Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online

[Malakili]

I think the point is less about that and more about the unpredictability of your session.  Imagining the best case scenario for that kind of caravan thing is great and would be a fun time.  But the question is how many times when I do that thing is it actually fun compared to how many times it is boring and/or frustrating.

[Paelos]

I think the point is less about that and more about the unpredictability of your session.  Imagining the best case scenario for that kind of caravan thing is great and would be a fun time.  But the question is how many times when I do that thing is it actually fun compared to how many times it is boring and/or frustrating.

Same can be said of any game element. The devil is in the details of the experience.

PvP purests might tell you that it's not fun unless they are actively involved in killing whenever and whereever they log in. Objectives are meaningless to them and get in the way.

But I'm not sure that type of player is anywhere near the majority of MMO players, even in PVP games. Many people like the idea of taking objectives and advancing a team, regardless of how often they are attacked. If you make protecting caravans interesting, beyond just relying solely on other players to attack them to make it interesting?

You have to have stuff for both types of players. The objective players are solved pretty simply because you can create those. The pvp purists itching for constant fights are a little harder because in open world games you have to go find the fight. That was always an issue in DAOC. Eventually there just become agreed upon places to fight, but that's not ideal.

[Merusk]

Poor implementation can ruin anything. That's a given. It practically goes without saying, but I guess we're saying it again.

I don't see anything they are promising that strikes me as tough to implement other than the procedural part. In normal pvp games you acquire gear and that lasts you forever as you assrape people until the next set of gear. In this game, you're being dropped naked into a new land every month or so. I can see that being much more fun since the game keeps resetting you to a degree back to your regular space.

Guarding caravans sounds like a time/reward thing. If there's little risk of attack, fewer people will do it. If there's more, more people will do it. The risk of an attack usually determines what people do in these games, and where those attacks will occur.

Also I think there's plenty of people who don't play EVE specifically because it's in space.

The game isn't promising to be fully PVP and reset every month for all sectors from what I saw.  It looks like there's a PVE-as-retreat space that remains unchanged every cycle.  However, but you need to venture into the hostile spaces for resources because there are none in 'heaven.'  Not even the small amount that can be farmed at server restart in Eve.

That, I think, will limit things more than Eve and limit the player base even more.  Sure, you have a safe zone, but it's worthless for more than keeping things in.  As a PVE player I have no interest in it. You're forcing me into a game space I don't want to partake in.  

You're also limiting my ability to act as a lone agent. Yeah, Raph, you've harped for years on the "why play an MMO if you want to be alone" thing.  Because I want the interactive, living world. At most I'll accept passive interactions like Auction houses or SWG's vendors.  I don't want to interact with people, it's legit tiring to me.  I'm an introvert who works better alone than having to interact with and treat with other people. Even if I have to work three times as long I have the mental energy for that more than I do interacting with even one other person.

Actually PAY ATTENTION to some of those sociology books you've read. If you're choosing to ignore the "I" folks of Briggs-Meyers then you'll find you're already severly limiting your market.  Because it's mostly *I* folks who play video games. *E* folks go out and do shit IRL.

[Paelos]

I think you're arguing against forced grouping more than anything. I don't see how the lobby limits anything.

[Merusk]

Forced grouping is *part* of it. Forced PVP is the other part of it.

From the Kickstarter:

Eternal Kingdoms:
Risk: set by player monarch  Resources: Severely Limited

These player-owned and player-managed kingdoms are the only permanent (non-time limited) Worlds. They are complete, functional Worlds - but lack resource factories (such as quarries, mines and mills) and produce only common reagents. Players rule these Home Worlds as Monarchs and can grant land and titles to other players in exchange for oaths of fealty. Levy taxes, enforce trade restrictions, and set the PvP rules within your domain.

The Infected
Risk: Low   Resources: Limited   Reward: Victor Keeps 70%, loser keeps 30%
The proving grounds for Order, Balance, and Chaos. Players join one of three divine Factions and battle for control of the World. The goal for Order and Chaos is to capture as much territory as possible before the World is destroyed. The goal for Balance is to ensure there in no clear victor between Order and Chaos.

So, to gather resources beyond the very basic & common ones you have to PVP or interact with other folks. That turns me off the game straight away.  While I'm not adverse to PvP I don't want to do it most of the time. If  my good resources are limited that's one thing. If I'm cut off from them entirely it's another. Particularly not in an MMO as FPS offer a more even playing field (even though my skills suck) than "oh, you didn't invest enough time to get excellent gear. Sux2bu, you can NEVER win this fight. Not even if you get the drop on Mr. Leetpants."

[Paelos]

OK well yeah the game's not for you. I think that's fine because PvP games rarely are for everyone.

You can't have the good resources in non-pvp areas in a pvp game. There has to be incentives for people to get out in the world and fight each other.

[Threash]

Yeah it s a pvp game, not a game with pvp but a game were the main gameplay is based around pvp.  If that is not what you are looking for then this is definitely not the game you want.

[Falconeer]

We have to remember that this game is not for Merusk, and basically it's not for 95% of the player base of any game, because they are not aiming for that audience. They don't want that people's money. We shouldn't forget that we have started the conversation about this and similar games from the assumption that these kind of games are super niche and there is a critical "mass" of about 40k concurrent players at any given time. At best. So yes, it's *NOT FOR* a lot of people. And if it pleased the PvE crowd or the solo crowd then it wouldn't be niche anymore and some of the people in this thread excited about it... would be not and would have not pledged. Hell, I dare to say that if it had some of the things Merusk is advocating for it would not be making the money it's making, because there's plenty of those other games already.

In short, leave the niche alone and leave the first "big niche" project in a long time alone. It'll have plenty of chances to hang itself with its own rope, but let's not start by transforming it into literally every other game.

[tazelbain]

But what I don't get is why. They are ready baking multi-rule-sets into the Core, so why not make rule-sets that include 95%?

[Threash]

Because that would be a whole different game that's already been done over and over again?

[Falconeer]

Because that's Trammel, and it has already killed one game in the past. No need to repeat the experience. And even if it shouldn't, it ends up fragmenting the playerbase. Lots of people hanging out in the "safe" areas until they are confident or skilled enough (that's what they tell themselves), only to never make the move and starving the PvP areas.
There's plenty of Trammel games out there, as Threash said. Putting one in here would only attract the wrong kind of customers, which would be good at first but would create "cultural" and shattering disagreements soon enough and would be very bad in the mid and long run.

If they keep it to this untapped niche, they have a chance to make it happy and a profit. If they try to appease everyone, they would piss off everyone.

[Draegan]

In Todd's brain, this is how it will go down:

Quarry will "pop" a bunch of minerals.
Everyone will know about it.
You can race to get there, kill people mining it, get there first and defend people mining it.
Extract ore, put it in carts and then wheel it back to home base to use to make stuff.
PVP happens at any point. They are essentially making hotspots of action.

[Ingmar]

/checks to see if UO still exists

Looks like it does.

[Draegan]

Poor implementation can ruin anything. That's a given. It practically goes without saying, but I guess we're saying it again.

I don't see anything they are promising that strikes me as tough to implement other than the procedural part. In normal pvp games you acquire gear and that lasts you forever as you assrape people until the next set of gear. In this game, you're being dropped naked into a new land every month or so. I can see that being much more fun since the game keeps resetting you to a degree back to your regular space.

Guarding caravans sounds like a time/reward thing. If there's little risk of attack, fewer people will do it. If there's more, more people will do it. The risk of an attack usually determines what people do in these games, and where those attacks will occur.

Also I think there's plenty of people who don't play EVE specifically because it's in space.

The game isn't promising to be fully PVP and reset every month for all sectors from what I saw.  It looks like there's a PVE-as-retreat space that remains unchanged every cycle.  However, but you need to venture into the hostile spaces for resources because there are none in 'heaven.'  Not even the small amount that can be farmed at server restart in Eve.

That, I think, will limit things more than Eve and limit the player base even more.  Sure, you have a safe zone, but it's worthless for more than keeping things in.  As a PVE player I have no interest in it. You're forcing me into a game space I don't want to partake in.  

You're also limiting my ability to act as a lone agent. Yeah, Raph, you've harped for years on the "why play an MMO if you want to be alone" thing.  Because I want the interactive, living world. At most I'll accept passive interactions like Auction houses or SWG's vendors.  I don't want to interact with people, it's legit tiring to me.  I'm an introvert who works better alone than having to interact with and treat with other people. Even if I have to work three times as long I have the mental energy for that more than I do interacting with even one other person.

Actually PAY ATTENTION to some of those sociology books you've read. If you're choosing to ignore the "I" folks of Briggs-Meyers then you'll find you're already severly limiting your market.  Because it's mostly *I* folks who play video games. *E* folks go out and do shit IRL.

The "safe space" is where your guild house/player house is and you chill there in between campaigns. But the campaigns, with different rules sets, is the meat of the game.

[Merusk]

Yeah, broke off into my own reasons not to play somewhere in there. I know the game's not for me already.   Forced grouping and forced PVP aren't my thing.

I was trying to focus on the whole, "Look, game requires social interaction to even attempt to play." part of it. I think that's going to limit its success but who knows. I was totally wrong about Landmark faceplanting.  

Also, for a group of guys who hates guilds and other people so much that F13 guilds don't last longer than a few months, I'm surprised at the reception here.  (No, Eve doesn't count because those folks don't interact with the rest of the board anymore.)

[tazelbain]

I get it, Specialshowfall.

[Paelos]

Yeah, broke off into my own reasons not to play somewhere in there. I know the game's not for me already.   Forced grouping and forced PVP aren't my thing.

I was trying to focus on the whole, "Look, game requires social interaction to even attempt to play." part of it. I think that's going to limit its success but who knows. I was totally wrong about Landmark faceplanting.  

Also, for a group of guys who hates guilds and other people so much that F13 guilds don't last longer than a few months, I'm surprised at the reception here.  (No, Eve doesn't count because those folks don't interact with the rest of the board anymore.)

I hate PVE guilds because it's all drama and bullshit trying to collect better drops and worrying about dps. Some of the best guilds I've been in for gaming were PvP guilds. Because they care about totally different types of things and teamwork. In my experience they will usually generally try to help other people and work together than go all fucking drama queen over rosters and drops and policy.

Now is that across the board? No there are assholes anywhere. But I've encountered a lot more carebear assholes than the other side.

EDIT: Oh and schedules. I hate gaming on a schedule and in pve it's impossible not to. In pvp you grab people and go.

[Malakili]

It depends on the game honestly.  In EVE the officers all had each others phone numbers in case people needed to get up in the middle of the night.  I mean,  I guess, technically, that doesn't count as a schedule, but 

[Samwise]

I hope one of the tiers is some tubing and a box of mason jars to capture your tears.

 

[Paelos]

Sure in pvp you have some of the wake up and it's gone factor. That's the downside.

[Rendakor]

Yeah, broke off into my own reasons not to play somewhere in there. I know the game's not for me already.   Forced grouping and forced PVP aren't my thing.

I was trying to focus on the whole, "Look, game requires social interaction to even attempt to play." part of it. I think that's going to limit its success but who knows. I was totally wrong about Landmark faceplanting.  

Also, for a group of guys who hates guilds and other people so much that F13 guilds don't last longer than a few months, I'm surprised at the reception here.  (No, Eve doesn't count because those folks don't interact with the rest of the board anymore.)

I don't hate guilds, I just usually game with a different core of people than f13.

Regarding the "defend the caravan thing," Arche Age showed that it can be a lot of fun. Doing trade runs across the ocean and/or ganking those doing same was the best part of that game; if they can capture some of that feeling here without the KRNG hell of AA's crafting I'm fucking sold.

[Sophismata]

I was sort of tempted by this, but the stretch goals left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Paelos]

I was sort of tempted by this, but the stretch goals left a bad taste in my mouth.

You think they are going to fire Eric too? 

[Teleku]

Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

This sums up the main hurdle this sort of game needs to overcome rather succinctly. 

Eve seems to be doing ok with literally that exact game play.

[Malakili]

Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

This sums up the main hurdle this sort of game needs to overcome rather succinctly. 

Eve seems to be doing ok with literally that exact game play.

"The Zerg" is Eve is an entirely different beast than it is in these sorts of games due to the way travel time works.  I can't recall ever being ambushed by "the zerg" in Eve the way you could be descended upon in DAoC or Warhammer Online, etc.

Also, usually those "caravans" in Eve are things that actually belong to your group, not just an NPC thing you guard/deliver.  Protecting your own haulers or miners is a lot more rewarding than completing a task that conveniently goes through enemy territory to spur  PvP.  I'm not saying Crowfall has no chance of getting it right.  I am just saying the fact that Eve has burrowed out a little niche for itself doesn't mean that those gameplay patterns are always going to work.

[tmp]

"The Zerg" is Eve is an entirely different beast than it is in these sorts of games due to the way travel time works.  I can't recall ever being ambushed by "the zerg" in Eve the way you could be descended upon in DAoC or Warhammer Online, etc.

Gate camps are standard part of EVE experience outside of safe space; very much the same deal and yes, they can pull off an ambush as well, if they actually feel like it (if they generally don't it's because basic camp works well enough)

[Malakili]

"The Zerg" is Eve is an entirely different beast than it is in these sorts of games due to the way travel time works.  I can't recall ever being ambushed by "the zerg" in Eve the way you could be descended upon in DAoC or Warhammer Online, etc.

Gate camps are standard part of EVE experience outside of safe space; very much the same deal and yes, they can pull off an ambush as well, if they actually feel like it (if they generally don't it's because basic camp works well enough)

I'm well aware of gate camps.  My point is that "the zerg" doesn't strike me as something I've seen in Eve, particularly because players aren't really organized by NPC factions.  That prevents a lot of the "just join up with 25 other random people running around this PvP zone in a relatively unorganized fashion ganking stuff" gameplay that I associate with "the zerg."  Even something as simple as a gate camp has more coordination and planning involved.

[Rendakor]

Also, usually those "caravans" in Eve are things that actually belong to your group, not just an NPC thing you guard/deliver.  Protecting your own haulers or miners is a lot more rewarding than completing a task that conveniently goes through enemy territory to spur  PvP.  I'm not saying Crowfall has no chance of getting it right.  I am just saying the fact that Eve has burrowed out a little niche for itself doesn't mean that those gameplay patterns are always going to work.

That seems to be the intent here, just like ArcheAge. From the KS update:

When you raid a quarry and secure a palette of Stone, getting that material back to your stronghold to it -- or to scavenge it for your Eternal Kingdom -- will be a major strategic challenge!

The core module assumes that players will be schlepping these items back and forth in their inventory. That's workable, sure, but it's not nearly as cool as using MOUNTS and CARTS to move those items!

Nothing in that suggests that you'll be guarding NPC caravans; you'll be defending your friends/guilds' materials.

[Malakili]

I can live with that, then.

[Sophismata]

I was sort of tempted by this, but the stretch goals left a bad taste in my mouth.

You think they are going to fire Eric too?  

Stretch goals amounting to "we hire more staff" trouble me. As does feature creep.

In general, what I prefer to see is a plan that someone needs money to execute on, not "half a plan that will only become a complete plan if you pay us more than we are asking for".

The fact that they didn't have (for example) quality SFX assets planned is worrying. What else are they not planning that I would assume should be part of the experience they are promising?

[Falconeer]

I agree. I would love for this to have NO stretch goals since it's obvious that they need all the money for what is already planned. Stretch goals are the scammiest part of Kickstarters like these.

[Malakili]

You have to wonder if all of this is just planned from the beginning and they assume it will be better for the buzz surrounding the project if they low ball it, then add in all the stuff they wanted to do anyway as "stretch goals" so it looks like the thing is overperforming instead of just barely meeting the base goal.

[HaemishM]

So "Molyneux-ing" then? 

[Malakili]

Isn't that the opposite of what he does?  He promises everything up front and then can never live up to even his most basic promises.

[HaemishM]

Well, his Kickstarter approach was to ask for less than he knew he needed so it would be successful, knowing the stretch goals were likely utter horseshit.