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Author Topic: Heroes of the Storm [a.k.a Blizzard DoTA]  (Read 139325 times)
Paelos
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Reply #70 on: November 12, 2013, 11:51:25 AM

I see your points, but it just doesn't sound like good design if you haven't already become addicted to it.

I can see why Blizzard would try something else, is what I'm getting at.

I played DOTA 2 for about an hour and wandered off for something else, so I'm obviously not their audience, but I might be for something simpler that the MOBA pros scoff at.

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Reply #71 on: November 12, 2013, 11:54:00 AM

Smite makes last hitting give you MORE gold but as long as you are within a certain range of the deaths of minions, you get both gold and exp. So it's not absolutely necessary as a mechanic.

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Reply #72 on: November 12, 2013, 12:10:28 PM

I can't speak for how LoL works, but in Dota, you can absolutely build a lineup around the idea of farming heroes instead of creeps. Won't even need a carry, just gaming heroes and balls  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #73 on: November 12, 2013, 12:12:33 PM

Um, I'm confus.

Both dota and league give gold to a player per tick of time. Killing creep just gives more gold, as well as xp.

Now, MediumHigh's good explanation notwithstanding, another way to think of it is giving players a simple objective.

All of these sorts of games tend to work on the principle that you want to blow up the other guys' base. To do that you assist your creep in pushing down towers. To do that, you kill their creep so that they don't push yours. Therefore both sides attempt to contest this mechanic (and the game develops from there).

What don't you like about this, Paelos?


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Paelos
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Reply #74 on: November 12, 2013, 12:22:43 PM

I just think last hitting sounds silly. It's like a reverse form of mob-tagging in MMOs.

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Reply #75 on: November 12, 2013, 01:09:13 PM

I'm with Paelos; last hitting is dumb.

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Reply #76 on: November 12, 2013, 01:28:35 PM

I believe (or maybe i'm talking out of my ass, both are equally possible) that last hit was in the original DOTA because of the way WC3's hero engine functioned.  Thus it became part of the meta game and all the hardcore pvpers developed strategies around it, which then caused it to be replecated in the dota-clones.

You are 100% correct, last hitting is in DOTA because the WC3 engine.  Because people hate change, it's now become just another part of the 'skillz!' required to play MOBAs.  It's tedious and as far as I'm concerned adds little to the genre.  I can do it.  I just don't enjoy doing it.
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Reply #77 on: November 12, 2013, 02:12:05 PM

I thinking some form of it is worth having.  One of the things it allows is lane control, and that is a pretty big part of laning in MOBAs.  If damage on the creep matters, then you have to be auto attacking all the time, and then you're pushing your lane, which you don't always want to do.  On that note, even if it is only player damage, then essentially you're just back to last hitting again if you don't want to push the lane.

If you just get all the gold no matter what, then you might as well do away with creeps altogether aside from the fact that you want them there for pushing down towers to absorb hits.

More to the point, it seems like what Blizzard is REALLY doing here with Heroes of the Storm is nuking the laning phase from orbit altogether.  That is what separates this from other MOBAs more substantially.
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Reply #78 on: November 12, 2013, 02:16:46 PM

Ok, what are the pros and cons to nuking the laning phase?

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Reply #79 on: November 12, 2013, 02:27:33 PM

http://www.bloodlinechampions.com/

You get a different game altogether.

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Reply #80 on: November 12, 2013, 02:29:46 PM

That doesn't answer the question.

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Reply #81 on: November 12, 2013, 02:31:13 PM

Ok, what are the pros and cons to nuking the laning phase?

Well, it means there is likely to be a lot more roaming around the map from the beginning, more team fights and more reward for keeping your entire team or most of your team together the entire match.   Since you are dealing with team level and more passive gold gain, splitting your team up for purposes of maximizing your XP/gold on certain heroes is no longer relevant. It also means neutral objectives are probably going to play a larger role throughout the game than they do in other MOBAs (even LoL, which has some pretty significant focus on them throughout due to the buffs they give).  This last point is something they mentioned during the panel about the game - neutral objectives seem to have a pretty big role in the game.

It isn't *quite* Bloodline champions, because it isn't just an arena/deathmatch game. But it does seem to be leaning more in that direction.

EDIT: It occurs to me that you might not know what "the laning phase" is to begin with.  It is the part at the beginning of the game where different characters go into different lanes to, usually with the goal of getting maximum gold and levels.  There is some roaming/ganking in this phase, but few full on team fights, as teams try to maximize their gold/exp going into the mid game.  In particular, teams want to get their carries (their late game-centric heroes) off to a good start so that they can do their maximum damage later in the game.  It is possible for some, rare, team compositions to try and be hyper aggressive early and attempt to force team fights and objectives early on, but it is relatively rare across MOBA games in my experience.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 02:38:49 PM by Malakili »
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Reply #82 on: November 12, 2013, 03:13:15 PM

Removing last hit doesn't de facto remove the laning phase.  There are all sorts of nobs to twist with the design prior to just killing off the laning phase.  Removing last hit does raise a lot of questions - is there still money/experience tied to the creeps?  If yes, do you have to do creep damage to get the money (currently you don't have to hit to get exp, I'll assume that is staying the same).  How much damage do the creeps do to the towers?

The things I find interesting about the laning phase are zone of control and whether or not your are pushing the lane via creep waves.  If you quick clear an enemy wave and let your creep line hit there tower (after you force the opposition to bluepill), you are safely pushing that lane or causing jungle to pull out of jungle to cover the lane. 

Similar to last-hit, I find the ward battle and the zero-cs (cs is what they call creep kill, I can't remember what cs stands for though) support champ role unappetizing.

Removing last hit definitely reduces the snowball effect on players who have poor farm and makes the game significantly more about player versus player match-ups.  If you are a person who last hits like a pro and is used to having more cash then most of your opponents I can see how you would shy away from games that do not have that mechanism.
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Reply #83 on: November 12, 2013, 03:31:10 PM

That doesn't answer the question.

wat

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Reply #84 on: November 12, 2013, 04:08:19 PM

Laneing and last hitting are dumb and boring parts of the game.  DoTA is adding objectives to the map because they aren't bound to this silly, silly set of mechanics.  The team vs. team matches I watched looked much more interesting than LoL matches from the get go, AND more fun to play.  Bonus that they took a lot less time to play.  The full set of 3 matches at Blizzcon took only an hour.

So I'd say they're not trying to go after LoL or DoTA so much as find a market that likes the idea but hates some of the mechanics.

ed: Also -it looks like teams level up vs. individual heroes, so you don't wind-up with one guy who's great at laning/ last hitting who is 2 levels beyond your crappy pubbie.  This is a mixed bag in some ways as 2 crappy players will kill your whole team.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 04:10:00 PM by Merusk »

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Reply #85 on: November 12, 2013, 04:11:41 PM

I don't have any problem with last hitting personally; I don't think it's a bad mechanic. It's just one of a bunch of mechanisms that allow the game to differentiate between players of different skill. I guess an analogy would be the ability to micro individual units out of a blob in Starcraft 2. It's a skill that better players develop and become progressively better at, and it gives them a competitive edge. If you changed it so you could only control units en-masse, it would even out the skill curve a bit, but it wouldn't make the game better per-se. There will be other differentiators that still persist, and become more important.

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Reply #86 on: November 12, 2013, 04:13:04 PM

Hm, team-wide level ups sound interesting.

Is there some place one can watch the games from Blizzcon?

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Reply #87 on: November 12, 2013, 08:27:49 PM

Ok, what are the pros and cons to nuking the laning phase?
Laning phase is a chance for the player to exert influence over an area of the game mostly independently from the rest of their team. This is good because it gives players a sense of individual accomplishment outside of the team's success. You can lose a game and still feel good about it if you stomped your opponent in lane phase. It also forces some ad-hoc strategic decisions on the part of the team based on how lane phase shakes out. Maybe your split-pusher gets super fed early so you convert them into a full tank to protect your flagging carries, or something.

Having distinct game phases also allows for heroes to be balanced around those phases in interesting ways, so there's room for champions who are bad at team fights but have a great early game in an aggressive comp.

The downside is that many people find laning phase to be uninteresting, especially from an esport perspective because a caster can only focus on one lane at once.
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Reply #88 on: November 12, 2013, 09:15:59 PM

Without laning you have would have almost 100% team fights, reducing/eliminating the need for gank heroes to take advantage of careless, wandering enemies. Team fights are fun, but I do think the early build up of the heroes during the game is a critical part that must be managed by a skilled team, working semi-independently. Without this meta/chess-like control of the other team's growth (and your own), you simply have team fights with the most coordinated button smashers winning.

If Blizz can come up with an alternative (removing last hitting is probably OK as long as there is something to keep the hereos engaged in the lanes), it'll be interesting to see what it is.

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Reply #89 on: November 12, 2013, 09:30:51 PM

Ok, what are the pros and cons to nuking the laning phase?

Pro: Game moves faster: See League of Legend's Dominion mode (which is actually a lot of fun if you know what you're doing). Games have no clearly defined temporal structure and so there tends to be a singular design mentality.

This is the twitch channel of the most prominent Dominion tournament: I like dominion(and know one of the best Dominion players in the world), but there is no ranked mode so no one plays it

http://www.twitch.tv/dominategamingtv

Con: Games have a less defined temporal structure; In summoners rift there is a definite early game, mid game, and lategame. Its best to talk about these backwards: The lategame is the point at which team fights happen because clear wins mean multiple objectives fall and one or two people cannot hold objectives against the entire enemy team. The mid game is right before this when skirmishes happen; a few determined defenders can hold objectives against all but the entire enemy team, but making the rotation to put your entire team at a spot can leave a single enemy to gain a significant advantage. The early game is where even if the enemy team grouped up it could not gain more of an advantage than the 5 single people working alone.

This gives a clear position about when certain types of champions can make their mark in the game, and the types of milestones necessary for champions of the varying sorts to carry in the parts of the game they're not strong ing. Champions which are good at skirmishing are very strong in the mid game because they can catch people out and create situations where you have an advantage that cannot be answered. Champions which are good at dueling are good early because they can gain an advantage which cannot be surmounted later. Champions which team fight well are good lategame because splitting up is a recipe for disaster unless you're way ahead

-----

So if you design a summoners rift type game (I.E. objectives are gated by individual and team strength) with no individual power differentiation it strongly tends towards a dominant temporal disposition with regards to team comp. That is the optimal will be to build a team of early game champions who win everything early game and end the game. Or the optimal will be to build a team fight and then win late because of your team fight. Whichever of these that occurs (I.E. lategame team comps or early game team comps will be dominant) the outcome of the match will be determined less by individual skill and more by individual champion or team composition counters.

Because individual advantages can accrue in league teams can "outlast" other teams until their scaling comes in. They can play around single champions who get strong, by focusing them down, and by buying items to reduce their damage type. Etc etc. But I can't do that if your ADC and tank get fed by virtue of your Leblanc getting kills in lane.

The thing that minion kills/last hits primarily does is it provides differentiated values for "winning the lane". I.E. pushing someone out of lane and preventing them from last hitting is different than killing them is different than dominating them slightly. Without this mechanic the only way to get a significant gold advantage is to kill the enemy(or entirely zone him and freeze the lane*). But we both want gold advantage to be accrueable without killing someone and also without totally zoning and freezing the lane (because this is boring).

*this is kind of effective but kind of not. Generally pushing your lane into tower and harassing is considered a stronger play in most lanes except maybe top lane very early.
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Reply #90 on: November 12, 2013, 11:36:53 PM

It would seem to me (certainly no expert) that some more choice in the hero skills (a tree rather than just 4 skills to level up) could provide some of the mechanics that the item store does -- ability to make choices to adjust to or counter your opponents -- but without the somewhat excessive (to a dabbler at least) complexity of the item store choices.
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Reply #91 on: November 13, 2013, 03:16:46 AM

Hm, team-wide level ups sound interesting.

Is there some place one can watch the games from Blizzcon?

Seems that The Escapist got to repost  the Blizzcon games.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129491-Watch-Blizzard-Devs-Play-Two-Full-Rounds-of-Heroes-of-the-Storm

Also, in my search for that  I found this Gamespot article where the lead dev says they aren't calling this a MOBA,because of the mechanics changes.  It's just called a "hero brawler". Seems a fair point to concede, So the comparisons are now all on the gaming community because the two look similar.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/blizzard-explains-why-it-doesn-t-call-heroes-of-the-storm-a-moba/1100-6416084/
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 03:18:48 AM by Merusk »

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Reply #92 on: November 13, 2013, 08:52:18 AM

Hm, team-wide level ups sound interesting.

Is there some place one can watch the games from Blizzcon?

Seems that The Escapist got to repost  the Blizzcon games.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/129491-Watch-Blizzard-Devs-Play-Two-Full-Rounds-of-Heroes-of-the-Storm

Also, in my search for that  I found this Gamespot article where the lead dev says they aren't calling this a MOBA,because of the mechanics changes.  It's just called a "hero brawler". Seems a fair point to concede, So the comparisons are now all on the gaming community because the two look similar.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/blizzard-explains-why-it-doesn-t-call-heroes-of-the-storm-a-moba/1100-6416084/

Hero brawler.

I wonder why Blizz hasn't tried to make Super Smash Bros.
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Reply #93 on: November 13, 2013, 09:11:49 AM

Looks like fun from the videos.  I'm in.

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Reply #94 on: November 13, 2013, 09:17:05 AM

ed: Also -it looks like teams level up vs. individual heroes, so you don't wind-up with one guy who's great at laning/ last hitting who is 2 levels beyond your crappy pubbie.  This is a mixed bag in some ways as 2 crappy players will kill your whole team.

In LOL, one crappy player can fuck up an entire team.

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Reply #95 on: November 13, 2013, 10:20:36 AM

ed: Also -it looks like teams level up vs. individual heroes, so you don't wind-up with one guy who's great at laning/ last hitting who is 2 levels beyond your crappy pubbie.  This is a mixed bag in some ways as 2 crappy players will kill your whole team.

In LOL, one crappy player can fuck up an entire team.

And one skilled player can win the entire game (on the right hero).
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Reply #96 on: November 13, 2013, 10:32:41 AM

In lol, PvE matters more then PvP. ( And the RPG elements, Runes and Mysteries trump all )

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Reply #97 on: November 13, 2013, 10:58:17 AM

In lol, PvE matters more then PvP. ( And the RPG elements, Runes and Mysteries trump all )

Early game. Mid to late game, it matters not at all if the team who is losing can level themselves up to max level and build.

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Reply #98 on: November 13, 2013, 12:03:52 PM

In lol, PvE matters more then PvP. ( And the RPG elements, Runes and Mysteries trump all )

Runes and Masteries barely matter at all in LoL. They are easy to talk about because they are easily quantifiable so they get discussed in far greater proportion to how much they matter - some top players don't even bother with different rune pages because they're too lazy. I'm Gold and my runes / masteries are a joke.

LoL also doesn't really have PvE. In lane your lane opponent should be actively combating you, and even in jungle you need to gank, counter-invade, etc.

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Reply #99 on: November 13, 2013, 12:06:01 PM

In lol, PvE matters more then PvP. ( And the RPG elements, Runes and Mysteries trump all )

Nope. Only you would say something this factually off base.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #100 on: November 13, 2013, 12:20:34 PM

You guys are wrong it hurts. I know its hard to accept.

I played mostly with my friends who were 30 for many many matches, while not being 30. Now in ranked they may not mater as much, but they sure do matter. Its wow level of power gaps ( Especially depending on the stacking of runes.) If Pve didn't matter, you could not win matches with no kills and only minion farm and tower kills. OBJECTIVES matter more than kills, and they are PvE. The early game farm nearly always determines the match. Its all based on money gained ETC.. I personally find Lol extreamly hard to categorize as a competitive game. But I understand, as a hardcore lol player, that's hard to hear. When numbers trump play in most cases in Lol. In Truth, its the PvE and power progression with no answer that IS the draw for most, if they realize it or not. While it pretends to be a pure PvP game. They are addressing a good deal of this in Season 4 changes. It will still be about who farms best, earliest. This is outside of good teamwork, which can, if the gap is not to big, turn tides of matches, but that's somewhat rare and almost requires your opponents to make some really bad moves. Usually because they have been steamrolling so hard in team fights it goes to the head.

Its analogous to Wow open world PvP, where your opponent has items and weapons that hit for more then you even have health. That's also why they have a "Baron" buff.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:23:41 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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Malakili
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Reply #101 on: November 13, 2013, 12:30:08 PM

First of all, by that definition, Bloodworth, practically any objective based PvP game isn't really PvP because you could hypothetically win without killing people.

Second of all:

Quote
When numbers trump play in most cases in Lol.

You can get ahead in LoL, but you start the match equally. Now, there is some snowball effect with getting ahead due to the way leveling and items work, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the game is mostly PvE, there are plenty of purely PvP games where snowballing happens.
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Reply #102 on: November 13, 2013, 12:35:54 PM

Ill just leave you with this:

Quote
So, what's happening?

First, let me share this year's preseason goals:

    Introduce more gameplay and strategy when it comes to map vision and wards.
    Ensure all roles and positions can experience power-growth and progression in ways that promote skill
    Improve game pacing and reduce team snowballing

To us, these goals are benchmarks for a more competitive and enjoyable environment, and they particularly focus on systems in need of love.

Riot knows what I have said is true. Its been a root MOBA problem for a long time.

there are plenty of purely PvP games where snowballing happens.

Sure, but that's not hinged on playing against the environment and AI now is it?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:37:28 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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Paelos
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Reply #103 on: November 13, 2013, 12:37:06 PM

I'm glad Blizzard is going this direction, because the more I hear about LoL, the more I wonder why the hell people actually play it.

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Reply #104 on: November 13, 2013, 12:38:05 PM

I'm glad Blizzard is going this direction, because the more I hear about LoL, the more I wonder why the hell people actually play it.

I enjoy Smite much much more, but my friends play Lol. That's the only reason I boot it up. Many of them wont convert due to investment, and the lack of RTS controls. They are not action players in this regard, even if they think Smite is really really fun.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 12:41:30 PM by Mrbloodworth »

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