Penny Arcade ends PATV and Penny Arcade Report.

[Ingmar]

I'd kind of like to know how many of the people objecting to the ratings actually have experience with both systems.

Considering how unreasonable it is to expect anyone to have both at this point, that sort of a demand is only good for ending the discussion altogether.

Funny that.

[jakonovski]

Someone's a sourpuss today.

[Miasma]

Giving an actual numeric rating to a console at all is borderline retarded.

[sickrubik]

Giving an actual numeric rating to a console at all is borderline retarded.

Aside from the usage of "retarded", I'd be hard-pressed to disagree. Especially at launch. However, that wasn't the point at hand.

[Ingmar]

Yeah I more meant the idea that one is better than the other is a pretty silly thing to hitch your wagon to without having tried both. All most of us have to go on is the pre-release hype and whatever biases we bring to the table. And I guess the difference in cost, which is of course significant.

[Lakov_Sanite]

So the conventional wisdom now is that the Penny Arcade guys are intolerant a-holes?  As far as I can tell they made a comic about the immorality of MMORPG quests one time that mentioned rape only in the context of poking fun at the idea that in those games players won't save someone unless it fulfills completion of a quest objective. 

Then another time Gabe espoused his shocking opinion that his definition of a woman includes a person with a vagina.

So yeah, these people are clearly Neanderthals.

It was not the comic, it was the merchandising.

[Merusk]

Don't feed the troll.

[dusematic]

So the conventional wisdom now is that the Penny Arcade guys are intolerant a-holes?  As far as I can tell they made a comic about the immorality of MMORPG quests one time that mentioned rape only in the context of poking fun at the idea that in those games players won't save someone unless it fulfills completion of a quest objective. 

Then another time Gabe espoused his shocking opinion that his definition of a woman includes a person with a vagina.

So yeah, these people are clearly Neanderthals.

It was not the comic, it was the merchandising.

Given that their entire business model relies upon merchandising their comics, and given that we both seem to agree the dickwolves comic was a non-starter, then it doesn't logically follow that the merchandising of one specific comic was objectionable. 

[dusematic]

Don't feed the troll.

Says the guy with the sexually provocative and scantily-clad female avatar and three out-of-context quotations from women in his sig that are suggestive of sexual promiscuity in a discussion purportedly about misogyny.

[Tannhauser]

My enthusiasm for PA really declined when they carried water for Bioware for ME3's awful ending.

[Lakov_Sanite]

and given that we both seem to agree the dickwolves comic was a non-starter

Absolutely untrue.  The argument which is not mine, is that the comic was offensive to which the PA guys said "FU artistic license"  which was enough to annoy people but it wasn't until they gave those offended the proverbial middle finger by way of t-shirts and jerseys that people became very upset. 

I'm not saying who is right I'm just pointing out the issue didn't really get heated until the PA guys saw fit to throw salt in the proverbial wound.  Yes they make a living off of merchandise but no they didn't NEED to make the dickwolves stuff.  They would be close to brain dead to not realize what they were starting at the time.

I personally never found the comic all the offensive but they handled the backlash from it in the worst possible way and  it's still biting them on the ass.

[Samwise]

I haven't seen any blog opinions yet on this PA newspost, but I'm sure they will mostly be along the lines of "sorry I can't hear when rape apologists talk".

I’ve seen some articles about the roll for diversity stuff happening at PAX and I respect that some people are hesitant to jump on board or see it as a stunt of some kind. I can tell you in all honesty that it springs from a desire on our part to do better and be better. Is there more we can do? Well to be fair we haven’t even done this yet. I’m sure it will need tuning and adjusting but every tweak and change will be done with the goal of making PAX a better show for everyone.

I’ve learned a ridiculous amount this year. About myself and about other people. It’s been a difficult year, probably the hardest in my life and I realize I brought most of it on myself. That’s a sobering realization. I also realize that I’ve made it harder for the people I care about, my friends and my family. I can’t be this guy anymore. I have every intention of taking the things I’ve learned this year to heart and changing. I’ve said I’m sorry for the things I’ve said but I’ve never apologized for who I am. I need to separate the busted kid from the man I am now. I guess that’s my new years resolution. Might be harder than losing ten pounds.

[Venkman]

I kinda feel bad for these guys.

Normally gruff start up-y people get bought up by a conglomerate whose media folks either train to be PR-able, or hide them behind people who are. Secondarily you get people who start up something but have the personality and self-awareness to intuitively self-regulate.

Neither has been the case here.

It sounds like they're finally getting to what they should have recognized after they launched PAX East: shed the stuff they can't handle so they can focus on comics.

But I suspect they'll need to shed even more than they realize. They're starting to impact the PA brand itself. That has a knockon effect to their philanthropic, event and other business ventures. Letting other people manage those things was the right move. But they're still the face of them, and the fact has warts.

Either they'll get all Dan Quayle'd up to achieve some level of manageable competence for a time, the non-comic activities get rebranded to separate from PA, or the PA strip goes away in favor of some other strip they focus on (like the trial balloons they've floated) while the PA brand lives on without them too nor a comic.

I'm guessing #3.

[Ingmar]

I haven't seen any blog opinions yet on this PA newspost, but I'm sure they will mostly be along the lines of "sorry I can't hear when rape apologists talk".

I’ve seen some articles about the roll for diversity stuff happening at PAX and I respect that some people are hesitant to jump on board or see it as a stunt of some kind. I can tell you in all honesty that it springs from a desire on our part to do better and be better. Is there more we can do? Well to be fair we haven’t even done this yet. I’m sure it will need tuning and adjusting but every tweak and change will be done with the goal of making PAX a better show for everyone.

I’ve learned a ridiculous amount this year. About myself and about other people. It’s been a difficult year, probably the hardest in my life and I realize I brought most of it on myself. That’s a sobering realization. I also realize that I’ve made it harder for the people I care about, my friends and my family. I can’t be this guy anymore. I have every intention of taking the things I’ve learned this year to heart and changing. I’ve said I’m sorry for the things I’ve said but I’ve never apologized for who I am. I need to separate the busted kid from the man I am now. I guess that’s my new years resolution. Might be harder than losing ten pounds.

You didn't quote the most important part, IMO:

So what am I? As a young person I imagined myself a sort of vengeful spirit. A schoolyard Robin Hood who attacked the strong and popular on behalf of the social outcasts. I’m 36 years old now though and I realize what I am is a bully. I may have been the one who got beat up but I sent plenty of kids home in tears. I also realize that I carried those ridiculous insecurities into adulthood. I still see people who attack me as the enemy and I strike back with the same ferocity as that seventh grader I used to be. I’m ashamed of that and embarrassed. The crazy thing is I don’t even necessarily believe the stuff I say a lot of times. It would probably be more noble if I did. The truth is I just say them to be mean. I say them because I know they will hurt. It’s pretty fucked up.

The response I've seen has generally been people encouraged that he's realized it, at least. With a lot of 'wait and see' on if it means anything in the long run to what they put out.

[Trippy]

He's known he's been a bully, and why he's been a bully, for a while now (a la Ocean Marketing). Maybe he is trying to change. Or maybe he just keeps making excuses for himself.

[dusematic]

and given that we both seem to agree the dickwolves comic was a non-starter

Absolutely untrue.  The argument which is not mine, is that the comic was offensive to which the PA guys said "FU artistic license"  which was enough to annoy people but it wasn't until they gave those offended the proverbial middle finger by way of t-shirts and jerseys that people became very upset. 

I'm not saying who is right I'm just pointing out the issue didn't really get heated until the PA guys saw fit to throw salt in the proverbial wound.  Yes they make a living off of merchandise but no they didn't NEED to make the dickwolves stuff.  They would be close to brain dead to not realize what they were starting at the time.

I personally never found the comic all the offensive but they handled the backlash from it in the worst possible way and  it's still biting them on the ass.

Of course they didn't NEED to make dickwolves merchandise.  The real question is can people make jokes that include the word rape, or references to it, without being legitimately accused of "propagating rape culture."    Because really, depending on everyone's own personal hobby horse, it's not a drastic leap to denounce someone for promoting murder or gun culture for making a joke including a violent reference, bullying culture for making a joke including references to insults or harassment, or any of a number of other ad hominems.

People don't usually do this to Louis C.K. The gaming community is so. fucking. retarded.

[sickrubik]

We don't even have to bring into account "context" before seeing a gulf of difference between CK and PA.

[Samwise]

"Offending people is a necessary and healthy act. Every time you say something that's offensive to another person, you just caused a discussion. You just forced them to have to think." - Louis C.K.

[Sir T]

"Offending people is a necessary and healthy act. Every time you say something that's offensive to another person, you just caused a discussion. You just forced them to have to think." - Louis C.K.

That's pretty much been the philosophy of South Park.

[Ironwood]

"Offending people is a necessary and healthy act. Every time you say something that's offensive to another person, you just caused a discussion. You just forced them to have to think." - Louis C.K.

No, that's not correct.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The difference being Louis CK doesn't make a rape joke and then go make t-shirts that say "rape joke:the tshirt, fuck you whiners".  It is possible to make offensive jokes and I don't believe any topic should be banned from humor.

The case with PA was that they started getting called on being assholes and rather than discuss it or explain it or even apologize, they turned up the asshole meter to 11.

[Pennilenko]

What Louis CK thinks about this topic.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/louis-c-k-

[Tannhauser]

"Offending people is a necessary and healthy act. Every time you say something that's offensive to another person, you just caused a discussion. You just forced them to have to think." - Louis C.K.

Yeah, that worked out SO well for Michael Richards. 

[dusematic]

The difference being Louis CK doesn't make a rape joke and then go make t-shirts that say "rape joke:the tshirt, fuck you whiners".  It is possible to make offensive jokes and I don't believe any topic should be banned from humor.

The case with PA was that they started getting called on being assholes and rather than discuss it or explain it or even apologize, they turned up the asshole meter to 11.

No, the difference is people pay $60 up front to see Louis tell jokes live, whereas PA tells a joke for free and hopes to cash in on the backend through merch.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The difference being Louis CK doesn't make a rape joke and then go make t-shirts that say "rape joke:the tshirt, fuck you whiners".  It is possible to make offensive jokes and I don't believe any topic should be banned from humor.

The case with PA was that they started getting called on being assholes and rather than discuss it or explain it or even apologize, they turned up the asshole meter to 11.

No, the difference is people pay $60 up front to see Louis tell jokes live, whereas PA tells a joke for free and hopes to cash in on the backend through merch.

His special is $5 online, so there's that.

[Rendakor]

His stuff is also on Netflix.

[Pennilenko]

You can also email him and explain that you think he is amazing but don't have any money to spend at the moment and he will send you a link to download what ever it is you wanted to see. I read about it on the internet so it must be true.

[dusematic]

The difference being Louis CK doesn't make a rape joke and then go make t-shirts that say "rape joke:the tshirt, fuck you whiners".  It is possible to make offensive jokes and I don't believe any topic should be banned from humor.

The case with PA was that they started getting called on being assholes and rather than discuss it or explain it or even apologize, they turned up the asshole meter to 11.

No, the difference is people pay $60 up front to see Louis tell jokes live, whereas PA tells a joke for free and hopes to cash in on the backend through merch.

His special is $5 online, so there's that.

lol, ok. funny.

[Jeff Kelly]

"Offending people is a necessary and healthy act. Every time you say something that's offensive to another person, you just caused a discussion. You just forced them to have to think." - Louis C.K.

That may well be if you're arguably one of the best comics on the planet right now, yet just because a master can do it, doesn't mean that a beginner or journeyman can pull it off.

Your quote also ignores that there's quite a lively debate over how to handle controversial and offensive content among comics and in the comedy 'scene'. With comics - like Louis C. K. - arguing that highly offensive or controversial content needs top notch writing and delivery or in other words a masterful comic to pull it off.

Lastly especially CK but all kinds of other comics never do offensive material for the sake of being offensive it's almost always framed in a way to achieve exactly what you quoted. If you're interested then you can find a lot of theory crafting on how offensive or controversial material is constructed on the web or in podcasts by all kinds of different comics. Just listen to a few of the WTF podcasts when they discuss 'blue' material to catch a glimpse on just how much thought is put into such jokes.

The whole dickwolves debacle is certainly not even remotely on the same level and shouldn't be defended by anyone. I doubt that those two have put even a modicum of thought into those jokes and even if they did it wouldn't even have become the scandal that it did, if they hadn't acted like the absolute jerks they usually are.

[Jeff Kelly]

Turning this into a free speech issue is giving Penny Arcade much more credit than they deserve.

As for that apology: It's great if he actually learned something about himself. Talk is cheap though and actions speak louder than words so while I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'll also wait and see if they actually change.

It would be nice if he actually personally apologizes to the people he mistreated instead of 'just' offering a general apology on his website though.

[Fabricated]

I still think it's a joke to say the backlash has "hurt" PA. It only appears like it hurt them because they apologized, ironically enough.

What would the consequences be if Gabe/Tycho hadn't apologized? Nothing really. Gabe's gigantic mea-culpa and explanation for his head issues was mostly met with "pfft, whatever, he'll just be an asshole again later you'll see" by his more prominent critics.

Fullbright pulling out of PAX? Who the fuck cares? Nobody who matters. Not their primary audience, and probably not most people who AREN'T in that audience.

RockPaperShotgun refusing to cover PAX? Oh no, one of the umpteen games blogs not covering something literally every other outlet is going to cover anyway? What will we do?

I also liked the Cards Against Humanity people whining about the panel where Gabe said he regretted taking down the Dickwolves merchandise because it "stole their thunder" or whatever. Excuse me shit stain- isn't your card game the one that has cards with shit like "Date Rape" on them?

And this is coming from someone who:
-Thinks the comic hasn't been funny for years.
-Thinks Tycho is a pretentious twat who can't write for shit.
-Thinks Gabe is also a twat and that his art has gotten really bad over the last couple of years.
-Thinks Child's Play isn't the first charity for children you should probably think of when donating money.

Really they should just stop listening to Khoos.

[Jeff Kelly]

It hasn't hurt them, why should it? Their core audience doesn't care and the criticism came largely from external entities that don't regularly read Penny Arcade anyway.

Just like most of those controversies it was simply a tempest in a teacup. Something activists could get exasperated about until the next 'scandal' comes around and the commentariat moves on. Gabe and Tycho just exacerbated everything by acting like they always do (like Grade A dicks, mostly). The first reaction to any sort of criticism is that they double down on the thing that brought them into the situation they are in the first place, with a sort of 'now more than ever' attitude. Secondly they run with the tails between their legs once they get their asses handed to them by their critics.

This doesn't turn this into a free speech issue though. If you think that it is the right of Penny Arcade to make those kinds of jokes (the general 'you') then you should also be OK with accepting the opinion of people that are offended by it and speak their mind on the issue.

This for me is the main difference between professional comics like Louis C.K. and the in my opinion mediocre PA guys. Really great comics know most of the time exactly where the line is and what the consequences and benefits are of crossing it. They also mostly know how to handle any fallout from doing it. They know people will get offended by it and they know which fight to pick. C.K. especially has talked and written quite a lot about how to craft offensive material in a way that offers insight or elicits laughs without unnecessarily offending people.

That's what differentiates comics like C.K. or Jimmy Carr - comics whose material largely consists of 'inappropriate' content and offensive stuff - from guys like Tosh, Richardson or even Gabe and Tycho. The former can get away with material that on the surface is much worse without being mired in constant scandals and they are quick to handle any fallout if they miss the mark (which doesn't happen very often), the latter end up with their foots very much lodged in their mouths and face a certain amount of personal and professional repercussions.

Most of the stuff Gabe and Tycho do strikes me as essentially tone-deaf, they either don't seem to know or care that there are certain issues people are passionate about and if they are confronted with that they deal with it by marginalizing or ridiculing those people for actually being passionate about stuff just because they themselves don't care or 'don't get the fuss'. Tycho and Gabe mostly act like dicks and turning the whole dickwolves debacle into a sort of free speech or 'controversy is good' issue gives them too much credit for something that they didn't think through and never even intended to be controversial and which only became that once they doubled down on the stupid.

With that in mind the latest post is a pretty big acknowledgement of that behavior and I hope that it does lead to some sort of personal growth. Since this is neither the first 'here's why I'm a dick' post nor the first public apology by either Gabe or Tycho I'm a bit skeptical though, not that I care that much since I stopped reading their site years ago.

[dusematic]

"Offending people is a necessary and healthy act. Every time you say something that's offensive to another person, you just caused a discussion. You just forced them to have to think." - Louis C.K.

That may well be if you're arguably one of the best comics on the planet right now, yet just because a master can do it, doesn't mean that a beginner or journeyman can pull it off.

This is a non-point.  Since real life isn't Ultima Online, and hence there is no metric for a 'master' comic, 'neophyte' comic, 'journeyman' comic, or any other, what you're really saying is you think it's ok for C.K. and Carr to say fucked up shit because you personally find it funny.  But you don't find PA funny, and seem to have a personal distaste for them, thus it's not ok for them to say crass and vulgar things.  Yours is really the internal viewpoint of almost all human beings dressed up with the trappings of education (which helps convince yourself you're right).

Lastly especially CK but all kinds of other comics never do offensive material for the sake of being offensive it's almost always framed in a way to achieve exactly what you quoted. If you're interested then you can find a lot of theory crafting on how offensive or controversial material is constructed on the web or in podcasts by all kinds of different comics. Just listen to a few of the WTF podcasts when they discuss 'blue' material to catch a glimpse on just how much thought is put into such jokes.

The whole dickwolves debacle is certainly not even remotely on the same level and shouldn't be defended by anyone. I doubt that those two have put even a modicum of thought into those jokes and even if they did it wouldn't even have become the scandal that it did, if they hadn't acted like the absolute jerks they usually are.

Your argument completely ignores and depends on people forgetting the fact that the dickwolves strip inescapably wasn't about rape.  It was about the (a)morality found in the design and play of MMORPGs.  Almost as if there was an intention to make a larger point and thereby provoke some semblance of discussion.

[Jeff Kelly]

At that point our argument will largely revolve around craft and execution.

Intent is only 20% of what makes a joke 'work' after all.

[Paelos]

The apology was stupid. He will do it again because most assholes don't fundamentally change, especially with each passing decade. It sounds like they are going through some sort of early mid life crisis and posting about it with a huge megaphone.