being generally mindfucked in general and especially so after murdering Han, bleeding all over the place, banging his wound many times to demonstrate that he's wounded, and getting wounded again by Finn) : In the crawl, Kylo Ren is not referred to as a Sith, or a Sith lord, but as "An Agent of the First Order". Also, his name. It's not Darth Ren, or Darth Kylo. He's not a Sith at all yet. He's perhaps a Darkside apprentice at best. As pointed out, Gollum told Not-Tarkin to "bring him to be so he can begin his training".