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Author Topic: The Flash  (Read 35173 times)
MrHat
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Reply #315 on: November 30, 2016, 08:31:00 AM

Starting to lose interest in the show. It's stuck in a time loop of its own making--an inability to think of a serious menace to the Flash that isn't a speedster, and an unrewarding obsession with time travel. The time travel plot was done in the first season and didn't need to be done again. Or if it was done again, I'd prefer to have the "Barry Allen gets castigated by his friends" done in a relatively concentrated way and to move on from there. One of the assets of the CW shows in theory is that they're a palate cleanser from the Snyder Murderverse version, and the Flash and Supergirl particularly function that way. Nobody wants mopey, angry Cisco Ramone. Agitated almost-Killer Snow Caitlin Frost is a bit better, but still kind of annoying. Guilt-ridden, furtive Barry Allen is just, please, stop it. What is especially driving me nuts, though, is that there's no sense of progression in the character: he's not getting better at being the Flash, he's actually getting kind of worse at it. He remains basically dumb about his powers most of the time, because otherwise the writers don't know how to explain how an adversary lasts more than 2 minutes against him.

But that's easy, and it's annoying that they don't seem to have the imagination to pull it off. Take Mirror Master--a colossally wasted version of the character who could potentially be half-season long or longer antagonist. A guy who isn't really there, who can jump into mirrors and glass to get away, who can project illusions, who can't be kept out of a place, who could be a terrifying manipulator (he sometimes has hypnotic powers in the comics)? Super-speed alone can't beat an enemy like that. And he's not an expensive CGI-fest villain like Gorilla Grodd.

I do have a sneaking suspicion that HR is Abra Kadabra (the drumstick would be his wand) but I almost hope not, since that's likely to lead to more time-travel stuff. Plus it is yet another example of the Flash team being dumb if so--you once again let a version of Harrison Wells hoodwink you?

The cast is really appealing and they've established a pretty good setting. They should be able to do more with it than what they're doing now.


Completely agree. I really enjoyed how his powers were growing because of the monster of the week formula was working so well to introduce enemies that seemingly would be hard to deal with if you had superspeed (smokey, freezey, invisiblely stuff).

I thought when they introduced Legends that they'd do away with time travel in other stories, but nope.

It's still better than most of the scripted TV out there at least for now.
NowhereMan
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Reply #316 on: November 30, 2016, 09:44:40 AM

The whole Flashpoint conceit was kind of interesting as a way to shake things up and get done with time travel but it's got the really annoying effect of resetting character growth. I'd be happy with Caitlin or Cisco getting a sidelined a bit more or having story arcs that don't really need their characters to change so radically. The whole thing of Caitlin getting powers that make her evil is just so forced it's painful. Getting ice powers and being terrified you'll turn into a psycho villain is fine, with her history it makes sense but they suddenly jump her to, 'welp I've got powers now so I better start with the murdering people who annoy me!'

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Threash
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Reply #317 on: November 30, 2016, 10:12:39 AM

Best part of the episode was Supergirl effortlessly beating the shit out of everyone.  Of course afterwards when she was actually trying she was completely useless.

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jgsugden
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Reply #318 on: November 30, 2016, 03:16:19 PM

Why didn't the Legends go back and stop Barry from making Flashpoint, again?

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Ironwood
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Reply #319 on: November 30, 2016, 03:29:16 PM

Because these shows are retarded.   One should only watch them for Benoist.

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Khaldun
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Reply #320 on: November 30, 2016, 03:50:50 PM

She's really great.

But I think Gustin is or at least was great as the Flash--in the first two seasons he was really nailing the characterization and bringing the fun.

Another thing that's always been an issue for the series is the truly bizarre decision to start it with Iris being Barry's adoptive sister. This means that there is always something off-putting about them getting together. It would have been more interesting in a way if they chose to use Flashpoint make Iris into Joe's daughter who *grew up* with her mother, not Joe (e.g., make Wally the guy who grew up with Barry). That could almost work--it would make Wally and Barry both friends and sibling rivals, and it would allow Iris to see Barry as a relative stranger who she is weirdly into. Even then, kind of unsettling but not the same way.
Ironwood
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Reply #321 on: November 30, 2016, 03:56:50 PM

It's not the acting, it's the writing.  Almost all the guys in Flash, Arrow and SG can put in the work when they try, but what they're asked to speak, emote and bring out is just shite in orders of magnitude with some occasional good shit.

Legends is pure boaby though, from top to bottom.



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Rasix
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Reply #322 on: November 30, 2016, 04:21:34 PM

I've been binging this lately from Netflix. End of season 2 killed it for me I think. That was really fucking stupid. I hate time travel so much.

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Khaldun
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Reply #323 on: November 30, 2016, 05:51:07 PM

It's just dumb when it's not thought out. I mean, ok, so if Reverse-Flash knows that time travel fucks stuff up and is always a mistake, why did he travel back to kill Barry as a little kid, then? We know that he didn't do that as a rookie mistake, that was after years and years of fighting the Flash and hating him more and more. At this point, you can't make heads or tails of it, really: Eobard Thawne still exists, apparently, despite Eddie Thawne supposedly preventing his existence; Eobard Thawne still seems to have gone into the past and become Harrison Wells, and that doesn't seem to have created "changes in the timeline"--everyone still remembers stuff happening as it happened in Season 1 (you'd think that's the thing that would have been *most* affected by Flashpoint, right?). In fact, in Flashpoint, why was Barry a detective in the first place? He only was motivated to become one to find his mother's real killer and exonerate his dad. The things that you'd think would be hardest to restore or most disrupted by Barry saving his mom don't seem to really be the things that matter--the only disrupted things were things that happened somewhere near the end of Season 2 or so. If they wanted to change the status quo to give Caitlin powers, they've already got several ways to do it--Earth-2 has infected Earth-1 with its own particle whatever, let's say (remember the mysterious thing in S1/S2 that there was something else besides the particle accelerator giving people powers?). If they wanted mopey Cisco Ramone for some reason, just write a story where his brother dies. If you want mopey Cisco who is also angry at Barry, make it so Barry doesn't answer the Flash-Signal because he's making out with Iris and Cisco's brother dies. If they want Iris mad with Joe, easy enough to write a reason for that. If they want Wally powered up, they already fucking laid the groundwork for that last season--they don't need any other narrative engine to make that happen!

Plus, the fucking Legends lecturing Barry about time travel. Please, people. Sarah barely stopped herself from killing Damien Dahrk--she'd at least be sympathetic to someone giving in. Martin Stein almost certainly has a daughter NOT because of Barry fucking with time but because Martin Stein fucked with time by talking to his younger self and getting his younger self to want to fuck his wife more often. Plus we can guess that Jay Garrick of Earth-3 has messed with time before. Plus we have time wraiths and faux-Time Lords and whatever. It makes Doctor Who look like Primer by comparison.

jgsugden
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Reply #324 on: November 30, 2016, 07:20:29 PM

Time travel is in the dna of the character at this point. Movie Flash was introduced while time traveling. You might as well be complaining about Dr Who time traveling.

And if one of you can point to any show that handles ongoing time travel well...

The closest I saw was Journeyman, and it had big flaws. Everything else takes huge grains of salt to stomach... Flash included.

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NowhereMan
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Reply #325 on: December 01, 2016, 03:11:45 AM

Khaldun's point really though is that the time travel is getting used as a writing gimmick to get them to places they want to be without putting any real thought into it. Time travel happens and *bang* these character changes occurred and now we can write stories about that, without actually earning those changes or set ups. Time travel as a thought through, integral element of a show can be ok but really it's just too easy for writers to abuse as a deus ex machina. And in this case I mean it less for resolutions to problems (I think even the laziest writers are usually aware that feels like a cop out) and more it being used as a set up for character arcs and personality changes that could be earned through plots but instead just feel like lazy 'the status quo is all shook up suddenly, look we have arcs to write again!'

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jgsugden
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Reply #326 on: December 02, 2016, 07:58:37 AM

Soooo... crossover totally sucked, yes?

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Threash
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Reply #327 on: December 02, 2016, 09:34:13 AM

I thought it was pretty awesome.  Other than the Supergirl episode, which was just a regular episode with barely a nod to the "crossover".  The Arrow and Flash episodes were specially very arrowy and flashy even given the crossover.

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jgsugden
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Reply #328 on: December 02, 2016, 12:41:17 PM

Supergirl episode was not really crossover - agreed.

The other three didn't make a lick of sense. 


These shows take a grain of salt to swallow normally, but this one... the entire salt shaker.




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NowhereMan
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Reply #329 on: December 05, 2016, 10:38:42 AM

Beyond having an actual super team on TV I really didn't like this much. The characters seemed to randomly change how they felt because of minor events, people came along or didn't for weird reasons that suddenly became apparent.
The writing is lazy and I'm only watching it because of super powers. I would like it to at least be light hearted fun again instead of relatively intricate plots that require everyone doing things to further the plot rather than for actual human reasons. Also I think the reveal of the Big Bad for this season was painful

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jgsugden
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Reply #330 on: December 05, 2016, 01:54:02 PM

I'm thinking that the quality control is spread too thin over 4 shows. 

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Khaldun
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Reply #331 on: December 05, 2016, 01:59:06 PM

Legends is certainly better than last season but it's still pretty goofy. Flash is really struggling to figure out what stories to tell that don't just treadmill around to what it's already done. Arrow is sort of back on track but I also think it never figured out what to be once it stopped being "Affectionate homage/ripoff of the Nolan Batman movies".
Ironwood
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Reply #332 on: December 05, 2016, 02:50:17 PM

No it isn't.

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Khaldun
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Reply #333 on: December 05, 2016, 03:13:55 PM

Yeah, that's a bit too generous.

"Less stupidly bad than last season". Maybe
HaemishM
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Reply #334 on: December 30, 2016, 12:52:54 PM

I still love Flash but the time-travel thing, specifically in the mid-season finale, is getting a bit much. It's starting to lean into the X-Men Days of Future Past Past Again But Not Really and Yet Another Future Past Again But Different. If you've followed X-Men at all, you know exactly what I mean.  Ohhhhh, I see.

Flashpoint was brought in for most likely one reason - Geoff Johns. He's now one of the head honchos on both the shows and the movies and while I often love his comic work, you can clearly see that some of the storylines are here because he did them in the comics originally. Flashpoint and Savitar are the prime examples. I don't think either story had the lasting power that he thinks they do. I think where these shows are still tripping up is in the one big bad guy behind an entire season's worth of shit. Sometimes, we really need to break that up with more freak of the week shows that have no connection to the big bad at all.

I loved the crossover but the resolution was weak, and you could tell it was mainly because of budget. That last battle should have been much bigger and less TV-feeling but it wasn't and I can only guess it was because of budget concerns. It felt like a scaled down "Battle of the Blackwater." However, the character moments they used such as the Arrow team getting kidnapped, I totally get. The Dominators removed the Arrow team because they were the most experienced and the most tactical. Also, it was because the Arrow episode needed to be focused on the Arrow team.

I still think Flash and Supergirl are the best of the 4 shows, with Arrow next and Legends as just a terrible, guilty pleasure right now. Legends is utter trash junk food that I watch because it's super heroes.

eldaec
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Reply #335 on: January 11, 2017, 03:52:41 PM

I just started watching this after losing it half way through season 1.

What it mostly needs is much more Micheal Scofield and Lincoln Burrows.

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jgsugden
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Reply #336 on: March 25, 2018, 10:08:27 PM

We've had nothing to say about any of the DC CW shows in over a year?  Did we all lose interest?

I was just thinking that if they ever put a Wonder Woman into these shows, they should cast Inbar Lavi from Imposters.

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HaemishM
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Reply #337 on: March 25, 2018, 11:04:15 PM

I'm steadily watching, though I've been trying to catch up on all of them before I watch the Crisis on Earth-X crossover. Flash is still good. Arrow is just draining my will to live. The whole "I have to give up being Green Arrow/Diggle is Arrow but can't fire a bow because DRUGS!/Everyone do something stupid even though you know better because DRAMA!" is really wearing on me.

jgsugden
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Reply #338 on: March 26, 2018, 12:04:10 AM

Supergirl - Beyond eye candy, This has never really grabbed me, but I watch it to keep up with the whole Arrowverse.
Legends of Tomorrow - They act like they think the show is going to be canceled.  My interest will skyrocket is Constantine does become a regular member, but it has been pretty weak this season.  However, I'd rather they just cancel Legends and make a Constantine show.
Flash - The best of these shows.  It has been the most watchable, but it feels like they've been treading water.  The 'season' story should have been a half season story.
Black Lightning - Not officially part of the Arrowverse, yet, but will likely get there eventually once there is a change in leadership.  I dropped it as the acting bothered me and there was no need to watch it to be completionist on the Arrowverse.
Arrow - Fallen so far - so very far.  They need to blow up his world and give him his grit back - or cancel it.


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Ironwood
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Reply #339 on: March 26, 2018, 03:25:35 AM

Wait, wait wait.  Is Black Lightning in this league ?

I was going to watch it with the wife, since it seemed more 'grown up', but I can't watch another one of these shows.  They're shite.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #340 on: March 26, 2018, 07:44:11 AM

How good is season 4? I was kinda disappointed in season three and after hearing what happened at Barry's wedding I basically said "fuck everything about arrowverse"

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jgsugden
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Reply #341 on: March 26, 2018, 09:18:47 AM

Wait, wait wait.  Is Black Lightning in this league ?

I was going to watch it with the wife, since it seemed more 'grown up', but I can't watch another one of these shows.  They're shite.

What I said above was "Not yet.".  They exist separaetly for now.  The current show runner has 'no plans' to cross over, but I do not think that lasts unless it outlasts the other shows.  I think we see a crosover eventually.  If you tell fans there is a hope of crossover, they push for it right away.

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Ironwood
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Reply #342 on: March 26, 2018, 09:54:53 AM

I honestly thought he was a brand new 'for TV' hero and wasn't based on a comic.


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HaemishM
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Reply #343 on: March 26, 2018, 11:37:57 AM

Black Lightining has been around the comic since the '70's. I think he was the Justice League's first black hero and kind of served the same role as the Falcon did to Captain America (though I don't think he ever was an official Justice League member).

Season 4 of Arrow was better than the Damien Dark season but still continued the tradition of "let's do stupid fucking things because DRAMA" writing. Season 5 has so far been nothing but "I will do this stupid thing because my character needs an arc to give me something to do besides exist but goddamn I really should know better than to do this stupid thing." The show just doesn't seem to know where to go if everyone isn't miserable and hiding their feelings.

NowhereMan
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Reply #344 on: March 26, 2018, 12:19:34 PM

Wasn't Black Lightning in Teen Titans? Or Batman Brave and the Bold? I'm sure I remember him from more than just some of those massive cross over DC titles I read.

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HaemishM
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Reply #345 on: March 26, 2018, 12:20:25 PM

He was in Brave and the Bold and he was a major player in Batman and the Outsiders.

Ironwood
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Reply #346 on: March 26, 2018, 12:56:09 PM

Christ.  Thanks for the lesson then, I did not know.

DC.  Skip.


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jgsugden
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Reply #347 on: March 26, 2018, 04:06:08 PM

NoWhereMan: You may also be thinking of Static Shock (or just Static in the comics), a younger hero with similar powers.  They'll likely fold him into this show somewhere.


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Raguel
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Reply #348 on: March 26, 2018, 07:35:58 PM


There was also Black Vulcan in the Superfriends but that was a long time ago.
rattran
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Reply #349 on: March 26, 2018, 08:28:27 PM

Supervolt! He's got lightning... in his pants.
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