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Author Topic: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online  (Read 79493 times)
Hutch
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on: December 23, 2014, 01:30:33 PM

Play 2 Crush (lol)

Read the press release

The names Gordon Walton and J. Todd Coleman are probably more familiar names to others here than they are to me. They have voluntarily listed Shadowbane, UO, Wizard 101, SWToR and SWG on their collective resume. I played the trial versions of Wizard 101 and ToR, but haven't played the others.

Their pitch gives the impression that they believe there's a market out there for players who want risk, skill, and open PvP in an MMO setting. I'm here to tell you they're wrong. But, I am tingly with anticipation for the inevitable popcorn festival.


Edited to change the awesome original thread title, so that the subsequently announced actual name is in there. You're welcome  why so serious?

The original title came close to taking up the size limit for titles, so I just changed the whole thing. Original title: "Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor."
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 01:06:55 PM by Hutch »

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shiznitz
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Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 01:53:08 PM

Those kind of players are out there, but only if they have a game that will feed them sheep to slaughter. Unfortunately for them, the sheep know better nowadays.

I have never played WoW.
Shannow
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Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 02:18:18 PM

The underlying game itself better be damn good so that you get enough PVErs to support the PVP pop. There IS a player base somewhere for a game like this but it's probably to small to be profitable.

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Fordel
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Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 02:33:21 PM

There are people who claim they want this kind of game, but never show up once this kind of game exists. They don't actually want this kind of game, they want the 'street cred' that saying you want this type of game supposedly gives... at least in their minds.  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Threash
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Reply #4 on: December 23, 2014, 03:22:08 PM

No they really do want that kind of game until they realize they are not that good, then they claim the game sucks.  The kind of game they actually want is God of War with the endless waves of cannon fodder being actual people.

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Threash
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Reply #5 on: December 23, 2014, 03:24:41 PM

I am fairly sure the shields at the bottom of the page were all from shadowbane.

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apocrypha
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Reply #6 on: December 23, 2014, 03:29:38 PM

Isn't this the pitch that hmm... what was it called, Darkfall, made? Haven't we been round this merry-go-round before?

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Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 03:30:36 PM

And thus speaketh the abyss... "Come join us. We all float down here."

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Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 03:31:56 PM

Yes, they are from Shadowbane and there is definitely a market for a new Shadowbane. It's a tiny one but it's there. The problem is, how much is it gonna cost to make it not suck?
The trick is to be able to make a game for that niche that will earn more than it'll cost and it doesn't suck. Players who love those game don't necessarily care about extreme graphics or animation so I think they (or anyone else) could absolutely make it work. IN THEORY. Hell, take stupid Darkfall: it did work and had a moderate success, that kind a players DID show up. And it's still alive five years later. Even Mortal Online is still alive after four years. So, can these people make a Shadowbane/UO/Eve-like game on a tight budget? That's the thing.

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Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 03:40:21 PM

The hilarity comes in when the reality of player numbers at beta/ launch hits the hype of marketing and VC pitches.

Just once there needs to be a single well-coded and well-managed game in this genre that releases to shut the hype down forever. Each one so far has had the excuses of "code was shit" or "company is incompetent" in various combinations.

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Threash
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Reply #10 on: December 23, 2014, 03:46:41 PM

The thing is Shadowbane WAS incredibly fun when it worked.  It didn't work very often so it was small islands of joy surrounded by seas of misery.  If it had been well coded and well managed it would be seen at worse as a minor success.  I never played Daoc but from what everyone says it used to be pretty solid and loads of pvp fun also.

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Venkman
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Reply #11 on: December 23, 2014, 04:04:26 PM

Huh.

But I don't know if they're leaning SB like play2crush. Shit, I don't even want to think how long ago Ubi picked up Wolfpack, and SB hasn't been a thing since even before it shut down. The more relevant stuff in Coleman's record is really Wizard101 (fantastic, for what it is) and Pirate101 (which I haven't played).

No idea what kind of game they're making. However, I highly down it's a semi open world territorial fighting persistent state world. There's, what, 100 people left in the world that want that style of PvP but not so much they're not already in DOTA2 or LoL? Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
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Reply #12 on: December 23, 2014, 04:13:40 PM

Seriously, are we going back to LOL U NO HAVE 500k USERS WOW HAS 6M U FAIL!?

These kind of games all piled together have maybe 20k, 40k users. What's wrong with those numbers? It is a NICHE. If they can make something elegant and functional with a budget aimed at those numbers, like the previously mentioned games which are arguably terrible and still are alive, they can do well and eventually expand the niche.

pxib
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Reply #13 on: December 23, 2014, 04:51:57 PM

The kind of game they actually want is God of War with the endless waves of cannon fodder being actual people.
Yes, and I still think somebody's going to figure out how to do it some day. Mostly a matter of making it fun for the cannon fodder.

In the meantime:
Quote
Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE.
This is dumb. Very few people actually want this. We only think we do because the stories in our head put us on the conquering side instead of the "nervously mining ore in a moderately risky sector" side. Play2FarmResources4PeopleWhoCrush hasn't got quite the marketing cache, even if it is a real niche.

It'd be a bigger niche if anybody knew how to make fun, high-latency online combat at that scale. Planetside's probably as close as we've come, and I wouldn't want that world even slightly more persistent.
Ghambit
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Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 08:32:41 PM

Seriously, are we going back to LOL U NO HAVE 500k USERS WOW HAS 6M U FAIL!?

These kind of games all piled together have maybe 20k, 40k users. What's wrong with those numbers? It is a NICHE. If they can make something elegant and functional with a budget aimed at those numbers, like the previously mentioned games which are arguably terrible and still are alive, they can do well and eventually expand the niche.

This.
Recall, WW2O has been consistently profitable, and it doesn't get much more niche than that.   That game still operates just fine today with plenty of support and iteration (though I disprove of Area Ops).

A very great many have said if they'd reskinned WW2O to medieval-fantasy re-added back in more consequence (either personal or territorial) that it'd be the perfect game.  I tend to agree with that statement.  If you gave me effin dragonlancers and multicrewed war elephants, I'd drop out of school.

Recall, all previous attempts with established IPs (warhammer?) have dumbed-down the design with disastrous results.

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
HaemishM
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Reply #15 on: December 24, 2014, 11:47:25 AM

These kind of games all piled together have maybe 20k, 40k users. What's wrong with those numbers?

The budget required to make the kind of game those very particular little snowflakes require is not profitable at 40k users. I'm not sure there's an MMOG out there now that could make a profit with those numbers.

sam, an eggplant
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Reply #16 on: December 24, 2014, 11:57:19 AM

Darkfall is still running just fine, charging a $15/month subscription fee.  I have no idea how many paying players the game has, but it's enough to sustain operations. Niche MMOs can work.

EVE is another great example. Completely sandbox, hardcore PvP, harsh loss penalties, and it's humming along quite nicely.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 11:58:58 AM by sam, an eggplant »
Soulflame
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Reply #17 on: December 24, 2014, 07:49:30 PM

How many people PvP in EVE?

(The figures are hard to come by.  Best I could find with an admittedly short search was numbers that showed 9% of the playerbase had scored a kill in the last quarter.)
Draegan
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Reply #18 on: December 25, 2014, 10:41:08 AM

So many wrong people in this thread. Most of you think there is no audience for the second games but cause u u and your circle of fr into don't play it. It just reinforces your incorrect opinion.

There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.
Soulflame
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Reply #19 on: December 25, 2014, 11:20:19 AM

You're wrong.

UO was a long time ago.  The sheep can play something else.  Current college age kids play on their phones, or minecraft, but not MMOs.  The fans of Shadowbane have jobs and families now.

The audience for this sort of thing are the people who think they can be Lord Crush.  The problem being, of course, is that only 15% of the playerbase can be Lord Crush, which inevitably leads to the majority heading for the exits as they find out they aren't PvP winners.

I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.
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Reply #20 on: December 25, 2014, 11:43:36 AM

I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.

Can you read? Where did anyone say millons? How is a niche ever dreaming of 'millions'? I, for example, mentioned 20k - 40k players above and I doubt Draegan was thinking much bigger than that. No Soulflame, YOU are wrong because you base your opinions on nothing but vague observations of what is popular among your group of friends, and what is talked about on the videogame info outlets you consider meaningful. Except none of that means shit when you are specifically talking about niche games made for a niche audience you clearly know nothing about. The "very few" you are talking about are more than enough to make a good product on these themes viable (different from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL), and that is, again, why some games of this kind still exist.

But you know what Soulflame, since you reeeeeally wanna talk millions, let me ask you something: DayZ -a game with full PvP and permadeath- sold 3 million copies of its ALPHA verson in a year. Now, if anyone pitched that idea to you three years ago, full PvP, full loot, permadeath, how many copies would you have predicted it could ever sell?

DayZ does not prove that there's a pool of 3 millions willing to play a new Shadowbane, but it proves that what you think you know about what people want is wrong.


There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.

Perfectly said.

Threash
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Reply #21 on: December 25, 2014, 11:57:23 AM

If there are enough people to keep that piece of shit Darkfall afloat then there are enough people for whatever this guys are making.  People love pvp, it is the consequences that make it niche.  And even then it is because they see stuff like "losing your inventory" and they think of their WoW inventory rather than the few cheap scrolls and repair money like it was in Shadowbane.

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Brolan
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Reply #22 on: December 25, 2014, 12:11:22 PM

Two ways this can work. 

1) you create NPCs who look like real players for the PvPers to feast on.  Have CS reps randomly express mock outrage after kills.

2) create a free to play experience that is compelling.  Then have paid players that can slaughter the freebies.
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Reply #23 on: December 25, 2014, 12:59:06 PM

I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.

Can you read? Where did anyone say millons? How is a niche ever dreaming of 'millions'? I, for example, mentioned 20k - 40k players above and I doubt Draegan was thinking much bigger than that. No Soulflame, YOU are wrong because you base your opinions on nothing but vague observations of what is popular among your group of friends, and what is talked about on the videogame info outlets you consider meaningful. Except none of that means shit when you are specifically talking about niche games made for a niche audience you clearly know nothing about. The "very few" you are talking about are more than enough to make a good product on these themes viable (different from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL), and that is, again, why some games of this kind still exist.

But you know what Soulflame, since you reeeeeally wanna talk millions, let me ask you something: DayZ -a game with full PvP and permadeath- sold 3 million copies of its ALPHA verson in a year. Now, if anyone pitched that idea to you three years ago, full PvP, full loot, permadeath, how many copies would you have predicted it could ever sell?

DayZ does not prove that there's a pool of 3 millions willing to play a new Shadowbane, but it proves that what you think you know about what people want is wrong.


There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.

Perfectly said.

The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.
Malakili
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Reply #24 on: December 25, 2014, 01:01:19 PM

No one will pay 15 dollars a month for anything anymore.

The whole discussion is stupid anyway.
Threash
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Reply #25 on: December 25, 2014, 01:12:37 PM

I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.

Can you read? Where did anyone say millons? How is a niche ever dreaming of 'millions'? I, for example, mentioned 20k - 40k players above and I doubt Draegan was thinking much bigger than that. No Soulflame, YOU are wrong because you base your opinions on nothing but vague observations of what is popular among your group of friends, and what is talked about on the videogame info outlets you consider meaningful. Except none of that means shit when you are specifically talking about niche games made for a niche audience you clearly know nothing about. The "very few" you are talking about are more than enough to make a good product on these themes viable (different from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL), and that is, again, why some games of this kind still exist.

But you know what Soulflame, since you reeeeeally wanna talk millions, let me ask you something: DayZ -a game with full PvP and permadeath- sold 3 million copies of its ALPHA verson in a year. Now, if anyone pitched that idea to you three years ago, full PvP, full loot, permadeath, how many copies would you have predicted it could ever sell?

DayZ does not prove that there's a pool of 3 millions willing to play a new Shadowbane, but it proves that what you think you know about what people want is wrong.


There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.

Perfectly said.

The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.

You are the only one talking about millions of players paying 15 dollar subscriptions, congrats on being right about something absolutely nobody is arguing!

I am the .00000001428%
Pennilenko
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Reply #26 on: December 25, 2014, 01:23:22 PM


The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.

I think you are really missing the point that Draegan and Falc are making. Darkfall still has its doors open. EVE still has its doors open. That invalidates your opinion that there is no market for sub based full loot pvp games. A game with proper budgeting and management goals can survive quite nicely on 20 to 40k. The only caveat is that the game has to be high quality (as in not buggy or broken).

You need to quit reading past what people are saying in this thread.

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Ginaz
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Reply #27 on: December 25, 2014, 01:49:09 PM


The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.

I think you are really missing the point that Draegan and Falc are making. Darkfall still has its doors open. EVE still has its doors open. That invalidates your opinion that there is no market for sub based full loot pvp games. A game with proper budgeting and management goals can survive quite nicely on 20 to 40k. The only caveat is that the game has to be high quality (as in not buggy or broken).

You need to quit reading past what people are saying in this thread.

Eve is a non-factor in this discussion since the vast, vast majority of players chain themselves to Hi Sec space.  The open world, full loot pvp audience is a niche in a niche wrapped in another niche.  There simply isn't a large enough market for it for anyone other than a struggling indie company to make, which is why you tend to see only hot garbage like Darkfall and Mortal Online.  The type of players that want this type of game tend to be very vocal, which is why you see the amount of discussion about it on sites like this, which is incredibly disproportionate to the actual interest in full loot pvp.  Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

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tazelbain
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Reply #28 on: December 25, 2014, 02:39:04 PM

i think some PvP+/PvP- hybrid could be a break out hit. Something like EvE with more dynamic PvP- areas and approachable theme/style. PvP+ alone is a fools errand.

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Reply #29 on: December 25, 2014, 07:09:32 PM

NO
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Reply #30 on: December 25, 2014, 07:15:40 PM

I hope they're burning their own money on this.
KallDrexx
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Reply #31 on: December 25, 2014, 07:18:31 PM

The thing with Eve is it requires an extremely heavy balance of Pvp, Pve, and economic activity options.  It also took a while for it to get to that balance, and I don't believe they even understand how they got to that current balance.

The likelyhood of a game getting that right out of the gate is pretty low (especially one without a lot of funding) and there are too many options for players today that if they don't have the balance right people will leave (people stuck out Eve through the shitty early parts because it was so unique).
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Reply #32 on: December 25, 2014, 07:24:18 PM

Eve is a non-factor in this discussion since the vast, vast majority of players chain themselves to Hi Sec space. 

A huge, huge number of people who play EVE and spend the majority of their time in Hi Sec space would have quit EVE a long time ago if they knew there is no Lo Sec space.

Ginaz
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Reply #33 on: December 25, 2014, 08:38:34 PM

Eve is a non-factor in this discussion since the vast, vast majority of players chain themselves to Hi Sec space. 

A huge, huge number of people who play EVE and spend the majority of their time in Hi Sec space would have quit EVE a long time ago if they knew there is no Lo Sec space.

It doesn't negate the fact many players never step foot in low sec or null sec space.  Most of those people would never have played Eve to begin with if they were forced to and there were no "safe" areas for them to play in.

I'll pre order you SWTOR if you let me put my lightsaber in your sarlaac cave
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Merusk
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Reply #34 on: December 25, 2014, 08:44:35 PM

It's not a question of "Is there a market for this."

It's a question of, "Will the developers budget for, plan to and understand the size of that market."

Most likely outcome? Nope. There's a history of that here. Trotting out PLAY2CRUSH 10 years later doesn't raise my hopes, either. It lowers them.

Then, in 4-5 years after the explosion, when this cycle happens again, we'll see the same arguments. The game was coded poorly, the game didn't understand the market. The game could have been epic If Only.  If. If. If.

Also, since subs are dead, we're likely to have a nice heaping of, "There was too much Paywall bullshit in the way. "

PVP is a thing and it's always been popular in computer games. Since the first DOOM and QUAKE deathmatches and the MUDS before them.  What they've all had in common is fast in, fast out games where the only real loss is what happened over that game session.

Start tying in long-term stats, equipment games and profiles and you get something different. People expect not to lose their session gains, only to lose matches. That's more like your traditional MMO and doesn't work well at all with permadeth and full loot. Not if you're aiming at a big audience.

Aim at 40-100k? Sure, go for it. There's a niche there you can run with. Too bad egos and investors expect more.

I can't get past the panties - Alluvian
I really like the cocks. - Lantyssa
People rarely believe just how good I am at sucking. - Lantyssa
I love the swinging dongs - Signe
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