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Author Topic: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online  (Read 565451 times)
Typhon
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Reply #910 on: March 18, 2015, 11:23:53 AM

If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

You realize that outright fighting isn't the only kind of "PvP" in these games right?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be able to just do combat on your character if you want to.  But if all you want is deathmatch, I'm not sure why you'd want an MMO to begin with.

I really don't know why I still get sucked into these same stupid arguments a decade later.  Eh, whatever.

What argument, I just said, essentially, "I don't want PvE in my PvP".  There were parts of WAR that I found a lot of fun - the places on the map where you fought eachother (can't remember the name) were good.  When they said, "campaigns", in my head I read that as, "Shadowbane land battle with victory conditions and a maximum campaign duration" and thought that sounded pretty cool.

All these crafting/material systems just sound tedious... TO ME.  You could just say, "welp, seems like the game isn't for you then".  And I'd say, "yeah, well I hope it's to y'alls liking".  Instead, drama.  Eh, whatever.
Paelos
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Reply #911 on: March 18, 2015, 11:31:33 AM

No drama, just don't see your point. If you want fighting for pure fighting, there's already hundreds of multiplayer games that scratch that itch.

I don't think you would ever want any version of MMO PvP if you're actually into PvP for the pure kill. They mostly suck at implementation.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Typhon
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Reply #912 on: March 18, 2015, 12:23:11 PM

No drama, just don't see your point. If you want fighting for pure fighting, there's already hundreds of multiplayer games that scratch that itch.

I don't think you would ever want any version of MMO PvP if you're actually into PvP for the pure kill. They mostly suck at implementation.

I had no problem with your response.  You basically said, "if you don't want to fight over mines and the out of combat competition of gearing up your warband then this game is probably not for you", which is valid.  Which is almost exactly the same as Malikili's post, except for the, "SOB! I DON'T KNOW WHY I BOTHER!", at the end which annoyed the shit out of me for some reason.

What I want from this game is to have the crafting/resources/etc as part of the PvP rather than as something you do for a couple weeks in preparation for the PvP.
Falconeer
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Reply #913 on: March 18, 2015, 12:26:36 PM

The way they are building it sounds to me like it has zero PvE or very close to. Resources and all are like rewards and the fuel (excuses) for PvP, certainly not PvE. Sure, you might have to kill a mob to drop the rune you are looking for, but it is clear they are building the game so the risk when attacking that mob is not that the mob will kill you, but that another player will attack you while you are fighting that mob. If there will be any PvE, it will be trivial content meant to create PvP hotspots. Todd even said in the last interview that he sees it as Walking Dead, where the monster threat (PvE/zombies) becomes something you don't pay attention to anymore as the real threat are other people. So more of DayZ than your usual theme park MMO.

So yea, win/win. Especially cause they have stated a million times that you won't be able to be a crafter AND a fighter, meaning there will likely be one person wantng to play crafter every 19 who want to play fighter. So, where's the problem?

Resources don't mean PvE. Crafting doesn't mean YOU have to do it in a game where crafters are a dedicated class that is not supposed to fight. Don't mean to stop the drama, but I really think this game seems to do exactly what Typohon wants to me, as he can be a grunt and forget everything about resources and crafting as long as at least one person in their group is keeping track of that stuff.

Malakili
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Reply #914 on: March 18, 2015, 12:27:29 PM



What I want from this game is to have the crafting/resources/etc as part of the PvP rather than as something you do for a couple weeks in preparation for the PvP.

I think that is what is going to happen, based on what they have said.

As for the rest, you can't understand at all why I'm growing tired of the same old MMO PvP discussion?  I was just commenting on the fact that as I was writing my response I realized I've had this same conversation a dozen times and that it isn't going to get resolved this time either.
Threash
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Reply #915 on: March 18, 2015, 03:05:38 PM

If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

You realize that outright fighting isn't the only kind of "PvP" in these games right?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be able to just do combat on your character if you want to.  But if all you want is deathmatch, I'm not sure why you'd want an MMO to begin with.

I really don't know why I still get sucked into these same stupid arguments a decade later.  Eh, whatever.

What argument, I just said, essentially, "I don't want PvE in my PvP".  There were parts of WAR that I found a lot of fun - the places on the map where you fought eachother (can't remember the name) were good.  When they said, "campaigns", in my head I read that as, "Shadowbane land battle with victory conditions and a maximum campaign duration" and thought that sounded pretty cool.

All these crafting/material systems just sound tedious... TO ME.  You could just say, "welp, seems like the game isn't for you then".  And I'd say, "yeah, well I hope it's to y'alls liking".  Instead, drama.  Eh, whatever.

The biggest reason pvp happened in shadowbane was over territory you could pve in.

I am the .00000001428%
Paelos
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Reply #916 on: March 18, 2015, 04:08:14 PM

MMO PvP needs incentives, and also common chokepoints. You don't want people just wandering around looking for a fight, you want them fighting over something that has a specific area you can't avoid.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Typhon
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Reply #917 on: March 18, 2015, 05:17:56 PM



What I want from this game is to have the crafting/resources/etc as part of the PvP rather than as something you do for a couple weeks in preparation for the PvP.

I think that is what is going to happen, based on what they have said.

As for the rest, you can't understand at all why I'm growing tired of the same old MMO PvP discussion?  I was just commenting on the fact that as I was writing my response I realized I've had this same conversation a dozen times and that it isn't going to get resolved this time either.

I can.  I don't know why I'm pissy today.  Sorry.
shiznitz
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Reply #918 on: March 19, 2015, 09:00:01 AM

Is that the first "Sorry" in f13 history? AND in a MMO thread about PvP vs PvE? Fuck.  We are getting old.

I have never played WoW.
Paelos
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Reply #919 on: March 19, 2015, 09:08:34 AM

We've gone soft as Charmin.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Falconeer
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Reply #920 on: March 19, 2015, 10:01:55 AM

I have a long personal history of "sorry" here on f13, which I am usually mocked for. I guess it's a cultural divide. Good think I don't care.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

Threash
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Reply #921 on: March 19, 2015, 10:21:03 AM

15k backer goal is oculus rift support  swamp poop

I am the .00000001428%
Ginaz
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Reply #922 on: March 19, 2015, 10:51:26 AM

We've gone soft as Charmin.

I'm soft as baby shit these days. Get off my lawn!
Draegan
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Reply #923 on: March 19, 2015, 10:56:40 AM

15k backer goal is oculus rift support  swamp poop

Yeah I don't understand that one. How do you have VR in a 3rd person game.
Paelos
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Reply #924 on: March 19, 2015, 11:10:07 AM

The 15k backer thing could have been called Monkey farts and rainbows. I don't think they're getting there in 6 days unless Chris Roberts commands his horde to sacrifice themselves.

In other news, 10 people backed 10k on this thing? That's not real right?

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Threash
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Reply #925 on: March 19, 2015, 11:14:06 AM

It's not real until the timer ends, yeah.

I am the .00000001428%
pxib
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Reply #926 on: March 19, 2015, 11:21:14 AM

Alternately, they're the PvPers who left online games after Shadowbane closed and used their spare time to go get real jobs... but haven't managed to get married or have kids. Nothing excites them more than the idea of returning to the glory days of their youth, and $10,000 seems a small price to pay for a leg up in Shadowbane II. Otherwise it'd all just disappear into Warhammer miniatures.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
Soulflame
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Reply #927 on: March 19, 2015, 01:13:02 PM

15k backer goal is oculus rift support  swamp poop

At first I was like  awesome, for real.

And then I realized, whoa, he's serious.

Then I was like.  ACK! swamp poop
Tannhauser
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Reply #928 on: March 19, 2015, 02:12:09 PM

Alternately, they're the PvPers who left online games after Shadowbane closed and used their spare time to go get real jobs... but haven't managed to get married or have kids. Nothing excites them more than the idea of returning to the glory days of their youth, and $10,000 seems a small price to pay for a leg up in Shadowbane II. Otherwise it'd all just disappear into Warhammer miniatures. up their noses.
Merusk
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Reply #929 on: March 19, 2015, 04:52:54 PM

Cocaine is a social drug. If you've got $10k sitting around because you were waiting on the next great PVP mmo rather than moving on it's not going up your nose any more than it was going into Warhammer figs as that ALSO requires social interaction.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Paelos
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Reply #930 on: March 19, 2015, 06:01:55 PM

 Facepalm

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Merusk
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Reply #931 on: March 19, 2015, 06:15:07 PM

 awesome, for real

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


Reply #932 on: March 19, 2015, 08:04:31 PM

Aw man, fuck you guys.  I kinda wanna back this for Beta access.
Draegan
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Reply #933 on: March 19, 2015, 09:37:36 PM

Apparently Unity5 has some VR built into it.
Nija
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Reply #934 on: March 19, 2015, 09:50:36 PM

Anyone that backs this or gets even the tiniest tingling of hype is dead to me.

Dead to me.
Paelos
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Reply #935 on: March 20, 2015, 06:16:29 AM

Anyone that backs this or gets even the tiniest tingling of hype is dead to me.

Dead to me.

You know a lot of dead people then.

CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
Nija
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Reply #936 on: March 20, 2015, 09:02:04 AM

Stupid, annoyingly optimistic, dead motherfuckers as far as the eye can see.
Soulflame
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Reply #937 on: March 20, 2015, 09:25:55 AM

I look at it this way.  Either we get a hilarious trainwreck of a game, and a lot of PvPer tears, or we get a moderately successful game that might interest most of the people here, at least a little.

I mean, I'm leaning glorious trainwreck, the likes we haven't seen since Shadowbane, but still.  You never know.
Threash
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Reply #938 on: March 20, 2015, 09:27:33 AM

Aw man, fuck you guys.  I kinda wanna back this for Beta access.

I went for alpha 2  awesome, for real

I am the .00000001428%
Falconeer
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Reply #939 on: March 20, 2015, 10:32:48 AM

New stuff of the day is about Eternal Kingdoms. I think it's very interesting stuff, but you be the judge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czTfq1k7aAA


Quote

How do I get a Kingdom?
Every account is granted a Kingdom. They start as mini-worlds that players can use to build and explore, which can be expanded to become much larger.
 

What is the purpose of a Kingdom and why do I want one?
Kingdoms are smaller versions of the Campaign worlds – not just social lobbies. You are the Monarch of this world! You can explore, craft, build structures and even fight monsters… but a Kingdom is limited in terms of difficulty and power.
All accounts are granted a kingdom at the beginning of the game, but using it is not required (…beyond maybe a tutorial? We haven’t decided yet.)
We fully expect that some players will prefer to spend the vast majority of their time participating in the Campaign Worlds, and we intend to let them do so without maintaining a Kingdom.
 

How do Kingdoms compare to Campaign Worlds?
Kingdoms, while potentially quite large, are limited in size compared to the Campaign worlds. They are also limited in functionality and content. They start with a relatively small amount of land and no buildings. If you want to upgrade them, it will take time and effort (and materials, which come from Campaign Worlds.)
Kingdoms must be upgraded (and developed) to increase their functionality. They start as single-player realms, and must be upgraded to allow more players to join.
 

How are Kingdoms laid out, and how big are they? Is it like a housing instance?
The map of every Kingdom is divided into a square grid. Each square in the grid is called a “cell.”
Kingdoms begin as a 3 cells by 3 cells square. We’re still building this system, so the cell sizing will probably change a bit… but in the current prototype, this equates to roughly half a mile square of virtual territory.
The Kingdom can grow to be many, many times larger than this starting size.
 

Why would the size of a cell change?
At some point (soon) the size of the grid cell will be locked. At this phase in development, there are some unknowns which would affect cell size. For example: Our Mounts and Caravans Kickstarter stretch goal is about to be funded! Obviously, that system will change how quickly players can move through the World, and we’ll need to test the world size to make sure it feels right for both mounted and un-mounted players.
For now, we are estimating a cell will likely be somewhere between a quarter of a square acre and two square acres in size. Either way, even the smallest Kingdom will be much larger than a typical MMO housing instance.
 

How can I make my Kingdom larger?
It will likely take a combination of time and raw materials (stone, iron and wood) to add cells (raw square footage) to your Kingdom.
 

When I add a cell, what is it filled with?
Terrain/Land. The contents of each cell is initially “wild”, meaning that it is filled with untamed (and unusable) forest. You cannot build assets on land that is wild – and without buildings, the land has very little utility/function.
To develop one or more cells, you have to unlock it, after which you can use materials to buy “parcel deeds”. These deeds represent tracts of land that can be dropped onto your map. Parcels can have unique shapes (like Tetris pieces) that always fit within the boundaries of one or more cells. Our plan is that parcel deeds will be purchased with in-game resources.
Note: our Kickstarter backers who receive tax-free parcels with a pledge will automatically receive enough unlocked cells to place those parcels.




 
 

What size are these parcels (in cells)?
The most basic parcel is 1 cell x 1 cell, and will include very limited features.
Some parcels are much more complex, like a chain of 7 parcels that makes up a Mountain Citadel, multiple player villages, and the mountain range around it. Think of these larger areas as a complete region of a country, i.e. “I am the Lord of the Western Reach. From my Citadel, I control all of the Darkspine Moutains -- as far as the eye can see.”
Once you drop a parcel into a cell (or cells), these areas in your Kingdom will be “terraformed” and appear in your Kingdom. Using different types of parcels, you can build the World to be completely unique – the only limit is your creativity.
 

Not all Parcels are the same size, and shape?
No, but they are constructed to fit precisely within a pre-determined, contiguous set of cells. While there are many parcels that are 1x1 squares, there are multi-cell parcels that form different shapes, as well.
The Mountain Citadel, for instance, is actually a 7 square parcel that forms an “S” shape. It includes not just the Citadel, but the mountain range that surrounds it – and enough building area to construct two mountain villages.
To place this parcel in their world, a player would need to have enough cells unlocked in the appropriate shape (or larger) in which they could place the specialty “S” shaped parcel.
In order to obtain a multi cell parcel a players will be able to combine basic 1x1 parcels for specialty parcels.
 



 


Why would I want to have these larger parcels on my World?
Having a larger parcel (like a Mountain Citadel, or an Imperial Palace) added to the World is highly valuable to any Monarch, especially one who is trying to build a mercantile empire, because it offers very efficient use of build space (number of available contiguous building lots), increases the concurrent player cap of the World, and increases the Kingdom’s visibility for other players when the Kingdom is set “public”.
All of which equates to a more popular Kingdom, increased commerce and a larger potential tax base.
 

In game terms, does a larger Kingdom (with more parcels) give me an advantage?
Yes, and no.
Larger maps have more cells. More cells allows you to place more parcels. More parcels means more buildings. More buildings allow for more tenants, higher online player population caps (i.e. how many players can be on this world at any time) and better visibility when other players are browsing the Kingdom list for new markets (or Kingdoms).
All of this also means more commerce, which can generate more tax revenue.
Note, however, that these are indirect benefits – meaning social and economic benefits that you derive from other players.
However, since every Campaign World will have import rules (that determine what can be brought into the World), having a larger, more developed Kingdom will not directly impact the game balance within the Campaigns.
 

How do I collaborate with other people (like my guildmates) on a Kingdom?
The Monarch can select sub-sections of your world map (in cells) and grant that area to another player. This selection of cells is called a “Province”.
 



 


Any player who has been granted a province is considered a “noble” on that world. Nobles can drop, rearrange and remove Parcels within that Province.
 

Once I drop a Parcel, what can I do with it?
You can build on it. As the World is divided into cells, each Parcel is divided into “Lots.” You drop buildings and props onto Lots the same way you drop Parcels into cells.
You can also grant Lots to other players -- just like the World Owner granted a province to you. (In fact, we use the same system at both the micro and macro level!)
A 1x1 parcel of land is divided into many lots. On this grid of lots, some areas will be marked as “open” and others will be marked as “blocked” (meaning that you cannot place buildings there).
 

How do I drop buildings and props on my parcels?
This works the same way as dropping parcels on the World grid.
Each building or prop has a footprint in Lots. (again, think of these like Tetris pieces!)
A lot owner can place buildings and push them around to find the “right fit”. Buildings can go anywhere within the designated build area(s) of the parcel, so long as the footprint of each building is clear of other structures.

 
Are the buildings locked into pre-determined places?
No – the lots that are designated as “building areas” within each parcel are typically grouped together, to allow you to slide your buildings around. Generally, the building areas will be obvious… you can’t drop a building on top of a lake, or over the edge of a cliff.
 

What do these buildings do?
Buildings serve many purposes. They can…
Hold Artifacts and Relics (see the Artifacts and Relics FAQ for more information),
Act as crafting stations for crafting new goods,
Provide marketplaces (i.e. house player-run NPC vendors to sell crafted and collected goods),
Hold trainer thralls (who work in much the same manner as relics, providing buffs to types of passive training speeds)
Act as personal housing and social hubs
…and other services, as we think of them.
 

Can other people visit by Kingdom?
Yes, though which players can visit is a decision left up to the Monarch (owner) of that Kingdom. “Public” worlds are open to the public, meaning that anyone can visit them and trade. “Private” worlds are not open to the public. Only land owners (nobles, vassals and tenants) of the Kingdom can enter the World.
 

Can I open (or close) my Kingdom?
As the Monarch, you can change your Kingdom to be “public” or “private” any time you like.
 

Why would I make my Kingdom “public”?
Players will be able to visit those Eternal Kingdoms that are public. Players who want to create marketplace (or social hub) will want to set their Kingdom to public and create one or more attractive, easy to navigate marketplaces in that Kingdom to attract other players.


What can players do in my Kingdom?
As the Monarch, you control the administration of your Kingdom. You can set the PvP rules, collect taxes, and grant provinces to other players, making them nobles of your Kingdom. You can collect taxes in whatever form you want to from your Nobles, be it resources or materials! Hey, it’s good to be the Monarch!
As a Noble, you can grant Lots to other players, making them vassals of the Kingdom and allowing them to place buildings on your land.
As a Vassal, you can erect buildings on your Lots, and grant access to these buildings to other players as tenants.
As a Tenant, you can place relics and thralls in the buildings you have access to, using these buildings as crafting stations and market/vendor locations.
(And remember, these permissions are hierarchical in nature – a Monarch can naturally do everything that his or her subjects can do!)
 

Can I control the layout of my Kingdom?
Yes. Parcels fit together like Tetris pieces. You can arrange them however you like -- as long as the pieces fit together. You can even pick up and move the pieces, if you don’t like where they are placed.
 

What if that Guild Leader stops playing?
If the guild leader quits, you can always remove your parcels (and any buildings/improvements) and put them in a different Kingdom.

 
Can I own a house but share Admin rights?
Yes, you may add another player to the Admin list of your building making them a Tenant of the structure. This will also add them to that Kingdom’s fealty tree, allowing them to log in even if the Kingdom is set to “private.”

 
Can I own land or be a tenant on multiple different Kingdoms?
Yes, you can – but you should make sure you have the appropriate amount of land to place for the provinces you are granted. No monarch is going to want to grant provinces to Nobles who can’t put that space to good use!
 

Is there an upkeep cost on the land or buildings?
Yes. You will be required to pay taxes and maintenance to the system for the structures and land – unless you have a tax free parcel, in which case the land has no upkeep cost.
If your taxes fall into arrears, the structures on the land will begin to degrade. Once the buildings have fully degraded, they won’t disappear – you can still repair them – but the land will fall back to its “wild” state and the buildings decay to the point they are removed from the world and placed into the owner’s inventory. They will not be usable until the taxes are repaid.
 

If I invest in parcels or buildings and drop them on a World, are they locked there?  What if I change my mind and want to leave?
If you decide to leave a world – or, if you are ejected from a World by the players above you in the fealty chain -- all of your structures (and any relics or thralls placed in them) will be moved into your account bank. Parcels and Buildings can be moved easily from your account bank into a new Kingdom, once you find one.   


Threash
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Posts: 9171


Reply #940 on: March 20, 2015, 10:44:26 AM

I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

I am the .00000001428%
Merusk
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Reply #941 on: March 20, 2015, 11:17:13 AM

I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

Yeah, exactly my thought.  I suppose as a guild leader (since they have a specific "what if the GL quits" question)  you can force your people to play on your land vs. theirs. Just seems like a tool to generate strife at that point and that's ultimately not a good thing.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Malakili
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Posts: 10596


Reply #942 on: March 20, 2015, 11:40:52 AM

I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

Because just mulling around your own area is boring compared to being part of a larger community/Kingdom where there is lots going on?  I don't really have a sense of everything that is going to be in this game, so I'm not 100% sure, but it seems like these Eternal Kingdoms server as everything from player housing on the one extreme, to their own little MMO servers on the other.
EWSpider
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Reply #943 on: March 20, 2015, 12:03:29 PM

I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

Would you rather sell your wares in some dark back alley that no one traverses or the center of a bustling marketplace?

most often known as Drevik
Threash
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Posts: 9171


Reply #944 on: March 20, 2015, 12:04:12 PM

Eh, would you rather be king of your own realm or somebodies bitch?

I am the .00000001428%
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