Magic: The Combattening - Hearthstone

[Draegan]

People get pissy when you call their game shit/simple/easy. News at 11.

[schild]

Checkers, being a solved game with no random factors at all, is pretty much a non sequitur in this discussion.

No it isn't. If we presume it's a relative thing, and Checkers is to Hearthstone as Chess is to Magic. If you remove from Chess the instants, enchantments, proper phasing, deck balancing, resource distribution, artifacts, etc and leave behind nothing but the combat phase and sorceries - you end up with Checkers.

[Ironwood]

That's not it at all.

If you want to say it's not good, that's fine.  There are many, many reasons it's not good.  Especially since it's such an 'immature' game.

But this was slightly beyond that, don't you think ?

[Paelos]

The fact Schild keeps wandering into the thread pretty much discounts what he says about not caring.

[Ingmar]

Checkers, being a solved game with no random factors at all, is pretty much a non sequitur in this discussion.

No it isn't. If we presume it's a relative thing, and Checkers is to Hearthstone as Chess is to Magic. If you remove from Chess the instants, enchantments, proper phasing, deck balancing, resource distribution, artifacts, etc and leave behind nothing but the combat phase and sorceries - you end up with Checkers.

Ehhh. In both chess and checkers, the better player will win more or less every time. It's just easier to be good at checkers. The stripped-down mechanics of Hearthstone have basically the opposite effect - it's harder for good players to differentiate themselves because the outcomes are too random. If I was going to make a comparison it would be 5 card draw vs. Texas Hold 'Em or something like that.

It's a hard balance to strike; for a competitive card game to have legs, the game should be random enough that the worse player can steal enough wins to keep them interested, but un-random enough that the better player can see enough sustained success over time to make it worth it to stay invested.

[schild]

The fact Schild keeps wandering into the thread pretty much discounts what he says about not caring.

Nah, its more indicative of how often people post in the thread, and the fact they wasted a great client on something so shitty. Blizzard COULD have crushed Magic and Hex online and become the defacto ccg esport. Instead they made this shit.

[dusematic]

You guys all just sound like bad hearthstone players.

I'm an excellent Hearthstone player.

I challenge you to a duel, holmes.

[Ingmar]

You'd have to play each other 40 times to get a sample size big enough to care about.

[jakonovski]

You guys are missing the point in that HS is a p2w phone game. Design is driven by the need to maximize returns from the whale/free player interaction. Gameplay just has to work enough to cross some skinner box threshold.

[Paelos]

You guys are missing the point in that HS is a p2w phone game. Design is driven by the need to maximize returns from the whale/free player interaction. Gameplay just has to work enough to cross some skinner box threshold.

I think it does that just fine. If anything, the only tweaks they need to make to it are balancing class cards better, and implementing PvE. I honestly think the PvE portion of this thing would be the killer application, rather than the PvP which is average.

[dusematic]

You guys are missing the point in that HS is a p2w phone game. Design is driven by the need to maximize returns from the whale/free player interaction. Gameplay just has to work enough to cross some skinner box threshold.

How much money do you think Schild has put into Magic?  Or just the average 'good' player?  Don't be mad because you can't crack rank 20 bud!

[jakonovski]

I think it does that just fine. If anything, the only tweaks they need to make to it are balancing class cards better, and implementing PvE. I honestly think the PvE portion of this thing would be the killer application, rather than the PvP which is average.

Decent PVE would make it into an entirely different thing. The pics showing Naxxramas pricing make me really suspicious however, as the cost for unlocking everything in Naxx was about 100 bucks IIRC. There were ways to make it cheaper of course, but that kind of a price tag has no business being anywhere near a casual game.

[Paelos]

Again I'll point out that those price tags were wrong. They've already stated the last wing would be free, and those supposed prices had it costing money.

I don't think we know what it will cost, but I don't think it will be that high.

[Hoax]

This game isn't Checkers or Tic-Tac-Toe, I'd say its closer to say Monopoly. But what Hearthstone reminds me most of is pop "music". Music and it makes a shitton of money but deep down we all know that music that is mass produced with lyrics written by someone other than the singer and computers and focus groups determining the sound and massive marketing teams behind every thing the "artist" does just isn't quite real music. That's Hearthstone. Its a video game, its a ccg, but its not a real video game or a real ccg its just some fake pop version of those things.

[Ironwood]

Sure, if you like.

Because Pop Music's done so very badly over the years.   

[Soln]

So, all hate and love aside, why is this game so random?  I bet there was a fair amount of effort to keep a working RNG going.  But why did they bother?  Why not put that monies into a tighter design for balance like other CCGs?   I guess I don't understand the design.  Feels like they choose to emulate Powerball over MODO and it's so far working out for them.

[Simond]

Because Chaos Orb was funny.

[dusematic]

So, all hate and love aside, why is this game so random?  I bet there was a fair amount of effort to keep a working RNG going.  But why did they bother?  Why not put that monies into a tighter design for balance like other CCGs?   I guess I don't understand the design.  Feels like they choose to emulate Powerball over MODO and it's so far working out for them.

Would you also agree that Poker is flawed game design because it also includes RNG?  You guys sound like scared babies on the EQVault forums when WoW first started taking over.  Oh my god, wow is for carebear babies who don't love inverting their own penises and fucking their inverted penises with a  1:1 scaled replica of McQuaids  schlong.

[schild]

So, all hate and love aside, why is this game so random?  I bet there was a fair amount of effort to keep a working RNG going.  But why did they bother?  Why not put that monies into a tighter design for balance like other CCGs?   I guess I don't understand the design.  Feels like they choose to emulate Powerball over MODO and it's so far working out for them.

Would you also agree that Poker is flawed game design because it also includes RNG?  You guys sound like scared babies on the EQVault forums when WoW first started taking over.  Oh my god, wow is for carebear babies who don't love inverting their own penises and fucking their inverted penises with a  1:1 scaled replica of McQuaids  schlong.

Not even a remotely sane comparison, nice try though.

[Jeff Kelly]

I'm taking the bait.

Poker is not a CCG/deck building game. If you wanted to use a very flawed analogy then it would be more akin to a draft mode game where not all the cards are used.

Only a few cards of the whole deck are dealt and all players at the table have very much incomplete information about the hands of the other players. Also a card you have can't be held by any other player. Also cards are reshuffled after each round so you won't get any info from cards already played.

If you could build a deck of poker cards to play with that only you were allowed to draw from, the analogy would make slightly more sense.

Also randomness is not necessarily bad. In fact it's often quite beneficial. Randomness shouldn't be the determining factor in games though. It should be a factor important enough to keep you on your toes but not so dominant as to decide games. Or more importantly it should play no role in the long run. (Which it probably also doesn't for HS)

Poker has mechanisms to offset the randomness. Betting and the psychological game at the table. It doesn't matter if I actually have great cards as long as everyone at the table believes that I do. That's because all players have to deal with incomplete info that also won't be revealed at the end of a round. Even pro players regularly fold with better cards against players that represent a hand they don't have.

A good CCG also has mechanisms to curb the effects of randomness each round. HS doesn't. It will only even out over the long run.

[dusematic]

So, all hate and love aside, why is this game so random?  I bet there was a fair amount of effort to keep a working RNG going.  But why did they bother?  Why not put that monies into a tighter design for balance like other CCGs?   I guess I don't understand the design.  Feels like they choose to emulate Powerball over MODO and it's so far working out for them.

Would you also agree that Poker is flawed game design because it also includes RNG?  You guys sound like scared babies on the EQVault forums when WoW first started taking over.  Oh my god, wow is for carebear babies who don't love inverting their own penises and fucking their inverted penises with a  1:1 scaled replica of McQuaids  schlong.

Not even a remotely sane comparison, nice try though.

Wrong. That guy was ripping hearthstone bc it's too "random" ergo it must have bad game design. 

You guys really sound so sad it's pathetic.  It's really the UO/Trammel fight all over again, just more pathetic because it's over cards instead of virtual worlds.

[schild]

It is overly random as a result of bad game design though. The problem here is you know fuckall about card games and you're typing things. Stop doing that.

[Hoax]

I'm not even sure what Duse's point is. Is he saying Hearthstone is not a bad game as Schild and others contend? Or is he saying its "sad and pathetic" that people who are playing Hearthstone a bunch are crying about how its so random and RNG and p2w because they keep losing horribly at Hearthstone?

I honestly haven't figured that one out.

Or is Duse just a fanboi of this shit game and he's getting all mad about it not being appreciated enough?

  Duse is just trolling. Why didn't I think of that?

[Rendakor]

Or is duse just trolling as usual?

[Merusk]

Or is duse just trolling as usual?

[schild]

Trolling is intelligent. Or at least, should be. He's not trolling, he's just upset he likes a shitty game.

[dusematic]

It is overly random as a result of bad game design though. The problem here is you know fuckall about card games and you're typing things. Stop doing that.

The real problem is you're a huge Magic fanboy and that's cool, but it's weird and sad when you spend 7 pages bashing a game that is basically a derivative of Magic in almost every way because it's not leet enough.

All you have to do is read Penny Arcade or spend 30 seconds Googling to find a player named Trump who has attained Legendary status with multiple "free" or basic decks.  So I would say that you're wrong about the game being "overly" random except that it doesn't even matter.  We're talking about CCG's, everything is random, so your opinion of what is overly random is subjective and colored by your shit-tinted Magic glasses.

[Teleku]

Jesus Christ Duse.

[Margalis]

HS is fundamentally pretty dull from the standpoint of the mechanics and how those are expressed as individual cards. Chess to checkers is a good analogy. Checkers is a competitive game so being good at it is still relative to other people, but at the same time it's definitely an easier game, or at least a simpler one.

What makes HS popular is the total package of presentation, the Blizzard name and Warcraft ties, fancy FX, the different game modes, grinding for better cards, etc, that sit on top of an adequate set of rules and cards. Whereas Magic has shitty presentation, no ties to popular lore, shitty FX, no grinding, etc, but a much more robust core game.

The best thing I can say about the design of the core game is that the Magic system of passing priority doesn't work well in an online environment where each pass has to be explicit. Hearthstone is designed for quicker / smoother online games. If it were a physical game people would come up with a term like "Ameritrash" for it and nobody would play it.

[schild]

It is overly random as a result of bad game design though. The problem here is you know fuckall about card games and you're typing things. Stop doing that.

The real problem is you're a huge Magic fanboy and that's cool, but it's weird and sad when you spend 7 pages bashing a game that is basically a derivative of Magic in almost every way because it's not leet enough.

All you have to do is read Penny Arcade or spend 30 seconds Googling to find a player named Trump who has attained Legendary status with multiple "free" or basic decks.  So I would say that you're wrong about the game being "overly" random except that it doesn't even matter.  We're talking about CCG's, everything is random, so your opinion of what is overly random is subjective and colored by your shit-tinted Magic glasses.

[Johny Cee]

It is overly random as a result of bad game design though. The problem here is you know fuckall about card games and you're typing things. Stop doing that.

The real problem is you're a huge Magic fanboy and that's cool, but it's weird and sad when you spend 7 pages bashing a game that is basically a derivative of Magic in almost every way because it's not leet enough.

All you have to do is read Penny Arcade or spend 30 seconds Googling to find a player named Trump who has attained Legendary status with multiple "free" or basic decks.  So I would say that you're wrong about the game being "overly" random except that it doesn't even matter.  We're talking about CCG's, everything is random, so your opinion of what is overly random is subjective and colored by your shit-tinted Magic glasses.

I know it's pointless to respond since it's just trolling, but...

Did you actually read any of schild's posts?  Or mine?  We'd love this to be a great game, since we like CCGs.  Schild and I have both said there is some fun to be had playing HS, and that it's polished as hell.

The problem is that the game design ignored a shitload of learned lessons in the field of CCGs, their design choices have reduced the game to be overly reliant on RNG and grindy elements, and the shallowness of the mechanics (and limited space to introduce new mechanics) means that the game won't have much stickiness.  If we seem overly critical it's because Blizzard did some things so well and then fell down so badly on others.

Schild's opinion of CCGs should be weighted differently from your average joe's as he has actually done work in the field of designing CCGs.  The rose-tinted glasses comment is particularly inane when you consider that he is generally the loudest voice in promoting new CCG-style games (Hex, etc.)

I had fun with HS for maybe 2 or 3 weeks, and then I hit the grind wall.  Grinding out gold on dailies so that I can run an Arena just isn't something I want to spend my leisure time on, and the lack of trading/sale of owned cards means I can't convert my card winnings from previous Arena runs into gold to run new Arena matches so I just said goodbye.

Any CCG will primarily get compared to MtG because it is the gold standard for CCGs, just like any new MMO will have to bear the scrutiny of comparison to WoW.  As a community, we regularly jump on MMOs for ignoring the lessons learned from WoW, and it is no different here.

[schild]

It's double awful here because they took what they learned when making WoW - "streamline, streamline, streamline" - and took it to an illogical extreme. Just, ugh.

[Morat20]

It's double awful here because they took what they learned when making WoW - "streamline, streamline, streamline" - and took it to an illogical extreme. Just, ugh.

I'm kinda falling down on where they can change HS to 'fix' it. Secrets is about the best interrupt mechanism you can get (actual interrupts would require either massively extending the time players have to wait as each card is played, or forcing some sort of quick reaction from other players. Which is kinda against the whole design).

Maybe some sort of guard/attack mechanism beyond taunt?

Arena, I think, could do with a total overhaul to card selection. The whole fake draft doesn't work when you're not sharing a draft pool. Maybe offer 90 or 120 cards in the proper distribution of commons/experts/rare/legendaries and then build from there?

I think extending the deck to 40 cards and adding one or two cards to the draw might help, as well as adding a better mulligan mechanism.

I think roughly 50% of my non-Arena problem is shit hands with shit replacements, leaving me with (theoretically) balanced decks that I STILL keep drawing late-game hands on. The other 50% is the fact that the game is over on turn 3 or 4, pretty much. Which would be FINE if the game actually ended there, but instead drags on several more turns before the inevitable happens.

Sure, maybe 10% of the time someone gets lucky with JUST the right card to reverse it, but not often enough to be fun.

I guess what it boils down to is I shouldn't have to build a rush deck SOLELY so that most of my draws are viable, and even then it seems the game is still decided about 30% of the way through.

[jakonovski]

Again I'll point out that those price tags were wrong. They've already stated the last wing would be free, and those supposed prices had it costing money.

I don't think we know what it will cost, but I don't think it will be that high.

I stand corrected. The cynical part of me wants to say that Blizz changed their plans after this trial balloon (intentional or not) went down in flames. But we shall see!

In the meantime, I'm still tempted to buy my way into a few arenas. I have no idea why. I guess it's because I never get to play limited formats against strangers in MtG.

[Rendakor]

Or you could come post in the Hex Beta Key thread, then spend your money on a CCG that doesn't suck.