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Author Topic: Overwatch  (Read 79973 times)
Threash
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Reply #70 on: November 08, 2014, 07:42:39 PM

Looks incredibly fun.

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KallDrexx
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Reply #71 on: November 08, 2014, 08:39:32 PM

Fits quite well with your signature awesome, for real
Merusk
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Reply #72 on: November 08, 2014, 09:53:34 PM

This is re-purposed leftovers from a failed project. How can it be anything but bad?

But they totally said it wasn't when asked at the Overwatch Q&A and that this was something totally different! If you can't believe Metzen, who can you believe?  why so serious?

Now that I've seen and read more about it, it sounds like it's going to be an FPS Leage of Legends rather than TF2.  The classesHeroes aren't static and will be rolling out new ones on a regular basis to fit certain roles with new abilities.

With a model like that it's got to be F2P with transactions for leagues and skins. However, questions about the business model have been deflected with, "Uh, we're the wrong people to ask," from B & C-level Blizzard staff.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Moreso than anyone but Valve, Blizzard's talent is making really well polished games. They may not be any good, but they'll still have that shine.

This is still kind of true, but this feels less true to me now.

Previously to me Blizzard polish meant graphical polish, performance polish, look and feel stuff (interface, sound, etc) as well as systems polish. I don't think that last one is the case any more. The systems are now often a weak point in games - to some degree this is true of Diablo, Starcraft and Heroes of the Storm.

They still know how to make the moment-to-moment action feel good and look nice but the weakness of these games is their core gameplay.

I agree, and have no idea how that's happened. Probably the inevitable outcome of a corporate structure. Blizzard as a company has been around 23 years now. The guys in charge are old men in the industry, and that corporate structure isn't going to let the young & hungry run things now. How many 21- 24 year olds lead Designers in charge of a project like Warcraft now? Those were Morhaime and Pardo's ages in 1991. Nowadays folks that age might be lucky to get a Q&A position much less Jr. Designer, right?

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Samprimary
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Reply #73 on: November 08, 2014, 09:55:29 PM

This is re-purposed leftovers from a failed project. How can it be anything but bad?

Like, hypothetically?

A company with a ton of resources and manpower that may be cuddling into a bit of a well needed renaissance has an idea for something fun, and really for years give it a go but conclude that it just doesn't translate into The Fun in its intended genre. They abandon the cursed genre, but take all the worldbuilding and whatever coherent cross-class testing and development they could and eventually decide through conceptual testing that they might be able to mix together elements of two more or less contemporary breakout game types and adapt the world idea and the art and stylization (along with some of their class ideas, combat mechanics, etc). It's basically tf3, poaching a lot of ideas without trying to reinvent the wheel, and make the classes a bit more like moba classes. And get real creative with mobility options between classes.

The game comes out and (again hypothetically) manages the miracle work of class balance for such a thing. F13 begrudgingly drydocks its own cynicism train, admits it is actually pretty fun and a lot of them are playing it, and enjoy that it's a welcome addition to a stock of games that one can just sit down and give a spin in the odd hours.

Samprimary additionally gets a pony, and Destiny's plot gets to the point, world peace is achieved, part three of SC2 has a not terrible story, and HL3 is announced.
Malakili
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Reply #74 on: November 08, 2014, 10:09:53 PM

Quote
It's basically tf3, poaching a lot of ideas without trying to reinvent the wheel, and make the classes a bit more like moba classes.

This is probably not an insanely unrealistic outcome.  If there is something Blizzard is good at, it is improving on existing, established games. The problem for them is really that TF2 is already a good TF2, so I'm not really sure what a "TF3" improves on.
Hutch
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Reply #75 on: November 08, 2014, 10:10:08 PM

The game comes out and (again hypothetically) manages the miracle work of class balance for such a thing. F13 begrudgingly drydocks its own cynicism train, admits it is actually pretty fun and a lot of them are playing it, and enjoy that it's a welcome addition to a stock of games that one can just sit down and give a spin in the odd hours.

The game comes out and (again hypothetically) manages the miracle work of class balance for such a thing.

manages the miracle work of class balance

miracle work of class balance

class balance

LOL @ Blizzard managing class balance in a PvP setting. They couldn't do it in WoW, when their A team was still around (and still can't). There's zero chance that these back benchers can handle it.

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Kail
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Reply #76 on: November 08, 2014, 10:11:13 PM

Moreso than anyone but Valve, Blizzard's talent is making really well polished games. They may not be any good, but they'll still have that shine.

This is still kind of true, but this feels less true to me now.

Previously to me Blizzard polish meant graphical polish, performance polish, look and feel stuff (interface, sound, etc) as well as systems polish. I don't think that last one is the case any more. The systems are now often a weak point in games - to some degree this is true of Diablo, Starcraft and Heroes of the Storm.

They still know how to make the moment-to-moment action feel good and look nice but the weakness of these games is their core gameplay.

To me, they're still true of Blizzard, it's just less of a rarity nowadays, so they don't stand out as much.  Back when StarCraft was first launched, the "industry standard" was still largely college age guys working on games they loved, and things like intuitive interfaces and approachable difficulty curves and consistent visual design were not top concern.  Nowadays, though, the suits have spoken and these things shift units, so we have whole departments handling this stuff which was often passed off on to one guy before.  At least, that's how it looks to me.

We don't know that it's free though.  They haven't announced a pricing structure at all.


Given that the games it seems to be competing with (League of Legends, Team Fortress 2, Super Monday Night Combat, etc.) all tend to be free, the only way I can see it with a price tag is if there's some kind of extensive single player storyline attached, and I haven't heard anything about that.  The only other successful model out there for FPS right now that I can think of is Planetside 2, and that seems to rely on features I haven't heard Overwatch mention.
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Reply #77 on: November 08, 2014, 10:54:14 PM

Quote
It's basically tf3, poaching a lot of ideas without trying to reinvent the wheel, and make the classes a bit more like moba classes.

This is probably not an insanely unrealistic outcome.  If there is something Blizzard is good at, it is improving on existing, established games. The problem for them is really that TF2 is already a good TF2, so I'm not really sure what a "TF3" improves on.
I point you to Heroes of the Storm. They are not as good at this as you think.

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Malakili
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Reply #78 on: November 08, 2014, 11:11:54 PM

Quote
It's basically tf3, poaching a lot of ideas without trying to reinvent the wheel, and make the classes a bit more like moba classes.

This is probably not an insanely unrealistic outcome.  If there is something Blizzard is good at, it is improving on existing, established games. The problem for them is really that TF2 is already a good TF2, so I'm not really sure what a "TF3" improves on.
I point you to Heroes of the Storm. They are not as good at this as you think.

Each of their major franchises basically started this way.  Heroes sucks, but it's basically the only time they've botched it.  Hearthstone sucks too, but they did what they were trying to do well, I just happen to despise what they were trying to do.

I guess you could argue from a what have you done for me lately point of view that they haven't really successfully done this since WoW, so it's been a decade. That's fair.
Margalis
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Reply #79 on: November 08, 2014, 11:50:43 PM

I suspect the game will be fine. Being repurposed Titan assets doesn't mean it will be bad.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Merusk
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Reply #80 on: November 09, 2014, 02:14:40 AM



 why so serious?

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SurfD
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Reply #81 on: November 09, 2014, 02:55:39 AM

The game comes out and (again hypothetically) manages the miracle work of class balance for such a thing. F13 begrudgingly drydocks its own cynicism train, admits it is actually pretty fun and a lot of them are playing it, and enjoy that it's a welcome addition to a stock of games that one can just sit down and give a spin in the odd hours.

The game comes out and (again hypothetically) manages the miracle work of class balance for such a thing.

manages the miracle work of class balance

miracle work of class balance

class balance

LOL @ Blizzard managing class balance in a PvP setting. They couldn't do it in WoW, when their A team was still around (and still can't). There's zero chance that these back benchers can handle it.

I imagine class balancing is orders of magnitude easier when your "classes" are more like "archetypes" (sniper, gunner, mechanic, scout, meatshield, etc) and you are only balancing around a 4-6 button toolkit for each character instead of a 20-25 button toolkit for something like a Druid or a Warlock.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 02:57:20 AM by SurfD »

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lamaros
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Reply #82 on: November 09, 2014, 07:01:18 AM

So her ass inflates when she puts her goggles on? A bit unnecessary.

Expect poison from the standing water.
Threash
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Reply #83 on: November 09, 2014, 07:40:51 AM

Quote
It's basically tf3, poaching a lot of ideas without trying to reinvent the wheel, and make the classes a bit more like moba classes.

This is probably not an insanely unrealistic outcome.  If there is something Blizzard is good at, it is improving on existing, established games. The problem for them is really that TF2 is already a good TF2, so I'm not really sure what a "TF3" improves on.

By the time this comes out TF2 will be over a decade old, being a new TF2 should be enough of an improvement.

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Reply #84 on: November 09, 2014, 08:19:42 AM

Class balance is not really a problem anymore, at least in team based games, as shown by MOBAs or games like Smite that have dozens of classes/characters. If anything, all they have to do is clone those games skills and mechanics.

Lantyssa
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Reply #85 on: November 09, 2014, 09:11:31 AM

Given that the games it seems to be competing with (League of Legends, Team Fortress 2, Super Monday Night Combat, etc.) all tend to be free, the only way I can see it with a price tag is if there's some kind of extensive single player storyline attached, and I haven't heard anything about that.  The only other successful model out there for FPS right now that I can think of is Planetside 2, and that seems to rely on features I haven't heard Overwatch mention.
Logic would suggest to us this is true.  That does not make it so.  If Blizzard decides that an initial box cost with a low sub-fee and micro-trans for DLC nets them more money they will go that route.

My friend whose last FPS was playing Unreal Tournament with us on LAN a decade ago because the gameplay isn't for her is considering this.  Because it's Blizzard and she's a WoW-addict.  Just like what happened with Diablo 3 and one of the Starcrafts.  She's never played Starcraft, probably won't ever play this one, but "It was only twenty dollars."

There's time to switch it to f2p down the line after they've made box sales to recoup development and get a whole new boost of people.  If it can turn games like DDO and Star Trek around, imagine what it can do for something that will sell boxes because of a name?

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #86 on: November 09, 2014, 09:18:49 AM

"Fuck it, repackage it, multiplayer PVP FPS, HATS"

Also lol poor Bethesda; they're doing one of these stupid things too and no one gave a shit about it ALREADY. It's officially doomed.

Ho damn, I forgot about that. Battlecry or something. Whelp...

I've played Battlegrounds and it is so very average. Admittedly I only played a beta version with 3 of the five classes, but it really boiled down to spamming your attacks until the other person fell down or you did.

Maybe it improves with the other classes, or once you start progressing your character, but it wasn't that fun starting from scratch.

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Reply #87 on: November 09, 2014, 09:25:49 AM

So her ass inflates when she puts her goggles on? A bit unnecessary.

It's probably just a rigging bug of some sort. The same thing Pixar and Dreamworks have shown create bizarre and amusing scenes when they happen in movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNngNiYXuVE

I thought it was worth a laugh, given the nature of the bug and the sensuality of the character.

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Malakili
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Reply #88 on: November 09, 2014, 09:54:18 AM

Draegan
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Reply #89 on: November 09, 2014, 09:56:58 AM

So her ass inflates when she puts her goggles on? A bit unnecessary.

Maledict
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Reply #90 on: November 09, 2014, 09:57:58 AM

Even for F13 this thread is depressingly negative.

I love Heroes of the Storm - it's far more interesting and fun than dota 2 / LoL, and I'm guessing I'm their target market.

Having gorged on Destiny, Garden Warfare and Wolfenstein this year I'm definitely going through a shooters phase, and Overwatch looks brilliant fun. TF2 is almost totally innaccessible to a new player it seems, and Overwatch looks like it will fill that niche very well.
Draegan
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Reply #91 on: November 09, 2014, 10:00:50 AM

That's where we disagree. HOTS is incredibly boring to me.
Malakili
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Reply #92 on: November 09, 2014, 10:04:29 AM

That's where we disagree. HOTS is incredibly boring to me.

I really really tried to like HOTS.  But it is just awful.  For me it comes down to the gimmicky maps, I think.  Sorry you lose, you didn't collect enough coins compared to the other team.  Fuck right off with that.
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Reply #93 on: November 09, 2014, 10:14:42 AM

I found HOTS awful too. For every nice change, there were 2 things about it I hated.

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Reply #94 on: November 09, 2014, 11:07:34 AM

Even for F13 this thread is depressingly negative.

I love Heroes of the Storm - it's far more interesting and fun than dota 2 / LoL, and I'm guessing I'm their target market.

Having gorged on Destiny, Garden Warfare and Wolfenstein this year I'm definitely going through a shooters phase, and Overwatch looks brilliant fun. TF2 is almost totally innaccessible to a new player it seems, and Overwatch looks like it will fill that niche very well.

I'd love to give HOTS a try, but apparenly I'm the only person on earth who hasn't been able to get into the test play. No idea how that is.

Overwatch could be fun, but as I said, FPS isn't for me.  No interest in playing "healer" or "engineer" classes in a game where you become the primary target for kids with far better reflexes.  Wasn't fun in TF2 and I don't expect it to be fun here.  Relying on a team of strangers to work with that sort of coordination proved to be just an exercise in frustration for me. Far too many "don't protect the squishies, MAX DPS" people out there.

Game looks slick, though. I'll admit I'll give it a try if it's F2P but I'll drop out after a week or two, as I did with TF2.

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Nija
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Reply #95 on: November 09, 2014, 11:46:15 AM

Which game is this engineer description from?

"His main use is his ability to build, repair and upgrade turrets using scrap that he collects from dead enemies and allies. Upgraded turrets have their firepower increased, and level 3 turrets in particular have a rocket launcher added, making them particularly nasty."

A) Team Fortress for Quake 1.
B) Quakeworld Team Fortress
C) TFC for Half Life
D) TF2 on the HL2 engine
E) Overwatch

If you picked E, you are correct!!! Look at that fucking amazing Blizzard innovation! It's like a company with thousands of employees and the ability to budget BILLIONS OF DOLLARS came up with that description! LIGHT YEARS ahead of anything else.
Nija
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Reply #96 on: November 09, 2014, 11:47:22 AM

But no primed grenades or multiple grenade types per class. That shit is way too confusing. Who is our target audience?! Ph. D candidates?!?!
Maven
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Reply #97 on: November 09, 2014, 11:48:23 AM

I thought that ass inflate was a mechanical representation of a negative movement modifier for Sniper Mode.  awesome, for real
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Reply #98 on: November 09, 2014, 01:29:58 PM

So her ass inflates when she puts her goggles on? A bit unnecessary.
Looks like there's just some rig glitch happening there, like Merusk said -- you can see the front getting pushed out too, when it happens. For once I'm willing to give them benefit of doubt here.

It does look hilarious, tho why so serious?
Kail
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Reply #99 on: November 09, 2014, 03:05:51 PM

Even for F13 this thread is depressingly negative.

Eh, it's too early to rule out most of the negative possibilities, but I think it still looks fun.

Personally, it looks neat to me, and I strongly suspect I'll be playing it... unless they screw it up somehow, which is why maybe I'm coming off as negative here.  It's like going to a restaurant, you can't tell if their food is good until you eat it, but you can easily point out ways it could possibly be bad.

I'm liking Heroes of the Storm, too, but more in a "I've got to kill twenty minutes" kind of way than the LoL/Dota way where it eats up all my playtime and I go to bed wondering about what kinds of builds would work better on a certain character.  I can get why it might not take the existing game's lunch money, but it still looks neat to me.
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Reply #100 on: November 09, 2014, 04:50:29 PM

Blizzard needed a new approach. Just making Diablo 2 and Starcraft again didn't work out for them, in part because their target audience already played the shit out of both back when we had the time to do so. But also in part because there's not a next generation of gamers looking to play the kind of stuff we played the shit out of in the 90s and 00s. That is why I think Titan died. It was less that they couldn't find the fun than there is less of that kind of player who wanted the kind of fun Blizzard thought to create during the days of peak WoW.

Queue the card game and the MOBA and now this.

Good for them. It'll fit my less involved needs and maybe help them evolve into a post neckbeard world  awesome, for real

Also, people compare it to TF2. Sure as a class based FPS. But TF2 as a business? Is that even a thing? I mean, it came out in the same year as CoD4, the first Assassins Creed, the first Mass Effect. That's old. Kudos to anyone who can still be playing that seven years later, but I don't see the business of Overwatch in the context of TF2 any more than I see Far Cry 4 in the context of Crysis.
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Reply #101 on: November 09, 2014, 05:01:15 PM

Also, people compare it to TF2. Sure as a class based FPS. But TF2 as a business? Is that even a thing? I mean, it came out in the same year as CoD4, the first Assassins Creed, the first Mass Effect. That's old. Kudos to anyone who can still be playing that seven years later, but I don't see the business of Overwatch in the context of TF2 any more than I see Far Cry 4 in the context of Crysis.

Not sure if I'm misinterpreting what you mean by this, but TF2 is pretty huge.  Currently it's the third most played game on Steam, behind Dota 2 and Counterstrike: GO (Civ 5 is still fifth, interestingly enough).  It's beating out CoD: Advanced Warfighter (on the PC, anyway).
K9
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Reply #102 on: November 09, 2014, 06:35:56 PM

Moreso than anyone but Valve, Blizzard's talent is making really well polished games. They may not be any good, but they'll still have that shine.

This is still kind of true, but this feels less true to me now.

Previously to me Blizzard polish meant graphical polish, performance polish, look and feel stuff (interface, sound, etc) as well as systems polish. I don't think that last one is the case any more. The systems are now often a weak point in games - to some degree this is true of Diablo, Starcraft and Heroes of the Storm.

They still know how to make the moment-to-moment action feel good and look nice but the weakness of these games is their core gameplay.

I agree with you, when i ay polish I really mean that all the front-end shiny is so much more shiny than what any other company turns out really. There will be exciting-looking cinematics, there will be an artistic UI and a wealth of visual eye candy. They also make games which are fairly coherent and intuitive (say what you like about Blizzard games, but none of them are hard to learn to play). It's only as you dig deeper that the problems reveal themselves

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Reply #103 on: November 09, 2014, 07:23:43 PM

Also, people compare it to TF2. Sure as a class based FPS. But TF2 as a business? Is that even a thing? I mean, it came out in the same year as CoD4, the first Assassins Creed, the first Mass Effect. That's old. Kudos to anyone who can still be playing that seven years later, but I don't see the business of Overwatch in the context of TF2 any more than I see Far Cry 4 in the context of Crysis.

Not sure if I'm misinterpreting what you mean by this, but TF2 is pretty huge.  Currently it's the third most played game on Steam, behind Dota 2 and Counterstrike: GO (Civ 5 is still fifth, interestingly enough).  It's beating out CoD: Advanced Warfighter (on the PC, anyway).


Doesn't TF2 still make a ridiculous amount of money on the hat train to boot?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #104 on: November 09, 2014, 07:42:09 PM



LOL @ Blizzard managing class balance in a PvP setting. They couldn't do it in WoW, when their A team was still around (and still can't). There's zero chance that these back benchers can handle it.


I'll be the first to criticize blizzard for a ton of shit but as far as the mount fucking everest of balancing MMO classes goes I am having a hard time thinking of any studio which did it better overall.
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