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Author Topic: Overwatch  (Read 235187 times)
Venkman
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Reply #770 on: August 04, 2016, 05:46:13 PM

Playing for [only] the love of the game nowadays means the company left money on the table.

It doesn't bother me that I won't get some useless decorative. What does bother me is the sense of entitlement that is as old as MMOs: the idea that content from a patch must be for everyone.

It's not. Oh technically it is possible to grind your way through the RNG. But they know most will give up on that at some point. So they're just monetizing the completionists that don't want to grind. And they're seeing how far they can push into online casino like behavior. I'm sure there'll be a patch at some point and then within a few months you'll just be able to outright buy the thing you want.

But why do that out of the gate when you know you can monetize the rubes along the way? To prevent players from being pissed off? Please. One of the main rules of online game is no matter what you do, someone is going to be pissed off about something. Fool's errand to prioritize 100% pissed-off-free audience.

Yet another feature that jumped from MMOs without the downsides of MMOs.

Eh, I'm ok with price. I think I paid that much to get the pre-Alpha invite to EQ Landmark. I enjoyed the shit out that for however look it took before they fucked up the experience. And previously I consistently spent that on hoping this MMO would finally be "the one".

Also, totally agree time-spent and person-hours worked is not corrolary to price point.

But perceived value is. If they think it's a AAA quality experience with that level of playability, well, that's what they're selling. And they're launching before $60 becomes an issue for a procedurally generated indie game up against the juggernauts drives the price down.

I'll be camping when this launches, so by the time I return, I'll know from the day oner's if it's worth it smiley

That's where this post went! I got logged out right as I was posting, so it defaulted to starting a new thread, so I copy/pasted that back into the thread I thought I was in. Heh.
I'm assuming you meant to put this in the NMS thread?
Kail
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Reply #771 on: August 04, 2016, 07:28:52 PM

What does bother me is the sense of entitlement that is as old as MMOs: the idea that content from a patch must be for everyone.
[snip...]
But why do that out of the gate when you know you can monetize the rubes along the way? To prevent players from being pissed off? Please. One of the main rules of online game is no matter what you do, someone is going to be pissed off about something. Fool's errand to prioritize 100% pissed-off-free audience.

Jumping from "someone somewhere will always find some flaw in whatever you do" to "fuck customer feedback, just do whatever you feel like you can get away with" is kind of a risky step.  Clearly, Blizzard thinks that pissing off the people who would spend $10 for a skin but not $50 for fifty pulls of the lever is worth the tradeoff from the whales on the other side, but nevertheless those people are still pissed off and aren't going to be quiet about it.  You can't say "fuck everyone but the 1%" and then wonder why all these damn casuals feel the "entitlement" to complain about your decisions.
Furiously
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Reply #772 on: August 04, 2016, 10:42:39 PM

Personally, I find those obsessed with "collecting everything or bust!" to the point they rage on forums incredibly obnoxious people. If one finds a way to grind in Overwatch instead of playing simply because they are enjoying the game, gods help them.

Except it also fucks over the people who only want one or two pieces because they also have to grind.  Assuming an equal drop chance, for you to have a ~75% chance of getting the one thing you want, you'll have to level up about 140 times in 20 days.  Anyone who is interested in something from this set is in for a serious grind, the only people who aren't likely to be negatively impacted are the ones who don't care about any of it, which seems like that might be kind of an indicator that the update is sort of lame.

And complaining about people grinding for rewards specifically added to make people grind for them seems overly defensive.  That's the whole point of the system.  If you want people to play for the love of the game, then don't dangle carrots in front of them the whole time.

As a casual user it definitely sends a message.

Falconeer
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Reply #773 on: August 05, 2016, 01:27:16 AM

Personally, I find those obsessed with "collecting everything or bust!" to the point they rage on forums incredibly obnoxious people. If one finds a way to grind in Overwatch instead of playing simply because they are enjoying the game, gods help them.

Except it also fucks over the people who only want one or two pieces because they also have to grind.  Assuming an equal drop chance, for you to have a ~75% chance of getting the one thing you want, you'll have to level up about 140 times in 20 days.  Anyone who is interested in something from this set is in for a serious grind, the only people who aren't likely to be negatively impacted are the ones who don't care about any of it, which seems like that might be kind of an indicator that the update is sort of lame.

Nah. That's not a carrot. The game is about shooting people and scoring objectives. As an added fun thing to keep track of -that has become necessary these days otherwise people get bored in a minute- there are cosmetic items that can get obtained for free over time. Wanting them ALL is your problem.

Also, this is not the first MOBA-like game to do this, they often have you pay for a chance at unique skins only available on certain times of the year not to mention even more unique skins that are handed out at conventions or other exclusive events that basically no one will ever have. I say fuck customer feedback especially considering that this is probably a perfect example of "loud minority" being pissed because reasons.

Quote
And complaining about people grinding for rewards specifically added to make people grind for them seems overly defensive.  That's the whole point of the system.  If you want people to play for the love of the game, then don't dangle carrots in front of them the whole time.

No, the point of the system is not to grind, not at all. The point of the game is to have fun while playing pew pew, while the point of the "Reward System" is to make the user feel that their matches matter. That even though they start to feel all the same over the weeks and months you play, your account is not always the same, it 'evolves'. Getting cosmetic skins and colours or having a level number grow infinitely is just to reinforce that effect, but the point is not to grind. Or would you say that the point of the system is to get to level 999 (or maybe 9999) too? "If it's there, it must be the goal and I want it", right?
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 01:40:17 AM by Falconeer »

Malakili
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Reply #774 on: August 05, 2016, 05:40:26 AM

Haven't we all internalized that this stuff is all basically just psychological trickery to get you to play a game you've otherwise gotten bored of?  If you are only playing ANY game to grind some random thing while sitting there miserable - stop playing and do something else. That's all there is to it.
Merusk
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Reply #775 on: August 05, 2016, 07:40:55 AM

They don't expect anyone to actually grind for this shit. You all are crazy mo fos trapped in your old way of thinking about games. This is pure monetization.

You are expected to spend money and gamble on the chance. $10 buys you 11 boxes. It's so easy. It's right there, just a click away. Just do it, that's 11 whole chances, guys! You're sure to get something, even if it's not what you REALLY want.

It's so easy. It's so cheap. $10 it's not a lot of money.

Just do it.

Really.

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Soulflame
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Reply #776 on: August 05, 2016, 08:33:21 AM

I realize I am a cheap bastard, but $10 is a lot of money for me to blow on gambling I will get a digital nothing that will be worthless the second I stop using that particular shiny decoration, or I stop playing.
Falconeer
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Reply #777 on: August 05, 2016, 08:45:34 AM

They don't expect anyone to actually grind for this shit. You all are crazy mo fos trapped in your old way of thinking about games. This is pure monetization.

You are expected to spend money and gamble on the chance. $10 buys you 11 boxes. It's so easy. It's right there, just a click away. Just do it, that's 11 whole chances, guys! You're sure to get something, even if it's not what you REALLY want.

It's so easy. It's so cheap. $10 it's not a lot of money.

Just do it.

Really.

Exactly. This stuff is "vanity" stuff. It's useless, it's just about wanting to feel cooler than other people even though you really aren't. I dislike monetization tactics but this is really a mild one considering you have plenty of chances to get that stuff by playing the game normally anyway. And if you become obsessed by the fact that you can't have it all, well that's on you. I really really want the Zarya Olympic skin as I really really wanted the Chang'e Lunar Tango exclusiive skin in Smite. But what can I say? It is so not the point of the game that, gee, whatever. At least here, as long as I am still enjoying the gameplay, there's a chance I'll get it. In other games, you either pay up or you are out of luck.

Merusk
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Reply #778 on: August 05, 2016, 09:17:30 AM

Funny, I got both of Zariya's skins - Champion and Weightlifter - last night hoping for a new Reinhardt or Mei skin. If there were trades I'd probably give you one.

I realize I am a cheap bastard, but $10 is a lot of money for me to blow on gambling I will get a digital nothing that will be worthless the second I stop using that particular shiny decoration, or I stop playing.

Yeah, but that's the method of things these days. We've moved past worthless physical goods and swag into worthless digital goods. They're more environmentally friendly.  awesome, for real

I try not to think about the cash I've blown on worthless things. It'd drive me up a wall. Almost NOTHING you've ever spent money on has been necessary at the level you've spent.

Did I need that coffee? No, I have free stuff at work.
Did I need to pick-up a new grill? No, the old one was fine, it just needed more work than I was willing to put into it.
I sure as hell don't need any more souvenirs, swag, logo-shirts or pretty cool desk accouterments.
I don't need to buy Cracker Barrel cheese instead of store-brand generic.
Did I need the deluxe edition of any game I've ever played? Fuck no, it was a totally worthless expenditure. Hell, the game itself was when it comes down to it. I could have waited a year or two and spent 75% to 95% less.

Yet it gets done. It's consumption and consumerism, and spins waaaaay off into a different discussion when you think about it. This is just a new tier.


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Rasix
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Reply #779 on: August 05, 2016, 10:04:51 AM

Funny, I got both of Zariya's skins - Champion and Weightlifter - last night hoping for a new Reinhardt or Mei skin. If there were trades I'd probably give you one.

I realize I am a cheap bastard, but $10 is a lot of money for me to blow on gambling I will get a digital nothing that will be worthless the second I stop using that particular shiny decoration, or I stop playing.

Yeah, but that's the method of things these days. We've moved past worthless physical goods and swag into worthless digital goods. They're more environmentally friendly.  awesome, for real

I try not to think about the cash I've blown on worthless things. It'd drive me up a wall. Almost NOTHING you've ever spent money on has been necessary at the level you've spent.

Did I need that coffee? No, I have free stuff at work.
Did I need to pick-up a new grill? No, the old one was fine, it just needed more work than I was willing to put into it.
I sure as hell don't need any more souvenirs, swag, logo-shirts or pretty cool desk accouterments.
I don't need to buy Cracker Barrel cheese instead of store-brand generic.
Did I need the deluxe edition of any game I've ever played? Fuck no, it was a totally worthless expenditure. Hell, the game itself was when it comes down to it. I could have waited a year or two and spent 75% to 95% less.

Yet it gets done. It's consumption and consumerism, and spins waaaaay off into a different discussion when you think about it. This is just a new tier.



Money spent on better cheese is never wasted.  Although I'd get Tilamook over Cracker Barrel.

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Falconeer
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Reply #780 on: August 05, 2016, 10:08:46 AM

Funny, I got both of Zariya's skins - Champion and Weightlifter - last night hoping for a new Reinhardt or Mei skin. If there were trades I'd probably give you one.

Thanks! Sadly, that would kill their monetizaton scheme so it's never gonna happen  awesome, for real

Soulflame
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Reply #781 on: August 05, 2016, 12:47:34 PM

Tilamook is good stuff.
Merusk
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Reply #782 on: August 05, 2016, 12:53:12 PM

Never heard of it. Now I must try it.

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Kail
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Reply #783 on: August 05, 2016, 03:21:42 PM

Quote
And complaining about people grinding for rewards specifically added to make people grind for them seems overly defensive.  That's the whole point of the system.

No, the point of the system is not to grind, not at all. The point of the game is to have fun while playing pew pew, while the point of the "Reward System" is to make the user feel that their matches matter. That even though they start to feel all the same over the weeks and months you play, your account is not always the same, it 'evolves'. Getting cosmetic skins and colours or having a level number grow infinitely is just to reinforce that effect, but the point is not to grind. Or would you say that the point of the system is to get to level 999 (or maybe 9999) too? "If it's there, it must be the goal and I want it", right?

I meant the point of the loot system specifically, not the game as a whole.  Maybe "grind" is too loaded of a word, but the point of the system is definitely to make the players keep playing past the point that the gameplay itself is mechanically engaging.

The point of the leveling system is definitely to level up, but since there's no definite cap (as far as I know), then there's no "I must level to 999 and THEN the real game begins" the way there is in WoW or even Heroes of the Storm.  The loot system is different because it offers discrete awards.  Nobody cares about being level 37 because there's no functional difference between it and level 36 or level 38 or any other level (leaving aside piddly stuff like portrait borders which okay, whatever), but having a specific piece of loot versus a different one IS relevant because it changes the way your character looks and some people are going to like some of the alternate skins better than the default ones.

There's plenty of systems that are there that aren't goals.  My character has a death counter and I don't think I, or most other people, have really felt the compulsive need to bump that counter up to 999 because it's a number and I get off on big numbers (secretly it's just because I suck).  But leveling up is a pretty explicit win state in this game, it's definitely presented as a goal that you're working towards, not a loss state that you should try to avoid.  Heck, just calling it a "level" makes it seem like you want to increase it, it's always good to be on a "higher level" than a lower level (outside of really defined topics like computer languages).

But anyways, I was finally able to log in today and got the skin I wanted in the freebie box they give to the first login so now I think the system is perfect and should never be changed.
Soulflame
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Reply #784 on: August 05, 2016, 03:25:05 PM

Perhaps Overwatch needs an auction house.

 why so serious?
Trippy
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Reply #785 on: August 05, 2016, 03:44:08 PM

Rimshot
Malakili
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Reply #786 on: August 05, 2016, 07:55:55 PM

Remember when companies used to release a game, and then you owned the game, and that was it?
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #787 on: August 05, 2016, 10:29:07 PM

Remember when companies used to release a game, and then you owned the game, and that was it?

I get it, I do.  For $40 however I find overwatch without any transaction to be more than worth it.

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Reply #788 on: August 06, 2016, 07:42:53 AM

Seriously. It's light on content but there is nothing you need to spend extra money for, or even want to unless you have a gambling addiction of some sort. I think this is pretty OK so far in that sense.

Rendakor
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Reply #789 on: August 06, 2016, 08:35:45 AM

Remember when companies used to release a game, and then you owned the game, and that was it?
Cosmetic unlocks available in-game are not new. There are no paid extra characters, stages, modes, etc.

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rk47
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Reply #790 on: August 06, 2016, 09:14:58 AM

Unlike you all, I hate paying for my games.

Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
Malakili
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Reply #791 on: August 06, 2016, 09:43:30 AM

Remember when companies used to release a game, and then you owned the game, and that was it?
Cosmetic unlocks available in-game are not new. There are no paid extra characters, stages, modes, etc.

Yep, and I'm glad that they went that route instead of the LoL model. I almost certainly would not have played an FPS with that model.

Nonetheless, I think my main point is this: If you are playing a game at any point for the main reason that you want to unlock something rather than because you are enjoying the moment to moment gameplay. Stop playing. They've become a way to artificially get people to keep playing and/or spend money when they would have put the game down before. It's a business trick, not a game design element.
Rendakor
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Reply #792 on: August 06, 2016, 10:39:05 AM

I agree with you entirely. I hate LoL for it's business model, and wouldn't have bought this if they had gone that route.

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Kail
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Reply #793 on: August 06, 2016, 10:46:49 AM

I don't mind LoL so much because at least it's free.  It's the "have your cake and eat it too" model where you pay upfront AND get nickel and dimed for "unlocks" that bugs me.  Overwatch is at the tame end of that spectrum but it's still one of those things that bugs me about it.
Samprimary
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Reply #794 on: August 06, 2016, 03:18:34 PM

i'm just still incredibly thankful that they decided to go the box purchase route. with every hero. for everyone. with a guarantee of no non-cosmetic options ever requiring the payment of more money. everyone is equally powerful from the very, very start. nobody's team composition gets fucked because someone's all like "but all I own is genji" or "i don't have any main heals on rotation this month"

everyone can play everything, end of story.
Venkman
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Reply #795 on: August 06, 2016, 05:10:38 PM

Remember when companies used to release a game, and then you owned the game, and that was it?

Yep. Back when they were all offline single player games and I had to install it from ten 3 1/2" disks that I burned out somehow so had to buy Ultima IV again smiley Or Skyrim.

Not all games need to be paymium. But there's a market for people who want to pay more, so why shouldn't companies try?

I think Overwatch does a great job, for what Samprimary noted.
Samprimary
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Reply #796 on: August 08, 2016, 05:07:22 AM

The only thing I think they need to do is switch up how limited time skins and things can be acquired.  Presently, with the threat of a gift box deadline looming for the Rio Olympics event,  it becomes a slap in the face to labor through a level just to get another four voice lines and sprays.
Kail
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Reply #797 on: August 08, 2016, 03:48:13 PM

The only thing I think they need to do is switch up how limited time skins and things can be acquired.  Presently, with the threat of a gift box deadline looming for the Rio Olympics event,  it becomes a slap in the face to labor through a level just to get another four voice lines and sprays.

That would be nice, I really do hope they don't use this model for future events.  Though given how many people are posting "I paid $50 for loot boxes and got nothing good" I suspect they made a fair bit and we won't see much change until that stops.

One suggestion for the loot system that sounded really good to me was to give people credits in every loot box (or just a few credits for each game, the way games like LoL and Heroes of the Storm handle it).  Right now credit income is really inconsistent for newbies because the drop rates for currency are low and the only other way to get it is to get duplicates which doesn't happen much when you're starting out.  But if you could get a guaranteed currency income then you'd at least be able to feel like you're making progress towards that one item you want, rather than just another identical roll of the dice which may or may not turn out any better than the last one.
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Reply #798 on: August 08, 2016, 04:42:38 PM

 If you haven't gotten a SINGLE Olympic thing in $50 of boxes then something's fucked.  "Nothing good"  more likely means, "I didn't get the skin/ intro/ victory pose I *REALLY* wanted!!"

I spent $10 when I got those two Zarya skins. I also got the Mei and Zariya medal poses and a bunch of bullshit like sprays that are all Olympic themed. I have yet to see a Mei skin from leveling or purchase of boxes, so the RNG gods *can* be unkind. Just not unkind to that level.

Of course, I'm also someone who opens 2-3 boxes, goes and plays a game then comes back to open 2-3 more. I know computers are *supposed* to be random, but Blizzard's RNG system has always sucked across all their games. Whatever it uses for seeds is hinky and creates wild feast-and-famine situations across small to mid-sized batches. Always has, but they look at the "Big data" and declare it A-ok.

Anyway: I'm getting much better at this game now that I'm playing tanks.

https://youtu.be/kBxU6uka8SQ

https://youtu.be/lvgurEf_0bM
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 05:02:20 PM by Merusk »

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MrHat
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Reply #799 on: August 08, 2016, 05:08:28 PM

If you haven't gotten a SINGLE Olympic thing in $50 of boxes then something's fucked.  "Nothing good"  more likely means, "I didn't get the skin/ intro/ victory pose I *REALLY* wanted!!"

I spent $10 when I got those two Zarya skins. I also got the Mei and Zariya medal poses and a bunch of bullshit like sprays that are all Olympic themed. I have yet to see a Mei skin from leveling or purchase of boxes, so the RNG gods *can* be unkind. Just not unkind to that level.

Of course, I'm also someone who opens 2-3 boxes, goes and plays a game then comes back to open 2-3 more. I know computers are *supposed* to be random, but Blizzard's RNG system has always sucked across all their games. Whatever it uses for seeds is hinky and creates wild feast-and-famine situations across small to mid-sized batches. Always has, but they look at the "Big data" and declare it A-ok.

Anyway: I'm getting much better at this game now that I'm playing tanks.

https://youtu.be/kBxU6uka8SQ

https://youtu.be/lvgurEf_0bM

Nice clips!

ezrast
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Reply #800 on: August 08, 2016, 07:10:45 PM

I know computers are *supposed* to be random, but Blizzard's RNG system has always sucked across all their games. Whatever it uses for seeds is hinky and creates wild feast-and-famine situations across small to mid-sized batches. Always has, but they look at the "Big data" and declare it A-ok.
I find it bizarre that people still think this and I will bet basically any amount of money that this is not the case, at least not the way you mean it. The devs could be intentionally fudging the numbers (this is known to be the case in Hearthstone; legendary cards become more common once you open 40+ consecutive packs without one), and they could theoretically be misusing the RNG's output (When I played Warframe, survival missions would sometimes offer the same supposedly-random reward after every wave because the game would traverse the loot table in a stupid way), but for something like this the RNG could probably output sequential numbers and nobody would notice because of the entropy naturally generated by thousands of players all interacting with the server at once (you don't have your own personal RNG that saves its state just for you). "Blizzard's RNG system" is, if anything, probably just a wrapper around the C standard library's "rand()" function or some other well-known implementation. Random number generation of a quality high enough for video games is a really fundamental programming operation and the idea that they have managed to unintentionally screw it up in a consistent manner across multiple independent projects is basically unthinkable.
Fabricated
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Reply #801 on: August 08, 2016, 08:36:48 PM

The way they're handling the limited time boxes is pretty scummy because you can't just buy the skins with the booby prize currency.

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Reply #802 on: August 09, 2016, 12:20:35 PM

Nice clips!

Thanks! The best are the games where the opposite team say things like, "Good Reinhardt!" or you get friend requests because you were doing well. I'll take those.

I got these 4 plays yesterday. I failed on the last one, see if you notice how.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-8-_o3mLUk&feature=youtu.be

As for the RNG.. C's Rand() function is known to be buggy. Even I know that and I'm not a programmer. It was known as far back as the Mudding days. If they're relying on that then yeah there's a problem.

Also, just because big sets play-out it doesn't mean small sets do. If you have a randomizer where you get 1,1,1,1,1,1 and then 0,0,0,0,0 then 0,1,0 but only look at the large set you think you're on target.  There have been MULTIPLE accounts over the years from enough folks regarding wonky streaks to question the methodology of their functions.

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Reply #803 on: August 09, 2016, 01:48:04 PM

Played it at a buddy's house. Shooting mechanics are solid, though I dislike the emphasis on audio cues. Also, too much emphasis on needing to counter certain characters with specific other characters.

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ezrast
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Reply #804 on: August 09, 2016, 03:46:41 PM

As for the RNG.. C's Rand() function is known to be buggy. Even I know that and I'm not a programmer. It was known as far back as the Mudding days. If they're relying on that then yeah there's a problem.
I will admit that some (all?) implementations of rand() are actually lower-quality than I thought.

You would argue, then, that if I post a million numbers generated by rand() (as implemented by whatever version of glibc is on my system right now) and another million numbers generated by some other high-quality RNG of your choice, you could, given sufficient time and motivation, tell me which list comes from which generator without performing any computer-assisted statistical analysis?
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