Magic: The Combattening - Hearthstone

[Merusk]

He calls Hearthstone more complex, but in his next two statements completely obliterate the idea. "Magic deckbuilding is more complex", and, "I'm a Hearthstone noob."  Why even use that quote in an article unless you're really trying hard to paint a positive picture?  Oh, right, games journalism and that site is covered in Blizzard ads. 

You can't mention losing every 5th or 10th game to mana screw if you don't also mention the average times you lose in Hearthstone because your opponent pulls his, "I Win" card while you've got fuckall.

[Rendakor]

"I lost because my opponent was lucky" seems to piss off bad players less than "I lost because I was unlucky."

[Malakili]

"I lost because my opponent was lucky" seems to piss off bad players less than "I lost because I was unlucky."

People like being able to do things.  Some people just have a total mental block over occasionally not being able to play a card they like in a game like Magic.  Even if playing the card would still lose them the game, they just like having played the card.

[KallDrexx]

Started playing this.  Enjoying it but doubt I'll stay for long. 

While I'm new at this it really feels like the game is 90% about battlefield control.  If you let your opponent get 1-2 more minions on the field before you (on similar turn #s) then you just end up behind unless you are lucky enough to have drawn a card that'll let you clear.  Once you get behind it's pretty difficult to come back around.  That pretty sums up every game I've won or loss, maybe it's different in ranked though.

Arena seems like the real fun of the game, but it's stupid expensive unless you get lucky and win enough games to win back your entry fee (or are fine with waiting every 2-3 days to quest enough gold for it, assuming you don't use that gold for a deck). 

Except for a very few matches, it feels like it's just luck of the draw if I win or not (not even the random effect cards but just luck of the draw), which means I feel very reluctant to spend any money on it cause it's hard to see that spending $10 and getting 7 decks would really help much at all.  The slow gold amount means I feel like I'd need to spend at the $50 tier to really feel like I can put a decent synergetic deck together (and after playing Magic 2014 it's a bit hard to see if you can build really interesting synergetic decks), and even then I have a hard time feeling like it'll help.  And then even if I spend a bunch of money there's not much purpose if the real fun is arena (which won't use those cards anyway), which I'm not convinced yet is worth the money.

It's just seems way too focused on sucking money out of you on a constant basis for not much rewards.

[Rendakor]

Obligatory: have you tried Hex?

[KallDrexx]

On a serious note, no but I'm not sure I'd like it.  From everyone's description it'll be much more of a money sink and I do really think that Blizzard got the game flow right for my purposes.  I like how I can hop on for 15 minutes and even against people who take long to decide I can still get 2-3 games.  From everything I've read about Hex (i.e. it's like Magic) I doubt it's that easy to hop on and play that effectively.  2-3 games in 15 minutes usually means I can get at least one win in.

[Tmon]

On a serious note, no but I'm not sure I'd like it.  From everyone's description it'll be much more of a money sink and I do really think that Blizzard got the game flow right for my purposes.  I like how I can hop on for 15 minutes and even against people who take long to decide I can still get 2-3 games.  From everything I've read about Hex (i.e. it's like Magic) I doubt it's that easy to hop on and play that effectively.  2-3 games in 15 minutes usually means I can get at least one win in.

That is hard to do in hex unless you play the AI, which is kind of pointless as there are no rewards and it is brain dead.  The new 3 match mini-tournaments may come close to that but I haven't tried those yet.  The thing that magic and hex have over hearthstone for me is that I don't just have to sit on my hands while the other player has his turn.  Granted, I may not have cards or actions available to do so every turn but it is always a possibility.

[naum]

Except for a very few matches, it feels like it's just luck of the draw if I win or not (not even the random effect cards but just luck of the draw), which means I feel very reluctant to spend any money on it cause it's hard to see that spending $10 and getting 7 decks would really help much at all.  The slow gold amount means I feel like I'd need to spend at the $50 tier to really feel like I can put a decent synergetic deck together (and after playing Magic 2014 it's a bit hard to see if you can build really interesting synergetic decks), and even then I have a hard time feeling like it'll help.  And then even if I spend a bunch of money there's not much purpose if the real fun is arena (which won't use those cards anyway), which I'm not convinced yet is worth the money.

RNG plays a role, but there is still skill, dependent upon deck type you are playing.

If I was just starting out today in Hearthstone, I wouldn't buy cards but would pay $20 for the Naxx expansion -- without those cards, you are at a disadvantage, lots of good cards, and for many classes, you can put together a competitive deck without rares and legendaries from original set. And as you earn gold, you can spend on packs to fill out collection.

[KallDrexx]

Oh, there are actual cards you can get from the expansion?  From the in game options it looked like it was just random PvE you could do.

[naum]

Oh, there are actual cards you can get from the expansion?  From the in game options it looked like it was just random PvE you could do.

Yes, you "unlock" them by beating the various wings.

And there is, for most classes, a really good class card too, won, once you beat the challenge for a particular class (and in those, you use preconstructed decks to do so).

Some of the Naxx cards are quite good, compared to the basic set -- i.e., Sludge Belcher, Undertaker, Loatheb, Kelthuzad, etc. And others can be quite OP in the right deck (Nerubian Egg, Mad Scientist, Dark Cultist, etc.).

[naum]

Why Hearthstone succeeded online where Magic: The Gathering failed

…you might say Magic: the Gathering is the Microsoft of collectible card games: a relentlessly profitable behemoth who seems to have missed the boat on the latest industry shifts. A company that can't bear the idea of not charging for its core product, hobbled by debts to older form factors and a community of power-users it doesn't want to anger. That leaves a massive opportunity for a new challenger willing to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Enter Hearthstone.

[Teleku]

If Hearthstone had the same interface that MTGO did, it would have done even worst.  MTGO (which actually still makes a decent hunk of cash) 'failed' because of its terribad client, end of story.  That may be the most pointless article ever written.

[schild]

Modo accounts for 30% of magics revenue. It did not fail. It just fucking sucks. So does Hearthstone, but thats just because it's not a good game.

[Johny Cee]

Why Hearthstone succeeded online where Magic: The Gathering failed

…you might say Magic: the Gathering is the Microsoft of collectible card games: a relentlessly profitable behemoth who seems to have missed the boat on the latest industry shifts. A company that can't bear the idea of not charging for its core product, hobbled by debts to older form factors and a community of power-users it doesn't want to anger. That leaves a massive opportunity for a new challenger willing to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Enter Hearthstone.

Ugh.

As Schild said, MODO makes huge money.  It does this in a way that doesn't cannibalize the rest of the brand, and since digital sets are redeemable into paper cards, actually directly supports the paper brand development.  It wasn't intended as a mass appeal online game.  You can't even argue that paper is a dinosaur, as their year over year growth is great and their sales are great.

The most important thing it misses is that MTG isn't the only product line, and not the only CCG.  They do a shitload of demographic targeting, and their products help wean consumers from one line to the next.  Pokemon(until 2002)/Harry Potter/whatever gets kids used to CCG concepts and turns them into MtG players.

The article is essentially taking Wizards to task for not going all in in an attempt to convert directly to all digital when they had no experience as a software developer.  And the great stuff the author finds in HS, that both schild and I have pointed out, like streamlining and simplifying are great for a new product....  but give HS two or three expansions.  The card count will have bloated, mechanics will get more complex to keep interest, card power will creep...  and all those things the author loves about the game now will be gone.


A better article would be shitting on Wizards for the mediocre Duels of the Planeswalkers.  That is the direct analogue to HS, and HS is what Duels should be:  a limited, fun but kind of shallow format that is optimized for digital limitations and quick play.

[Lakov_Sanite]

What kind of huge money are we talking about here? Links plox

[Johny Cee]

What kind of huge money are we talking about here? Links plox

On MtG revenue:  http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/04/05/magic-the-gathering-hasbros-key-to-growth.aspx

This year was flat in MtG growth, but games (especially MtG) are one of Hasbro's big revenue growth areas (182% revenue growth in 5 years).  Schild posted the 34% figure, and I'm sure he got that from somewhere.  Anecdotally, I did some rough calculations on pre-release/release events firing and that was bringing in $40k-50k/hour... though obviously release events are far more popular than regular events and a limited time.

What people miss is that MODO cards are redeemable for paper cards, so its intimately tied into the paper world and a part of the paper market.  Yah, shit is expensive for a digital product...  but it holds value like nothing else in the digital realm.  I sold my draft account for $4,000 directly to a trader.  Could have doubled or tripled that if I took the time to part it out, assuming I didn't get fucked over too much selling and I could get a decent price for tix to dollars.  The fun value of MtG whenever I wanted was worth the price, and when I couldn't play anymore (fiance moved in, disappearing for 3 hours at a stretch to draft wouldn't cut it) I had a pretty good cash out.

Wizards has been amazing at curating their product.

[Johny Cee]

Probably boring, but just to break down some of the MtG (physical) model:

Wizards provides prize support and some organizational support to store-owners/others registered with the company to run tourneys.  For instance, your local store will be registered with Wizards to run official MtG events usually including Release events, Friday Night Magic, and full tourneys (usually on weekends).  Prize support for this is usually things like fancy life counters, foil cards, deck boxes and the like.  Official judges are certified by Wizards (think there is a test), and judges get foil promo cards based on number of events judged.

What that means is that your local store owner has the tools and easy prizes provided to them to run regular events.  Usually the pot is sweetened by the stores with the entry fees with booster packs.  It leads to people regularly showing up at the store to play in local tourneys, and they usually end up spending money on packs and what not while they are there.

I know nothing about bigger events.


Basically, as you can see from revenue growth, Wizards is really pretty good at developing and growing the physical brick and mortar end of their business.  Where I get  is that you see these articles basically saying that Wizards is fucking up by not going all-in trying to switch to the software/digital model while their physical model has been successful and constantly expanding for them.  Wizards isn't a software developer.  Their areas of expertise are game design and the distribution/support of the physical scene.

The current MtG digital angle is two-pronged:  Duels of the Planeswalkers and MODO.  Duels is basically neutered MtG meant to appeal broadly.  Somewhat successful, but the last couple iterations have had mediocre to bad reviews.  MODO is a complementary strategy to physical MtG, in that it seems alot of it is older people who can't make it to stores as much anymore, and pros/wanna bes/serious players who use to constantly practice and get better.

I really have yet to see a convincing argument for why this approach needs to be changed.  There is some amount of people that say they would play a cheaper, more limited and shinier digital product... but is it worth it to risk your entire business model to chase one demographic that already has alot of potential options?

HS is basically an indictment of the medocrity of Duels, and Wizards inability to port Duels to a freemium model game that can be expanded to mobile platforms.  And yes, Wizards did fuck this up, and they could and should have tried harder to get a streamlined app out there.  Shit, they still could.  But in general people are going after MODO for "failing" when it actually, for what they want it to do in both revenues and supporting the physical game, is working perfectly.

[schild]

Hex has basically proven a Magic-inspired (or just Magic) CCG doesn't need to be freemium in any capacity. Blizzard does what Blizzard does and made a game for mouthbreathers. I love Diablo, but it's basically a screensaver for my brain. When I want to play a game less thought-intensive than Ascension when I'm on the toilet, I play Hearthstone.

[Hawkbit]

This just launched on phones.

Hard to pass this up for a time-waster on the bus ride to work.

[Tannhauser]

Blackrock Mtn has two wings open and more on the way so great time to hop back in and check out the new cards.  Going to hold off on putting this on my phone.  I won't get anything done at work.

[naum]

Blizzard tweeted out that player base is now 30M+.

[schild]

The Titanic of games. Everyone loves it. Shouldn't. Makes a fuckload of money.

[Rendakor]

The Titanic of games. Everyone loves it. Shouldn't. Makes a fuckload of money.

Best review NA. Belongs on the front page.

[Paelos]

The Titanic of games. Everyone loves it. Shouldn't. Makes a fuckload of money.

Which we all knew it would. For several pages. Despite the criticisms.

[Malakili]

I feel the same way about this as a Magic player as I do about Call of Duty as a Counter Strike player. It's just still shocking to me how many people prefer a way shittier game.

[Paelos]

We literally went round and round on this almost 2 years ago. It was always going to be a bigger success than more complicated games. Always.

EDIT: Correction, about 1.5 years ago.

This thing is going to make them hundreds of millions. I have no doubt now that I've seen it in action.

[Soln]

People like mayonnaise sandwiches. 

[schild]

People like mayonnaise sandwiches.  

Those aren't people. They're semi-intelligent fat.

[Paelos]

I love when something that the nerds hate does really really well financially. It brings out the best in the haters.

[Malakili]

We literally went round and round on this almost 2 years ago. It was always going to be a bigger success than more complicated games. Always.

And it was always going to be worse than those games too. 

[Paelos]

To you. Your version of fun is not for mass consumption

[Malakili]

To you. Your version of fun is not for mass consumption

No shit. 

[Merusk]

I'm always amazed when people get so upset over matters of taste.  It's like trying to argue GM vs. Toyota; it doesn't matter unless you invested in the wrong one.

[Paelos]

I'm always amazed when people get so upset over matters of taste.  It's like trying to argue GM vs. Toyota; it doesn't matter unless you invested in the wrong one.

ATVI stock is up 5%. It's up almost 100% over the lows in the Vivendi buyout.

[schild]

I love when something that the nerds hate does really really well financially. It brings out the best in the haters.

Eh. I don't think anyone here is upset Hearthstone does well financially. I don't think anyone gives a fuck or expected otherwise. But I do know people would've been happier if they'd maybe made more of a game and less of an unbelievably slow slot machine.