Yet another NWN successor enters the fray - Sword Coast Legends

[Xilren's Twin]

Recently announced, a multi-player D&D RPG with a DM client, supposedly to be released this year.
They are already pre-selling, and offering perks for 4 packs and such.

On the plus side, a 4 player co-op dungeon crawler with possible DM involvement might be right up my alley.
D&D license and lore can be a plus (can be, not is).
Can be played single player.

On the downside, could be micro-transactions out the ying yang since you can see in some of the more expensive pre-orders things like "Lost Mines dunegeon tile set for DMs" and worse, "Design council access - Help Dev's make decisions that shape the game"
Could be way too action oriented since it's based on 5th edition D&D which gives all the appearance of standard MMORPG hot button combat.

I'm going to stick this on my watch list.
  

[Trippy]

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get past the fact that the game's Web site is designed by somebody who still thinks we're in the 20th Century. Could be WotC's influence, though, cause the dev's Web site is using current design technology and patterns.

[schild]

If by watch list, you mean neighborhood watch list because a sex offender just moved in, then yes.

It's WOTC. Protect your butthole.

[Samwise]

If by watch list, you mean neighborhood watch list because a sex offender just moved in, then yes.

It's WOTC. Protect your butthole.

[Khaldun]

Does anybody know why WOTC is so utterly hapless when it comes to anything involving computers? Is it just being cheap as hell? Is there someone there in the corporate hierarchy who is just unusually stupid? Because this sounds a lot like the 4th edition digital tools etc etc and I just remember being kind of stunned that they couldn't even execute making a fucked-up version of what they'd announced--that they were too fucked up even to make a fuck up.

[HaemishM]

Does anybody know why WOTC is so utterly hapless when it comes to anything involving computers? Is it just being cheap as hell? Is there someone there in the corporate hierarchy who is just unusually stupid?

I see no reason it can't be all of the above. Games Workshop has the same problem with digital shit - it's just a different mindset that they refuse or are incapable of moving past.

[Malakili]

I was excited until I saw WOTC, myself.  A good RPG with a proper DM Client is something I've been waiting for since the last NWN.  Even NWN 2 didn't come close to the first one, which was really stellar (and which had an absolutely amazing mod community).

[WayAbvPar]

Does anybody know why WOTC is so utterly hapless when it comes to anything involving computers? Is it just being cheap as hell? Is there someone there in the corporate hierarchy who is just unusually stupid? Because this sounds a lot like the 4th edition digital tools etc etc and I just remember being kind of stunned that they couldn't even execute making a fucked-up version of what they'd announced--that they were too fucked up even to make a fuck up.

They are in a very tech-adverse location. The Puget Sound area has a real dearth of tech companies and workers.

[schild]

Not even. Lack of tech there means nothing. They pay fuckall and treat employees like shit. That's the actual problem.

[Evildrider]

Someone please just make a faithful port and do a Baldur's Gate 3. 

[Torinak]

Does anybody know why WOTC is so utterly hapless when it comes to anything involving computers? Is it just being cheap as hell? Is there someone there in the corporate hierarchy who is just unusually stupid? Because this sounds a lot like the 4th edition digital tools etc etc and I just remember being kind of stunned that they couldn't even execute making a fucked-up version of what they'd announced--that they were too fucked up even to make a fuck up.

They are in a very tech-adverse location. The Puget Sound area has a real dearth of tech companies and workers.

This is supposed to be in green, right? Seattle alone has the second-highest tech concentration in the country (16% of all jobs in the area), second only to Silicon Valley...

(edit: Yes, I think you know this, but schild's response seemed to miss the sarcasm)

[Trippy]

Back in the Peter Adkison days it was all about who you knew (usually Peter) rather than what you knew (i.e. had actual talent or skills). I have no idea what's been going on over there post-Adkison, though.

[Merusk]

WOTC and GW both see physical product, not the rule sets, as their core widget. Looking at it from that mindset, the digital goods would only dilute and cheapen the brand.  Yes it's a stupid 1980s view of things but it explains why they don't move pass paper books, cardboard rectangles, and plastic models.

[Khaldun]

But I totally get that. It makes sense. Kind of stupid sense, but still. I just don't see then why to ever make moves towards digital. The outfits I know that have decided that some kind of brick-and-mortar is really their core thing tend to stick to it. If they decide not, they hire somebody who isn't completely clueless. Or maybe they do--once--and then get a clue. WOTC just seems to be in another realm of "whowowowowowhoooooa computers how do they work".

[Trippy]

Which is weird cause Adkison has a CS degree.

[Xilren's Twin]

But I totally get that. It makes sense. Kind of stupid sense, but still. I just don't see then why to ever make moves towards digital. The outfits I know that have decided that some kind of brick-and-mortar is really their core thing tend to stick to it. If they decide not, they hire somebody who isn't completely clueless. Or maybe they do--once--and then get a clue. WOTC just seems to be in another realm of "whowowowowowhoooooa computers how do they work".

It really boils down to mis-management from both Hasbro and WotC.  If you follow magic you might know the name John Loucks, who used to do the Limited Resources podcast some time ago but left that to join WotC on their digital design side.  He didnt last long there, and when he left he gave a carefully worded look at what is going on with WotC digital.  To wit:

I would describe Wizards as “siloed.” Each department is fairly disconnected from the others. There are strict channels of communication, and the departments tend to look out for themselves. There are a lot of documents being “thrown over the wall” to other departments, without a lot of communication.

So, it seems like classic bad leadership and management on the design side, most likely b/c that whole area is treated like the red headed stepchild, and who priority task is "dont do anything to screw up our paper products".  I dont know if it mainly one person making the top level bone headed decisions that just set the stage for failure over and over, or a nice committee of the incompetant, but these chuckleheads cant even redesign their own website without making it worse.  My only hope is when they hire outside studios to do digital work for them.

And yes, "my watchlist" is  combo of things i hope happen, and disasters i may want to rubberneck too :)

[Sophismata]

Single player campaign created by members of the leadership team that brought you Dragon Age™: Origins

This does not fill me with confidence. I thought DA:O had some pretty bad gameplay and a worse story.

Could be way too action oriented since it's based on 5th edition D&D which gives all the appearance of standard MMORPG hot button combat.

Really? 5th edition flows much like a very lean 3rd edition. The gamist one is 4th.

[Xuri]

Single player campaign created by members of the leadership team that brought you Dragon Age™: Origins

This does not fill me with confidence. I thought DA:O had some pretty bad gameplay and a worse story.

But this isn't made by the designers and writers who brought you Dragon Age™: Origins, this made by their leadership team!

[Paelos]

Single player campaign created by members of the leadership team that brought you Dragon Age™: Origins

This does not fill me with confidence. I thought DA:O had some pretty bad gameplay and a worse story.

Is this a knock on the Western RPG in general, or this game specifically? Because I've probably spent more time on DA:O than any game in my steam library other than Mount and Blade Warband.

[Malakili]

I liked, more or less, Dragon Age: Origin's gameplay.  It was enough of a throwback to Baldur's Gate that it worked for me.  On the other hand, the story drove me bonkers.  I hate when RPGs daisy chain quests like "For me to help you do X," and then you get to doing X, and you meet another guy whose help you need for X, but then he demands you do Y, and then you are getting to do Y and you find another person who wants you to do Z so he can help you do Y.

I enjoyed the game right up until I got about 4 such recursions into the dwarf area in some kind of cave system(it's been a while I don't remember the specifics of story that well), said "fuck this" turned off the game and just never had any interest in firing it up again.

[Sophismata]

Single player campaign created by members of the leadership team that brought you Dragon Age™: Origins

This does not fill me with confidence. I thought DA:O had some pretty bad gameplay and a worse story.

Is this a knock on the Western RPG in general, or this game specifically? Because I've probably spent more time on DA:O than any game in my steam library other than Mount and Blade Warband.

DA:O specifically. I think DA:O was my western RPG breaking point (although I had similar issues with ME1).

The gameplay was either way too easy, or damn stupid depending on your difficulty setting. 95% of my fights involved a train of combatants running literal circles around a lone archer or wizard that would gradually plink all the enemies to death. The fights never managed to be challenging or engaging. Characters couldn't melee a moving opponent. Mages were better than every other class with no downside and much of the setting theme was lost to the mechanical implementation of spellcasting.

Story-wise, the side quests made no sense as components of the larger plot. I'm told to prepare the world for a coming storm with far-reaching consequences OH WAIT NO, AN ELF WANTS ME TO HELP HIM GET A GIRLFRIEND FIRST. That kind of random crap worked in BG2 because those sidequests were the objective, but they seem massively out of place in Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

[Paelos]

Story-wise, the side quests made no sense as components of the larger plot. I'm told to prepare the world for a coming storm with far-reaching consequences OH WAIT NO, AN ELF WANTS ME TO HELP HIM GET A GIRLFRIEND FIRST. That kind of random crap worked in BG2 because those sidequests were the objective, but they seem massively out of place in Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

Combat I get you. DA:O combat wasn't anything special, and some of the friendly fire stuff was downright dumb. Mages were OP with no consequence.

But the story thing? I think it made sense. The world doesn't stop spinning just because you're under attack of a Blight. People still had needs, and they'd still beg the hero to help. People ask for dumb things all the time. Imagine being a city council guy and just going to lunch, you'd hear about bullshit constantly. It's no difference when you're the fucking Hero of Ferelden. My cat's in a tree, are you a hero or not?

[Lantyssa]

Sure, but they're not very interesting.  We're trying to get away from our day jobs by playing a game.

[Malakili]

 I think DA:O was my western RPG breaking point (although I had similar issues with ME1).

It definitely was for me.  I was legitimately excited about it. I played the crap out of the old RPGs - Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, NWN, etc.  Just couldn't get enough of it.  I imagine it was me that changed more than the genre, but DA:O just caused something in snap and I haven't really played a game like that since.  I WANT to like it again, and I'm waiting for something to change my mind.  But, nothing has come along so far. 

Although I do still get a lot of enjoyment from the Bethesda RPGs for the most part.  New Vegas is my favorite I think, I played that more than any other (non MMO) RPG in years.

[Rendakor]

I thought it was just me. I played DA:O when it came out and it just felt like D&D and MMOs had a baby. The big choices in each area were interesting, but the shit you had to slog through to get there was so tedious. 99% of the combat on Normal was trivially easy, except one boss who I literally had to look up an insta-kill code because I couldn't beat him, couldn't zone out, and would had to re-do about 5 hours of gameplay from my previous save. I even went back to replay it a few months back and couldn't finish it this time either.

Admittedly, I was never a huge Bioware fan to begin with; I loved NWN and KOTOR but never played any of the Baldur's Gates (besides the PS2 ARPGs) and liked ME1 even less than DA:O. Bethesda scratches the itch much better for me, as do ATLUS and NIS.

[Ironwood]

I would like this to be good, but it won't be.

DA:O was wank.

What I really want is someone to develop something that will allow me to play roleplaying games, either on my todd or with other people, using digital means.  I can't remember the last roleplaying game I actually enjoyed, though I guess if you were being generous, you could put Grimrock in there.

[HaemishM]

Blackguards?

[Xilren's Twin]

I would like this to be good, but it won't be.

DA:O was wank.

What I really want is someone to develop something that will allow me to play roleplaying games, either on my todd or with other people, using digital means.  I can't remember the last roleplaying game I actually enjoyed, though I guess if you were being generous, you could put Grimrock in there.

Eh, most cRPGs the story is just window dressing and the game is all about the combat.  Many recent rpgs have felt like a party focused, turn based diablo game.  Divinity OS, Blackguards, Wasteland 2, etc all fall in this.  Which are fine, but not what i really want as a rewarding RPG experience.  To me, a good RPG should be about the story, so having a game with a DM should hopefully focus on shared story telling and not simply designing combat encounters.  So, that means a game that can utilize non-combat skills/situations, and conversation and hopefully on the fly DM adjustments.  I'm not holding my breathe for this particular game, but if they are willing to try a DM and small party design, i will listen.

[Malakili]

A DM Client is definitely great for multiplayer, but even in single player there is a pretty big difference these days.  Part of it, I think, is the prevalence of voice overs for all the dialog and the new dialog wheel thing that is popular.  I much prefer good old fashioned text boxes and getting to choose my responses from a list.  That is one of the reasons I liked those Shadow Run games that came out recently despite the fact that they were really quite linear.  The pacing feels entirely different based on these two different ways  of doing dialog.  It's certainly not the only thing that matters, but it's definitely a personal preference that probably comes from growing up with it the one way.  I like being able to imagine the voices and the characters more, and with better technology there is actually less room for that.

[Rendakor]

I agree; Japanese VNs also spoil me in that regard as they often have an un-voiced protag even if all the other characters are voiced. It's much easier to immerse myself in the character when I can imagine him sounding like whatever I want; hearing someone else voice the MC makes it clear that it's not me playing him.

[Paelos]

Some of these responses really make you sound like old RPG farts.

[Malakili]

Some of these responses really make you sound like old RPG farts.

Oh, I definitely am.  I grew up playing pencil and paper D&D and that's always going to be the gold standard for RPGs for me.  Obviously no cRPG (without a DM actively involved) can match that experience, but it is always going to be the experience that I am judging them against anyway.

[Xilren's Twin]

Some of these responses really make you sound like old RPG farts.

I'm about half way to 90.  Get off my virtual lawn.

[Merusk]

Carly'sCRPGs have always been about combat then story.   The stories were also always shit. It's been that way since at least Eye of The Beholder and the few Gold Box games I tried did nothing to change that notion. Take off the rose colored glasses.

ed: Carly's? Fucking phones.

Anyway, to expand, none of the storys of the past were well fleshed-out or well-written. It's the nostalgia of time and 10-20 years separation that makes you think it. None of the games I've revisited have held-up on a story level. There was a lot more personal in-fill than I would have expected and the tropes that are tired at 40 were fresh under 30.

[Ironwood]

Some of these responses really make you sound like old RPG farts.

Hi, I don't think we've met.