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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  PC/Console Gaming  |  Steam  |  Topic: Now you CAN'T donate cuz $ made/gudwill lost is negative. 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Now you CAN'T donate cuz $ made/gudwill lost is negative.  (Read 8192 times)
rk47
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on: April 24, 2015, 04:33:39 AM

Quote
The Steam Workshop has always been a great place for discovering community-made mods, maps, and items for a variety of games. Starting now with The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, the Workshop is also a great place for community content creators to earn money by selling their greatest works.

We think this is a great opportunity to help support the incredible creative work being done by mod makers in the Steam Workshop and to encourage more top-quality work. This new feature allows mod authors to choose whether to list their items for a fixed price, for pay-what-you-want, or to make their item available for free. As a customer and fan of Skyrim, you're able to explore both paid and free mods, quests, and items.

The whole feature is best explained in the full press announcement and on the detailed announcement page and FAQ here: http://www.steamcommunity.com/workshop/aboutpaidcontent

Along with these new options available to mod-creators, we've added a few features to support the experience and make everything as easy as possible:

Free, Paid, or Pay What You Want
With over 24,000 free mods available for Skyrim in the Steam Workshop, there will always be lots to do and explore for free. Now you can also find mods with a specified price, or mods where you can choose how much you wish to support the creators. The price is up to the mod creators.

Try any mod, Risk Free
When shopping for anything, it's still important to spend a little time learning about any product you are about to purchase. But, if after purchase you find that a mod is broken or doesn’t work as promised, you can easily get a refund of that mod within 24 hours of your purchase. View the full refund policy here.

Play Skyrim For Free This Weekend
If you're new to Skyrim and haven't yet tried it out, now is your chance. Available now through April 26th, Skyrim is free to play. Just visit the Skyrim store page and click the 'play' button to download and start playing. If you decide you want to keep the game, it's also on sale for 75% off regular price!

Explore New Content
To prepare for this announcement, we've asked a few community mod makers to prepare some content for release. Browse Paid Skyrim Mods

Calling Creators!
Whether you're just getting started or are already a professional artist or developer, now you can make money from your creations in the Steam Workshop.

Starting with The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, you can make new cosmetic items, custom skins, fancy houses, epic quests, entire new cities, or just a new hat for Lydia. Once you've made your creation, you can easily set a price and earn a portion of each sale made through the Steam Workshop.

Plus, many more of your favorite Workshop games will support paid content in the coming weeks. Check out the full announcement and FAQ for more details.

http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365237576574

Well, it's been fun watching naked women bouncing in Skyrim for free the last 5 years.
I'll be sure to savor my last hours watching it replay the animations unfold tonight over a glass of milk.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:54:36 PM by rk47 »

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
satael
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Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 04:51:15 AM

There seems to be very little moderation or approval process for the mods so the most "enterprising" individuals are just uploading mods that they have no had no part in creating in hopes of making a quick buck. Add the change the dynamics of mod creation from any cooperation between the creators into competition once money becomes a factor and you just might have delivered a big blow to Skyrim modding (and whatever is the next Bethesda Elder Scroll/Falllout game). Also since it's steam workshop there's very little guarantee that the mods will actually work together especially past the 24-hour period.

tl;dr: this is a bad idea in my opinion.
rk47
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Reply #2 on: April 24, 2015, 04:56:39 AM

Oh, they lock all the pay out till you earn $400 as well. Fucking genius. Thanks for the $399.99, suckers!  why so serious?

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
apocrypha
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Reply #3 on: April 24, 2015, 05:44:17 AM

This is a car crash in slow motion. Any decent mods that go pay-only will be pirated hugely. The Steam mods will be flooded with mods ripped off from other people, crappy zero-effort $2 mods and genuine modders Steam accounts getting hacked. Those stealing other people's mods will issue copyright notices against the original mod owners.

Steam has zero customer support and a vested interest in stolen mods being sold instead of being given away free... so tough luck any genuine modders out there.

For all his blather about supprting PC gaming, Gabe Newell seems to be trying to destroy it. Either that or he's just incredibly stupid/greedy.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Lucas
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Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 05:55:20 AM

yeah, this is pure internet drama fuel at the moment  awesome, for real awesome, for real

I think Valve and Bethesda share 75% of the revenue, mod creator 25%. I mean, C'MON  swamp poop

I vastly prefer the "donate" button on Nexus (I actually purchased membership on Nexus as a 'thank you' for 7 years of awesome service), where 100% goes to the modder, as far as we know.

On the workshop, the "pay what you want" formula is the only thing that you can basically set so that it vaguely resemble a donation, but I don't know what the lower limit is.

For example, with that formula, "Wet & Cold" (neat mod) is listed at  €4.59 (LOL), but the lower limit is "only" 0.92 euro cents.
---------------------

Thanks to Mod Organizer and LOOT, I'm happily playing Skyrim with around 85 mods installed and no problems. If Nexus didn't exist, it means that, through the years, I would have paid around € 85 plus the base game + the official DLCs.

EDIT:
http://www.pcgamer.com/paid-for-skyrim-mod-removed-in-a-matter-of-hours/ (mod using another resource, FNIS)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 06:02:08 AM by Lucas »

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
rk47
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Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 07:03:47 AM

Someone didn't think this through on Steam.
Predicting much butthurt before Steam reverse course on this stupid change.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
satael
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Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 07:38:48 AM

If you think that modders protesting over others using their resources for profit is something just wait until someone manages to catch the attention of some real IP holder with something like this:
Merusk
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Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 08:30:23 AM

Which, combined with the lack of a real vetting process goes to show why Valve's "No bosses" approach doesn't work when it meets the real world.

"I don't want to be in charge of content review and vetting. That's boring and lame."

They'll probably try to argue that they're just a 3rd party like Google for any DMCA notifications. I think keeping ANY money themselves or any cut of the donations will do away with that notion.

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I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
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Zetor
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Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 08:31:30 AM

If you think that modders protesting over others using their resources for profit is something just wait until someone manages to catch the attention of some real IP holder with something like this:
That already happened back in 2003, when Marvel shut down some major Freedom Force (and Sims) sites because they used likenesses of their characters -- they also attacked Irrational Games, but I think they didn't get to the suing part (IG just published a new EULA/disclaimers about modders not being allowed to use any IP that is not their own). I don't know whether those were paysites or not...

I also seem to remember some major drama around that time with Sims sites starting to charge money for their mods. The more things change, the more they stay the same!


edit: I found it, I think -- http://www.freedomfans.com/KenMessage.html
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:34:45 AM by Zetor »

Lantyssa
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Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 08:58:52 AM

Sweet.  I need to put my Yngol Barrow Sea-Ghost mod over there, so I can make $10 that never gets released to me.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Samwise
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Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 10:57:12 AM

I'm honestly surprised at you all for thinking that the concept of charging money for IP is somehow brand new.  This seems like a completely obvious move to me.   swamp poop

If somebody wants to keep distributing their mod for free, they can, and nothing changes, right?  But if somebody wants to try to make money from their work, why the fuck shouldn't they be able to?  All the whining on the Steam forums about this sounds like entitled millennials who earnestly believe that everyone else should do work for them for free and like it.

There might be wrinkles with the implementation but the basic idea should be entirely uncontroversial to anyone with any concept of how much work can go into modding.

Bethesda's well within its rights to ask for a cut of those profits because mods are derivative works building on the investment they put into the core game.  If you don't like it go find another game that provides a better modding platform.  Or make your own from scratch.

They'll probably try to argue that they're just a 3rd party like Google for any DMCA notifications. I think keeping ANY money themselves or any cut of the donations will do away with that notion.

That and the fact that they're actually hosting it, which is where the line tends to get drawn.  They're definitely going to have to respond to notices of infringement.  No different from Youtube or any of a hundred other content hosting sites.

 Get off my lawn!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 11:00:35 AM by Samwise »

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Signe
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Reply #11 on: April 24, 2015, 12:30:25 PM

Sweet.  I need to put my Yngol Barrow Sea-Ghost mod over there, so I can make $10 that never gets released to me.

HA!  I love you when you make me laugh out loud!

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Malakili
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Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 12:38:08 PM

Much ado about nothing.
Kail
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Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 12:38:27 PM

Oh, they lock all the pay out till you earn $400 as well. Fucking genius. Thanks for the $399.99, suckers!  why so serious?

That sounds like a scaled back version of the $100 Greenlight fee, a way to keep people from just dumping copyrighted material with no repercussions (because what can you do when the Steam account is free).  Except instead of paying $100 up front to prove u R srs Dev kthx, you're delaying the payout.  So I don't think it will be as effective since you can still just grab 1000 copyrighted assets, sell them all on free accounts, and you risk nothing if Valve shuts you down.

That said, I would be interested in trying something like this if they implemented it for other games.  The mod scene for Skyrim is super crowded, but putting together something for Legend of Grimrock or Warlock 2 could be fun.  Though I do wonder why Skyrim is guinea pigging this, instead of Valve's own titles, say, Portal 2 or something.  The shop for TF2 and Dota 2 are basically the same as this except with developer moderation, seems weird to ask a third party developer to brave this shitstorm first.
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Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 12:47:00 PM

I don't doubt that a "Skyrim Modder Union" Steam account will appear at one point for the express purpose of producing enough sales volume of various smaller mods to push them collectively past the $400 mark.

"It's really simple, my friend. You want to sell mod? You send me file, I put it on market for 3.99$, paypal you $0.85 per sale. Everyone is happy. Oh, don't try selling on the market yourself, or I will have my botnet downvote you and you will never get past $400. So we are agreed, yes?"

I am sure nothing can go wrong here.  awesome, for real
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 12:54:08 PM by Zetor »

Merusk
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Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 01:19:13 PM

They'll probably try to argue that they're just a 3rd party like Google for any DMCA notifications. I think keeping ANY money themselves or any cut of the donations will do away with that notion.

That and the fact that they're actually hosting it, which is where the line tends to get drawn.  They're definitely going to have to respond to notices of infringement.  No different from Youtube or any of a hundred other content hosting sites.

 Get off my lawn!

No problem about charging from me, but when they're taking a cut they have to vet it. What makes it different from content hosting sites is those sites make money off ads, not the content. That's what protects THEM from DMCA lawsuits.  If Valve even holds on to a single dollar, they become liable.  That $400 cap means they'll be taking a dollar and if it's for an IP violation like Batman/ Superman/ Mickey Mouse they're in the shit.

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
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Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 01:30:20 PM

No they don't have to vet it -- e.g. the Google Play store doesn't vet app submissions.
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Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 01:34:00 PM

I don't doubt that a "Skyrim Modder Union" Steam account will appear at one point for the express purpose of producing enough sales volume of various smaller mods to push them collectively past the $400 mark.

"It's really simple, my friend. You want to sell mod? You send me file, I put it on market for 3.99$, paypal you $0.85 per sale. Everyone is happy. Oh, don't try selling on the market yourself, or I will have my botnet downvote you and you will never get past $400. So we are agreed, yes?"

I am sure nothing can go wrong here.  awesome, for real

We should do this. I'm an accountant, I'll let you run the muscle and I'll run the books.

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Torinak
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Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 02:26:29 PM

No they don't have to vet it -- e.g. the Google Play store doesn't vet app submissions.


I wonder if Valve spent as much effort crafting the licensing terms as Google probably did for Google Play, or if writing licensing agreements is another of those things that isn't fun so they get an intern to do it...

But low/no bar to entry plus low/no accountability means that the Workshop will be flooded with people trying to sell mods they didn't create and don't own. I wouldn't be surprised if the end result is that many of the "good" Skyrim modders just quit in disgust (spending more time on legal/copyright enforcement than on modding is probably not what they want). That sort of thing has already harmed other modding communities, even those that didn't/don't allow mods to be sold (Sims, Minecraft).

It would have been much nicer, and much classier, if Valve had just made it easy to add a prominent donation button to every mod's landing page.
apocrypha
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Reply #19 on: April 24, 2015, 02:50:50 PM

No they don't have to vet it -- e.g. the Google Play store doesn't vet app submissions.


And the Google Play store is a heap of useless shit stuffed with rubbish.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
Lucas
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Reply #20 on: April 24, 2015, 02:52:27 PM

No they don't have to vet it -- e.g. the Google Play store doesn't vet app submissions.


I wonder if Valve spent as much effort crafting the licensing terms as Google probably did for Google Play, or if writing licensing agreements is another of those things that isn't fun so they get an intern to do it...

But low/no bar to entry plus low/no accountability means that the Workshop will be flooded with people trying to sell mods they didn't create and don't own. I wouldn't be surprised if the end result is that many of the "good" Skyrim modders just quit in disgust (spending more time on legal/copyright enforcement than on modding is probably not what they want). That sort of thing has already harmed other modding communities, even those that didn't/don't allow mods to be sold (Sims, Minecraft).

It would have been much nicer, and much classier, if Valve had just made it easy to add a prominent donation button to every mod's landing page.

Infact, some modders already requested Nexus to hide their creation (here's a blog piece on Nexus about this topic):

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12454/?




" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Rasix
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Reply #21 on: April 24, 2015, 04:47:07 PM


-Rasix
Torinak
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Reply #22 on: April 24, 2015, 04:56:03 PM

No they don't have to vet it -- e.g. the Google Play store doesn't vet app submissions.


And the Google Play store is a heap of useless shit stuffed with rubbish.

Thankfully, the Workshop paid mods are shaping up to be of vastly higher caliber.

For $2.49, you can buy DLC that adds six pieces of rubbish to the floor of an inn.

For $29.99, you can buy DLC that adds an apple to one specific shelf.

For $79.99, you can buy a mod that finally rotates that bearskin rug in the first inn so it's lined up better.

Or my personal favorite, the $1.49 "rubbish bucket" mod...adding a bucket for your rubbish:

Quote
I am pleased to announce this exciting new DLC where you will get a chance to place your rubbish away safe in your very own bucket!

-EARLY ACCESS-
Currently this DLC is in early access stage and the bucket is broken and will need repairing.
I will be able to fit the bucket once I have enough backers to support me!

For this kind of high-quality paid DLC, I can't not fund my Steam Wallet fast enough!
Kail
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Reply #23 on: April 24, 2015, 04:56:50 PM

It would have been much nicer, and much classier, if Valve had just made it easy to add a prominent donation button to every mod's landing page.

It does seem odd to me, thinking about it, that they didn't just cannibalize the system they're using for Dota 2, where the dev picks workshop entries to "officially" integrate in to the game for money and the mod maker gets a cut of the sales from that.  Just having a little bit of oversight here should eliminate 90% of the scammy BS you get when you can just anonymously sell whatever you want for free.
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Reply #24 on: April 24, 2015, 05:08:39 PM

That would require effort on the developer side, effort they obviously do not give two shits about. They want FREE money, not money they have to work for.

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Reply #25 on: April 24, 2015, 05:18:19 PM

I can't tell whether the tantrum is "the mods are so good we NEEEED them to live, how dare the mod developers try to EXTORT us for money" or "the mods are so useless and broken, how dare the mod developers even ask for money for them".  Either of those complaints has a very obvious answer.

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
Lucas
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Reply #26 on: April 24, 2015, 06:28:25 PM

Now we'll get the "early access + paid mods" combo to justify rushed out products (but hey, modders will fix/improve it and we'll also get paid in the process, whoooo!!!), even more incomplete than before. Great.

" He's so impatient, it's like watching a teenager fuck a glorious older woman." - Ironwood on J.J. Abrams
Rasix
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Reply #27 on: April 24, 2015, 07:37:09 PM

I can't tell whether the tantrum is "the mods are so good we NEEEED them to live, how dare the mod developers try to EXTORT us for money" or "the mods are so useless and broken, how dare the mod developers even ask for money for them".  Either of those complaints has a very obvious answer.

Neither? The main arguments I've seen are related to there being no vetting process.  There's a number of reddit posts that detail the types of abuses this will occur, only one of them being your second option.  There is no QA, not even the most basic level.

The most pressing issue is with the potential for theft and the now the fact that if modders don't want someone profiting from their creations they have to be extremely hawkish about it.

A simple donation button probably would have been a better idea, but I suppose a 75% cut off a wild west mod market is tempting enough to brave the potential  Disney assfucking they'll get when someone starts selling a Jedi themed mod.


-Rasix
Samwise
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Reply #28 on: April 24, 2015, 07:58:31 PM

Neither? The main arguments I've seen are related to there being no vetting process.  There's a number of reddit posts that detail the types of abuses this will occur, only one of them being your second option.  There is no QA, not even the most basic level.

Valve doesn't do any of its own QA on the games sold via Steam either.  They do have the greenlight process, but that's mostly crowdsourced and doesn't include Valve putting a QA department on it to thrash it for bugs before accepting it.  Yet the existence of Steam has not thus far caused PC gaming to die a horrible death.

Like with anything, check the reviews before you buy it; that's your crowdsourced QA.  If you don't feel good about buying it, don't fucking buy it.

The theft concern is no different from existing stuff on the Steam workshop, or on Youtube, or any other thing ever created on the Internet over the last twenty years that allows users to upload original work and try to monetize it.  All of those things have their share of abuses but by and large the Internet has proven to be a pretty good platform for making money off your work.  I am, again, utterly baffled that people see the concept of "upload work, get paid for work" as some terrifying new invention.  Holy shit people might sell stolen goods on eBay guys, civilization as we know it is going to collapse.

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
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Reply #29 on: April 24, 2015, 08:34:44 PM


Valve doesn't do any of its own QA on the games sold via Steam either.  They do have the greenlight process, but that's mostly crowdsourced and doesn't include Valve putting a QA department on it to thrash it for bugs before accepting it.  Yet the existence of Steam has not thus far caused PC gaming to die a horrible death.

Like with anything, check the reviews before you buy it; that's your crowdsourced QA.  If you don't feel good about buying it, don't fucking buy it.

The theft concern is no different from existing stuff on the Steam workshop, or on Youtube, or any other thing ever created on the Internet over the last twenty years that allows users to upload original work and try to monetize it.  All of those things have their share of abuses but by and large the Internet has proven to be a pretty good platform for making money off your work.  I am, again, utterly baffled that people see the concept of "upload work, get paid for work" as some terrifying new invention.  Holy shit people might sell stolen goods on eBay guys, civilization as we know it is going to collapse.

I've been all saltyballs about this announcement, but the reality is this quote.

I think Steam has a responsibility to weed out the issues of theft, but otherwise, the entire process is consensual for all parties. Content creators should be able to make money on their content, if they wish. It's not going to completely stop the free mod community, but it might separate them over time. We'll still get great mods as users and over time the paid mods will have to provide a great experience to justify the cost.
Rasix
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Reply #30 on: April 24, 2015, 11:05:01 PM

Eh, good points.  I see legal quagmires in their future, but I'm sure Valve has wrapped themselves closely with a"hey, not our problem" legal blanket as they can.  How does Valve handle DMCA takedowns?  How about reimbursement for illegal mods they've already taken a cut from? What about refunds (LOL Steam refunds) for mods that don't work, cease functionality, etc? Is there any compunction for modders that sold mods to keep them compatible with game versions?   headache

I think this takes me further out of the modding scene, but I wasn't much a part of it anyhow.  I'll continue to enjoy my stock Bethsoft games.  I do want to see a tab for some of you that run with 100 Skyrim mods.  awesome, for real


-Rasix
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Reply #31 on: April 25, 2015, 04:03:17 AM

I've been all saltyballs about this announcement, but the reality is this quote.

I consider this to be very high praise.  Heart

"Nice attempted blast about my "drinking".  I do enjoy a nice cuppa, but that is because I am a bon vivant of gregarious nature and cheery disposition." - Ab
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Reply #32 on: April 25, 2015, 10:41:17 AM

This is a really really stupid and bad decision on Valve's behalf and for the marquee game (Skyrim) it has literally destroyed the community there in the space of like 2 days.

For example, SkyUI is basically a required mod for Skyrim since it unfucks the UI in a major way and tons and tons of very good mods people all like integrate into it (in other words, they require SkyUI to be installed).

Welp, the author of it is now putting it behind the paywall. So everyone who wrote a mod that integrated with it now can either figure out how to remove this integration (if they're even still around) or their mods don't work anymore without someone having to shell out money.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
satael
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Reply #33 on: April 25, 2015, 12:07:46 PM

This is a really really stupid and bad decision on Valve's behalf and for the marquee game (Skyrim) it has literally destroyed the community there in the space of like 2 days.

For example, SkyUI is basically a required mod for Skyrim since it unfucks the UI in a major way and tons and tons of very good mods people all like integrate into it (in other words, they require SkyUI to be installed).

Welp, the author of it is now putting it behind the paywall. So everyone who wrote a mod that integrated with it now can either figure out how to remove this integration (if they're even still around) or their mods don't work anymore without someone having to shell out money.

Aleast SKSE is staying free as it would have screwed up even more mods than SkyUI ever could.  awesome, for real
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Reply #34 on: April 25, 2015, 12:12:56 PM

On it's face, this is obviously a bad idea spearheaded by a fat check from Bethesda or someone equally stupid.

In reality, I'm shocked so many people care about mods.
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