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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  PC/Console Gaming  |  Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA] 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA]  (Read 35714 times)
Hayduke
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Reply #35 on: November 11, 2013, 02:14:43 PM

Dawngate is a pretty good game.  Infinite Crisis...  Not so much.  However neither of them stray as far away from LoL as this game seems to.
Samprimary
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Reply #36 on: November 11, 2013, 04:15:58 PM

The way I want to describe LoL's scheme where you have to earn a library of heroes as opposed to being able to play any hero you want from the ground floor up is "and they were the last to be allowed to get away with it."
HaemishM
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Reply #37 on: November 11, 2013, 04:28:52 PM

Smite does the same thing as LoL in terms of champions, and it seems to be doing OK.

Infinite Crisis is... well, I played the beta about 4 times a few months ago if that tells you anything.

Falconeer
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Reply #38 on: November 11, 2013, 05:03:07 PM

Smite offered (and still offers) the awesome ultimate god pack. 24 moneys and you are set, with all gods present and futures, forever. It doesn't compete with DOTA 2's offer, but as a deal it feels very fair and me and my friends went for it feeling it was also a nice thing to do towards the developers. Basically, it is a full game for 24$. Hard to consider it uncool.

K9
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Reply #39 on: November 11, 2013, 05:10:07 PM

Every time I get back into LoL I play a handful of games, then realise that getting to level 30 is fucking grindy. Whoever implemented that system was a fucking tool. Levelling up in games usually makes your character feel stronger, levelling up in LoL just makes your character feel less shit. It's not fun.

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HaemishM
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Reply #40 on: November 11, 2013, 05:51:30 PM

The real tool at Riot is the assgoblin that came up with the league points system. I'd like to skullfuck that bitch with a rusty shiv.

Merusk
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Reply #41 on: November 11, 2013, 06:05:43 PM

Every time I get back into LoL I play a handful of games, then realise that getting to level 30 is fucking grindy. Whoever implemented that system was a fucking tool. Levelling up in games usually makes your character feel stronger, levelling up in LoL just makes your character feel less shit. It's not fun.

This is the reason I stopped playing LoL and gave my account to my daughter.  Whose friends also said "this is grindy, fuck this" and moved on.   awesome, for real

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #42 on: November 11, 2013, 07:06:44 PM

Millions of people still pay a $15 subscription for wow so it's really short-sighted to call any kind of payment model "dead"  LOL and DOTA do it differently, both are popular.  What does this say? It says that people like games and generally, how they spend money on them is irrelevant as long as those games are fun for them.

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Malakili
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Reply #43 on: November 11, 2013, 07:18:40 PM

Millions of people still pay a $15 subscription for wow so it's really short-sighted to call any kind of payment model "dead"  LOL and DOTA do it differently, both are popular.  What does this say? It says that people like games and generally, how they spend money on them is irrelevant as long as those games are fun for them.

Yes and No.  Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I generally still don't feel especially comfortable putting money into games regularly unless it is really my go-to game.  I know it's more and more about impulse buys and people spending little bits here and there on lots of different things, so I guess it's my "problem."  But I'm not going to spend money on a game like Heroes of the Storm if it's just "fun" it is going to have to be the MOST fun of all the similar options for me before I start forking over cash.
Bann
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Reply #44 on: November 11, 2013, 07:54:16 PM

Im excited for this. It's Blizzard's take on the genre that I've spent the majority of my gaming time in over the last 5ish years. I hope they knock this one out of that park.
MediumHigh
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Reply #45 on: November 12, 2013, 12:11:08 AM

I may pick up this game due to no last hitting. Not so thrilled about no items, plenty of spammy moba's out there with skill shots and no laning phase.

Riot LoL is hella grindy and I'd promptly quit the game if I ever got banned (I should consider selling my account..)

Millions of people still pay a $15 subscription for wow so it's really short-sighted to call any kind of payment model "dead"  LOL and DOTA do it differently, both are popular.  What does this say? It says that people like games and generally, how they spend money on them is irrelevant as long as those games are fun for them.

Millions of people pay $15 for WoW. Can't say the same for the rest of the subscription games. Millions of people pay %$! for LoL, Dota, random f2p mmo, etc etc etc etc etc.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:18:08 AM by MediumHigh »

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Typhon
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Reply #46 on: November 12, 2013, 07:26:16 AM

Millions of people still pay a $15 subscription for wow so it's really short-sighted to call any kind of payment model "dead"  LOL and DOTA do it differently, both are popular.  What does this say? It says that people like games and generally, how they spend money on them is irrelevant as long as those games are fun for them.

It's like you are paid advertisement for the sub based business model.  I don't think there is a single person on this board that doesn't know you pine for the glory days of the paid subscription, so I feel I have to ask this question.  If you aren't being paid to AstroTurf, why do you repeat yourself in so many threads on this topic?  OCD?  One-man crusade to turn back the tide of F2P?  What is it man, why do you do it?  Do you even know?

Now that I've scratched my OCD-impulse to fuck with Lakov about gaming business models, I have to say that I'm interested in this game due to the no last hitting, different game modes and short game times as well.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #47 on: November 12, 2013, 07:44:37 AM

Don't be a fucking idiot.  If anything I'm saying here that sub based models DON'T work for everyone, it works for some.  Why? Because people like that particular game.  So by the same token, it doesn't matter one flying fuck how HOTS sells their game, if they give out champions or not, if people like it.

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Paelos
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Reply #48 on: November 12, 2013, 08:31:54 AM

Someone please explain the significance of no last hitting please. What made it a PITA, and what is the solution here?

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Rasix
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Reply #49 on: November 12, 2013, 08:41:05 AM

In a MOBA, you do not get gold for a minion kill unless you got the very last hit on it.  This is all while another minion, an ability, someone else, or a tower could be hitting it as well.  

Last hitting introduces a lot of mechanical skill into the game, typically more than any other activity.  The best players were typically the best as timing this window for hitting.  Plus, while timing this hit, you had to worry about your opponent knowing that getting that last hit is something you want.  

As for what it's replaced with here? Dunno, haven't read.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?


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Nebu
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Reply #50 on: November 12, 2013, 09:30:04 AM

In a MOBA, you do not get gold for a minion kill unless you got the very last hit on it.  This is all while another minion, an ability, someone else, or a tower could be hitting it as well.  

I think it's all a philosophy.  In a pvp game, I'd prefer to focus on pvp skill rather than have my pve ability dictate the outcome of the early laning phase.  I think that's why I prefer team fights to the early phase of the game (last hits and lane farming).  I'm looking forward to giving this a try.  It will give me a nice contrast to LoL. 

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Paelos
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Reply #51 on: November 12, 2013, 09:31:23 AM

Last hitting sounds horrible and stupid tbh.

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Nebu
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Reply #52 on: November 12, 2013, 09:33:33 AM

Last hitting sounds horrible and stupid tbh.

It does add an element to the game that makes things challenging.  Being able to last hit a minion while simultaneously control lane space definitely takes skill.  


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Paelos
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Reply #53 on: November 12, 2013, 09:37:25 AM

It sounds like navigating a bad mechanic rather than a skill, or if it is a skill it only exists because the mechanic is stupid.

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Malakili
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Reply #54 on: November 12, 2013, 09:41:19 AM

It sounds like navigating a bad mechanic rather than a skill, or if it is a skill it only exists because the mechanic is stupid.

So it shooting a basketball, or swinging a golf club, or pitching a baseball, if that's the road you want to go down.
Nebu
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Reply #55 on: November 12, 2013, 09:42:26 AM

It sounds like navigating a bad mechanic rather than a skill, or if it is a skill it only exists because the mechanic is stupid.

It makes more sense in the context of the whole game.  The idea is to gain advantage by outfarming your opponent early.  If you both just sat back and watched your minions die while collecting equal gold, then it wouldn't be a very exciting process in the early game.  Last hitting introduces a risk-reward system created to add a strategic element when you lack the gear/abilities in the first few levels for proper team fighting.  

I'm sure the people that are into LoL hardcore could justify it better.  

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Paelos
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Reply #56 on: November 12, 2013, 09:57:17 AM

But why last hit instead of most damage on that unit? Why wouldn't that have the same effect without the nonsense?

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KallDrexx
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Reply #57 on: November 12, 2013, 10:21:34 AM

I believe (or maybe i'm talking out of my ass, both are equally possible) that last hit was in the original DOTA because of the way WC3's hero engine functioned.  Thus it became part of the meta game and all the hardcore pvpers developed strategies around it, which then caused it to be replecated in the dota-clones.
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #58 on: November 12, 2013, 10:32:02 AM

Last hitting does add depth and so do all the various "un-intended" tricks in fighting games.  However I'm not sure it's needed for depth if the game itself has other ways to add depth while removing last hitting.

What I'm saying is last hitting is a bad mechanic that does add to the game but could possibly be removed without detriment if replaced with something else to advance skill levels.

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ezrast
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Reply #59 on: November 12, 2013, 10:37:25 AM

Quote
HOTS
Dude why would you release two titles in a row with the same acronym and nearly the same name.
Paelos
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Reply #60 on: November 12, 2013, 10:39:47 AM

I believe (or maybe i'm talking out of my ass, both are equally possible) that last hit was in the original DOTA because of the way WC3's hero engine functioned.  Thus it became part of the meta game and all the hardcore pvpers developed strategies around it, which then caused it to be replecated in the dota-clones.

That seems most likely, because I think if you approached it today with no preconceived notions about it, nobody would actually design the game that way. That's why I think Blizzard is ignoring it.

Now, does that mean they should wrap everything up in teams completely? No, I think there should be some individuality involved.

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Bann
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Reply #61 on: November 12, 2013, 11:22:24 AM

Last hitting is sort of pointless in a game without items. I've not heard it stated anywhere specifically, but is there even gold in this game? It seems like the only method to improve your character is via skillups which can follow divergent paths. I wonder if its much tougher to snowball in a game without items/gold because I cannot use my gold advantage to get further ahead, or way easier to snowball because the level advantage I assume I get if I kill you 3 times in lane makes my skills way more likely to kill you over and over.

I imagine that if all skills if landed do a significant amount of damage/disable and are not big passive upgrades to a character, games are much less likely to snowball (or if you a pessimist, playing well early is way less meaningful.)
Threash
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Reply #62 on: November 12, 2013, 11:58:46 AM

I don't understand why they stick with the RTS style control scheme.  That was a limitation of the original game, not a feature.  It makes no sense to control a single character the way you are meant to control an army.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #63 on: November 12, 2013, 12:34:54 PM

Last hitting sounds horrible and stupid tbh.

It does add an element to the game that makes things challenging.  Being able to last hit a minion while simultaneously control lane space definitely takes skill.  



It also makes the game play for the support really really boring. Not to mention, turning a PvP out-power-your-opponent game into something based of PvE.

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Fordel
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Reply #64 on: November 12, 2013, 01:29:07 PM

But why last hit instead of most damage on that unit? Why wouldn't that have the same effect without the nonsense?

If it was just damage dealt, it would change lane presence, or require a lack of it. Like on a Windrunner, I could just drop powershot into a creepwave from max range and collect gold from max distance with no danger to myself.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #65 on: November 12, 2013, 01:34:06 PM

But why last hit instead of most damage on that unit? Why wouldn't that have the same effect without the nonsense?

Because there are allied NPCs beating on the creature too, and they'd almost alwys have the most damage done. You can't spend all your time beating on the NPCs because you have to do a lot of keep away and harrassing with the opposing players in your lane. Basically its a lot more interesting to be darting in and getting the last hit while spending most of your attention on the opposing player than just beating on the mobs so you get enough damage would be. (DOTA 1/2 has an extra wrinkle in which you can deny gold to your opponent by last hitting your OWN guys, that's where most of the debate around this feature actually exists.)

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #66 on: November 12, 2013, 01:34:39 PM

But why last hit instead of most damage on that unit? Why wouldn't that have the same effect without the nonsense?
Windrunner,

I am still baffled at how popular a knock-off IP can get.  I'm not saying DOTA gameplay isn't original or anything but man it's like a porn called "lord of the cock rings" with dildo shaggins.  

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Reply #67 on: November 12, 2013, 01:45:13 PM

But why last hit instead of most damage on that unit? Why wouldn't that have the same effect without the nonsense?

Because there are allied NPCs beating on the creature too, and they'd almost alwys have the most damage done.

What if it was just player damage done? NPC damage didn't count.

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Ingmar
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Reply #68 on: November 12, 2013, 01:48:04 PM

Then you could do what Fordel described, and anyone with a ranged AE would have a completely unbalancing advantage in farming. I'm not going to say that there isn't a possibly better way to do it, but the way it is right now works and is actually pretty fun. I get what you're thinking about it though, I thought it sounded stupid before I tried it as well.

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Reply #69 on: November 12, 2013, 01:48:47 PM

Last hitting is simply a more friendly way of distributing gold/advantage than more PVP oriented ones.

Lets take Dominion a League of Legends mode as an example. The focus of that game is more capture point. Because the game objective is capture point more PVP is had but to encourage even more PVP they trippled the gold gain per minute so "farming creep" is effectively slower than say "killing other players to death". The benefit is that for a while they turned league of legends into more of a team death match style game, but that has some trends.

1. If a player is simple better than you are the chances of you ever getting a kill on him diminishes every-time he gets a kill on you.

Now LoL originally did something brilliant in that game mode , which was to make the rate of gold so high that some champs can hit their "power plateau" very easily regardless of their score. If someone is murdering you repeatedly you can, if your game savy enough, counter their build midway through the game (and even if you weren't that smart you can still reliable get the three items you need if your not afking or your champion isn't ridiculously late game oriented).

This led to what Riot basically hates and that is rubbernecking, i.e it mattered less how leet you were in the early game, adjusting, adapting, and eventually exploiting your opponent tend to win out over simply getting a few kills early and babysitting your lead. So they adjusted the gold gain (and killed the mode honestly) so that the opponents are far less likely to bounce back in a meaningful way.

Personally I think that new gold rate cuddled bad players more than good ones as the old system was still brutally honest about how good you were. If there was a genuine gap in skill your gold rate is going to be twice the size of theirs regardless. With the slower rate you can basically take advantage of any early game matchups and coast your way into victory because being behind is less of an disadvantage you can beat by being smarter or better organized or focusing on certain mechanics.

2. Gaining early from kills, tends to lead to ridiculous snow balls.

Where being a hyper carry from creep score, while tedious at least "evens out" the gold to be given. Both sides up to a point can pve with some impunity so getting behind a few kills on summoners rift, while game over in one sense due to the sheer gold advantage gained from said kills, isn't entirely a death sentence. At least one felt rightaway. Yeah your team fighting will suck if you feed riven to 3/1, but as long as you have access to creep waves you can farm some of that advantage off (or at least not fall terrible behind). But when all meaningful amount of gold comes from kills? That jax that got fed 3 kills is going to get 4 more kills in the next 2 minutes, than 3 more in 30 seconds, than 5 more a minute from now. Jax is going to 20/1/2 near the end of the game or worse. And the only way to get gold? Kill the 20/1 jax.

3. Champ diversity was limited.

Last hitting and the laning phase in general, allows most champs to ramp up at a similar rate. Range ADC's are giving the time to gain the items they need, support champions can slowly get their necessary items, and so on and so forth. Champs could be strong or weak in the early, mid and late game and still do reasonably well. Dominion? Tanky dps all day every day. The better the early game the higher the chance of snowball and the less likely the enemy team can counter. Some supports can make it, some adc's could cut it but not all.

So yeah last hitting exist for a reason, is it necessary for all games... no but that's a matter of design. If your game distributes advantages and expects players to exploit the mechanism for doing so either by denying or snowball, while at the same time keeping the game competitive for longer than 5 minutes..... you have your work cut out for you.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 01:54:48 PM by MediumHigh »

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