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Author Topic: Now you CAN'T donate cuz $ made/gudwill lost is negative.  (Read 9145 times)
Teleku
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Reply #35 on: April 25, 2015, 12:13:11 PM

Wow, really?  Yeah, skyui going behind a paywall effectivly broke the game.  No reason to replay skyrim anymore.  Welp.

Smart companies realize having a free and open mod community expand the base and longevity of your game.  Blizzard has made a lot of money off that fact.  This is Bethesda killing off their mod community.  Crazy.

SKSE should just put itself behind a $100 paywall in protest, just to watch all downloads (and profits) from every single mod suddenly stop.   awesome, for real
On it's face, this is obviously a bad idea spearheaded by a fat check from Bethesda or someone equally stupid.

In reality, I'm shocked so many people care about mods.
Eh, Skyrim had one of the most amazing mod communities out there.  The game was a pretty in depth open world, and people could do amazing things with it.  Lots of fun to be had.  And I think mods of games are responsible for about 50% of my total game playing time over the last 2 decades, so it sucks to see bad decisions fuck that.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 12:17:04 PM by Teleku »

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Reply #36 on: April 25, 2015, 12:20:46 PM

Becoming a "paid modder" is really dumb unless your ambition is to simply make a pittance making mods and wanna put 75% of that cash into the pockets of publishers and valve.

If it's relatively low-effort shit like hats and gun skins in TF2/CS:GO, then whatever. But if you're doing stuff like Skywind or whatever you're better off just making your own game instead.

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Reply #37 on: April 25, 2015, 12:25:38 PM

Also Skyrim is flat out one of the most played games on Steam and the PC in general, even now.

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Malakili
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Reply #38 on: April 25, 2015, 01:20:30 PM

 Blizzard has made a lot of money off that fact.  This is Bethesda killing off their mod community.  Crazy.


Blizzard also lamented the way DOTA turned out and wish they had managed a way to retain the rights to it.  Blizzard proposed something almost exactly like this with Starcraft 2 modding years ago (although it never materialized) and they did make sure to clarify that they essentially own what you make on the Starcraft 2 arcade now.  They also effectively shut modding off as a possibility for Diablo 3 even though mods like Eastern Sun helped to keep Diablo 2 popular for a long time. Modding Blizzard games is at an all time low with this round of games (Starcraft 2, Diablo 3).

Ceryse
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Reply #39 on: April 25, 2015, 04:11:42 PM

This is a really really stupid and bad decision on Valve's behalf and for the marquee game (Skyrim) it has literally destroyed the community there in the space of like 2 days.

For example, SkyUI is basically a required mod for Skyrim since it unfucks the UI in a major way and tons and tons of very good mods people all like integrate into it (in other words, they require SkyUI to be installed).

Welp, the author of it is now putting it behind the paywall. So everyone who wrote a mod that integrated with it now can either figure out how to remove this integration (if they're even still around) or their mods don't work anymore without someone having to shell out money.

Wow. SkyUI behind a paywall? Basically means I'll never play Skyrim ever again, as I refuse to pay for mods and it'll fuck up so very many mods I used (some of which are unlikely to ever get an update to remove the SkyUI dependency).

Personally, I think the entire move by Steam is Stupid on a level that I'd normally only expect from EA or Ubisoft. Donation system would have been far superior.
Torinak
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Reply #40 on: April 25, 2015, 05:07:28 PM

I'm honestly surprised at you all for thinking that the concept of charging money for IP is somehow brand new.  This seems like a completely obvious move to me.   swamp poop

If somebody wants to keep distributing their mod for free, they can, and nothing changes, right?  But if somebody wants to try to make money from their work, why the fuck shouldn't they be able to?  All the whining on the Steam forums about this sounds like entitled millennials who earnestly believe that everyone else should do work for them for free and like it.

There might be wrinkles with the implementation but the basic idea should be entirely uncontroversial to anyone with any concept of how much work can go into modding.

Bethesda's well within its rights to ask for a cut of those profits because mods are derivative works building on the investment they put into the core game.  If you don't like it go find another game that provides a better modding platform.  Or make your own from scratch.

IMO, it's fine for modders to charge for mods right from the start. Switching from free to paid after release feels like a money grab more than anything, unless there's a clear increase in quality or significant ongoing costs that need to be covered.

Getting paid for doing as little as possible is the way of modern businesses, though. Relying on third-party modders to fix basic game flaws (and now profiting from it!), getting "volunteers" to handle processes or functionality (like vetting) that should be a responsibility of the business itself, etc. It makes me about as twitchy as day 0 DLC.

I know I'm old-fashioned (and am older than many if not most of the rest of you) but I believe in paying a fair price for a good product. I don't believe in rent-seekers injecting themselves into processes to siphon out free-to-them money without adding corresponding value.

As for modders who continue to work for free, they can...but now it's guaranteed that someone will steal their work and try to sell it. The volunteer modders will probably end up with increased support efforts too, beyond any effort to stop blatant theft. This happens all the time with Minecraft mods when someone downloads a stolen version of a mod and ends up with malware or an outdated version that causes problems.
Kail
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Reply #41 on: April 25, 2015, 06:19:31 PM

Modders being paid for their work is fine and has been happening on Steam for a while (half of Valve's library started off as mods).  The problem is that this isn't helping modders much, it's DEFINITELY not helping consumers, but Valve and Bethesda "we sell horse armor" Game Studios are raking it in off of other people's work.

Yes, it's ultimately a modder's choice if they opt-in or not, but in 95% of cases that's not going to be a good decision.  You're chopping your audience to maybe 5% of what it was before, and you're only getting 25% of what they're paying.  This is not a situation where you get rich, it's not a situation where you get famous, it's a situation where a mod that would have had a community of a few hundred users will now have a total circulation I can count on one hand and earn the author a dollar or two.

GabeN says the mod store has pulled in $10k so far.  Minus Valve's cut, that's about 2.5k spread across the 17 mods that are currently pay-to-play.  That's about $150 per mod on average, for mods that are in the top one tenth of one percent of all 25,000 mods on the workshop.  This is not a lot of money, and that's WITH the banner ads ad the news announcement and all the coverage this has been getting.  Meanwhile, Valve and Bethesda have pulled in $7,500 selling other people's work.

This is not compensating modders, this is exploiting them.
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Reply #42 on: April 25, 2015, 08:09:15 PM

For mods that have gone from free to paid, do people who had the mods before (and who possibly bought the base game on the strength of its free mods) suddenly get locked out of them?  If so that's pretty bad.  If not, who cares, you got your free copy.  If other people don't think it's worth paying for, or if it's not worth paying for the base game without the free mod that fixes it, they don't have to pay for either.

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Goreschach
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Reply #43 on: April 25, 2015, 08:20:02 PM

This is a terrible fucking idea. TES is already known as a series that you expect to have to mod just to fix the games, and now you'll need to buy 'mods' to make the base game playable?

This and Elder Scrolls Online really make it look like they're just trying to wreck their own IP. TES V sales aren't going to touch Skyrim. kthxbye bethsoft.
rk47
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Reply #44 on: April 25, 2015, 10:21:49 PM

You can still get most mods for free on Nexus.
But the installation is definitely not as easy as Steam Workshop.
I'm successfully reinstalled the usual mods from nexus with nary a cent paid.


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Reply #45 on: April 25, 2015, 10:48:53 PM

This is a terrible fucking idea. TES is already known as a series that you expect to have to mod just to fix the games, and now you'll need to buy 'mods' to make the base game playable?

This and Elder Scrolls Online really make it look like they're just trying to wreck their own IP. TES V sales aren't going to touch Skyrim. kthxbye bethsoft.

Someone made this as a very salient point on the Reddit thread. There's even less incentive for Bethesda to do shit right now. Someone else will fix it and they'll get paid for it.

However, so long as the mods remain available for free on Nexus I don't think it completely applies.

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Samwise
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Reply #46 on: April 26, 2015, 01:02:08 AM

Could cut both ways -- if somebody fixes something critical but then wants to charge for the fix, reviewers aren't going to consider the add-on fix in reviews and consumers are less likely to put up with the problem and buy the game, which cuts into sales.  Bethesda then has a stronger motivation to buy out the modder (or do the work themselves) and put the fix into the core game.

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Torinak
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Reply #47 on: April 26, 2015, 01:20:21 AM

Could cut both ways -- if somebody fixes something critical but then wants to charge for the fix, reviewers aren't going to consider the add-on fix in reviews and consumers are less likely to put up with the problem and buy the game, which cuts into sales.  Bethesda then has a stronger motivation to buy out the modder (or do the work themselves) and put the fix into the core game.

If we have to rely on the high-integrity game journalists pointing out these kinds of flaws in AAA games, I think players have already lost.
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Reply #48 on: April 26, 2015, 02:01:30 AM

Could cut both ways -- if somebody fixes something critical but then wants to charge for the fix, reviewers aren't going to consider the add-on fix in reviews and consumers are less likely to put up with the problem and buy the game, which cuts into sales.  Bethesda then has a stronger motivation to buy out the modder (or do the work themselves) and put the fix into the core game.

If we have to rely on the high-integrity game journalists pointing out these kinds of flaws in AAA games, I think players have already lost.

We've already established that you have to rely on the playerbase to fix the flaws themselves after they've already paid AAA prices, so I think the players lost a long time ago.   awesome, for real

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Reply #49 on: April 26, 2015, 05:11:02 AM

It's like someone thinks the hobby is "paying for video games" instead of "playing video games".

Just enough consumers keep falling for it that they keep trying.
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Reply #50 on: April 26, 2015, 12:56:53 PM

Out of curiosity, is there anything that stops people from taking paid mods, changing a few lines of code and the name, and releasing it as free?  If they are bad at quality control and stopping people from stealing free stuff, seems like it might work the other way around.

RK, so is sky ui still available on nexus?  Interestimg if they keep it free over there, but start charging on steam.

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Kail
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Reply #51 on: April 26, 2015, 02:29:14 PM

RK, so is sky ui still available on nexus?  Interestimg if they keep it free over there, but start charging on steam.

AFAIK his plans are to keep the current version free (on both Nexus and Steam) but any future updates are paid workshop content only.  I don't think he's looking to screw people over or anything, it looks like the people involved were kind of clueless about what the reaction would be.

Quote
Well... currently, the plan is the following:

    -Upload new version for minimum $1 (pay-what-you-want) on SW.
    -Keep old version for free as it is on both Nexus and SW.
    -Service provider split would go to Nexus to support the site even if I can't host the free version there.
    -Any changes to core infrastructure like MCM flows back to the free version as well, so I won't try to force you to upgrade or pull any other stupid stunt like that.

[snip...]

I didn't make the launch date, because I'm also a contributor for SKSE, so I knew that it was going up on Steam and I wanted to wait for that. At this point, I still assumed the major hurdle would've been making everything work with a few clicks. I don't particularly regret missing it, considering the immense shitstorm. Didn't really see that coming.
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Reply #52 on: April 26, 2015, 02:31:18 PM

Out of curiosity, is there anything that stops people from taking paid mods, changing a few lines of code and the name, and releasing it as free?  If they are bad at quality control and stopping people from stealing free stuff, seems like it might work the other way around.

Basically the same as people uploading copyrighted stuff to Youtube and putting a little bit of garbage into it to stop the automated detectors.  Lasts until the copyright holder notices it.   awesome, for real

Wouldn't be surprised if they end up having a rule that to contribute stuff to the workshop you need to have spent some money on your steam account (similar to Greenlight) to prevent people from making throwaway accounts.  If each ban costs money that's a pretty solid deterrent.

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Reply #53 on: April 26, 2015, 03:58:30 PM

Is the game really that broken out of the box that one MUST have mods to make it playable?

I'm just noticing now that I bought Skyrim at some point last fall. Still haven't bothered to load it up; I've never actually owned a TES game, and was never huge on them.

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Reply #54 on: April 26, 2015, 04:05:33 PM

No, but mods to really improve the quality of life at the very least - particularly in relation to the UI.
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Reply #55 on: April 26, 2015, 05:32:35 PM

SkyUI comes as close as one possibly could to required without actually being a part of the game you buy. I'm a pretty light mod user but that one was just necessary. It's insane how bad the inventory/spells UI on Skyrim actually is.

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Reply #56 on: April 27, 2015, 07:10:03 PM

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Reply #57 on: April 27, 2015, 07:15:00 PM

At least they listen to community feedback. Bravo, Gaben.

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Reply #58 on: April 27, 2015, 07:15:05 PM

Good.

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Reply #59 on: April 27, 2015, 07:26:07 PM

Talk about "breaking news"  awesome, for real

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Reply #60 on: April 27, 2015, 07:29:50 PM

Who said Internet tantrums never accomplished anything?   awesome, for real

If I were the SkyUI guy I'd make my next (free) update turn everything into a giant cock.  But that's me.

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Reply #61 on: April 27, 2015, 07:43:44 PM

Gabe held an AMA before deciding to remove this as well:

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/?sort=qa
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Reply #62 on: April 27, 2015, 07:45:23 PM

Hopefully it's being reworked.  I think the idea has some potential, if it's handled right.  Like, if you LAUNCHED a game with paid mods as an option, I don't think there'd be much outcry from consumers (because you're not taking away something they already have).  But popping in to a four year old game to say "by the way, we're charging for the stuff you've been using for free for the past half decade" is going to raise eyebrows.
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Reply #63 on: April 27, 2015, 07:46:26 PM

His AMA was full of bullshit though. It was a pretty terrible, though impromptu, ama.

Anyway!

Quote
We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.

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rk47
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Reply #64 on: April 27, 2015, 10:56:53 PM

RK, so is sky ui still available on nexus?  Interestimg if they keep it free over there, but start charging on steam.

It still is. I've reinstalled all of the mods over the weekend with Nexus Mod Manager.

His AMA was full of bullshit though. It was a pretty terrible, though impromptu, ama.

Anyway!

Quote
We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.

ENJOY TF3, NERDS.

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« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 10:58:58 PM by rk47 »

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Reply #65 on: April 28, 2015, 12:10:32 AM

I have to say I'm positively surprised that they backed down on this relatively quickly instead of deciding to double down on the idea. I wonder which game will be the next big hit that will start out with paid fan mods right from the release (or atleast as soon as the developer releases some tools for modding the game after the release) since you can be sure that the idea of getting revenue this way isn't gone and it will (un)fortunately work better next time if they avoid the biggest mistakes made this time.
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Reply #66 on: April 28, 2015, 03:50:23 AM

Newell claimed in that AMA that the negative email etc. from this had cost them $1m over a few days whilst the mod sales had brought in $10k over the same period.

The decision to backpedal was nothing to do with listening & caring, just business.

But yes, the AMA was stuffed with errors/misinformation/bullshit/lies (choose accordingly, depending on your level of Valve worship) so those numbers aren't even vaguely reliable.

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Reply #67 on: April 28, 2015, 09:12:24 AM

It's too bad whiny Internet cunts win this time. I've painted for free but it's my choice to gift or sell, not the recipient's. If you don't like that my time, effort and materials cost money, feel free to not buy my product. Even if I have to pay a cut to the manufacturers of the paints and materials, as well as the postal service and taxes. But don't let me piss into the overflowing well of free bees.

I'll miss this round of "I'll never give Steam another penny (but of course I'll still have it installed because my games are there and well, the summer sale doesn't count)".

And I barely paid attention.

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Reply #68 on: April 28, 2015, 09:23:13 AM

Eh, you're missing the point here Sky.

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Teleku
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Reply #69 on: April 28, 2015, 10:28:47 AM

Main issue (as gabe admitted) is them attempting to monitize the community after its already been established for years.  This wouldn't have been an issue if they had launched the game with built in support for paid mods (as I'm sure all future Bethesda and Valve games will).

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