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Author Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA]  (Read 139326 times)
Malakili
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Reply #105 on: November 13, 2013, 12:39:01 PM


LoL Season 4 stuff


Yea, adding another camp in the jungle and aiming to make carry style junglers viable really just screams "we know too much PvE is a problem in our game."  

 Ohhhhh, I see.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:41:39 PM by Malakili »
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #106 on: November 13, 2013, 12:42:43 PM

Not sure you understand the changes and what they address. Anyway, carry on.

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Malakili
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Reply #107 on: November 13, 2013, 12:48:03 PM

Not sure you understand the changes and what they address. Anyway, carry on.

Given that you apparently haven't really played MOBAs very much I'm not sure you know what you're talking about to begin with.  But hey, that has never stopped you before.

In any event, Blizzard seems to be creating a system in which objectives matter at least as much, if not more, than they do in LoL or DOTA.  So I'm not sure why we're having this conversation anyway.
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Reply #108 on: November 13, 2013, 12:53:40 PM

I'm glad Blizzard is going this direction, because the more I hear about LoL, the more I wonder why the hell people actually play it.
I've had a lot of fun with LoL, though haven't really bothered with many of the newer alternates since I'm invested into it (and enjoy it).  LoL is a step up from DotA 1 and 2 in that they cut down on some of the bullshit.  Like in those games, not only do you have to worry about last hitting, you have to worry about last hitting your OWN MINIONS.  So you can deny the other guy the ability to last it yours for cash and experience.  They also kept some other clunky mechanics LoL glossed over.  The whole experience is just tedious.  I'm sure people coming in at a more friendly level than LoL probably say the same thing about it, but at least we aren't in the very bottom circle of tedious game play hell.   awesome, for real

Also, DotA looks like ass.

This new Blizzard take on it looks interesting, I may give it a shot.  Just not sure how I feel about the no items thing.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #109 on: November 13, 2013, 01:10:56 PM

Given that you apparently haven't really played MOBAs very much I'm not sure you know what you're talking about to begin with.  

Sure.

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Reply #110 on: November 13, 2013, 02:26:37 PM

I'm glad Blizzard is going this direction, because the more I hear about LoL, the more I wonder why the hell people actually play it.

Because when it WORKS, when things click, it is utterly addicting.

Margalis
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Reply #111 on: November 13, 2013, 02:40:53 PM

You guys are wrong it hurts. I know its hard to accept.

I played mostly with my friends who were 30 for many many matches, while not being 30. Now in ranked they may not mater as much, but they sure do matter.

Before 30 you lack access to certain summoner spells, that's the big drawback. Summoners are super important. Runes and masteries make an overall maybe 5% or less difference. I pulled that number totally out of my ass, the point is all things being even they do make a difference but a guy with a better rune and mastery setup isn't going to beat someone better than them to any real degree.

Quote
If Pve didn't matter, you could not win matches with no kills and only minion farm and tower kills. OBJECTIVES matter more than kills, and they are PvE.

In a competitive game (by that I mean any game that isn't full of terrible players) the enemy will try to block you from taking objectives, take those objectives themselves, defend towers, harass you as you try to kill creeps, etc. Farming does not take place independent of the enemy team - only jungle comes anywhere close to this being the case.

Quote
But I understand, as a hardcore lol player, that's hard to hear. When numbers trump play in most cases in Lol.

If I am playing better than you how are you getting higher numbers (of creep kills) than I am? Answer: you aren't. Maybe you and your friends play super passive - super passive farming is not how the game is played these days. Farming is important but if you are farming better than your opponent it's probably because you are outplaying them. There are also plenty of matchups where you can come out behind on farm and still be ahead, for example Kassadin vs basically anyone.

You really don't know what you're talking about. It sounds like you're talking about a team of level 5 players vs bots honestly. PvE isn't really a thing in LoL, everything you are calling PvE involves the opposing team.

You're fundamentally confused with your comparison between WoW and LoL. In WoW the more time you spend the better items you get and the more powerful you become. In LoL spending time only gets you someplace until you hit 30. At that point playing more has no effect on masteries and only a small effect on runes as only a small percentage of runes are really useful. In a given game there's no such thing as spending more time than the other guy.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 02:48:40 PM by Margalis »

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Malakili
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Reply #112 on: November 13, 2013, 03:03:14 PM

I'm glad Blizzard is going this direction, because the more I hear about LoL, the more I wonder why the hell people actually play it.

Because when it WORKS, when things click, it is utterly addicting.

The basic idea comes from RTS, let's not forget.  Warcraft 3 has heroes in addition to all the normal RTS elements.  DOTA as a mod takes that Hero, puts it upfront, and automates the other things people often don't like about RTS games (building an economy, having to build units consistently (aka flawless macro) and controlling dozens of units at a time (aka lots of micro).  At it's heart, DOTA is about automating those things and letting the player control the powerful leader of that army and combining it with some in-match RPG-like progression.

It isn't hard to see, from my perspective, why that would be popular.
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Reply #113 on: November 13, 2013, 05:03:56 PM

I'm glad Blizzard is going this direction, because the more I hear about LoL, the more I wonder why the hell people actually play it.

Because when it WORKS, when things click, it is utterly addicting.

For sure and yet, when it doesn't work and your team is full of racial slurs and bile you want to gouge your own eyes out with a spoon.

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Megrim
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Reply #114 on: November 13, 2013, 06:03:22 PM

Hm, team-wide level ups sound interesting.

Is there some place one can watch the games from Blizzcon?

Seems that The Escapist got to repost  the Blizzcon games.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129491-Watch-Blizzard-Devs-Play-Two-Full-Rounds-of-Heroes-of-the-Storm

Also, in my search for that  I found this Gamespot article where the lead dev says they aren't calling this a MOBA,because of the mechanics changes.  It's just called a "hero brawler". Seems a fair point to concede, So the comparisons are now all on the gaming community because the two look similar.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/blizzard-explains-why-it-doesn-t-call-heroes-of-the-storm-a-moba/1100-6416084/

Cheers bro, that's really good to see in action.

Looks like it has potential, but calling it 'alpha' is certainly right, there is a long way to go yet.

I think the most important thing from watching the footage and the discussion you guys are having about last hitting / not last hitting &c - is that if the game has enough other things to manage (in this case it's neutral camp fights, multiple levels to fight on, and so forth) - this creates potential for an interesting dynamic layer, other than just "everybody teamfight all the time"."

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Typhon
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Reply #115 on: November 14, 2013, 05:59:53 AM

[snip!]
I think the most important thing from watching the footage and the discussion you guys are having about last hitting / not last hitting &c - is that if the game has enough other things to manage (in this case it's neutral camp fights, multiple levels to fight on, and so forth) - this creates potential for an interesting dynamic layer, other than just "everybody teamfight all the time"."

Completely agree with this, well said.  This is what I was trying to say with, 'doesn't mean you have to kill laning phase', and 'other game modes'.  It doesn't have to be towers, it doesn't have to be lanes, it just has to be strategic elements in addition to killing each other.  I like LoL's Dominion, I don't know if Blizzard is going that far a field, but I think so/hope so.  Even though I dislike last-hitting, I do like that the champs level up - some champs are early game beasts, some are late game beasts, you have to know what you are playing, and what the other team is playing and work with those strengths/weaknesses.
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Reply #116 on: November 15, 2013, 10:48:42 AM

I have never been a fan of DOTA and don't know much about its derivatives (LoL or HoN) but this actually looks fun. I like all the unique map objectives that create tactical dynamism all over the place, much better pacing than DOTA which looks very bland in comparison.
Viin
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Reply #117 on: November 15, 2013, 08:19:06 PM

Because when it WORKS, when things click, it is utterly addicting.
For sure and yet, when it doesn't work and your team is full of racial slurs and bile you want to gouge your own eyes out with a spoon.

This is every worthwhile multiplayer game in existence.

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Malakili
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Reply #118 on: November 15, 2013, 08:25:37 PM


This is every worthwhile multiplayer game in existence.

This genre really is worse though, because when a player does bad they are just hurting your team by not being helpful, they are actively making the opposing team stronger by feeding them gold.  It makes for a very hostile environment where your bad play really does have a disproportionately large impact on the rest of your team when compared to something like Team Fortress or Counter Strike, or whatever else.

Not to mention the fact that games can last upwards of an hour on the long side, and usually ~30 on average.  You're investing a lot of time and effort into any given game of DOTA or LoL when compared to the hop in/hop out multiplayer in a lot of other genres.

In the end, it means that when you have a great team and it all comes together, it is incredibly rewarding and satisfying.  When just one guy on your team is an asshat, you can waste away 30-40 minutes if your time.
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Reply #119 on: November 15, 2013, 09:04:15 PM

It seems this format would limit those terrifying lows and dizzying highs by making it more team oriented.

The problem with that, as I can see it, is that it doesn't follow the addict formula. They want the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

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Reply #120 on: November 15, 2013, 09:40:21 PM

In lol, PvE matters more then PvP. ( And the RPG elements, Runes and Mysteries trump all )

Runes and Masteries barely matter at all in LoL. They are easy to talk about because they are easily quantifiable so they get discussed in far greater proportion to how much they matter - some top players don't even bother with different rune pages because they're too lazy. I'm Gold and my runes / masteries are a joke.

LoL also doesn't really have PvE. In lane your lane opponent should be actively combating you, and even in jungle you need to gank, counter-invade, etc.

Don't know why this is the general consequences in this forum. I've had an account since beta if its ever gone under any circumstance I'd quit the game. Why? Because I can't imagine grinding up the IP to buy runes and champions again. To say runes and masteries don't matter is like saying leaving the base without starting items doesn't affect your laning. It's a rubbish concept. You can't "ramp up" if you can't keep up. And the best way to keep up is to stack as many early games advantages as possible. Hell with the right runes and masteries you can hold the equivalent of an extra doran's item. Or you can save your champ thousands of gold by giving your champion late game stats early. Like crit chance, cooldown, mana per level, etc etc. And that's the tip of the customization, you can end up with an entirely different champ and build order depending on masteries and runes you choose.

The genre (LoL) addiction comes from winning. The genre's crux is that no matter how badly you lose its never really your fault cause "someone else made a mistake". So bad players, which is most of the playerbase, can quietly think their gods after they master some basic aspects of the game and good players continue playing cause winning is simply very gratifying.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #121 on: November 16, 2013, 12:34:37 PM

^

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Malakili
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Reply #122 on: November 16, 2013, 12:57:46 PM


The genre (LoL) addiction comes from winning. The genre's crux is that no matter how badly you lose its never really your fault cause "someone else made a mistake". So bad players, which is most of the playerbase, can quietly think their gods after they master some basic aspects of the game and good players continue playing cause winning is simply very gratifying.

This is all true, but doesn't speak to the distinction between competitive play and casual play.  The reasons the game is casually popular has essentially nothing to do with what makes  (or doesn't make) the game competitive.   
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #123 on: November 16, 2013, 03:08:10 PM


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Reply #124 on: November 16, 2013, 04:47:26 PM

Ghosts everywhere....

Margalis
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Reply #125 on: November 17, 2013, 07:43:08 AM

It seems this format would limit those terrifying lows and dizzying highs by making it more team oriented.

I'm not sure how much of a difference it will make.

If I'm doing well and you're dying a lot and we fall behind the enemy team in gold and XP I'll blame you. And in that case I can't even win my lane individually as your poor play is dragging down the entire team.

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Reply #126 on: December 18, 2013, 08:01:13 AM


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Reply #127 on: December 18, 2013, 12:31:33 PM

I forgot about this thread. Looks like I missed out on a retarded argument.
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Reply #128 on: December 18, 2013, 04:37:13 PM

I forgot about this thread. Looks like I missed out on a retarded argument.
You could post that to about 90% of the threads on 99% of the message forums out there and still be 100% accurate.

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Reply #129 on: December 20, 2013, 12:49:46 PM

Well, in context of the normal retarded arguments we have.
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Reply #130 on: March 14, 2014, 01:03:26 PM

Apparently the technical Alpha began yesterday and there are a bunch of friends and family type people in (Casters, eSports types, etc). Here's a VOD from Husky.

I watched a few games on stream, and I'm not sure what I make of the game. There are a bunch of quite major departures from the standard MOBA archetype; my gut feeling is that high-level DOTA and LoL players are going to view this much the same way schild views Hearthstone; as an overly dumbed-down version of the game. I'm not sure I can see this becoming an eSport in the same way that DOTA and LoL are, although it is early days. The general skill cap, and the balance of the sub-objectives seems to throw everything a bit out of whack.

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Reply #131 on: March 14, 2014, 01:29:37 PM

Game looks kinda fun, but it's just two teams bashing at each other. Doesn't seem like there is any room for an individual to snowball or carry or make amazing plays. Not that fun to watch anyway.
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Reply #132 on: March 14, 2014, 02:56:12 PM

I am so fucking sick of the chunky art style they've been using for everything not Diablo.
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Reply #133 on: March 14, 2014, 03:43:32 PM

Yeah, it is getting a little old.

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Reply #134 on: March 14, 2014, 04:29:17 PM

I am so fucking sick of the chunky art style they've been using for everything not Diablo.

I'm sure you'll be thrilled with the HD remakes of Warcraft and Starcraft  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Margalis
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Reply #135 on: March 14, 2014, 07:37:17 PM

I am so fucking sick of the chunky art style they've been using for everything not Diablo.

Agreed. It's become almost self-parody, and there's a bit of Orwellian "we've always had this art style" thing going on when that really isn't the case historically. I think a lot of Blizzard products these days feel more like Blizzard imitators, which isn't surprising given that Blizzard seems to hire a lot of super-fans. They really need a team there willing to go outside the Blizzard box.

As far as the game itself (based on watching some streams)...in theory I like the focus on objectives, but in reality I find it annoying. In part because of the visuals, sounds, etc. (The pirate shit in particular) The game also exists in a weird spot where it's casual but not really - you get a lot of bonus XP for last hitting, so last-hitting still matters a lot.

To me it feels very much like Hearthstone - remove a lot of depth and add in a lot of achievements, quests, and other addictive but ultimately irrelevant elements. It's cool that there are heros-specific quests and such that unlock skins and colors I guess? But it doesn't mean much of the core game is middling.

I do like being able to choose talents, ults, etc on the fly. It's a more meaningful choice than skill order in other MOBAs. Not sure if that makes up for lack of items though.

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Reply #136 on: March 14, 2014, 08:35:25 PM

I thought they were doing away with last-hitting as part of making it more accessible than traditional MOBAs?
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Reply #137 on: March 14, 2014, 09:31:21 PM

I thought you get extra XP for last-hitting but I can't find anything about that, so maybe not.

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Reply #138 on: March 15, 2014, 05:06:36 AM

The live stream back around Blizzcon said something about last hitting being removed, IIRC. I linked it somewhere up-thread.

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Reply #139 on: March 15, 2014, 11:23:50 AM

As someone who likes, but is terrible at, MOBAs I welcome our dumbed-down overlords.

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