Vaping: 2013-2014 Edition

[schild]

It's a matter of timing and similarities. The same sort of bill showed up in Virginia and Texas in about 2 weeks time. Texas' was put up just last week or so. Almost identical. The banning of online sales is a notable fingerprint of Big Tobacco. Stifling distribution chains is not something the government would put at the forefront of their own ideas. It's purely a commercial concept. (Also, I'm pretty sure Philip Morris came out in support of it in VA and TX, but I'm not going digging for that).

[Signe]

You don't cadmium or formaldehyde in your food, e-juice, moisturisers, pet food. baby formula, cosmetics, jock itch spray, etc.?  Don't buy anything you put in, on or near your body from China or from a company that gets their ingredients from China.

[schild]

I'm pretty pissed the the NEJM posted such a not in-depth study of ecigs today. A woefully worthless study that is only going to hurt. Does Big Tobacco have a hand in NEJM? I'd like to think not.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

[Nebu]

I'm pretty pissed the the NEJM posted such a not in-depth study of ecigs today. A woefully worthless study that is only going to hurt. Does Big Tobacco have a hand in NEJM? I'd like to think not.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

What's your concern with the science?  Do you believe that a more thorough study will show something different with regard to higher voltage vaporization of samples containing glycols? 

Journals have been publishing stuff like this for as long as there have been journals.  They're usually put out as notes.

[MahrinSkel]

The guy behind it is a chemist and civil engineer that built his career on a theory that "freebase nicotine" (nicotine that was not bound up in more complex molecules) was uniquely addictive, and that tobacco companies were adding it to cigarettes to make them more addictive. His results showing unbound nicotine in cigarettes turned out to be completely unreproducible (even he couldn't do it when he ran the experiment again with observers), he then proceeded to prove that the flavorings used in some tobacco products were the same as those used in candy (no duh), and this proved that tobacco companies were targeting children (adults apparently don't like things that taste good).

Ecigs are like a perfect storm of everything he's been bullshitting about all of his life, since all of their nicotine is "freebase" and they often use candy flavoring products.  So he devised an experiment that proves that if you vaporize organic liquids at several thousand degrees, you can produce formaldehyde (again, *duh*).  Of course, you'll also thrash your throat with a single puff of liquid that "scorched", which is why nobody actually does that.

In other news, drinking lye is a bad idea.

There is a need for some serious scientific investigation of the potential hazards of vaping.  This is not it.

--Dave

[schild]

I'm pretty pissed the the NEJM posted such a not in-depth study of ecigs today. A woefully worthless study that is only going to hurt. Does Big Tobacco have a hand in NEJM? I'd like to think not.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1413069

What's your concern with the science?

That it's not fucking science and NEJM should have higher goddamn standards. That's my concern.

[Nebu]

There is a need for some serious scientific investigation of the potential hazards of vaping.  This is not it.

--Dave

Of course it's not.  I read 100's of notes like this every week and know that it's nothing more than someone staking territory.  It's business as usual for this journal.  All of us that read it know this.  

That it's not fucking science and NEJM should have higher goddamn standards. That's my concern.

You're knee-jerking a bit hard, even for you.  A guy submits paragraph of stuff we already know and NEJM prints it.  Business as usual.  It's a clinical rag that clinicians read.  You don't go to NEJM for hard science.  That's what the specialty area journals are for.

[schild]

That it's not fucking science and NEJM should have higher goddamn standards. That's my concern.

You're knee-jerking a bit hard, even for you.  A guy submits paragraph of stuff we already know and NEJM prints it.  Business as usual.  It's a clinical rag that clinicians read.  You don't go to NEJM for hard science. 

My knee-jerking is in response to the fact a shitload of news outlets are reporting it as truth, fucking up public perception. My knee-jerk reaction isn't 1/10000000th of what the governments will be to such bullshit.

[Nebu]

My knee-jerking is in response to the fact a shitload of news outlets are reporting it as truth, fucking up public perception. My knee-jerk reaction isn't 1/10000000th of what the governments will be to such bullshit.

I'm going to make you an honorary scientist.  You finally showed passion for something we've all been dealing with for our entire careers.   

[MahrinSkel]

Yeah, NEJM is seen as *the* scientific journal of record for medicine by most of the media, so his high-school level experiment proving that well-established chemistry still works will be taken as an authoritative proof that ecigs cause cancer by many outlets.  Of course, you can also produce formaldehyde by charbroiling a steak, or even by overcooking eggs.  What the media is taking away from this meaningless "note" is "ecigs are 15 times more carcinogenic than cigarettes!"

--Dave

[schild]

Can scientists be sued for public outrage, distortion of facts, and conspiracy? If so, this guy just became vaping's public enemy #1.

[Nebu]

Can scientists be sued for public outrage, distortion of facts, and conspiracy? If so, this guy just became vaping's public enemy #1.

This is nothing compared to what tobacco is going to launch to save its hide.  Perception > facts, remember?

[Signe]

I have my new kit and some extra stuffs and I want to taste all, or maybe just some, of your flavours, Schild.  Tell me the names.  If you've mentioned them before, sorry, I must have forgot.  This thread has become too long (more than a page) to search for something that may or may not be there.  So just tell me.

[schild]

Urgh if I had freely avilable shit Id just send it to you. If you're patient ill get a package out to you.  If you want to blow a pile of cash:

http://www.giantvapes.com/teleos/

Id recommend waiting. Juice adds up quick. I wish there were more people that vape in Austin from f13. I just put 3 liters of juice I'll never vape into a box but it probably won't ship well.

[Signe]

I can wait a bit.  If I get low (I have a ton I'm not crazy about which doesn't count) I might pick up something.  Nightfall and Eight Bells sound especially nice.  I like that you have some with low amounts of nic.  I've been using El Toro quite a bit lately.  It's pretty yummy.  My sister recently gave me an awesome oil made from black poplar.  It smells heavenly.  Every time I use it on my hands, I want to smoke it. 

I'm so glad you decided to do this for a business.  Let's take down the FDA!  Viva la thingy!

[penfold]

So, my wifes nephew has taken up vaping. I know he's smoked before, but didn't have a habit so essentially he took up vaping. I'm not sure if its good or bad. Its unlikely he would have been able to afford cigarettes being unemployed/unemployable. UK cigarettes are now £9.50/$14.60 for 20 btw.

I never tried vaping, despite 20 years of smoking. I went from 10 a day>can't smoke due to 2 month long chest/throat infection and cough>X-Rays>worry>all clear>not smoked for 3 years now.

The  Shityourpants Method. Not one mentioned to often either. Better than gum, patches, hypnotism, books and vapes ;)

Still smells good when i walk past a smoker though, not always, but sometimes I'm like hmm that's nice. Although smokers themselves stink.

[MahrinSkel]

My sister recently gave me an awesome oil made from black poplar.  It smells heavenly.  Every time I use it on my hands, I want to smoke it. 

You have to be careful with oils. They often are not very soluble in PG/VG, and even when they are they tend to get left behind and gum up the coils. Not to mention that just because it smells good, doesn't mean it will taste good (ever eat rose petals?).

I use some oils for "grace notes" in my mixes, but generally as single drops into 30mL of solution.

--Dave

[schild]

Still smells good when i walk past a smoker though, not always, but sometimes I'm like hmm that's nice. Although smokers themselves stink.

Most people who vape can't tolerate the smell of cigarettes after vaping for a while. Most people who quit cold turkey have cravings. It's strange.

(Signe & Mahrin) As to oils: no, don't. I wouldn't even put one drop in 30ml.

[MahrinSkel]

Really the only 'oil' I use is clove oil, and other than the fact that I have to toss the core after, it seems to work fine. I use some other really strong flavors as single drops, like amaretto and wintergreen, and have the same issue: If I don't change the coils, they stick around halfway through the next batch.

Finally settled on my next set of gear, went with a Vamo V6, which is just a slightly updated V5 (20W max, better display and firmware) and a ZNA 50 (kind of a minimalist fistpack, single 18500 or 18650 with the electronics next to the tube instead of above it). Thought about an E-LVT (silicone outer case that would tolerate drops better) and a Kamry 200 (200W beast with three 18650's), but they're both pretty big. I went with the V6 because it's a known quantity and the ZNA because it's a big enough power jump for my needs in a more compact form factor (93mm to the Vamo's 140mm).

There's some really great rigs with polymer batteries available, including a few that are 2 inches square and less than 1 thick, but the new restrictions on shipping batteries mean waiting a month or more for them to arrive by boat if you order direct.

--Dave

[schild]

How much money are you spending on all that Chinese shit?

[MahrinSkel]

$26 for the V6, $70 for the ZNA. I'm getting stainless steel models, so it costs a bit more than if they were aluminum, but I like the durability. Last round, the aluminum SID got bent up in a couple of months while the SS V5 is still going. E-LTV would have been about $45, the Kamry 200 about $90.

Easy for you to sneer at my knockoffs, how much of your collection was free?

--Dave

Edit: I don't feel too jealous, though. Most of the vapers I see at my school are using those cheap plastic "vape pens", or Ego variants. Which they paid as much or more for as my V6. They see me using the Hammer with a kick, or the e-pipe, and they literally can't figure out what the hell it is. Only seen one that had even a VW version of an Aspire Ego clone, it cost him $50.

I'm also moving ahead with my plans to stockpile juice, I now have everything I need for the next three years of mixed, and a few 250ml jars of 10% in PG base (most stable form for long-term storage). At about one year per liter of 2.5%, I figure I need around 5 liters of concentrate in the freezer. I could get it all at once for about $600, however I am a poor but honest college freshman, I just add another jar when I have $30 to spare.

[schild]

wut

I was asking how much you were spending on Chinese crap because there's better ways to spend money on Chinese crap than VAMOs and Kamrys. But ok, nevermind. No advice for you.

[schild]

Also, Aspire doesn't really clone. All those ego shits come from the same place. I can get ego batteries that say Teleos made for pennies on the dollar and sell them as Teleos Egos. Ain't a clone.

[schild]

ANYWAY, for everyone else:

This is the best battery/mod on the market: https://www.eleafus.com/istick-50w.html

Period. If you're jonesing for some stylish clone shit go over to Fasttech and get the G-Sensor thing from SXK: https://www.fasttech.com/products/3032/10011515/2108900

They're kinda janky, but they do the job and look decent if you don't get a shit one.

Atty wise:
Horizon Arctic
Aspire Atlantis
eLeaf Melo

If you want a battery and atty all in one: Joyetech eGo One 2200/XL or whatever the bigger one is called (it's still tiny).

Those are your only options. Every other item on the market is trash.

[schild]

And if you don't mind spending a little bit of coin on something awesome, my recommendations are as follows:

Garage of Creation Styx: http://shop.garageofcreation.com/product/106/styx-sx350-mod

The guy who makes this is so rad, I put my booth at Vape Summit Las Vegas next to his. He'll have more in stock in a few weeks/a month. Also, the Euro is in the goddamn toilet. When this thing came out it was well over $350. He's one of the few modders left that doesn't price in USD, bless his drunk as fuck heart.

He also makes one of the best drippers on the market: http://shop.garageofcreation.com/product/74/h-dripper

The actual best dripper on the market right now though, is the Team Overdose OD dripper: http://www.vapingcraze.com/Team-OverDose-Dripper-p/team-overdose-dripper.htm

Followed by this: http://www.intaste.de/en/origen-mods-by-norbert-origen-dripper-v3-rda.html

Best Genesis style (but use cotton) is the Origenny V2: http://www.intaste.de/en/origen-genesis-v2.html

Best Kayfun style atty is the Kanger Subtank Mini (specifically that one) - using the rebuildable head.

Best overall atties are all that new gen chinese shit in the previous post.

Edit: Also, this is my favorite person in vaping: https://instagram.com/blakevapes/

[MahrinSkel]

I seriously considered the 4400mAH iStick (it was one of the "awesome polymer" models I was talking about) but decided against it because it's a fixed battery I'd have to wait over a month for (although I may still get the mini 1050mAH model for stealth situations) and I didn't want to pay twice as much for a US seller. And my final choice was between the Zero and the ZNA, I went for the ZNA because it had a thinner form factor than the usual fistpack (and some have reported issues with the Zeroes from FastTech).

I mentioned the Kamry mostly because it (and the other 100W+ models) is just so damned insane. I've built my RBA's for quad coil and tried high-power cloud chasing, even setting aside the issue of refilling ten times a day, I just don't need that much vapor. Especially not in a college environment where they technically have a no-vaping policy. 10-12 watts off a dual 4ohm coil works just fine for me, and with 25 mg strength I only need to hit it every 15 minutes or so. My batteries last two days and a 3ml tank most of one, and I just don't enjoy constantly fiddling with the gear.

--Dave

Edit: And that Aspire VW actually looked more like my old E-Power 18650, but it had a fixed battery like an Ego, so it was essentially just an oversized variable Ego.

Edit2: This is the E-LVT I am still considering, big for a single 18650, but the silicone outer shell makes it the most "droppable" mod available right now.

https://www.fasttech.com/products/3032/10007702/1905603-e-lvt-2-0-7-30w-variable-wattage-apv-mod

[Furiously]

I've been using rebuildables for about a year now. I got a kanger subtank a month or two ago. I have not used my taifun or Kayfun since.

[schild]

New generation Chinese shit crushed the Kayfun and Taifun market.

Arctic Horizon is probably the best of the bunch w/ the Atlantis a VERY close second. Subtank is the bottom of the list for me, but the rebuildable head on the Mini is the best of its kind.

Right now I'm a little pissed at the market because the public is simply not educated on how to drive all this new shit and there's too much of a rift in the battery segment. I wish people would dump all the old shit in favor of the eGo One at the lowest end and only go up from there. Everyone would be better off for it.

[MahrinSkel]

Get away from the west coast and Texas, it's worse that that. People in the Midwest are barely catching up to the Ego style, most of them think they're ahead of the curve if they're using the disposable plastic vape-pens (that they're paying $20 for). Straight up Ego clones for $40, if the shop even has anything better it's marked up 500%+ and inside a sealed case. Vamo V5 starter kits for $150, iClear 30's for $18, no-name juice at $15 for 30ml.

If somebody manages to establish a brand for strip mall vape shops that sell decent stuff at only a 300% markup, they could make money hand over fist with franchising.

--Dave

[Furiously]

Anyone have any recommendations/opinions on temperature control and nickel wire?   

[GargaMoelle]

Ive been running a kanger sub tank mini with occ nickel coils on a m80 pro for about 3 weeks now and wouldnt trade the tank for anything temp mode on the m80 is a bit flawed but still works fine.Never a dry hit love it.

[schild]

Anyone have any recommendations/opinions on temperature control and nickel wire?   

Yea, don't do it. Nickel wire makes everything taste like cigarette butts. Shit sucks.

[Pennilenko]

I have an Aspire Atlantis, and an Atlantis Sub Ohm Battery. I have not ever had a better vaping experience than this combination. That includes mods and all kinds of custom drip set ups.

[schild]

That setup is arguably perfect for almost everyone. I personally prefer the vape an sx350 driven mod gives the Atlantis, but it's marginal (SX350s have better battery management and power delivery than whatever the shit is in a CF Sub Ohm).

I'm enjoying an Origenny on my Wapari right now, but literally right next to it is a Silo Beast (Beyondvape.com's kinda high-end answer to the Atlantis - uses Atlantis coils) on a Styx (SX350 thing).

[Pennilenko]

That setup is arguably perfect for almost everyone. I personally prefer the vape an sx350 driven mod gives the Atlantis, but it's marginal (SX350s have better battery management and power delivery than whatever the shit is in a CF Sub Ohm).

I'm enjoying an Origenny on my Wapari right now, but literally right next to it is a Silo Beast (Beyondvape.com's kinda high-end answer to the Atlantis - uses Atlantis coils) on a Styx (SX350 thing).

I respect your experience. However, I have to answer to my wife when it comes to my budget for vaping, so that's why my opinion is what it is.