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Author Topic: Bitch Thread for Warlords of Draenor  (Read 218770 times)
apocrypha
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Planes? Shit, I'm terrified to get in my car now!


Reply #630 on: April 28, 2014, 06:15:07 AM

I dunno what everyone else was doing but I raided OS for the same reason I've done pretty much every other raid ever... loot.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
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Reply #631 on: April 28, 2014, 08:51:44 AM

Apparently Obsidian Sanctum was Deathwing's kids. We had to stop them because other Dragons didn't want them to live. But not enough to where other dragons would actually fight them.

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Tannhauser
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Reply #632 on: April 28, 2014, 08:54:05 AM

Getting REAL tired of everyone banging on the greatest, most cohesive, internally consistent lore in the history of gaming.  I...sorry I just can't keep trolling, my eyes have rolled out of my head.
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Reply #633 on: April 28, 2014, 09:03:33 AM

Quick, TO THE TIME MACHINES!

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Maven
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Reply #634 on: April 28, 2014, 09:47:14 AM

They've relied on the time travelling shtick when they can't advance the lore in a meaningful direction -- as if fleshing out further an already fleshed out background is interesting.

You know, like a comic book movie mining the comics.
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Reply #635 on: April 28, 2014, 12:17:00 PM

There's a lot of big side stories left however which is the puzzling part. Emerald Dream, Argus (Burning Legion), The Titans, The other islands around the Maelstrom, The Abyssal Plane, etc

And you can always conjure another baddie from the lore without confusing the lore further with time travel and alternate timelines.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Malakili
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Reply #636 on: April 28, 2014, 12:25:51 PM

As someone who mained Druid from day 1 until the day I quit, I think I would actually come back for an Emerald Dream expansion.
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Reply #637 on: April 28, 2014, 12:32:39 PM

  Pandaria I don't recall reading a single text.  Not one. I don't even know the back story for the big animal things it the locked valley. I had to hunt for too much and the books weren't going to get bought.  I don't have time for that shit on top of the time demands of the game.

So I became disengaged with the game when the second raid came out and I had no idea what was going on.  I stopped logging in.  Then when the alliance and horde began in axing I said fuck this and it was a pretty quick unsub after that. 

When players who care beyond the latest phat pests don't know what's going on they're not going to remain. Your $9 addition revenue cost you recurring $250 and in game store purchases.   Whoops.
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Reply #638 on: April 28, 2014, 01:01:08 PM

Things in MoP you needed to read a book to figure out, a list:

This is true. They actually did a pretty good job telling the big story moments through scenarios (destruction of Theramore, Vol'Jin deciding to revolt, Garrosh obtaining the Sha power) or questing.

Whether those scenarios were much fun is another question. The story ones definitely felt less fun to play-through/repeat than the less scripted ones but at least they were in the game for once.
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Reply #639 on: April 29, 2014, 09:01:16 AM

So it looks like Blizz really doesn't want to implement flight in newoldDraenor at all.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12666436539?page=5#82

Quote
This probably should have been kept to the original thread, but caution to thee, wind, I say! (I say that.)

So everyone has seen various posts and comments around the World Wide Web about flying not being allowed in Draenor, why, and what that means. It’d probably be helpful to try to sum up some of those things, and potentially help build a foundation for anyone’s discussions on the topic going forward. If everyone has the same info then it just helps conversations glide along, as you can expect everyone else knows what you know! Knowledge Parity! (Knarity?)

Anyway, it’s important to first dissuade concerns that we’re looking to slow down the game (I’ve recently posted about this in another thread, but it bears repeating). We’re going to be making sure flight paths and other forms of travel are quick and efficient, with a goal of getting you to the places you want to go. The flight paths in Draenor are not going to be loop-de-loop sightseeing tours, and we’re going to be looking to our beta testers to let us know if any are less than tip-top.

Our goal is not to make travel time consuming or painful, and with players on ground mounts we know we'll have to do more to try to ensure people can get to where they want to go quickly… BUT being able to lift off and fly over content compromises many of our goals in how the game world is approached, how it's played, how it's consumed, and how the content is designed to account for those factors.

As an example, let us consider a quest to assassinate an enemy leader. From the ground you approach a fort with guards at the gate. You charge and are able to dispatch them and sneak in a side hallway. You methodically take out packs of roaming sentries, and some of them shout at you as they run toward you. You notice they’re in the middle of practicing dark and forbidden magics, and you take a moment to disrupt their ritual. Dashing into the main courtyard you spot your target, sneaking and fighting your way to him--and with a forceful slash--the fort’s captain is vanquished, and as guards are alerted you fight your way out, glorious and triumphant in your success.

Alternatively, from a flying mount, you fly over the gate, see some guy whose name is highlighted, land on top of him, kill him, and then fly away.

Being efficient is great, being clever is great, and using your cleverness to be efficient is great, but how many of us have done the Tillers dailies up on the cliffside where the Hozen are, and waited for packs to pass by before setting down right where you’re supposed to, use whatever thingamabob you’re supposed to, and then lift off ASAP hoping-hoping-hoping nothing aggros? How many of us have become furious when we actually have to fight something!? Is that clever gameplay? Is that being good at playing the game, or is it using a mechanic to avoid having to play it? Is that what the game should be, and what our expectations should be as gamers playing it?

I hope everyone can agree, regardless of personal opinion toward flight vs. non-flight, that flying fundamentally alters how content is approached in a world where the gameplay exists wholly on the ground.

In Draenor we’re designing max-level content, portions of zones or zones in their entirety that will be dedicated to max-level gameplay—and not just the top of a cliffside, or some dailies in the Vale. There’s a harsh change in how the game plays between leveling, and when you hit max level. Hitting 100 and instantly switching everything you do to raiding or Arenas is pretty abrupt, and we want to try to keep that questing experience available at max level with something more robust than daily quests. We don’t think having all of that content inside buildings, or constantly challenged by sky cannons, or with magical no-flying smoke, or within some kind of dismount bubble is the most straightforward or best solution to the ultimate issue in that World of Warcraft is not a flight sim, and that's just not what the content of the game is about. Even at level 100 there will be no small portions of the game world intended to provide relevant content even to max-level players. These zones may even unlock over the course of the expansion, or the content in them will progress in story and scope throughout content patches. Content has to be designed with the expectation that there either is or is not flight, and approaching ground-level content from the ground offers more compelling gameplay. Raids, dungeons, and PvP continue to disallow flying for this same reason.

It's also important to think about not just what the content is, but how it's experienced. Not everyone that plays the game cares how quests and outdoor content are experienced, of course. Some may find it unnecessary; they don't feel it adds anything to their experience. Others play through it fairly quickly, enjoy it, but don’t particularly want to put much thought into why. Some may begrudgingly trudge through the content just so they can get to the part of the game they do want to play, and any other number of situations and preferences.

I’m sure some of you see the fortress example with the flying mount and see nothing wrong, if that’s how someone wants to play the game they should be allowed to. But a game is largely defined by its limitations, and the rules within which you must find or create a solution. We’re not trying to create a slow and laborious game (hopefully people actually enjoy the content!), or expect people will be yelling “YIIIPPPEEEEE!” while fighting a mob that aggroed when they tried to pick an herb, but there’s a big difference between a slow and laborious game and the expectation of instant gratification—not to mention the somewhat nebulous intention of creating and maintaining an engaging and immersive game world. World of Warcraft is a persistent online roleplaying game, and as much as we let players choose how they improve their characters within the world; leveling through dungeons, or PvP, or questing; choosing to do Arenas, or raids, or both; we’re still always wanting to create a holistic experience that supports all of these things. That doesn’t mean we think it’s a good idea to force people to read all their quest text, or stare at and appreciate the pretty new models, or anything like that, but it’s not unreasonable to see that combat and content exist on the ground, understand that, embrace that, and make decisions to support it.

In summary: It’s important to us that we integrate max-level questing into the expansion more thoroughly than designated daily locations on mountain tops, or only have the option of releasing new max level content in magically appearing islands where flight has different rules because reasons. We also know that being able to approach content that’s on the ground from up in the air compromises much of what creates the game world, how it's played, and how it's consumed. The game experience is fundamentally altered when you can lift off and set down wherever you want. And lastly, that we’re not intending to slow anyone down, and we’re going to make sure that players can get where they want to go efficiently through more direct flight points, and potentially alternate travel methods.

None of this is new philosophy; it's something we've maintained since Burning Crusade when flight was introduced, but it has evolved over the years, and I expect it to continue to be—like everything we do—an iterative process. And hopefully this has been at least marginally informative.
It's weird hearing the "We don't want to slow people down! We're going to make flight points and other travel faster!" and "Well we don't want you just flying up to a quest mob and killing it." in this weird infinite loop of contradiction.

Just say it: You want to slow content consumption down. Period.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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Reply #640 on: April 29, 2014, 09:08:29 AM

They are going to get blowtorched over that decision if they follow through with no flying.

Considering they've been selling flying ponies for cash, they are completely fucking those paying customers over. I don't think that's a group you want to mess with.

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Mithas
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Reply #641 on: April 29, 2014, 09:10:23 AM

But they are making ever mount usable on the ground!
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Reply #642 on: April 29, 2014, 09:18:07 AM

But they are making ever mount usable on the ground!

That + not everything your character needs to do will be found in Draenor will make it work for Bliz.  AH and stuff will still be in the original capital cities. 

The no flying thing doesn't concern me.  Played this game for years in vanilla without it, and the times before capping out in the expansions (save Cata) just fine.  As long as they're not complete dicks when it comes to mining nodes, I'm fine with no flight.  If anything, mat prices may go up as a result of more time/work being put into gathering, and archeology is going to be a bitch.

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Reply #643 on: April 29, 2014, 09:19:39 AM

Isn't the new expansion's collectors edition mount a fucking flying mount?

I like this bit in particular:
Quote
As an example, let us consider a quest to assassinate an enemy leader. From the ground you approach a fort with guards at the gate. You charge and are able to dispatch them and sneak in a side hallway. You methodically take out packs of roaming sentries, and some of them shout at you as they run toward you. You notice they’re in the middle of practicing dark and forbidden magics, and you take a moment to disrupt their ritual. Dashing into the main courtyard you spot your target, sneaking and fighting your way to him--and with a forceful slash--the fort’s captain is vanquished, and as guards are alerted you fight your way out, glorious and triumphant in your success.

You know, except your design for 8 years has been to condition players with a reward cycle that deems this sort of content as a big boring waste of time. And if this is just some leveling quest flip a coin on if anyone really fucking bothers with it since it'll reward a shitty trash item you'll throw away in an hour at best. You can't put the genie back in the bottle on people not expecting to have to slog through area trash to get to other area trash they want to kill; it's over. You've done it.

When you did it in Vanilla with the Scarlet Crusader cities in Plaguelands the result was literally nobody but chinese gold bots in the area outside of a tiny minority of people trying to farm up the Crusader enchant drop or doing that one questline with Fordring that ended with a series of pretty nice blue rewards (tanks in particular got a nice chestpiece from this, remember?).

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
Lantyssa
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Reply #644 on: April 29, 2014, 09:58:43 AM

I love his example, but this isn't Deus Ex where you have multiple approaches to taking out a target.  It's pretty much bee-line for the guy.  Maybe step five feet over to avoid aggro or pause for a few seconds to let a patrol go by.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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Reply #645 on: April 29, 2014, 10:07:05 AM

Or be a stealth class and do the same fucking thing. 

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Reply #646 on: April 29, 2014, 10:07:40 AM

 Mob Mob Mob Mob

What the fuck, Blizzard. You had a good thing going. Ground your players until they hit the level cap, then design some content areas that don't allow flying, some that require it, and let the players do whatever they want. More choices, not less. You've been doing it since BC, why fix what wasn't broken?

Well at least they came clean about it.

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Reply #647 on: April 29, 2014, 10:09:21 AM

I think it's more of a "Art assets are hard" thing. Their content/art pipeline must be fucked six ways to sunday because it comes off to me as a way to both slow down content consumption but also as a way to speed up asset creation since they don't need to model the whole thing anymore. Yay, welcome back facades!

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Reply #648 on: April 29, 2014, 10:14:11 AM

Okay this response to Bashiok is fucking great:

Quote
did u really just speak against instant gratification in the same game you sell instant level 90s in?


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Reply #649 on: April 29, 2014, 10:19:10 AM

Isn't the new expansion's collectors edition mount a fucking flying mount?

Yes, the collectors edition supposedly has a flying mount. Here's the text from EB Games: "Dread Raven Mount: Swoop down from the dark of night on the black-winged Dread Raven, a mortal progeny of Anzu"

So basically all he's saying is completely contrary to the actual collector's edition pet description. Swoop down on your enemies! Except not really, and only outside the new content because we don't support swooping in Totally-Not-A-Copy-of-TBC-2.0

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Malakili
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Reply #650 on: April 29, 2014, 10:25:58 AM

Quote
Being efficient is great, being clever is great, and using your cleverness to be efficient is great, but how many of us have done the Tillers dailies up on the cliffside where the Hozen are, and waited for packs to pass by before setting down right where you’re supposed to, use whatever thingamabob you’re supposed to, and then lift off ASAP hoping-hoping-hoping nothing aggros? How many of us have become furious when we actually have to fight something!

Maybe if people hate actually fighting in your game when combat is one of the main things you do, you have a bigger problem.
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Reply #651 on: April 29, 2014, 10:28:59 AM

I don't think people hate fighting. They hate the fact that dailies are usually a fetch quest, and fighting is an obstacle to the fetching, and getting their reward.

Blizzard moved the bar with dailies being a thing. They moved it even further by uncapping them, and making reputation an even bigger thing.

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Reply #652 on: April 29, 2014, 11:37:19 AM

I think WOW's combat is some of the best in the genre. What I dislike about dailies are the dull and repetitive 'collect y items / kill x completely trivial mobs' parts which highlight just how much of a waste of time it is just doing them. I'm ok with dailies that involve doing dungeons or pvp, and I'd be ok with dailies that actually required paying some attention to finish (e.g. soloing a miniboss that has a somewhat random moveset, with CM/PG-style scaling so it isn't trivialized by gear) so that I actually had some 'fun' doing them.

However, my preferred solution for dailies is the GW2 way: don't have daily quests at all! Instead, have a list of 20 objectives (may vary slightly from day to day) about gathering y items, killing x different kinds of enemies (mobs or players), craft z items, kill any dungeon or raid boss, gather guild xp, etc. Give out the 'daily reward' when the player completes 5 of those objectives, and maybe smaller rewards for each subsequent completion. Then I can get them done while I'm actually having fun in the game doing BGs / dungeons / raids / soloing / etc.

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Reply #653 on: April 29, 2014, 11:45:32 AM

People have always hated trash in WoW, primarily because it is exactly that; trash.  If they had a chance to drop a good item things would be different and nobody'd mind as much. That conversation happened back in 2004 when everyone complained they should be doing Diablo-style loot where bosses have a better chance to drop good items.  They chose not to, which was and still is silly but it's how they're doing things.

However, forcing them to kill it because "OMG GAMEPLAY" at this point is boneheaded and another sign of old men doing things rather than fresh, young talent.  They're concerned their hard work isn't being appreciated. Another step along "The Vision" highway.  The next step is what, insisting a game system is working as intended when it's clearly broken, right?

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Reply #654 on: April 29, 2014, 11:55:56 AM

I like how they won't just say they if they're killing flight or not while saying they're killing it, because they know that if they do there's a bunch of subs and preorders being cancelled.

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Reply #655 on: April 29, 2014, 11:56:39 AM

They should have just added mobs that have anti-aircraft nets that force you down.  Game then because 1) go the land route, 2) go air route and try to avoid being brought down, 3) mix of both.  So Mr I  Heart Flying (read: me!) can still fly most everywhere, but he needs to be careful around high-density areas and places where the anti-aircraft mobs spawn.

World has fucking dragons and no one has developed ways of dealing with flyers?  That's dumb.

I'm sure this has been suggested before by the player base, it's not clear to me why they resist doing this.  Embrace flying.  Give, the different mounts different flight characteristics.  ... you know, add something new to the game.
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Reply #656 on: April 29, 2014, 12:01:49 PM

I know Blizzard could give a shit about world PVP but lol, enjoy leveling on your PVP servers now all you idiots who rolled on PVP servers despite hating PVP because the most progressed raiding guilds like to roll on them. Between no flying and CWZ you'll be spending half your playtime running to your corpse for the first month or two.

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Reply #657 on: April 29, 2014, 12:44:08 PM

Believe me, if there was an option to move to another server entirely (not for $30 or whatever per character), my guild would've jumped ship en masse from Crushridge to (random pve or rp server that has people on it) back in 2005-2006. A mostly-dead server with a massive horde overpopulation... how fun.

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Reply #658 on: April 29, 2014, 02:55:11 PM

They should have just added mobs that have anti-aircraft nets that force you down.  Game then because 1) go the land route, 2) go air route and try to avoid being brought down, 3) mix of both.  So Mr I  Heart Flying (read: me!) can still fly most everywhere, but he needs to be careful around high-density areas and places where the anti-aircraft mobs spawn.

World has fucking dragons and no one has developed ways of dealing with flyers?  That's dumb.

They've tried this multiple times in the past and it's always been terrible. Getting knocked off your mount and falling to your death is way more obnoxious than just having to use a ground mount. You're guaranteed to die against the "no fly" defenses at least once every time they're introduced.
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Reply #659 on: April 29, 2014, 09:13:50 PM

Well I was actually thinking that you floated to the ground with limited control, but I guess knocking you off your mount so that you fall to your death is another way to go.
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Reply #660 on: April 30, 2014, 02:44:45 AM

However, my preferred solution for dailies is the GW2 way: don't have daily quests at all! Instead, have a list of 20 objectives (may vary slightly from day to day) about gathering y items, killing x different kinds of enemies (mobs or players), craft z items, kill any dungeon or raid boss, gather guild xp, etc. Give out the 'daily reward' when the player completes 5 of those objectives, and maybe smaller rewards for each subsequent completion. Then I can get them done while I'm actually having fun in the game doing BGs / dungeons / raids / soloing / etc.

This. There were times I'd run a dungeon or two in GW2 or even just be doing exploration and I would complete all my dailies without even knowing what they were. In the meantime I was enjoying myself playing the game. I quit WoW because to me, the game was about doing dailies and not having fun.

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Reply #661 on: April 30, 2014, 08:44:59 AM

I like how every expac since WOTLK makes the game worse and worse.  It's like every expac gets a new dev team who then throw the baby out with the bathwater for their new ideas.  Should some of the game mechanics have been updated?  Yes.  But their vision past the Lich King seems haphazard and unfocused.
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Reply #662 on: April 30, 2014, 08:47:36 AM

I like how every expac since WOTLK makes the game worse and worse.  It's like every expac gets a new dev team who then throw the baby out with the bathwater for their new ideas.  Should some of the game mechanics have been updated?  Yes.  But their vision past the Lich King seems haphazard and unfocused.


After wotlk the only logical place to progress the story would be towards the titans and sargeras except that would mean the end of the game so they are gonna milk it as long as they can by having you go on bullshit side quests TO THE PAST!

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Reply #663 on: April 30, 2014, 09:09:28 AM

That justifies the shitty lore, but not the rest of the dumb gameplay changes.

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Reply #664 on: April 30, 2014, 09:24:59 AM

Deathwing wasn't a terrible badgut to conjure up and a good excuse to turn the world on its head; it's just that outside of the 1-60 experience it wasn't handled well.

"The world is populated in the main by people who should not exist." - George Bernard Shaw
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