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Author Topic: Bitch Thread for Warlords of Draenor  (Read 218774 times)
Paelos
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Reply #665 on: April 30, 2014, 09:38:05 AM

We see way too much of the bad guy. I agree with the idea that Lich King pushed the Big Bad to the forefront of just everyday stuff, and it wasn't a good idea. I don't need to see the Lich King wandering about in a 5 man dungeon giving orders that we all know we're going to beat.

The bad guys need to be like Sauron. Whispers of a nameless fear in the East. The old gods are better bad guys in that regard.

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Rendakor
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Reply #666 on: April 30, 2014, 09:40:10 AM

If all they drop are subtle hints, you get 90% of the playerbase going "Who's that?" when you get to the end of a raid.

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Reply #667 on: April 30, 2014, 09:45:21 AM

If all they drop are subtle hints, you get 90% of the playerbase going "Who's that?" when you get to the end of a raid.

You don't have to be subtle. You also don't have to have the final boss actually show up in random quests. They have cut scenes in game now that can describe lore events.

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Reply #668 on: April 30, 2014, 10:05:11 AM

We see way too much of the bad guy. I agree with the idea that Lich King pushed the Big Bad to the forefront of just everyday stuff, and it wasn't a good idea. I don't need to see the Lich King wandering about in a 5 man dungeon giving orders that we all know we're going to beat.

The bad guys need to be like Sauron. Whispers of a nameless fear in the East. The old gods are better bad guys in that regard.

I disagree.  Having the Lich King show up every once in a while twirling his mustache was cool.

Deathwing was raid locked.  Feh.  Except when it shows up to burn you on the ground.
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Reply #669 on: April 30, 2014, 10:22:13 AM

I think it's a good design decision, it increased the world's size from a perception point of view. Unfortunately it changes the playstyle of all of your subscribers have gotten used to for like 10 years which makes it a really really controversial decision.

At least it forces them to maybe create some interesting content that isn't collect X or kill Y a million times every day all day.

For me personally, WOW's combat is incredibly dull after playing tab target/hotbar stuff for 15+ years. The only reason I can stomach it in Archeage is because the combo system is neat (kind of) and that game has some really interesting systems. Malakili was right though, if they made combat more engaging and interesting (which they will never change anyway), killing an aggro mob won't be a chore, it'll be an interest short interaction.

Killing an NPC in a game like TERA or ESO was entertaining because at least you had to aim your retical. Personally, I liked that.
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Reply #670 on: April 30, 2014, 10:25:21 AM

The Lich King's appearances and story could've been handled better but I liked his presence. Everything I did in Cata kinda felt pointless, whereas the whole overarching war against Arthas thing in WoTLK was pretty persistent. Naxxramas for example felt like it made a lot more sense than the first couple raids in Cata; I mean it's floating right there over a great big town it blew up and there's a front fighting against it. The Twilight Spire is uh...there I guess? Not a terrible convenient teleporter for their forces really, nor did it really give the impression of them projecting their forces despite the highlands being festooned with their guys.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Paelos
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Reply #671 on: April 30, 2014, 10:45:27 AM

Maybe I'm in the minority on that then, but I felt that seeing these guys wandering around in tiny version really confused the issue.

Not being able to actually kill the Lich King was just typical Blizzard Setback nonsense.

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luckton
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Reply #672 on: April 30, 2014, 12:21:41 PM

After three days of suspense, Bliz has enlightened us with their intentions for raiding in WoD.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/13942448/dev-watercooler-raiding-azeroth-part-3-warlords-of-draenor-4-30-2014

tl;dr - Flex is the new Normal, Normal is the new Heroic, Mythic will utterly destroy you, and LFR loots get ghetto armor skins and no set bonuses.  Also, we're gonna try that Group Finder thing that other MMOs have had for DECADES.

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Reply #673 on: April 30, 2014, 12:29:18 PM

and LFR loots get ghetto armor skins and no set bonuses.  

"After destroying almost every single raid guild, we've decided it was a mistake and have killed the quality of LFR loot.  We hope this doesn't cause you to unsub after having gotten used to the convenience of LFR for your phat lewts over scheduled raid days with a guild."

Dumbasses.

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Paelos
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Reply #674 on: April 30, 2014, 12:33:20 PM

Yeah the LFR loot changes are the exact opposite of the intent of LFR. It's too see the bosses and make progression unrelated to the raiding guilds. Who gives a fuck if they feel the need to run it? That's their problem, and they are in the minority.

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Mithas
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Reply #675 on: April 30, 2014, 12:39:59 PM

Once again they listened to the vocal minority bitching about people getting stuff for free without putting effort in.
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Reply #676 on: April 30, 2014, 12:43:10 PM

I'm fine with the changes.  If I want more epic lootz, I'll go get into a flex group.  As it stands, now that I work two jobs to support the wife and two kids, I ain't got time for that stuff.  A quick romp through a zone so I can see content/lorelol/have fun is good.  And now apparently they're applying flex-rules to LFR, so a full raid of 25 huntards isn't required anymroe.

Also, the Group Finder thing has to be a response to oQueue.  We "had" a group finder before in vanilla, but they ripped it out in exchange for Meeting Stones.  Since they apparently can't break oQueue without breaking some of their own Bnet features, they're gonna fight it instead.

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

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Simond
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Reply #677 on: April 30, 2014, 01:11:52 PM

I like how every expac since WOTLK makes the game worse and worse.  It's like every expac gets a new dev team who then throw the baby out with the bathwater for their new ideas.  Should some of the game mechanics have been updated?  Yes.  But their vision past the Lich King seems haphazard and unfocused.
MoP was a order of magnitude better than Cataclysm with only the stupid daily quest/faction onion the wrong decision, which pretty much got shanked in the first patch and head-shot in the second. So much for "worse and worse".
Also:
https://twitter.com/ckaleiki/status/461302157417775104

 Rock Out

(They clarified later: Not your actual items, but quest/token/etc. stuff for the zone)

tl;dr - Flex is the new Normal, Normal is the new Heroic, Mythic will utterly destroy you, and LFR loots get ghetto armor skins and no set bonuses. 
And twice as much loot.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 01:14:53 PM by Simond »

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Reply #678 on: April 30, 2014, 01:26:55 PM

tl;dr - Flex is the new Normal, Normal is the new Heroic, Mythic will utterly destroy you, and LFR loots get ghetto armor skins and no set bonuses. 
And twice as much loot.

And unique LFR-only art. All a matter of perspective.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Paelos
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Reply #679 on: April 30, 2014, 01:35:54 PM

tl;dr - Flex is the new Normal, Normal is the new Heroic, Mythic will utterly destroy you, and LFR loots get ghetto armor skins and no set bonuses. 
And twice as much loot.

And unique LFR-only art. All a matter of perspective.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Twice as much loot is an issue. I'm not sure they understand how many people play LFR and that's it. If they make it so LFR is just two entries and you have full gear? Those people aren't suddenly going to wander into flex, no matter how many options you give them to find a standard group. They'll just get bored and unsub.

LFR was working fine, but it sounds like they are trying to tweak it because the hardcores didn't like it, not because the people running it didn't like it.

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Rokal
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Reply #680 on: April 30, 2014, 01:49:46 PM

Twice as much loot is an issue. I'm not sure they understand how many people play LFR and that's it. If they make it so LFR is just two entries and you have full gear? Those people aren't suddenly going to wander into flex, no matter how many options you give them to find a standard group. They'll just get bored and unsub.

This is the wall they would have run into regardless, now they just hit it twice as fast. It's possible that without spending so much time in a raid via LFR that they burn out on it, players will be more interested in stepping up to Flex after they finish gearing in LFR, especially with the new grouping tools making it only slightly harder than queuing for LFR. The purpose of LFR has always been advertised as "see the content regardless of your schedule", so doubling the loot drop rate seems in-line with that goal. If it's just about seeing the content, why would you want to make players see it again and again in that format for 2-3 months?

My bigger question is, if they remove the incentive for normal raiders to do LFR and also cut the amount of time players need to run it by 50%, how are they going to avoid having ridiculously long LFR queues after a raid has been unlocked for 1-2 months?
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Reply #681 on: April 30, 2014, 01:53:31 PM

My bigger question is, if they remove the incentive for normal raiders to do LFR and also cut the amount of time players need to run it by 50%, how are they going to avoid having ridiculously long LFR queues after a raid has been unlocked for 1-2 months?

I mentioned earlier; LFR in WoD will follow Flex rules.  You won't need full 25 man compliment, just 10 will do.  Also, if they do what they did in MoP by adding another legendary quest line that has you going into raids to collect quest items, it'll keep alts and such attached to the lower tiers while they try to complete the quest.  Queue times right now are pretty low since the lvl 90 boost went in and everyone's trying to get their cloak before WoD gets here, myself included  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
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Reply #682 on: April 30, 2014, 01:54:14 PM

LFR was working fine, but it sounds like they are trying to tweak it because the hardcores didn't like it, not because the people running it didn't like it.

They should rename the expansion to Warlords Of Fixing What Ain't Broken.

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Reply #683 on: April 30, 2014, 01:56:01 PM

LFR was working fine, but it sounds like they are trying to tweak it because the hardcores didn't like it, not because the people running it didn't like it.

They should rename the expansion to Warlords Of Fixing What Ain't Broken.


WoFWAB

/dubstep


"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
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Reply #684 on: April 30, 2014, 02:13:23 PM

LFR was working fine, but it sounds like they are trying to tweak it because the hardcores didn't like it, not because the people running it didn't like it.

They should rename the expansion to Warlords Of Fixing What Ain't Broken.


You should have done a /dropmic after that.  Well said.
Paelos
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Reply #685 on: April 30, 2014, 02:18:04 PM

This is the wall they would have run into regardless, now they just hit it twice as fast. It's possible that without spending so much time in a raid via LFR that they burn out on it, players will be more interested in stepping up to Flex after they finish gearing in LFR, especially with the new grouping tools making it only slightly harder than queuing for LFR. The purpose of LFR has always been advertised as "see the content regardless of your schedule", so doubling the loot drop rate seems in-line with that goal. If it's just about seeing the content, why would you want to make players see it again and again in that format for 2-3 months?

My bigger question is, if they remove the incentive for normal raiders to do LFR and also cut the amount of time players need to run it by 50%, how are they going to avoid having ridiculously long LFR queues after a raid has been unlocked for 1-2 months?

Here's a bigger question: why are they fucking with it at all?

Who cares if your hardcore raiders feel they have to run LFR? HINT: THEY DON'T HAVE TO. So, instead of just ignoring them and going on with one of the biggest success stories they've had out of the clusterfuck of Catacylsm, they are going to "Fix" it? Why?!?! This is only a problem for people that aren't quitting the game under penalty of death. Instead, they're putting the vast majority of the playerbase up against an unnecessary content wall, and HOPING they move up to the next level.

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Simond
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Reply #686 on: April 30, 2014, 02:40:56 PM

We interrupt your regularly scheduled hyperbole with some breaking news: The first tier of MoP LFR didn't have armour sets either.
Now back to your original programme.

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Reply #687 on: April 30, 2014, 03:24:29 PM

Here's a bigger question: why are they fucking with it at all?

To encourage LFR raiders to try Flex (now called Normal) which retains the hooks that have historically encouraged players to stay subscribed and is arguably a much more fun version of the content. It's that simple.
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Reply #688 on: April 30, 2014, 03:41:21 PM

*picks up mic*

Telling the players that they're having fun wrong is the hallmark of such industry greats as SWG and Vanguard.

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Paelos
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Reply #689 on: April 30, 2014, 03:43:29 PM

Here's a bigger question: why are they fucking with it at all?

To encourage LFR raiders to try Flex (now called Normal) which retains the hooks that have historically encouraged players to stay subscribed and is arguably a much more fun version of the content. It's that simple.

I don't believe that's the true reason. That's the way they would sell it, but I don't think it has that result. Here's why:

So let's look at this two ways. 1 - The reason LFR people don't do regular raids with the same group is because of schedules. They don't want to schedule their life to a game. No amount of cajoling or tools or anything is going to solve this issue when it comes to playing with the same group.

2 - If you believe the tools make it possible to play flex with a random group on your schedule, then you're just creating LFR 2.0. There's no more stickiness in that than there is in LFR, and it might be even more frustrating because it's tougher AND you are with randoms that can't hack it.

I think this is another version of their typical butthurt. This is the "we want things to be meaningful" garbage they've been pushing at every chance. The devs get beaten down on it time and again, but if given an inch they will try to ratchet up difficulties, divide the cool kids stuff away from the regular players, and try to restore the hardcore game for the players they want. Not the players they have.

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Mithas
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Reply #690 on: April 30, 2014, 03:50:52 PM

Quote
I think this is another version of their typical butthurt. This is the "we want things to be meaningful" garbage they've been pushing at every chance. The devs get beaten down on it time and again, but if given an inch they will try to ratchet up difficulties, divide the cool kids stuff away from the regular players, and try to restore the hardcore game for the players they want. Not the players they have.

They've done this before, only to end in sub loss. You'd think they'd learn that making it more difficult for the casual player just ends with them undoing the stupid later anyway.
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Reply #691 on: April 30, 2014, 03:55:22 PM

At this point I think they're incapable of learning from their mistakes.

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Reply #692 on: April 30, 2014, 03:59:48 PM

They don't want to realize that their game is essentially a step above the casualness and complexity of Candy Crush and Farmville.
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Reply #693 on: April 30, 2014, 04:02:02 PM

The players they want don't exist in the numbers they once did. The players they want are me when I was in my mid 20s with no other obligations.
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Reply #694 on: April 30, 2014, 04:07:44 PM

I don't believe that's the true reason. That's the way they would sell it, but I don't think it has that result. Here's why:

So let's look at this two ways. 1 - The reason LFR people don't do regular raids with the same group is because of schedules. They don't want to schedule their life to a game. No amount of cajoling or tools or anything is going to solve this issue when it comes to playing with the same group.

It doesn't only serve players who are unable to schedule raids. It also functions as the introduction to raiding for most players at this point, as it has lower gear/skill/time/scheduling requirements. Either camp may be able to find a flex group via the Group tool to do a better and more true-to-form version of the raid. Especially with variable raid sizes, groups are going to be much more open to letting players with restrictive schedules into their groups. They can just run -1 (or -20) people if needed.

2 - If you believe the tools make it possible to play flex with a random group on your schedule, then you're just creating LFR 2.0. There's no more stickiness in that than there is in LFR, and it might be even more frustrating because it's tougher AND you are with randoms that can't hack it.

It's not just LFR 2.0 because, like all the old PuG groups in Vanilla and TBC, you have a chance to meet people via these groups and become a permanent part of their raid team. Since only Mythic content is locked to servers at this point, there is no barrier to playing with a raid group on another server. This is what Blizzard wants: more players participating in a stickier version of the content, making social connections via the groups required for that content, and staying subbed indefinitely instead of for the 2 months that it takes you to get to 100 and see all the raid content via LFR.
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Reply #695 on: April 30, 2014, 04:10:21 PM

So you meet a group, become friends, raid together, get better, challenge increasing difficulty; thenl you hit the server-transfer-paywall since the last difficulty can't be done cross-server because reasons. swamp poop

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Reply #696 on: April 30, 2014, 04:13:25 PM

That's assuming most of the playerbase gives a shit about Heroic (now called Mythic) raids. Armory completion stats don't support that theory.
Paelos
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Reply #697 on: April 30, 2014, 04:45:30 PM

I did play the game with my friends, and had fun, mostly because the content required a little bit or effort and wasn't like sleep walking. As a matter of fact, I'd argue that if Cata taught me anything, it's that most players don't want to play with their friends. Most people seem to use the LFD tool to form groups, which means they are running dungeons for upgrades/points first, not for fun.

This was a conversation we had before about people wanting to group up and play with friends. Now you're telling me that Blizzard wants to make those people suddenly raid with friends. We already learned this lesson.

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Reply #698 on: April 30, 2014, 06:03:43 PM

What are they taking away from LFR, Paelos?

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Paelos
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Reply #699 on: April 30, 2014, 09:41:41 PM

They are taking away set bonuses, trinkets, and basically making loot a completely separate item from other parts of raiding. They didn't do that with LFR before. It was lower levels of the same gear, but it still had the same bonuses and looks as the real deal.

Then by doubling the loot, they are effectively making it the new welfare epics. It's putting in a divide because they don't want LFR people to feel like they've done what real raiders are doing. It just reeks of epeen from the hardcore, especially with the art decisions.

Basically if they are going to do that with LFR in the hopes that people gear up for real raids, they might as well remove LFR and cut out the middle man. I think they honestly want to do that. I've wanted to do that in the past. If it's not equal, and you want flex raiding to be the thing, make it the thing. This approach just seems dickish and half-assed. The whole decision making process seems like they are trying to marginalize LFR because the hardcores didn't like doing it, and didn't like seeing people in easy purples like theirs.

If they want to do the storyline thing, just do it via scenarios.

CPA, Sports blogger, Mount and Blade enthusiast
Braves by the Numbers, my sports blog
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