Ant-man

[kaid]

If they can pull off a super hero movie with a tree and a talking raccoon as two of the main breakout stars I will give antman a chance.

The main difference there is those two are actually likeable.


Maybe this is a sleeper hit, but I don't feel it. Like with GotG, people were all 'what is this shit?' when they heard about it, but after that first trailer pretty much everyone was buying what they were selling. With Antman, I don't feel or see any of that anticipation that other Marvel Movies brought.

Well they did a good job making them likeable they could have very easily failed badly with either of those and the movie would have had much less impact than it did.

[sickrubik]

A talking raccoon and tree hint at a wacky, interesting movie.

Well. The point is that they made a GOOD movie with those characters. It could have gone very very poorly.

[jgsugden]

I think this does Thor level business when all is said and done.  Not a top tier Marvel hit, but a cash cow by common standards.

[Margalis]

Imho marvel need more films that are not about Thanos or Loki.

In GoG the main bad-guy was just the errand-boy of Thanos. In Age of Ultron you know that the Avengers are going to fight Thanos in future movies. In both cases the bad guys feel throw-away to me - they're just filler until we meet the real boss bad guy.

Maybe Ant-Man will be better in this regard in that you don't really expect him to be fighting Thanos so there's no sense that the villain is just wasting time until the real villain shows up.

I think Marvel has handled Thanos very poorly in general. He's not really impressive, imposing, cool looking or sinister, and by constantly teasing him and announcing future movies he'll be in it takes away from the current movies. Before Age of Ultron came out we already knew that the Avengers would have two movies fighting Thanos - I don't see why we need to know that. We can always suppose that there will be more of a successful franchise, but revealing bits of the plot just make the current "phase" feel irrelevant.

[DraconianOne]

I think Marvel has handled Thanos very poorly in general. He's not really impressive, imposing, cool looking or sinister, and by constantly teasing him and announcing future movies he'll be in it takes away from the current movies.

I find myself agreeing with you for once. 

One of the major problems I had with GotG - a film I otherwise thought was great - was the presence of Thanos and, more specifically, his lack of reaction to Ronan taking the infinity gem for himself. Everyone in the Galaxy is apparently afraid of Thanos and what he's able to do but we, the audience (and non comic readers) are still left wondering why because we've only been told that he's a terrifyingly unstoppable force - we just haven't seen any evidence that he deserves this reputation.

[Evildrider]

I think Marvel has handled Thanos very poorly in general. He's not really impressive, imposing, cool looking or sinister, and by constantly teasing him and announcing future movies he'll be in it takes away from the current movies.

I find myself agreeing with you for once. 

One of the major problems I had with GotG - a film I otherwise thought was great - was the presence of Thanos and, more specifically, his lack of reaction to Ronan taking the infinity gem for himself. Everyone in the Galaxy is apparently afraid of Thanos and what he's able to do but we, the audience (and non comic readers) are still left wondering why because we've only been told that he's a terrifyingly unstoppable force - we just haven't seen any evidence that he deserves this reputation.

Other than the fact everyone is scared of him?  Loki was obviously afraid of him and Ronan backed down from him until he got his hands on an infinity gem. 

[Ironwood]

That's not really evidence tho.

[eldaec]

Also, Disney are making a promise they are not likely to be able to deliver on within their stock action movie serial format.

When Thanos finally does show up I don't imagine he is going to be any more awesome than HYDRA, Ronan, Loki, or Ultron. I expect people will be wondering why it was necessary to build expectations over six years.

[Ironwood]

That depends on how many Avengers he kills.

[DraconianOne]

Other than the fact everyone is scared of him?  Loki was obviously afraid of him and Ronan backed down from him until he got his hands on an infinity gem. 

That's telling us, not showing us.

Compare Darth Vader in ANH. Second time we see him, he interrogates and then kills the rebel captain easily - with one hand.  Shortly afterwards, he uses the Force to choke the shit out of an insolent officer. We, the audience, see that Vader is not someone you give backchat to or otherwise fuck with. Yet we also see he's not in command but is second to Tarkin. Do we get told why? No - we eventually see that Tarkin is a man who is more than prepared to order the destruction of a planet with millions of people just to make a point.

Ronan stood up to Thanos and would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky kids and their pet rodent. You want us to believe that Thanos is someone who deserves the fear he inspires then we should have seen him slap that motherfucker down. He even got betrayed by Nebula. And Gamora.

[Khaldun]

I think Marvel has handled Thanos very poorly in general. He's not really impressive, imposing, cool looking or sinister, and by constantly teasing him and announcing future movies he'll be in it takes away from the current movies.

I find myself agreeing with you for once. 

One of the major problems I had with GotG - a film I otherwise thought was great - was the presence of Thanos and, more specifically, his lack of reaction to Ronan taking the infinity gem for himself. Everyone in the Galaxy is apparently afraid of Thanos and what he's able to do but we, the audience (and non comic readers) are still left wondering why because we've only been told that he's a terrifyingly unstoppable force - we just haven't seen any evidence that he deserves this reputation.

Yeah, it has all been tell and not show for Thanos. He actually hasn't done a damn thing to make him seem scary or threatening, really. We don't really know much about his motives (movie-wise), and in retrospect all the stuff about the Infinity Stones doesn't even make sense. (He'll "do it himself" now, but that doesn't really clarify what he was doing before. Why give Loki one of the stones? Did he give Loki one of the stones? Why not just go get the stones himself? The one Star-Lord found was not exactly heavily defended or difficult to find. Is he trying to binge-watch something on his DVR and doesn't want to distract from that?)   The only reason his brief appearance have created some anticipation is that comic-book fans know what the guy is all about. He doesn't even look all that imposing in the films.

[HaemishM]

I think you can lay that all down to "WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HE'S PLANNING." I mean, he's supposed to be a mystery in the context of the movies and a scary one at that. He's gathering the Infinity Gems but we don't know why, nor do we know whether Ronan's use or non-use of the Gem would have fallen into his plans or not. Thanos may not have given a shit if Ronan used the stones to destroy the Nova Corps since he obviously figured he'd be able to take it from the "impudent whelp" whenever he wanted.

I'm not saying that the Thanos parts haven't been all tell and no show BUT... we also don't know what the end game is, so we can't really say that the use of the gems hasn't been part of his plan. Hell, he gave one of the stones that he had to Loki to go fuck some shit up on Earth, so he obviously didn't have a problem with Ronan fucking some shit up on Xandar.

[jgsugden]

You folks have no imagination and no faith.

Marvel has done a lot in the movies and on TV. None of it sucks. Some is awesome. Everything is part of a huge plan. It iisn't a highly detailed plan, and they tweak it a lot, but the major beats are planned carefully.

They have a plan for Thanos. They're very aware of how hard it is to make a villain like him trump an Ultra or Ronan with gem. They also need to make him a bigger threat than the mystic foes in Dr. Strange. If they dhow that threat now in full detail, it would have no punch in three years when Infinity War comes.

Be patient and expect the same quality we've seen in the main storyline when it comes time for these teases to pay off.

[Lakov_Sanite]

None of it sucks.

 

[DraconianOne]

If they dhow that threat now in full detail, it would have no punch in three years when Infinity War comes.

You're entirely missing the point but thanks for playing.

[Merusk]

That's telling us, not showing us.

Awesome point and something Hollywood, not just Marvel has been lacking in the last few years. We're getting lots of exposition, little action. Comics movies I give a bit of leeway to because they are primarily exposition devices alongside exaggerated pictures.

However, you clarified for me something I hadn't fully realized was a problem. I'd known that something about Thanatos as the 'big bad' was off and hadn't thought about it to really come to a conclusion. There's lots of exposition about how he's a big baddie, little evidence beyond a few muggy scenes where people cower for no real reason. As a viewer I have no reason to care about why this guy matters than I've been told to. 

[Samwise]

Awesome point and something Hollywood, not just Marvel has been lacking in the last few years. We're getting lots of exposition, little action.

This is exactly why Mad Max is the best action movie made in at least a decade.

[jgsugden]

If they dhow that threat now in full detail, it would have no punch in three years when Infinity War comes.

You're entirely missing the point but thanks for playing.

Short.  Quippy.  Doesn't actually involve anything to support your position.  f13 at its finest. 

The point I'm responding to seems to be: They keep showing Thanos and not showing why he is a threat - he looks like a lame duck.

That is what is behind comments like "all tell and no show", "should have seen him slap them down", etc... 

If they show what he can do now, it lacks punch when he is the main villain later.  This is pretty basic stuff that has been used in TV for decades.  Tried and true.  Complaining a tease isn't the full frontal is what misses the point.

[sickrubik]

I don't think there's any way to prove an opinion.

As much as I love the Marvel films... they've dropped the ball a bit on Thanos so far.

[Fordel]

It's easy to drop the ball on Thanos. He's no where near as awesome a villain as a lot of people think he is to begin with. He's a less interesting Darkseid.

[Ironwood]

Wow.  That's bad.

[sickrubik]

I don't even remotely agree with that.

[Evildrider]

I don't even remotely agree with that.

If you mean Thanos, I agree.  He's got way more character depth than Darkseid.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Movie Thanos has less depth than Stan Lee cameos.

[sickrubik]

With that, I am a true believer.

[Merusk]

I don't even remotely agree with that.

Yeah, he forgot "Emo" in there.

Darkseid wants to conquer all life, feeding on the despair. Thanatos is in love with death.  

[Ironwood]

See, both of them sound retarded.

I know all about Thanos now, but all I know about DS was what Smallville taught me.  Which I assume was mostly bollocks.

[HaemishM]

THANOS. Not Thanatos.

Also, we don't know what Thanos is in the movies. There's simply not enough information other than he's supposed to be a bad ass evil thingie but we don't know why or how. He is literally rumors and whispers.

[Nevermore]

Thanatos is in love with death.  

How narcissistic of him. 

[DraconianOne]

Short.  Quippy.  Doesn't actually involve anything to support your position.  f13 at its finest.  

The point I'm responding to seems to be: They keep showing Thanos and not showing why he is a threat - he looks like a lame duck.

That is what is behind comments like "all tell and no show", "should have seen him slap them down", etc...  

If they show what he can do now, it lacks punch when he is the main villain later.  This is pretty basic stuff that has been used in TV for decades.  Tried and true.  Complaining a tease isn't the full frontal is what misses the point.

 

He looks like a lame duck because in GotG that's how he came across. Watch it again. Ronan isn't actually afraid of Thanos - certainly not enough to make demands of him nor to refrain from killing the Chitauri guy. There's no deference, no respect, no fear.  In the second scene, it's even worse - Ronan defies Thanos to his face and basically gets away with it, leaving Thanos spluttering. "Boy, you should reconsider?"  Well why? Why should he reconsider? Because you're big and purple? Why should we, the audience, think "Shit! Ronan's really in for it now!"

But you want to talk back to basics then fine.  Opening scene of The Godfather. Fantastic film, way above and beyond comic books but the interplay of that scene is quite basic. Vito Corleone commands respect and Bonasera is humble before him, even when scolded. He submits, kisses Corleones hand, offers anything he wants. We don't need to see Corleone do anything to know that he's a man who commands respect and fear because of the reaction of the man he's talking to.

Or, more comic book like, take the Empire Strikes Back: we already have a film to establish how bad ass Vader is. We're vaguely aware of the Emperor but when we see him, the giant hologram head, Vader cannot bow low enough. This fearsome monster kowtows before another - so how powerful must the man be who has the monster on a leash. He doesn't stand there doing his nails saying "Yep, whatever, you skinny little white ass punk!"

Even Voldemort was more fearsome than what we saw of Thanos in GotG. You had several films of hearing about him (or not - everyone was too afraid to say his name), you meet some of his loyal servants and see how nasty and cruel they so know that if they worship Voldermort, he must be bad. When he does turn up in the fourth film, people start dying on screen. More significantly, by the last films, his loyal servants - previously arrogant and proud - are fucking terrified of him and terrified of failing him. Because he commands respect and fear.

In Marvel films, nearest comparison is probably Red Skull. You get a hint of his power and ruthlessness when he's searching for the Tesseract but you also see that everyone else is in his thrall and afraid of him.

So the basics are - if you're not going to show us even a fraction of what someone can do then show us how people react to him. So far, Thanos has done fuck all, his daughters have betrayed him and Ronan stood up to him and threatened him. With no repercussions. To go back a little on what I was saying, perhaps they would have been better off telling and not showing and not letting us see Thanos at all in GotG - leave at as more of the rumours and whispers Haemish mentioned. That would have at least preserved some mystery about him rather than letting us get the impression that he is lame fucking duck because he just impotently sits there. Shit, they could have made him laugh at Ronan's threat and that would have left a better impression.

So you can be all the fanboy you want and tell me to be patient and have faith but don't piss on my face and tell me it's raining. From a movie-goers perspective, I don't think there's evidence that Thanos currently deserves the reputation ascribed to him nor see any evidence as to why he might be the focus of the next two Avengers films.

[Velorath]

I don't think there's any way to prove an opinion.

As much as I love the Marvel films... they've dropped the ball a bit on Thanos so far.

I think they're just building up the threat of the Infinity Stones more than the threat of Thanos himself. The real challenge is going to be concluding that storyline in any sort of satisfying way given the power level of the Stones..

[Lakov_Sanite]

Voldemort is a great example.  Since the books were always written with an end game, it gives them great opportunity to build who Voldemort is, why people should be afraid of him and even introduce bits of him while still having a protagonist for each book.

Marvel however has never had that type of end game because they want their films to all stand alone rather than be a strict series like potter was.  Unfortunately when you do that you can't build up a cohesive world and where by the end of potter you hate voldemort before you've even met him.  With marvel, you will still likely be trying to figure out who the fuck thanos is and why you should care when he appears on screen.

[jgsugden]

... and if you folks were posting about Voldemort after Chamber of Secrets or Prisoner of Azkaban, you'd be saying, "What a fucking loser of a villain.  He dies before the books even start when he tries to kill a kid.  Then he lives in someone's head... until he dies because the guy he is living in touches the kid.  Then they have him as some kind of spirit possessing a girl ... why the heck didn't he possess the kid that killed him rather than a little girl?  And once he possesses her and hears over and over how Harry killed him - why doesn't he just poison Harry?"

Ronan has a freaking Infinity Gem when he gives Thanos the finger.  He can destroy worlds with a touch and he knows it.  He flips off Thanos because he's suddenly one of the most powerful beings in the universe.  And when he does - and everyone else is watching him in fear - Thanos stares him down and tells him off. 

And doesn't this discussion belong in the Marvel thread, not the Ant-man thread where we're unlikely to see GotG, Thanos, etc...?

[Fordel]

See, both of them sound retarded.

I know all about Thanos now, but all I know about DS was what Smallville taught me.  Which I assume was mostly bollocks.

I have no idea what DS was like on Smallville, I only know of him from the Justice League cartoons (where he is voiced by Michael Ironside, which helps A LOT). His man thing is he is a self important asshole who wants to unmake reality in order to remake it in his image, as that would obviously be superior. He already rules his own planet, has millions if not billions of blindly loyal followers and generally has the ability to do what ever the fuck he wants more or less. He is who they throw at the Justice League whenever they want the League to actually lose (at least temporarily).

In every bit of media I've seen Thanos in so far, he's like a budget version of DS, with a even sillier goal. 'Do whatever it takes to make death love me' . 

[Lantyssa]

I don't think they're trying to play Thanos up as the scary bad at this point.  They're just letting audiences know he has a hand in all the bad stuff going on.  When they're ready to show he's tough, they'll do so.