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Khaldun
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Reply #105 on: February 20, 2014, 06:34:53 AM

When I think about issues I have with physical or mental health that are not at a point where I must deal with them because I have collapsed or can't get out of bed or am in pain so unbearable that I can't fake it or tough it out, the greatest disincentive I have to the next step is talking to someone who is evangelizing about what I must do, about what always works, about what is true and not true. I very much find it helpful to hear personal testimonies and descriptions. I run away instantly when I feel like I'm being sold something.

One of the problems with people who lose weight, stop smoking, improve the quality and duration of their erections, succeed in therapy, finally have an orgasm, overcome chronic back pain, get rid of writer's block, fix their marriage, stop abusing alcohol, find spiritual satisfaction, get in a good relationship, find a way to get rid of planar fascitis, raise their kid right, stop sleep apnea, stop being bullied and so on is that they are so relieved, so happy, to have repaired something that was making their lives miserable and to discover a different quality of life that they want everyone to have the same emancipation. They want to share the good news. This is ok for a while, in the emotional rush of that change. But eventually it can either curdle into a kind of narcissism: what fixed me must fix everyone, because I'm the standard! or it becomes the therapy: unless I can convince everyone to get off the booze, take the pill, do the exercise, follow the procedure, see the specialist, repeat the mantra, then my therapy will stop working, because convincing other people is part of how I convince myself. Which is just second-order narcissism.

The generous thing to do--and not everyone can or should--is to share a story. Don't worry about what your story unlocks for other people, because other people are the best and worst mystery in the life of humanity.
Amarr HM
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Reply #106 on: February 20, 2014, 07:11:49 AM

Good points Khaldun.

My clinically depressed relation just rang me because some asshole just stole her lunch while she was in the toilet. I couldn't help but chuckle at the temerity of the lunch-thief and she, despite her rage, commenced to laugh too. Helps to have a sense of humour, albeit a twisted one.

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sickrubik
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Reply #107 on: February 20, 2014, 09:13:00 AM

And again, to those that have said otherwise... mental illness is not a thing you cure like a cold. For most of us it's going to be a lifelong fight.

You can't cure a cold either, just treat the symptoms.

Sure, but in context, semantics. Short term illness vs long term illness.


Who exactly said otherwise ?

There's been enough chatter in this thread that seems to fail to understand how hard the fight can be. Jeff Kelly actually spoke on some of this very well, and Khaldun hammered it home.

I speak as someone who has had to fight against depression/OCD my entire life, so I feel passionate when I see shit like this.

The bottom line and the only advice is to talk to your MD. There are far too many variables for anyone here to say there is The Right Way. But as Khaldun said, share your story. The stigma has to end. That is one thing I very much love about the area I live in. They've made mental illness awareness a major thing. Probably helps that a state hospital is in the area.

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Phildo
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Reply #108 on: February 20, 2014, 10:20:49 AM

sickrubik
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Reply #109 on: February 20, 2014, 10:45:08 AM

That is pretty freaking great.

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Reply #110 on: February 20, 2014, 11:31:06 AM

Stories?  Probably.  Mine is a bit mysterious because I really can't tell you what it was that my therapist did.  She was so great.  We just had conversations, for the most part.

Well, OK, she did suggest some things for me to try.  I was having anxiety issues.  I suppose these came from feelings of STUFF that I apparently have dealt with now.  This was leading me to act out in destructive ways, which I don't do now.  Anything I do that is destructive now is due to negligence or some purpose.  Anyway, learning to handle the stress that I could not eliminate was key to being able to get my shit in order.

Probably the biggest thing that she did was to teach me some meditation techniques.  These things are hard to do from reading a book or just trying very hard.

She started off with outright hypnotizing me, the first time of which was by far the most enormous removal of emotional weight that I have ever experienced.

Later sessions were also great because I went to a place where no one could fucking bother me.  A "special place"?  Yep.  I got to invent mine and it was great.  It was difficult to reach.  Started off on a beach in the tropics.  From there fly out to a cruise ship, walk down the grand stairs and then freefall for a nice while.  Land on a snowy mountain peak.  There was a stone tower that I could sit on top of, and also a cave in which I could hide.  It was great.

I'm super-awesome because when I met my spirit animal, it was actually me with a bushy beard.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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calapine
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Reply #111 on: February 20, 2014, 12:24:05 PM

I'd like to see I am glad so many of you have had issues!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I have considered before starting a similar topic, mainly to just talk some steam off, but decided it wasn't the right place. It doesn't help not feeling like a failure when everyone in a discussion seems to be either state department, university prof, economist or at least a game dev. In addition to being in happy relationships and a successful parent.

So it's sort of a relief to see not everyone is 'perfect'.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 12:27:24 PM by calapine »

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Mosesandstick
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Reply #112 on: February 20, 2014, 12:24:49 PM

I hope everything gets better Pennilenko, stay strong.
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Reply #113 on: February 20, 2014, 12:43:38 PM

It doesn't help not feeling like a failure when everyone in a discussion seems to be either state department, university prof, economist or at least a game dev. In addition to being in happy relationships and a successful parent.

I went to a buddy's housewarming party last year, and basically everyone there but me was an ivy league grad.  I felt like the barbarian at the gates.
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Reply #114 on: February 20, 2014, 12:52:18 PM

It doesn't help not feeling like a failure when everyone in a discussion seems to be either state department, university prof, economist or at least a game dev. In addition to being in happy relationships and a successful parent.

I went to a buddy's housewarming party last year, and basically everyone there but me was an ivy league grad.  I felt like the barbarian at the gates.

This really is a reality check. I stay away from my rich friends as much as possible which is fairly isolating since they all seem to be VP of whatever company they are in, or damn near VP. I equate it to that scene in Breaking Bad's first season when Walt went to that party for his friend and X, even though I really want to be like Harry and Lloyd at the owl fundraiser. Gotta keep perspective I suppose.

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Reply #115 on: February 20, 2014, 12:57:34 PM

I'd like to see I am glad so many of you have had issues!  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

I have considered before starting a similar topic, mainly to just talk some steam off, but decided it wasn't the right place. It doesn't help not feeling like a failure when everyone in a discussion seems to be either state department, university prof, economist or at least a game dev. In addition to being in happy relationships and a successful parent.

So it's sort of a relief to see not everyone is 'perfect'.

I'm really, really not sure you've listened to anything we've said.  Like, ever.

 why so serious?

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Signe
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Reply #116 on: February 20, 2014, 02:49:14 PM

I'd tell a story too, but I don't want to kill anyone's uncle.  And half of you already think I'm weird.  Anyway, depression was only the small bit.  All I'll give you, Penny, is a combo of non-medical degree shrinks, non-addictive substance rehab, cutting down on the super fucked up meds I got from the medical degree shrinks and my own special blend of... err... "herbal" supplements works for me.  So, okay, I might still be a little nuts but I'm nowhere near as demented as I was a few years ago and very much less depressed.  Although I was probably more demented than depressed, I'd take the demented any day, especially since you usually don't realise you're being freaky.  Depression, however, is horrible, horrible, horrible.  I absolutely hate the feeling that nothing can ever get better.  I have noticed that when I use the treadmill a lot, it helps too and gives me more motivation to do other stuff. 

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calapine
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Reply #117 on: February 20, 2014, 03:28:06 PM

I'm really, really not sure you've listened to anything we've said.  Like, ever.

 why so serious?

Well, maybe it's selective reading on my part. But this is generally a posh crowd around here. ;)

On more general terms, I do think people keep such stuff hidden and one always only sees the own doubts. Like when Pennilenko described it euphemistically as "rough spot" 'two business failing, degree, other family members, money' and then topped that of with "My life is no harder than so many other people and they are doing just fine".

I'd rather say the reverse is true, a lot of people would have reacted far worse.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 03:31:12 PM by calapine »

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Selby
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Reply #118 on: February 20, 2014, 05:49:32 PM

But eventually it can either curdle into a kind of narcissism: what fixed me must fix everyone, because I'm the standard! or it becomes the therapy: unless I can convince everyone to get off the booze, take the pill, do the exercise, follow the procedure, see the specialist, repeat the mantra, then my therapy will stop working, because convincing other people is part of how I convince myself.
I despise this too, see it quite a bit in a lot of different walks of life.  I will say that my treatment is quite unconventional and would likely NOT work for the majority of the population and stems from a strange mixture of things.  As a result I don't shout anything out loud and rarely will even tell anyone what works best or even just for me.  I just suggest "get thee a therapist\doctor you can work with" as ultimately that is what matters and tends to yield the best results overall.

No story here, already weird enough! ;-)
Khaldun
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Reply #119 on: February 20, 2014, 06:09:17 PM

On the Ivy League grads, I can only say that some of the most important rigorous studies of mental health in the real world that have been done have been very extensive longitudinal studies of men graduating from Ivy League institutions over a period of 50+ years. And the thing that they found is that most of them have had very unhappy lives, and that their unhappy lives are significantly correlated with, if not caused by, their degree of objective "success". E.g., the men picked by their peers at graduation or thereabouts to kick the ass of the world were the people proportionately more likely to have had the world kick their ass. We're not talking "worried well" or people who are CEOs who complain about the poors hating them, we're talking nervous breakdowns, suicides, institutionalizations, and profound, heart-shattering depression in many cases. The basic thing they found was that the guys in those classes who have had the best mental health are the people with more emotional intelligence, less aggression, less of a sense of a need to win or dominate, more able to be happy with whatever they have, and very notably less dependence on alcohol, though that's also complicated in terms of whether that's a cause or a symptom of something.
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Reply #120 on: February 21, 2014, 05:43:40 AM

No life is prefect, some people are just better at hiding it.

It's also important to guide yourself as best you can to doing things that give you enjoyment rather than being a 'success'.  I can say for certain if I didn't define success on my own terms, I wouldn't have made it this far.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #121 on: February 21, 2014, 06:02:25 AM

You make an excellent point, Khaldun.  The one person I know from high school who committed suicide was a success-driven ivy leaguer with a 4.0 GPA in med school.  It shocked everybody, but in hindsight, and in light of what you said, it does make sense.
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Reply #122 on: February 21, 2014, 07:40:42 AM

Physicians and dentists have very high suicide rates. 
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Reply #123 on: February 21, 2014, 08:18:44 AM


Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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sickrubik
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Reply #124 on: February 21, 2014, 08:45:34 AM

No life is prefect, some people are just better at hiding it.


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Reply #125 on: February 21, 2014, 08:53:45 AM

I've suffered severe chronic depression combined with shitty social anxiety and no self esteem since I was a child.  There is a lot of good info in the thread already, so I don't have much to add.  I was pretty much a wreck until I found a good psychiatrist.  I often wonder how different my life would have been if I had found this man when I was 16 instead of 31. 

Anyways, I'm not comfortable speaking about most of my past on a public forum, but if anyone thinks it'd help chatting with someone who's been through it, send me a PM.

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apocrypha
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Reply #126 on: February 21, 2014, 08:54:19 AM

Physicians and dentists have very high suicide rates. 

I think the stresses and pressures of those professions are also complicated by the easy access to relatively simple methods of committing suicide. Farmers in the UK also have a high suicide rate, partly because they often own shotguns.

It was actually one (of many) reasons contributing to me abandoning my science career. As someone who has had, for large parts of my life, thoughts of suicide in my head, constantly working with things like insulin, anesthetics, various highly toxic chemicals, etc, wasn't a particularly good idea. Removing that opportunity seemed sensible.

Suicidal thoughts can flare up suddenly and intensely for people in moments of crisis. Often the peak crisis doesn't last very long, but if in that brief time there is easy access to lethal situations then suicide rates increase. This has been very clearly demonstrated with the simple change to supermarket painkiller sales. In the UK all supermarkets will now only sell you 2 packets of painkillers at a time. There's nothing to stop someone suicidal buying 2 packets of paracetamol, coming back 5 minutes later and buying 2 more and repeating until they have a lethal dose. But that simple change reduced suicides from paracetamol overdoses significantly.

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Reply #127 on: February 21, 2014, 09:42:31 AM

I'm currently dabbling in acupuncture and chinese herbal remedies for chronic anxiety. I can't tell yet if its helping, but its definitely not hurting.  The most palpably helpful stuff for me in this treatment seems to be the herbs. They seem to 'even out' the emotional swing, and take the bite out of self-punishing anxiety. Its not that I'm less anxious about stuff, I'm still a freakin' mess about any number of things in my life, but I seem to not 'hurt' so much about them, if that makes any sense. The emotional sting is dulled so I can -think straight- about the object of my anxiety. Only a bit tho. However, its just been a couple of weeks, and I'm told its way too soon to tell.

Also, the place I do it at has recliners so I get killer naps while the needles do their stuff.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

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Slayerik
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Reply #128 on: February 21, 2014, 09:51:07 AM

Well, overall a good thread. For the first time in my life (I am in my mid-thirties), I have reached a point of actual depression and fighting feelings of dread. Life has thrown me some massive hurdles. My fiancee' is still mostly in a wheelchair after over 2 years since her attack. I have 3 1/2 year old twins, as well as 9 - 10 - 12 year olds (half the time). The twins have just sucked the life out of me. I am in the process of quitting alcohol, even though I have been a drinker since about 13. I started smoking again. Angie's Long term disability was ripped out from under her right before Xmas, and our money struggles are still near insurmountable. I went to my doc, and my GP put me on Wellbutrin (Zyban) and it didn't really do much, and I had a hard time taking it twice a day. I decided to go off that, and self medicated some Prozac for maybe a month now. The wife says it helps, I don't really notice it (low dose) but whatever. I also smoke a little mary jane when the twins push me over the edge, and I come back in refreshed and not so mad at life. Not saying it's the answer to all probs, but my use is about 3 times a week and I find it can help.

The last 5 years have been pretty brutal. One thing that I used to listen to on Audio book was called Spontaneous Happiness http://www.amazon.com/Spontaneous-Happiness-Andrew-Weil/dp/1619693011

We really enjoyed it, and it didn't magically fix me but it helped. He's a smart guy, and I like his more primal theories about stuff.

I wish everyone luck, the mind can be a brutal place when you hate yourself or your life. Stay strong Penniman

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Engels
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Reply #129 on: February 21, 2014, 09:58:07 AM

Slayerik, your life has really fucking sucked in the last few years and in your shoes I would have crumpled ages ago. You still are one of my internet heroes.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
Slayerik
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Reply #130 on: February 21, 2014, 10:14:54 AM

Slayerik, your life has really fucking sucked in the last few years and in your shoes I would have crumpled ages ago. You still are one of my internet heroes.

Thanks Engels, f13 in general has been awesome to our fam and I really do appreciate when people go out of their way to check in on me (and here is a blanket apology if I have missed a thanks or a response back!). Strange sometimes how uplifting a single comment can be sometimes. I bumped into a lady at my work who knew my story, and at the end of our conversation she told me I was a good man. That was pretty nice to hear, sometimes you feel like all the stuff you do is just unnoticed. It can really be a challenge to be a good man. My grandfather wasn't, he (like myself) had 5 kids. He left my grandma, moved to Houston and that was that. Never paid her child support, nothing. Had it not been for him being such a prick, who knows...I mighta went that route. I just could never be him.

Anyway, Take Vitamin D and Omega 3 or fish oil. I think no matter what this can be good, and in no way harmful - if you are looking for suppliments. This time of year, the lack of sunlight can make depression worse and the Vit D can help combat that.

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Reply #131 on: February 21, 2014, 11:32:14 AM

I don't normally agree with Engels, but here we are.  I don't know of anyone that would not crack in similar circumstances.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
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Reply #132 on: February 21, 2014, 11:40:55 AM

I'm currently dabbling in acupuncture and chinese herbal remedies for chronic anxiety. I can't tell yet if its helping, but its definitely not hurting.  The most palpably helpful stuff for me in this treatment seems to be the herbs. They seem to 'even out' the emotional swing, and take the bite out of self-punishing anxiety. Its not that I'm less anxious about stuff, I'm still a freakin' mess about any number of things in my life, but I seem to not 'hurt' so much about them, if that makes any sense. The emotional sting is dulled so I can -think straight- about the object of my anxiety. Only a bit tho. However, its just been a couple of weeks, and I'm told its way too soon to tell.

Also, the place I do it at has recliners so I get killer naps while the needles do their stuff.

You mean apart from the needles you mean?  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly? And yes, I know, they don't hurt. They just look scary as hell.

The evening out of the swings is what I felt when I was taking Wellbutrin for anxiety. The triggers still triggered anxiety, but it was muted and surrounded by puffy clouds and soft cotton, and maybe some kittens. Like I said before, eventually my brain chemistry evened out and the triggers stopped affecting me.

My new trouble is getting to sleep. I have huge problems winding down enough to go to sleep. I read, I watch TV, I lay there in the dark...nothing makes me fall asleep. Any sleep aids I have tried have always resulted in my being groggy as fuck in the morning. Well, even groggier...

 I really need to get my fat ass exercising. I KNOW that would help. If only there was a form of exercise that worked my body as well as my brain. I just get so fucking bored when I exercise- all I can think of is how long I have been doing it, and how long I have to keep doing it until I can stop and do something fun.

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Amarr HM
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Reply #133 on: February 21, 2014, 12:28:07 PM

I am in the process of quitting alcohol, even though I have been a drinker since about 13.

It's a tough process, good luck with it. Well worth it though.

Anyone tried St. Johns Wort for depression? Can't be bought over here but you can get it in UK and I may be moving there soon.

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Reply #134 on: February 21, 2014, 12:30:06 PM

Where is here? It's pretty readily available in the states.

I've never seen anything out than correlation data for that stuff.

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Amarr HM
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Reply #135 on: February 21, 2014, 12:53:22 PM

Ireland, it was taken off the shelves over ten years ago.

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Reply #136 on: February 21, 2014, 01:24:00 PM

I tried St John's Wort in my early 20s and noticed no difference. 

I have a weird situation; most drugs act paradoxically in my system. 

Xanax, even the little pink ones, knocks me completely out, asleep (even at work) within 30 minutes.  I tried Sertraline with my doc and by day six my heart was pumping so hard in my chest and I couldn't catch my breath.  On Ativan I was completely jittery and my vision bounced. 

For as much as I treated my body as a chemistry set from age 16-22, I don't like drugs now.  Even prescripts are so hard to work through to get to 'normal'.  I'm not down on drugs, they're a great tool for those who need it.  They're just hard for me to work with.

So I live day to day with weird depression.  I don't get 'down', I just don't care some days.  Could not give a fuck about anything except making sure my kid is okay.  Apathy is hell.  But I just keep spinning plates and stop worrying about the ones that fall. 
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Reply #137 on: February 21, 2014, 02:43:38 PM

All this depression-talk has re-invigorated my love of martial arts and I've been considering getting into Taiji chuan, which statistically is the #1 exercise regimen for stress relief.  In doing so I found out what Jet Li has been up to the past few years (if you recall, he kinda sorta retired).  Evidently he's been working with Alibaba founder Ma (yah, that guy) to re-invent Tai Chi.  They screwed up and devved it in Flash but here it is:

http://www.taijizen.com/en

It's a very commercial, systematic, and techno (I swear the narrator sounds like the portal computer) approach but is good for folk like us who cant be arsed into joining some class with *gasp people or are tired of yoga.  It's mostly slow form (24 forms I think) mixed with some bagua for semi-practical defense and quicker exercise.  There's a duan (belt) system and they'll evaluate you via webcam after completion of each level.

There's a free daily webcam Qi session by the lead taijizen instructor here:
http://daviddorianross.com/  
http://taijifit.net/

Ross basically combined his system with Li and Ma to make Taijizen.  It's kinda cool, but not being able to view on a TV is a big gimp (due to flash).  The usual Youtubes may serve one better.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 11:40:33 PM by Ghambit »

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Reply #138 on: February 21, 2014, 03:04:34 PM

The only caveat I would add to that is that without a structure and schedule - like what a class for whatever exercise you pick provides - it can be very hard to get motivated to actually do the work. I find that paying that monthly fee and especially having the specific schedule helps a lot with actually keeping up with exercise. Also doing it with someone else so you each have someone else pushing to go on the nights when you feel like you can't is huge. Motivation is a tricky thing, and I think for most depressed people it can be very difficult to self-start with just tapes or whatever.

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Reply #139 on: February 21, 2014, 03:07:51 PM

Yah, I forgot to mention there is a monthly fee, a structured schedule, achievements/badge/cert system, as well as mandatory dual training (push hands usually) at certain points.  But yah, motivation for many is still easier with a physical class.  Others? notsomuch.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 03:12:01 PM by Ghambit »

"See, the beauty of webgames is that I can play them on my phone while I'm plowing your mom."  -Samwise
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