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Author Topic: New Thor will be a woman  (Read 12146 times)
Raguel
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Reply #70 on: July 18, 2014, 12:38:05 PM

Girls of Thunder?

Goddamnit, that made my balls shrink back up into my body.  swamp poop

Yeah that line won't win any Eisners lol. I only posted because

Khaldun
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Reply #71 on: July 18, 2014, 04:05:37 PM

Could also be the SHIELD agent that Thor's been hanging out with lately.
Raguel
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Reply #72 on: July 18, 2014, 06:13:14 PM

Yeah that's Roz. I want it to be her just to add that extra awkwardness between them.  why so serious?
ezrast
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Reply #73 on: July 18, 2014, 09:06:08 PM

However, giving us a black Captain America for the sake of giving us a black Captain America is racist.  Giving us a female Thor for the sake of giving us a female Thor is sexist.  You're doing these things because of race / gender issues.  One of these types of things in the natural flow of a story - no problem.  Doing a bunch of these things in a short span for the sake of doing it: Offensive.
The whole idea of "making a character black for the sake of having a black character" only makes sense if you live in a world where everyone is white by default. Constantly reinventing the same characters is kind of stupid but if you're going to do it anyway, and decades of comics history shows that they are, then some of them should get reinvented as gay black women for no other reason than that some people are gay black women, and being a gay black woman has no bearing on a character's ability to kick ass and shoot lightning. Yeah, publishers and the media are going to make it look like a publicity stunt no matter how cool the authors try to play it, but we'll all get over it eventually. In the long term, restricting oneself to round after round of beefy, white bread assholes to avoid the specter of "race issues" is doing nobody any favors, I promise.
Khaldun
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Reply #74 on: July 18, 2014, 09:09:34 PM

Not to mention that making a new character who is defined not by being an interesting character but by being the lesbian black atheist or whatever is potentially just as bad as saying, "Oh, let's make a black Iron Man for a while". It's really a question of how it's done.

See for confirmation: Extrano, and many others sort of like him.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #75 on: July 18, 2014, 11:55:39 PM

Ran into this on FB (attributation got lost along the way):

Disney owns Marvel.
Marvel owns Thor.
Thor is the child of a king.
Thor is now a girl.
QED, Thor is a Disney Princess.
 Rimshot

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
HaemishM
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Reply #76 on: July 19, 2014, 01:46:56 AM

It all makes sense now.  ACK!

Soulflame
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Reply #77 on: July 19, 2014, 11:49:46 AM

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's now a non-zero chance that Natalie Portman will be Thor in Thor 3?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 12:04:18 PM by Soulflame »
Chimpy
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Reply #78 on: July 19, 2014, 12:13:16 PM

Maybe they will extend the little girl's storyline from Adventures in Babysitting to explain how this all happened?


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Sjofn
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Reply #79 on: July 21, 2014, 05:38:51 PM

Maybe they will extend the little girl's storyline from Adventures in Babysitting to explain how this all happened?

I watched that movie way too many fucking times as a kid.

God Save the Horn Players
Evildrider
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Reply #80 on: July 21, 2014, 05:41:02 PM

Maybe they will extend the little girl's storyline from Adventures in Babysitting to explain how this all happened?

I watched that movie way too many fucking times as a kid.

Same, but more cuz I loved Elisabeth Shue.
Sir T
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Reply #81 on: July 22, 2014, 07:01:19 PM

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's now a non-zero chance that Natalie Portman will be Thor in Thor 3?

She might have to eat a sandwich in that case.

Be principled, but not too principled.
01101010
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Reply #82 on: July 22, 2014, 07:37:03 PM


"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
jgsugden
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Reply #83 on: July 23, 2014, 10:05:43 AM

However, giving us a black Captain America for the sake of giving us a black Captain America is racist.  Giving us a female Thor for the sake of giving us a female Thor is sexist.  You're doing these things because of race / gender issues.  One of these types of things in the natural flow of a story - no problem.  Doing a bunch of these things in a short span for the sake of doing it: Offensive.
The whole idea of "making a character black for the sake of having a black character" only makes sense if you live in a world where everyone is white by default.
No.  What they are doing here is part of a series of moves.  The moves seem, so far, to be based upon changing gender and race as the highlighted feature.  They are targeting race and gender as a feature upon which to base change.  When you utilize race and gender as a mechanism for decision making, with no significant reason to do so, it is racism/gender bias.
Quote
Constantly reinventing the same characters is kind of stupid but if you're going to do it anyway, and decades of comics history shows that they are, then some of them should get reinvented as gay black women for no other reason than that some people are gay black women, and being a gay black woman has no bearing on a character's ability to kick ass and shoot lightning.
Agreed.  And if one character were to undergo that change, I'd be fine with it as discussed above.  However, when you make those types of changes as a series of actions, it takes on a different quality.  It is a campaign to say something about gender and race.  However, they're doing it in a way that is offensive to me for the reaspons above. 
Quote
Yeah, publishers and the media are going to make it look like a publicity stunt no matter how cool the authors try to play it, but we'll all get over it eventually. In the long term, restricting oneself to round after round of beefy, white bread assholes to avoid the specter of "race issues" is doing nobody any favors, I promise.
And the proper way to solve that is to introduce non "white bread asshole" characters that can generate a following of their own, rather than making the statement that you need to ride on the coat tails of the white malecharacters to make a non "white male asshole " popular.  You don't fight gender and race bias with a counterforce of gender and race bias.  You fight it by treatening everyone equal and letting them stand on their own merits.

I miss Good Eats.  *Sniff*
Numtini
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Reply #84 on: July 23, 2014, 10:25:23 AM

So we had Batman. Then Batman broke his back and then died and both times Dick Grayson became Batman because he was his protege/sidekick for several decades.

Now if only Captain America had a protege/sidekick he'd been teamed with repeatedly for the last forty years, then he could the shield and they wouldn't need some random black guy.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Velorath
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Reply #85 on: July 23, 2014, 03:23:36 PM

Azrael was Batman's replacement when Batman got his back broken.
Surlyboi
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eat a bag of dicks


Reply #86 on: July 23, 2014, 09:51:30 PM

Quote
A...BLACK Captain America? No offense but Captain America should ALWAYS be white. He is an ICON.

Goodbye, Marvel. I'm off to DC and IDW!

More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/news/comics/2014/7/16/22895/its_time_for_an_all-new_captain_america#ixzz38LlYY18D

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Raguel
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Reply #87 on: July 24, 2014, 12:11:16 AM

Quote
more people are commenting in here than actually buy any cap book

Pretty much sums up my opinion of both of these changes. The people doing most of the whining haven't read the books in years anyway, so eff em.
Evildrider
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Reply #88 on: July 24, 2014, 12:23:33 AM

I don't actually mind the change, other than the fact they are sidelining Steve Rogers.  I think if they are doing this, Falcon isn't a bad choice at all as a person to step into the role.

When it comes to my favorite characters, I just prefer them to be not fucked with in general.  The only thing I have against the whole Thor thing is why would the female "Thor" not just have her own name like past people that picked up the hammer?
palmer_eldritch
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Reply #89 on: July 24, 2014, 06:05:03 AM

The idea that someone can become the new Captain America seems perfectly logical to me. They put on the costume and maybe get the nod of approval from the old Cap, or the Goverment or Army or something (because it was the army that proclaimed Steve Rogers as Captain America in the first place I think?) and away you go.

I always thought Thor was an actual person (deity?) so the idea that a different person can become Thor, even if they have his hammer, is a bit harder to make sense of.
Numtini
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Reply #90 on: July 24, 2014, 06:51:08 AM

I think 90% of the grief about "Thor is changing into a girl" would have been alleviated if they had instead said that Thor loses his hammer and a woman will take up Mjolnir.

Not announcing it on The View would have helped as well. I'm not sure who's genius idea that was, but women are not a single demographic and I'm pretty sure that a venn diagram of "geek girls" and "women who watch the view" would be two circles that don't touch.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #91 on: July 24, 2014, 09:28:03 AM

But its the Venn diagram of Disney that counts.

See to me the story isn't about the gender of Thor (Because obviously his gender didn't change) but the cheap abuse of the English Language into some sort of feminist win. Which again, is cheap, insulting, pandering and nonsense to anyone with a pulse.

Now turning Asgard in post-gender society that people change gender at their leisure and Thor becoming a women by choice, now that would some thing to talk about.

"Me am play gods"
Simond
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Reply #92 on: July 24, 2014, 07:01:27 PM

So we had Batman. Then Batman broke his back and then died and both times Dick Grayson became Batman because he was his protege/sidekick for several decades.

Now if only Captain America had a protege/sidekick he'd been teamed with repeatedly for the last forty years, then he could the shield and they wouldn't need some random black guy.
Yeah, they did that a couple of years ago between Steve getting not-killed at the end of Civil War and coming back.

You're not having much luck with your comic nerdery today, are you?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
Sir T
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Reply #93 on: July 24, 2014, 09:14:37 PM

If they are gonna retire Cap then this is the way they do it. Put old Steve in the HQ giving tactical advice and having another guy take over the Shield.

Them saying Thor is replaced by Thor with boobs is totally not the same thing. When Odin killed Yimir he didn't say "Ok I'm Yimir" He still stayed Odin. Captain America is the symbol and the costume, but the individual wearing the title can change. Thor is not a position, being the god of Thunder is the position that the individual Thor holds.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone else taking the position of god of thunder if they want to write a good story of someone doing that. Marvel trying some existential BS to try and generate controversy is just going to make this fall flat on its face, as sometime or other the mask has to drop from "Thor"'s face to reveal Blondie. Unless they will handwave it by saying "this is the Thor of the alternative universe of bad feminism" which would be even more nauseating and would not get them out of the hole in any case.

Be principled, but not too principled.
ezrast
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Reply #94 on: July 25, 2014, 08:35:42 AM

-snip-
No.  What they are doing here is part of a series of moves.  The moves seem, so far, to be based upon changing gender and race as the highlighted feature.  They are targeting race and gender as a feature upon which to base change.  When you utilize race and gender as a mechanism for decision making, with no significant reason to do so, it is racism/gender bias.
Quote
-snip-
Agreed.  And if one character were to undergo that change, I'd be fine with it as discussed above.  However, when you make those types of changes as a series of actions, it takes on a different quality.  It is a campaign to say something about gender and race.  However, they're doing it in a way that is offensive to me for the reaspons above.  
Quote
-snip-
And the proper way to solve that is to introduce non "white bread asshole" characters that can generate a following of their own, rather than making the statement that you need to ride on the coat tails of the white malecharacters to make a non "white male asshole " popular.  You don't fight gender and race bias with a counterforce of gender and race bias.  You fight it by treatening everyone equal and letting them stand on their own merits.
Look, I'm not trying to antagonize you here because I trust you have good intentions, but the actual consequences of what you're arguing for don't line up with what you seem to value. Let's pretend I have a friend who believes the following things:

a) White people are at risk of having their culture and values eroded by minorities in America, whose power base is constantly increasing. We should make an effort to preserve what we have.
b) The struggles of women and minorities in this country ended years ago. Times are tough for everyone and we have more significant issues to address.
c) America truly is the land of opportunity, where anyone willing to work hard and apply themself has an equal chance at becoming successful.

Do we agree that my friend is full of bullshit? Because if he were to form an opinion on this issue, it would look a lot like yours: "One or two blacks or women are okay in my comics I guess (some of my best friends are black, after all), but for most characters it's wrong and it shouldn't become a trend. It's wrong to use race and gender issues as a means to gain attention; that's just pandering to controversy. If minorities want to see their own people in comics, they're free to go off and make their own comics somewhere else where I won't have to pay attention."

What a lot of people don't really recognize about social change is that it's a process, and the intermediate steps of the process (publishers pushing the "hot button" race issues, -or- darkies gettin' uppity and takin' mah characters) don't typically look like what we want the end result to be (diverse, prejudice-free fairyland). But pushing against those intermediate steps is, in effect, no different from pushing against the end goal. Ultimately, I don't want minorities to have to "ride on the coattails" of white dudes any more than you do. But if that's how the issue has to be forced, I'm all for it. Anything else is just perpetuating the status quo. And the status quo is really good at making well-intentioned people want to perpetuate it, which is why it's the status quo.

Look at it this way, there are three scenarios here:
1) The ideal, in which nobody thinks to even bring up race or gender issues because everyone is equal
2) Female Thor, black Cap, and Muslim Ms Marvel because some bean-counter at Marvel thinks this "diversity" thing could bring in more cash
3) All white dudes, all the time
You're arguing against 2 because it's not as good as 1, but the alternative to 2 isn't 1, it's 3. "Treating everyone equal and letting them stand up on their own merits" isn't a viable transformation strategy in a world where the odds are stacked against minorities from the get-go.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 08:37:58 AM by ezrast »
Numtini
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Reply #95 on: July 25, 2014, 09:10:06 AM

And once again, Lewis' Law is proven correct.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Wizgar
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Reply #96 on: July 25, 2014, 11:29:13 AM

Oh god please don't talk about "social change" when discussing something as stupid as this. It's not even progressive. Oh boy look everyone, a female woman in a comic book, and I bet she won't even have to make anyone a sammich. What a crazy modern world we have in 2014.
Khaldun
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Reply #97 on: July 25, 2014, 12:03:43 PM

At one point in the comic's history, Marvel's Odin WAS the replacement for another Odin.

And in the current book, when we see Future Thor, he's All-Father Thor--the All-Father part having been Odin's title pretty much since Kirby & Lee wrote the book. He even has the eye-patch.

Never make categorical statements about what would be silly in a comic book if they did it, because the odds are they already did it a long time ago.
ezrast
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Reply #98 on: July 25, 2014, 12:11:27 PM

Oh god please don't talk about "social change" when discussing something as stupid as this. It's not even progressive. Oh boy look everyone, a female woman in a comic book, and I bet she won't even have to make anyone a sammich. What a crazy modern world we have in 2014.
Oh, I don't disagree with you at all. It's not particularly progressive, and I honestly don't know why this is a bigger deal than any other "dramatic" character change that stays canon for all of 6-12 months before getting rebooted or retconned. That's why I'm okay with derailing the thread into my little soapbox routine, which isn't really about Thor.
jgsugden
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Reply #99 on: August 18, 2014, 03:01:51 PM

Ezrast, if I believed those were the only 3 scenarios, I would not have said anything.  I suggested that there is a 4th.

My idea for the right path forward is just that - moving forward.  Not digging into the past and trying to refit it to give it a polished lie.

People *do* embrace well written/acted/embodied characters of different races and genders.  We have a lot of examples of characters that are not WHITE HETEROSEXUAL MEN that have been very popular across a wide base of fans.  The things I tend to notice in these characters is that they're generally not reactionary characters that are some transparent metaphor for race or gender issues.  They're not trying to prove they are worthy of attention from the main stream - they just give us a product worth enjoying.

Now, there are a lot of idiots that have closed themselves off and refuse to consider entertainment featuring anything other than a white male.  Screw 'em.  They're missing out.  Forcing things on them by taking away their favorite toys and replacing them with toys they oppose is not going to enlighten them.  What does enlighten them is seeing others enjoy new toys and having it spawn their interest organically.  People never respond well to being forced... they respond well to persuasion.

I miss Good Eats.  *Sniff*
MediumHigh
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Reply #100 on: August 31, 2014, 05:42:03 PM

Its kinda funny.

Instead of putting work into creating interesting black (minority) characters like Cable, Spawn, Static Shock, etc.

We get "WE NEED NEW READERS, QUICK MAKE WONDER WOMAN ASIAN!!!". How come Thor can't have kids and not pass his hammer down? Tini bop avengers movie and thor god of thunder practically did that. This goes in the same don't read bin as "younger edgier ghost rider and lobo"

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Lantyssa
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Reply #101 on: August 31, 2014, 08:50:33 PM

Speaking of diversity, I'm really digging the new Ms. Marvel book.  I get a guaranteed couple of side-splitting laughs out of every issue.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
Khaldun
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Reply #102 on: August 31, 2014, 09:20:09 PM

It's very good. The newest one has some hilarious stuff when she meets Wolverine.
Fordel
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Reply #103 on: September 01, 2014, 02:48:39 AM

It's also doing something that very few new comics have managed in like a decade, get brand new readers.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Numtini
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Reply #104 on: September 02, 2014, 08:23:17 AM

The first issue of Ms. just showed up on Unlimited a few weeks ago and enjoying it so far. In addition to new readers, I'm hearing it's also one of the few books where digital outsells print--presumably because girls don't frequent the comic books store and/or feel comfortable there.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
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