Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online

[Falconeer]

They say it is buy to play. Then Premium services will be available but subscription won't be mandatory.

[Threash]

The b2p account can train 1 general and 1 archtype skill at a time, the vip accounts are 1 and 3 or 2 and 2, not sure.

[ezrast]

I think they specified that it was 1 and 3 somewhere. So subscribers will be able to train up three classes at a time, but won't gain power with any individual class faster than the rest of us.

[Draegan]

Whether will play is good able enough will depend on how the day to day gameplay is. No one knows what that is yet.

[Segoris]

Whether will play is good able enough will depend on how the day to day gameplay is. No one knows what that is yet.

Were you having a stroke writing the first part of that post?

But yeah, when players are the content then day to day gameplay matters more than it does in other games since there's not really other systems to hide shitty gameplay behind. At least ACE seems to be listening to playatesters, so that's nice.

[Pennilenko]

Whether will play is good able enough will depend on how the day to day gameplay is. No one knows what that is yet.

Heh, that is almost meme worthy.

[palmer_eldritch]

They claim they're going to be selling the game for $50 so I may put down $69 for the package that gives beta access and a copy of the game . . . even though I know it will go free to play after six months anyway.

Looking at the alpha videos, it's striking how much more polished it seems than Camelot Unchained even at such a basic and early stage.

[Teleku]

Yep. You're going to find a lot of people coming to that realization, too. Even back in the Shadowbane days I was "casual" and I was sticking 5-8 hours a night into the game.

The quote I had back then was something like, "You don't have to be the best to win open PVP games. You just have to play an hour longer than your opponent."

Ehhh, nobody knows how things will actually shake out at this point, but at least with the skill system they announced, its much more casual friendly.  Log in for a minute every few nights to set your skill queue, logout.  You are leveling/grinding/advancing your character at the same speed the guy who spends 20 hours in game is.  That should take away a lot of the pressure to spend hours grinding away right there.

After that, if your in some big guild that announces when they are doing ops; it shouldn't be hard to login for 2-3 hours to have some PvP, then get out.  That's how it worked in Eve, which can also be the biggest time sink catass game ever invented (it you want it to be).  And I imagine it should be MUCH easier to jump into a big fight in this sort of game than it is with the way Eve is setup, so probably even quicker.

But again, what the final game looks like will determine that.  What they are announcing so far though looks very promising however.  Appealing to both Casuals and Hardcore in a way nobody else seems to have tried yet.

[Merusk]

That statement was never about player advancement. It's about making sure your shit doesn't get destroyed while you're away. That's the only definition of winning in a persistent pvp mmo.

[Rendakor]

Casual players by definition don't care about the persistent stuff; they just want a good fight. Feeling like they're contributing to their [guild/faction/whatever] is a nice bonus but these aren't the people with alarms waking them up every 2 hours to check Travian.

[Teleku]

That statement was never about player advancement. It's about making sure your shit doesn't get destroyed while you're away. That's the only definition of winning in a persistent pvp mmo.

As I said, if your in some big guild, you can just login for a big fight as long as you want, then log out.  Other cat asses will handle all the organization and making sure shit doesn't get burned down in at 4 AM.  This is exactly how it plays out in Eve, and there is no reason to believe it can't work the same way here.  Being in a small guild trying to hold a town that can get attacked..... well, then you'll probably need to be a little more hardcore then.

Having said that, how they choose to handle sieges and town destruction will be a big factor in all this, and the wrong decision could fuck things up.  So, guess we'll wait and see.  

[Falconeer]

Not sure this fits here but I feel like refraining something I've been saying (and looking forward to) for a while and that is relevant to any Play2crush conversation.

If you take a look at the Steam stats, you can see that there are 2 games in the top 11 most played games at any given time. Ark and Rust. They sold respectively 2.5 million boxes and 3.2 million boxies. With DayZ that has sold 3.4 million boxes. That's more than 9 million sales. But sales don't matter much. Let's see who is playing...

Ark and Rust together make up for about 110k concurrent players online at peak times, and we are talking about two games which feature full loot PvP and fully destructible bases when you are offline. If we add the third game of that kind that is closer to the top, H1Z1, which is in 20th place, you get to almost 150k players online at the same time looking for games with the most ferocious and unforgiving "meaningful" PvP in existence. If you want to go deeper and put together other games with significant numbers, you have to add another 25k between DayZ and Hurtworld. And this is all without counting the multitude of minor ones, which still account for a few thousands, and of course EVE, which has a lot although not all of the same elements.

This started three years ago and it has been growing steadily. Not bad for a genre and a playstyle that a lot said it couldn't ever gather even a measly 30k players.

Bottom line: there's almost 200k concurrent players online every day splitting themselves over games with slightly different engines and settings, but all sharing a few elements, and basically just Playing2Crush:

- Multiplayer only
- Persistently Online
- With persistent housing
- With full loot PvP
- With fully lootable and destructible (other players') buildings
- With close to NO PvE
- With no quests
- With no safe zones
- With a box cost
- With no subscription

Some of us might be too old to take part, but Felucca has never been healthier. Not even in 1998.

[Merusk]

Yes, 142k out of 2.5 million players for the top 20 games. That's 5.6%, less than the 'peak' of Play2Crush as a percentage.

That statement was never about player advancement. It's about making sure your shit doesn't get destroyed while you're away. That's the only definition of winning in a persistent pvp mmo.

As I said, if your in some big guild, you can just login for a big fight as long as you want, then log out.  Other cat asses will handle all the organization and making sure shit doesn't get burned down in at 4 AM.  This is exactly how it plays out in Eve, and there is no reason to believe it can't work the same way here.  Being in a small guild trying to hold a town that can get attacked..... well, then you'll probably need to be a little more hardcore then.

Yes, that's exactly what I expect to play out. However it's been pretty typical that casuals-need-not-apply to large guilds. Wasn't that what Goonswarm broke ground on in the first place? The very idea that a 'pleb' could play2crush along with the big boys? Skills trained offline, but getting the funds to be able to buy and field ships took money and that took game-time.

So what also makes a difference is how much time it takes to get gear for your 'vessel' to be at a viable point. Whatever 'viable' winds up being in the metagame. If it's the old UO style where folks can be ganking with commons and safeguard super-legendaries for special events, great. If it's like Eve where it takes 4-5 hours per death to recover, then that's gonna suck hard on the "two hour a night" folks.

Now maybe a new game will create groups that follow the same paradigm rather than mandating #of hours online for being able to participate. However, gamers being who they are personality-wise I have my doubts.

[Falconeer]

More stuff, this time on how they are gonna inject some SWG in the mix:

[Threash]

Some of us might be too old to take part, but Felucca has never been healthier. Not even in 1998.

That's an incredibly good and extremely surprising point.

[Tmon]

I think the low to no PVE is a key, everybody who joins one of those games knows they are part of the content.  When almost everything you have ultimately comes from the body of another player being fully lootable yourself isn't a huge problem.  I imagine that low information buyers who get the game thinking they can just live in the world and be left alone to craft buildings and what not leave the game fairly quickly.

[Rendakor]

I think the low to no PVE is a key, everybody who joins one of those games knows they are part of the content.  When almost everything you have ultimately comes from the body of another player being fully lootable yourself isn't a huge problem.  I imagine that low information buyers who get the game thinking they can just live in the world and be left alone to craft buildings and what not leave the game fairly quickly.

I disagree with your last sentence; the stuff Falc just posted talking about SWG seems to imply that you'll be perfectly capable of just crafting if you want.

[Merusk]

Not without the consequences of logging into a FFAPVP environment, which is what will drive away a number of the folks who think that way.

Unless they change the prior statements about rare and exotic materials/ crafted items not being able to leave the FFA PVP zones. If they do that then you'll have plenty of craft drones available. Not being able to make "the best stuff" without being exposed to PVP++ is what kept me from being interested in the first place.

[palmer_eldritch]

In Eve you need to get materials for high end items from the free-for-all PvP areas (eg mining mercoxit, mining many moon materials and getting stuff from wormholes). However, the people who gather materials are generally not the people who actually use them. Instead, materials are usually exported to safe space where the actual production takes place. Finished items (eg spaceships and components) are usually sold in safe space too, sometimes to people who then transport them back to the PvP areas to be used.

So you can do your dangerous deep space mining operations or wormhole explanation, and guilds can conquer space and make use of the resources (which means mining moons). But there are also industrialists living in safe space who are making items and watching the market and buying and stockpiling resources and all the stuff they enjoy doing.

It would be cool if they did something similar here.

[Rendakor]

The real crux will be how safe cities will be. If they are safe zones, then you'll be able to have crafter-only players. If people are regularly getting ganked and looted in the streets of Ironforge, not so much. I didn't think the game was going to be THAT hardcore, though.

[Threash]

I'm fairly sure there are no safe zones in campaigns.  Also crafters are supposed to be necessary and in high demand, and since this is b2p there is that entry cost to shunt them to an alt account.

[Merusk]

Correct. Go back through the early part of the thread. High end mats can't go back to safe zones unlike eve. Also there are no safe zones in the campaigns, that's only at the "your plot" level and as above the high quality stuff can't be moved there, unless that's been changed.

The sheep must be willing to be preyed upon to partake of the best stuff.

[Segoris]

When was it ever said high end mats can't go back to safe zones? The last thing I saw (which was when exporting items back to EKs was first introduced) was a video or post saying that someone could purely be a crafter in their EK as long as they had people providing them materials. Also, the Crowfall Wiki says nothing about rare mats not being able to be brought from the campaign to an EK. Only that the amount of materials can be limited based on a few factors of the player's contribution to a campaign to avoid people joining in the end on a winning side and loading up on easy resources in vast amounts. That is how I remember it always being explained as well.

Also, people are mentioning that other players can destroy what a player builds, they are just talking about in campaigns right? Seeing that is a big part of the pvp and siege mechanics. Other players can't go into another player's EK and destroy what's built there.

[Tmon]

When was it ever said high end mats can't go back to safe zones? The last thing I saw (which was when exporting items back to EKs was first introduced) was a video or post saying that someone could purely be a crafter in their EK as long as they had people providing them materials. Also, the Crowfall Wiki says nothing about rare mats not being able to be brought from the campaign to an EK. Only that the amount of materials can be limited based on a few factors of the player's contribution to a campaign to avoid people joining in the end on a winning side and loading up on easy resources in vast amounts. That is how I remember it always being explained as well.

Also, people are mentioning that other players can destroy what a player builds, they are just talking about in campaigns right? Seeing that is a big part of the pvp and siege mechanics. Other players can't go into another player's EK and destroy what's built there.

The stuff you build in the EK is safe, anything brought into or built in a campaign world is subject to its rules.  A dev post I read recently mentioned that a crafter who never left the EK could still end up with a top of the line vessel simply by trading for the mats to make one.

[Threash]

When was it ever said high end mats can't go back to safe zones? The last thing I saw (which was when exporting items back to EKs was first introduced) was a video or post saying that someone could purely be a crafter in their EK as long as they had people providing them materials. Also, the Crowfall Wiki says nothing about rare mats not being able to be brought from the campaign to an EK. Only that the amount of materials can be limited based on a few factors of the player's contribution to a campaign to avoid people joining in the end on a winning side and loading up on easy resources in vast amounts. That is how I remember it always being explained as well.

Also, people are mentioning that other players can destroy what a player builds, they are just talking about in campaigns right? Seeing that is a big part of the pvp and siege mechanics. Other players can't go into another player's EK and destroy what's built there.

The stuff you build in the EK is safe, anything brought into or built in a campaign world is subject to its rules.  A dev post I read recently mentioned that a crafter who never left the EK could still end up with a top of the line vessel simply by trading for the mats to make one.

Trading what? There is nothing in the EK's except very low level mats.

[Segoris]

The stuff you build in the EK is safe, anything brought into or built in a campaign world is subject to its rules.  A dev post I read recently mentioned that a crafter who never left the EK could still end up with a top of the line vessel simply by trading for the mats to make one.

Yeah, that's accurate with what I've read. I just misread this thread thinking people were commenting that anything they build was destructible, but I just missed where they did mention that was for during campaigns which is correct.

Trading what? There is nothing in the EK's except very low level mats.

Trading goods they've made using low level mats for higher level mats, then do the same with those higher tier mats. Devs had even said that while it's possible to go this route, it's faster to get involved in the campaigns or be in a guild that will funnel mats to the crafter.

[Merusk]

The EKs will matter if the campaigns that let you bring in pre-made gear are popular. If everyone only plays in the FFA, full loot, no bringing gear in worlds then there's no point in having a fancy crafting paradise EK because the shit you make there means fuckall.

Went looking for the info and found the above quote on P29. I had it backwards. You can flow good stuff INTO but not OUT of EKs.

Same end result, crafters must be in PVP+ zones to matter. Otherwise they get to sit in EKs robbing the PVPers blind.

Also they'd be laughing a lot because the BIG crafters would be attached to the biggest guilds. Therefore you're funding your killers.

[Threash]

I don't care what they say, if you don't like pvp you should really not even be looking at this game.

[palmer_eldritch]

How much I like PvP depends a lot on how much dying hurts. Having said that, even losing all my gear might be okay if it's easy to replace.

It sounds possible that life in a full loot world will be a lot easier if you are part of a well-organised guild with crafters who are set up to replace your stuff.

[Falconeer]

Rust is a good example of an evolved pre-Trammel UO (with all the differences of setting and 3D vs 2D):

Losing everything is SUPER easy. You can work for days on building immense bases, then wake up in the morning and everything valuable is gone. They did a good job by making it so your walls will still be there since it's too much of a hassle (and a resource drain) for the assailants to blow up everything. So it's easy to "fix" and improve your broken base without having to start from scratch, but all your stashed loot is gonna be gone as there are zero safe containers. When that happens, and it does all the time, it really sucks. At the same time though, assuming you want to get back on your feet and retort, that's pretty easy to do too. One would think a game like this has no chances, wolves and sheeps and blah blah and solo players and double blah. And yet it works and sheep keep playing hoping one day to become wolves or at least to prey on someone else, or even play "good guys" like me and my friend, righting the wasteland one wrong at a time.

Obviously Crowfall has much more going on for it. There are goals (winning the campaigns), and character progression, which would make the game more bearable even when you "lose everything". But yes I agree with Palmer, it is vital that the power curve is somewhat shallower compared to other MMORPG, both when it comes to character progression and gear too. Fortunately, this is something they have stated multiple times, and if they'll hold true to it that would be a big step in the right direction. Limited power for items and charcters and decay on everything are fundamental staples of the game they are trying to make. Yet it is too soon to tell how Crowfall will be and I think that it's kind of ridiculous that we try to hold them accountable to statements made in the early planning of the game or even early stages of development like now. Because we all know too well that they can and would/will change it all whenever they want, even post release. So we are just speculating based on wishes (or anti-wishes) hopes and some weak declarations of intent, and wait and see is the only possible approach at this point.

What I believe is that they will make vast use of the different server rulesets to guarantee everyone* (*caveat: that is into PvP centered MMOs) will be able to carve some space for themselves. Even though the niche they are making the game for is growing, they have an interest in keeping all sorts of PvP players under their umbrella not just the most hardcore, and that's what the very different rulesets with their import/export rules (the stuff you can bring in and out of every server at the beginning and end of a campaign) are for.

I know they said that they want to give players the chance to be nothing but a crafter safe in their Eternal Kingdom doing nothing but crafting and becoming famous like that, and they go as far as mentioning the SWG entertainers which were the antithesis of PvP. We will see how that pans out. But to me that's an acceptable compromise: while I expect Crowfall to be completely devoted to PvP and built around it, I don't think it takes anything away from that to have some players living behind the trenches and in the safety of their castles (The Eternal Kingdoms) minding only the crafting and other sandbox aspects thanks to the materials and resources given them by their fighting friends. In short, crafters will be able to become awesome at crafting without ever fighting, but they will not have a cance to do that without friends doing the fighting for them.

Bottom lines (based on assumptions and the little we know now. Subject to change.):

- Crowfall will NOT force people to play a high stakes PvP all the time as you can just be a crafter in a safe zone. But if you don't like PvP you probably shouldn't play anyway as the economy will revolve around it.

- (Because of that) Crowfall will force players to socialize as you will always depend on other players for every activity. "Solo" will just not be much of a viable playstyle. While there could be some workaround for the more stubborn ones, if that's your favourite playstyle you probably should stay away.

You don't like this? Too bad, play something else.

Now, it would be easy to say that this is a mistake, but it's all about what audience you are trying to reach considering you can't reach everyone. Clearly, the Crowfall people would be happy with those 50k concurrent players and as I demonstrated in my statistics post above, that's a very realistic goal in a time like this and even more realistic now than when we started this thread only a year ago.

[Merusk]

I don't care what they say, if you don't like pvp you should really not even be looking at this game.

Agreed, but hey people are stupid. Doesn't mean they need to change their goal, only be prepared to call the stupid out on it.

[Draegan]

The EKs will matter if the campaigns that let you bring in pre-made gear are popular. If everyone only plays in the FFA, full loot, no bringing gear in worlds then there's no point in having a fancy crafting paradise EK because the shit you make there means fuckall.

Went looking for the info and found the above quote on P29. I had it backwards. You can flow good stuff INTO but not OUT of EKs.

Same end result, crafters must be in PVP+ zones to matter. Otherwise they get to sit in EKs robbing the PVPers blind.

Also they'd be laughing a lot because the BIG crafters would be attached to the biggest guilds. Therefore you're funding your killers.

Campaign bands have different rules. Some allow you to bring stuff in and out. Some allow nothing.

[Slayerik]

I went from doubtful to cautiously optimistic.

[Falconeer]

More on vessels and corpse... corpse looting.

MMORPG: With the notion of player bodies being fully lootable objects, does that mean a player will "lose" their chosen looks for their character if they lose their vessel on the more hardcore campaign worlds?
J. Todd Coleman: You mean in the situation where the vessel is lost (or destroyed completely)?
Well, yes -- I should make it clear, however, that you would have to knowingly put yourself into a situation where that could happen. Complete vessel loss will be limited to the most dangerous (and, of course, most lucrative) areas of the game.

MMORPG: When someone "scavenges" a new body as a crow, how does that work exactly? Is it basically a character creation process, with some snazzy animations of your crow digging?
JTC: The scavenging part will happen in the 3D world -- it's really part of the exploration loop: you explore the world and find a tomb or a graveyard and find the new vessel(s). At this point, you haven't really initiated character creation -- the vessel is just a (rather large and unwieldy) inventory object. It can be picked up, moved, traded, use as a crafting reagent... all the things you would expect from an item that you find in the world.
Once you have acquired the object, there are a number of ways you can use it. You can possess it, of course, or you can break it down ("scavenge" it for parts) to use in crafting other items. You can also use these raw materials to modify or improve your current vessel (assuming you have the correct skills). We added this last one because some players want to have that traditional feeling of attachment to a single character, and never lose it. Allowing players to scavenger parts from more rare vessels and upgrade their current one gives a way to stay competitive with the same character.

MMORPG: Can players switch between their chosen bodies at will, since they're inventory items? They just equip and unequip like a suit of armor?
JTC: No, there is some friction involved in changing vessels, it's not something that you can do instantaneously.

MMORPG: With the account keeping track of all your skills, how do the vessels (bodies) have their stats determined? Is it sheer RNG, or is that where crafting comes in?
JTC: Skills are tracked at the account level. If you spend a lifetime training with two-handed blades, your immortal soul carries that residual knowledge into every new life. (In game terms, this means that you will get the benefit of that training across all your characters, to the degree each vessel is capable of mastering that skill.)
Attributes, i.e. Strength, Dexterity, etc., are dictated by the vessel (including any talent and discipline runestones you have applied to that vessel). You may be incredibly skilled with an executioner's axe, but your ability to wield it will be severely blunted if your vessel doesn't have the strength to wield it.
There is a degree of rarity involved in how vessels are dropped, but it is primarily location-based so it’s not as random as you might expect. The best vessels are going to come from the more dangerous campaign worlds, in keeping with our general design philosophy of "higher risk, higher reward". Crafting end the economy system are the methods that we use to level the playing field. We expect a thriving economy of vessels and vessel components to give players who don't want to brave those worlds a way to stay competitive. They will just have to specialize in another good or service so that they have something of value to trade.

MMORPG: Since there's a whole crafting tree behind vessels (ew, crafting bodies), does that mean you can "deconstruct" a vessel to get the parts needed? It makes me think you get to play out your Frankenstein fantasies in Crowfall.
JTC: Yes, technically it's called 'scavenging'; it's actually the same process that you use to break a longsword down for raw materials.

MMORPG: What would the "resources" for vessel crafting be like? I'm cringing already.
JTC: Yeah, it's grim.  We're likely to limit this these recipes to particular disciplines (sub-classes) like "Necromancy", though, so the players who elect to trade in this market should have a pretty good idea what they are getting into. 

MMORPG: Will players have to re-customize their character each time they enter a new vessel? (Hoping for saved templates here)
JTC: Yes, but remember that you don't have to move to a new vessel, you can use parts from acquired vessels to upgrade your current one. 

MMORPG: We know that vessels will be subject to decay, like weapons and armor. Is your vision that most players repair them or replace them regularly?
JTC: I think this will vary from one player to the next.  Some players will collect a lot of them, and treat them as disposable assets. Others will become very attached to one (or a few) and repair and upgrade those avatars forever. We tried to make the system flexible enough to accommodate both play styles.

MMORPG: Will players always have access to their favorite archetypes in this system?
JTC: The use of the word "always" makes that question hard to answer. Will they have access? Yes. Will it always be free, instantaneous and easy on every world? No. 
If you want to play a centaur, you’ll have to find an appropriate graveyard. How challenging (and dangerous) that will be will depend on which campaign world you are on and your ability to navigate the ongoing thronewar at that time.

MMORPG: How will this system with the VIP perk of having early access to new archetypes?
JTC: We haven’t exactly settled this, yet. As with all of our VIP rewards, the goal is to find that delicate balance point where VIP feels valuable but isn’t given an advantage (in terms of power) over non-VIP players.
One thing to remember, though: you can trade VIP tickets to other players for in-game goods and services. So these benefits aren’t only for “people who pay us”, they are for “people who contribute to the game” – that could be with a monthly subscription or it could be by establishing yourself as a master crafter, or a mercenary, or a broker of rare artifacts… or as a necromancer! … and trading that service to other players.

MMORPG: Can players flip back and forth at will from vessel to vessel during a campaign?
JTC: At will, no. Can they change within a campaign? Absolutely.

MMORPG: How much of an advantage will a legendary vessel be compared to a common vessel?
JTC: Our power curve is much more flat than most MMOs. Even a veteran player in full gear should be worried if they get caught in an alley by four mid-level guys.
Vessels are set up on a diminishing returns curve, just like items and skills (and practically everything else).

MMORPG: Since players are able to import vessels into a campaign, how are these safe from player looting upon death? What about the discipline stones to rebuild the character?
JTC: It depends on the campaign rules. Vessels are converted back into items when you die, and therefore they follow the looting rules of that campaign. On one side of the spectrum you have no loot campaigns (so they are completely safe and you can pray to the gods to get them back), and on the other end they are dropped to the ground and it’s up to you, or your friends, to retrieve them.

MMORPG: Can vessels obtained during a campaign (via crafting, looting or scavenging) be stored safely for use later in the campaign or are they at the same risk as other items/materials?
JTC: Items that are brought in (via your import) are safe until you pull them out your import and into the campaign. Items (including vessels) that are collected can be stored, but you have to transport them somewhere safe first. Until that happens, they are at risk – just like a tonne of stone, an elven blade or a recovered artifact.

[Falconeer]

Ever wondered how big decisions in the development of a MMORPG are made? Be a fly on the wall for ten minutes.