Penny Arcade ends PATV and Penny Arcade Report.

[Jeff Kelly]

btw. reducing my point to one that is purely about personal taste is also a non point. Firstly because it can easily be flipped around to also dismiss the point you made just as well just be replacing the attributes. Secondly because it ignores that there is lots and lots of debate and theory crafting about the crafting and execution of jokes, especially when it concerns offensive or blue material.

You can criticize my taste or try to dismiss my argument because of my supposed bias but that doesn't change the fact that lots of comics make their living with material that is significantly more offensive without a mob brandishing torches and pitchforks following them around everywhere.

[Fabricated]

There are a LOT of comedians who tell offensive jokes just to be offensive because that's the point of their "art".

Gilbert Gottfried was telling 9/11 jokes in his act literally the next day and he didn't catch shit for it because his audience (and anyone who knew anything about the comedy scene) knows that's just what Gilbert does. See the Aristocrats movie too.

[dusematic]

btw. reducing my point to one that is purely about personal taste is also a non point. Firstly because it can easily be flipped around to also dismiss the point you made just as well just be replacing the attributes. Secondly because it ignores that there is lots and lots of debate and theory crafting about the crafting and execution of jokes, especially when it concerns offensive or blue material.

You can criticize my taste or try to dismiss my argument because of my supposed bias but that doesn't change the fact that lots of comics make their living with material that is significantly more offensive without a mob brandishing torches and pitchforks following them around everywhere.

Both of your first two statements are straw men.  To begin with, I never criticized your personal taste (although I was tempted with your reference to Marc Maron).   Likewise, when you complain  that I am "reducing your point to one that is purely about personal taste"  when your last three posts revolve around the idea that blue jokes are o.k. if properly theory crafted by a master comedian then...I'm not sure what your complaint is.  Your entire "point" if you can call it that is entirely based upon personal taste.  Yours to be specific.  

Finally, when you say "lots of comics make their living with material...more offensive without a mob brandishing torches" it's irrelevant, unfounded, and quite likely wrong.  Even Bill Cosby has gotten himself into hot water for impolitic statements before for Pete's sake.  

[dusematic]

There are a LOT of comedians who tell offensive jokes just to be offensive because that's the point of their "art".

Gilbert Gottfried was telling 9/11 jokes in his act literally the next day and he didn't catch shit for it because his audience (and anyone who knew anything about the comedy scene) knows that's just what Gilbert does. See the Aristocrats movie too.

Though Gottfried was fired by Aflac after tweeting jokes about the Japanese tsunami.

[Severian]

Here's Louis CK dancing along that line in his latest special, while making the audience aware of what's happening: Of Course... But Maybe
I'd say there's more going on in quite a bit (but not all) of his humor than just going blue/verboten for shock value.

None of which applies to the dickwolves merch, which was aggressive assholery.

[Fabricated]

There are a LOT of comedians who tell offensive jokes just to be offensive because that's the point of their "art".

Gilbert Gottfried was telling 9/11 jokes in his act literally the next day and he didn't catch shit for it because his audience (and anyone who knew anything about the comedy scene) knows that's just what Gilbert does. See the Aristocrats movie too.

Though Gottfried was fired by Aflac after tweeting jokes about the Japanese tsunami.

Being a voiceover guy isn't Gilbert's primary gig though. You didn't see any venues refusing to have him on after the tsunami jokes; that's his primary gig.

[dusematic]

There are a LOT of comedians who tell offensive jokes just to be offensive because that's the point of their "art".

Gilbert Gottfried was telling 9/11 jokes in his act literally the next day and he didn't catch shit for it because his audience (and anyone who knew anything about the comedy scene) knows that's just what Gilbert does. See the Aristocrats movie too.

Though Gottfried was fired by Aflac after tweeting jokes about the Japanese tsunami.

Being a voiceover guy isn't Gilbert's primary gig though. You didn't see any venues refusing to have him on after the tsunami jokes; that's his primary gig.

It would be a rare occasion when a comedy club boycotted a comedian that sells tickets.  Even if one comedy club took a stand, there would be dozens hundreds thousands of others that would feel lovely about selling out their venue, so you never hear about it.

[dusematic]

Here's Louis CK dancing along that line in his latest special, while making the audience aware of what's happening: Of Course... But Maybe
I'd say there's more going on in quite a bit (but not all) of his humor than just going blue/verboten for shock value.

None of which applies to the dickwolves merch, which was aggressive assholery.

Of course.  But maybe, if videogame webcomics make a comic about the ethics of MMORPGs and a bunch of feminists get butthurt about it then it's not really a big deal just because a few nitwits with personal blogs and a desire for page views go into hysterics.

And maybe, arguing "the comic was fine, it was the merch that crossed the line!" is a canard.  I don't think anyone here is arguing there was anything wrong with the comic, except perhaps that it wasn't funny.  Thus, because their business model relies on creating web comics gratis with the hope someone will buy a t-shirt or a pin because they like the comic upon which it is based, there is only a manufactured problem here.

[sickrubik]

The complaints about PA has always been the attitudes of he creators and their actions. In the spectrum of the art vs the creator, there has only been the one comic that has gotten a lot of attention, and the main reason it got the reaction it did was because of the creators response to rather measured tones by the audience saying they were a bit offended by it. Everything else has been issues that have come up outside from the comic, for the most part. (PAX, etc)

The early reaction to "dickwolves" wasn't vitriol and venom for the most part. And that's twhy there has been an issue. Any time these issues have come out with PA, someone from their audience has reached out voicing their concerns, and they have been met with assholerly on the part of Gabe. Because Gabe/Tycho have done a lot to create a fun/safe atmosphere, it makes it more frustrating on the parts of those that want to be fans of there's but feel unsafe or insulted.

[Paelos]

I suppose it's too simple to say that if you're offended by their bullshit to stop paying attention to their bullshit?

[sickrubik]

 

[Paelos]

I mean honestly, they are in the entertainment business. At what point do we just say "Fuck em" and stop worrying about some petty assholes with a webcomic?

[sickrubik]

Said people HAVE stopped supporting them, but the conversation remains. I hadn't been reading it anyway, because of their asshatery.

[dusematic]

Said people HAVE stopped supporting them, but the conversation remains. I hadn't been reading it anyway, because of their asshatery.

Yeah, and those two dozen or so people were a grievous blow to the Penny Arcade machine.

[sickrubik]

And?

[dusematic]

The complaints about PA has always been the attitudes of he creators and their actions. In the spectrum of the art vs the creator, there has only been the one comic that has gotten a lot of attention, and the main reason it got the reaction it did was because of the creators response to rather measured tones by the audience saying they were a bit offended by it. Everything else has been issues that have come up outside from the comic, for the most part. (PAX, etc)

The early reaction to "dickwolves" wasn't vitriol and venom for the most part. And that's twhy there has been an issue. Any time these issues have come out with PA, someone from their audience has reached out voicing their concerns, and they have been met with assholerly on the part of Gabe. Because Gabe/Tycho have done a lot to create a fun/safe atmosphere, it makes it more frustrating on the parts of those that want to be fans of there's but feel unsafe or insulted.

 Here's one of the earliest reactions:  http://www.fugitivus.net/2009/06/24/a-woman-walks-into-a-rape-uh-bar/

I'll leave it to you to decide whether it has any merit.   But it's at least useful in demonstrating that the root of the criticism stems from an objection to the original comic.  The argument goes that the original comic propagates "rape culture."  If that is true, then obviously merchandising the propagation of rape culture would be bad.

What's interesting is that nobody in this thread has argued the comic propagates rape culture.  My theory is the reason for that is because it is a stupid argument that would be ridiculed here.  What people have tried to do, is misappropriate the original feminist objection and adopt the more defensible position that the real reason they are assholes is because they made t-shirts about a comic after bitches on the internet got sad.  And I guess that's why you guys are heroes.

[dusematic]

And?

I think the Morgellon's Research Group is up to 47 members now.  Just sayin' bud.

[sickrubik]

Here's one of the earliest reactions:  http://www.fugitivus.net/2009/06/24/a-woman-walks-into-a-rape-uh-bar/

I'll leave it to you to decide whether it has any merit.   But it's at least useful in demonstrating that the root of the criticism stems from an objection to the original comic.  The argument goes that the original comic propagates "rape culture."  If that is true, then obviously merchandising the propagation of rape culture would be bad.

What's interesting is that nobody in this thread has argued the comic propagates rape culture.  My theory is the reason for that is because it is a stupid argument that would be ridiculed here.  What people have tried to do, is misappropriate the original feminist objection and adopt the more defensible position that the real reason they are assholes is because they made t-shirts about a comic after bitches on the internet got sad.  And I guess that's why you guys are heroes.

There doesn't seem to be anything in that article that is addressing the comic stip in particular, but the issues with jokes about rape in general, which are still valid. It is also the opinion of one person, whether or not I or you disagree or agree with said position. There is no "polar" argument in the situation like this.

You're simplifying the argument in general and specifically and as well painting it an ill-light to respond to something that you don't like it. There's absolutely no reason not  to use your voice if you feel the need. The attitude that it's whining or whatever is immature and simplistic. It discredits the other side. The point of addressing their reactions IS that, for the most part, the reactions to any of their fumbles has been "hey, I like your stuff man, but that's not cool" and they've doubled down on their crazy. When Gabe has given it the chance to discuss it at length with people, he has understood and tried his best to apologize and be better, which most people have at least given him credit for. The fact that they continually shoot themselves in the foot is the problem.

Saying "I don't read their shit anymore" or "I don't think you should give those assholes money" is not making yourself a hero, nor will most people who do that think that of themselves.

I'm not even remotely sure what the fuck the comment about the Morgellon's thing is about. This entire convo is so fucking mired in logical fallacies.

[dusematic]

Here's one of the earliest reactions:  http://www.fugitivus.net/2009/06/24/a-woman-walks-into-a-rape-uh-bar/

I'll leave it to you to decide whether it has any merit.   But it's at least useful in demonstrating that the root of the criticism stems from an objection to the original comic.  The argument goes that the original comic propagates "rape culture."  If that is true, then obviously merchandising the propagation of rape culture would be bad.

What's interesting is that nobody in this thread has argued the comic propagates rape culture.  My theory is the reason for that is because it is a stupid argument that would be ridiculed here.  What people have tried to do, is misappropriate the original feminist objection and adopt the more defensible position that the real reason they are assholes is because they made t-shirts about a comic after bitches on the internet got sad.  And I guess that's why you guys are heroes.

There doesn't seem to be anything in that article that is addressing the comic stip in particular, but the issues with jokes about rape in general, which are still valid. It is also the opinion of one person, whether or not I or you disagree or agree with said position. There is no "polar" argument in the situation like this.

You're simplifying the argument in general and specifically and as well painting it an ill-light to respond to something that you don't like it. There's absolutely no reason not  to use your voice if you feel the need. The attitude that it's whining or whatever is immature and simplistic. It discredits the other side. The point of addressing their reactions IS that, for the most part, the reactions to any of their fumbles has been "hey, I like your stuff man, but that's not cool" and they've doubled down on their crazy. When Gabe has given it the chance to discuss it at length with people, he has understood and tried his best to apologize and be better, which most people have at least given him credit for. The fact that they continually shoot themselves in the foot is the problem.

Saying "I don't read their shit anymore" or "I don't think you should give those assholes money" is not making yourself a hero, nor will most people who do that think that of themselves.

I'm not even remotely sure what the fuck the comment about the Morgellon's thing is about. This entire convo is so fucking mired in logical fallacies.

So are you saying the original comic did propagate rape culture?

[Soulflame]

I wondered how long it would take to get to "rape culture".  Now that it has been said, can we drop it.

I don't want to find out any of you assholes are MRAs.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I wondered how long it would take to get to "rape culture".  Now that it has been said, can we drop it.

I don't want to find out any of you assholes are MRAs.

Typical cis-hetero white male talk.

[rk47]

Can I come out of the closet now?
Oh wait, wrong forum. 

[Sir T]

I actually had to look up the original comic to see what all the fuss was about as I'd never heard of any of this


Having found it, I thought the point was the whole "ok, done the bear minimum to finish the quest, I can leave the rest to their unbearably horrific lives" silliness of most "heroic" MMO quests. I couldn't see anything wrong with the original comic as such. Unless rape victims are a special category of horror above violent abuse victims and therefore making a joke about violent abuse is a-ok.

The Merch was a bit over the top I'll admit. Team Dickwolves? And I haven't read any of their later comments so I cant comment on that.

[dusematic]

I actually had to look up the original comic to see what all the fuss was about as I'd never heard of any of this


Having found it, I thought the point was the whole "ok, done the bear minimum to finish the quest, I can leave the rest to their unbearably horrific lives" silliness of most "heroic" MMO quests. I couldn't see anything wrong with the original comic as such. Unless rape victims are a special category of horror above violent abuse victims and therefore making a joke about violent abuse is a-ok.

The Merch was a bit over the top I'll admit. Team Dickwolves? And I haven't read any of their later comments so I cant comment on that.

This is the shirt:


Aside from the fact that there was nothing wrong with the original joke, one look at the shirt reveals that it is itself satirical of the professional sports industry.

[rk47]

Can't see any dicks there. 
Them butthurts are just over exaggerated IMO. 

[jakonovski]

These things get out of hand because people are dumb. PA could've just said "sometimes we make really dirty jokes, viewer discretion advised" and that would've been that.

[Ironwood]

Having found it, I thought the point was the whole "ok, done the bear minimum to finish the quest, I can leave the rest to their unbearably horrific lives" silliness of most "heroic" MMO quests. I couldn't see anything wrong with the original comic as such.

There wasn't really anything wrong with the original comic.  But, people being people and 'triggers' being a valid thing, some had objections.  (My view here is that if you're triggery about that sort of thing, PA isn't the best place to hang out anyway, but hey ho).  Once the objections were lodged instead of 'Ok, Cool, Soz' or *BLANK SILENCE THAT RADIATES OUR DISREGARD* PA came out with 'Ha, fuck you anyway, you losers deserve rape'.

Which was, er, fun times for them.  What's silly about the whole thing is that they're a business and yet people who should have known better never, ever, ever took The Mic away (no pun intended) so they just kept on saying worse and worse and worse and worse things.

And here we are.

Listening to the 567th apology from this wee scrotum of a bloke, thinking it might, in some way, ever get better.

[Paelos]

I completely understand seeing something in entertainment, deciding it was offensive, and boycotting it.

I don't understand going beyond that. It always seems to be opportunist to whatever your cause-de-jour happens to be, and making it fit into the current teacup tempest.

Granted, raising a stink in other areas of life, I get that too. But entertainment? It's just too easily ignored and frankly not that important to the overall social politics of society.

[Ironwood]

Entertainment is no different than any other aspect of life mate.  I wrote a long post about it, but frankly it's my first day at a new job and I'm exhausted.

But it's no different.  People gotta crusade.

[Paelos]

Entertainment is no different than any other aspect of life mate.  I wrote a long post about it, but frankly it's my first day at a new job and I'm exhausted.

But it's no different.  People gotta crusade.

Yeah well I'm I suppose I'm no fan of crusaders on any topic.

[dusematic]

Having found it, I thought the point was the whole "ok, done the bear minimum to finish the quest, I can leave the rest to their unbearably horrific lives" silliness of most "heroic" MMO quests. I couldn't see anything wrong with the original comic as such.

 PA came out with 'Ha, fuck you anyway, you losers deserve rape'.

Right.  That's what they said.

[sickrubik]

I completely understand seeing something in entertainment, deciding it was offensive, and boycotting it.

I don't understand going beyond that. It always seems to be opportunist to whatever your cause-de-jour happens to be, and making it fit into the current teacup tempest.

Granted, raising a stink in other areas of life, I get that too. But entertainment? It's just too easily ignored and frankly not that important to the overall social politics of society.

How does anything go beyond it? That's what people have done. Voiced their concerns, attempted to use that time to raise awareness, and say "I'm not supporting them anymore".

Gabe/Tycho have a large platform, so if your goal is to make the world a fairer and safer place, it makes sense to attempt a dialogue. And when that dialogue has happened, there's been progress.

I'm not sure what you think is happening beyond that.

[Ironwood]

Having found it, I thought the point was the whole "ok, done the bear minimum to finish the quest, I can leave the rest to their unbearably horrific lives" silliness of most "heroic" MMO quests. I couldn't see anything wrong with the original comic as such.

 PA came out with 'Ha, fuck you anyway, you losers deserve rape'.

Right.  That's what they said.

Yeah, pretty much.  When you grow up you realise that you have two choices in this situation :  You apologise or you SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[dusematic]

Having found it, I thought the point was the whole "ok, done the bear minimum to finish the quest, I can leave the rest to their unbearably horrific lives" silliness of most "heroic" MMO quests. I couldn't see anything wrong with the original comic as such.

 PA came out with 'Ha, fuck you anyway, you losers deserve rape'.

Right.  That's what they said.

Yeah, pretty much.  When you grow up you realise that you have two choices in this situation :  You apologise or you SHUT THE FUCK UP.

So if I cam sum up your position, it's that there was nothing wrong with their comic, and then when people became distressed about it, PA "pretty much" told everyone they deserved to be raped, but you're not really sure.  Either way, it's immaterial to you since all true adults know that when people falsely accuse you of perpetuating rape culture, you only have two choices:  apology or SHUT THE FUCK UP.

I'm stunned by your acumen and powers of deduction.  You should look into cryogenics, we need to preserve this sort of wisdom for the ages.

[Goreschach]

You obviously haven't grokked the whole 'shut the fuck up' part.