Magic: The Combattening - Hearthstone

[Rendakor]

I expect they waited until Hex monetized. No point in suing them into oblivion if they were just going to bankrupt the old fashioned way.

[Simond]

That is a very sad lawsuit.  It's a sign of weakness from wizards if nothing else.

Haha what.

[jakonovski]

Since I have so little opportunity to play MtG (hate hate hate the online, wish I never spent any money there), I decided to get into Hearthstone. Helps that the SO is also playing.

Anyway, seems fun but indeed rather shallow. Made a Warrior deck, and winning casual games because of cantrips of all things, which is funny. I wanted to play murlocs but with the starting card pool 1 health minions don't seem to have a hope to survive, like ever, so big dudes it is.

I only got one arena run in, and it seems incredibly luck based. It's some weird combination of the bad aspects of sealed and draft both. Got to 3 wins, and the last game was hilarious: I was against another mage who had basically nothing but burn, removal and card draw. He first played one of them mana drakes that grow when you cast spells, and for the rest of the game nothing of mine stood on the table even for one turn.

edit: is there a way to see your win percentage somehow?

[jakonovski]

I'm monologuing again, but: what is the point of not having all of your basic cards in the beginning? You can't buy them with real money, so the only point of it is to make your first games suck as much as possible. Or to make you grind against the computer, which is basically the height of tedium, complete with constant slowdowns.

[schild]

Game is bad, dude. That's all there is to it.

[jakonovski]

Soooo maybe about 50 more conceded mp matches and I get all the basic Warlock cards. No gold for any of that ofc. They really want you to play the computer for hours on end.

That is to say, I'm out.

[HaemishM]

They do seem to want you to play a lot of games, but there doesn't really seem any reason to make you do so. For everything they did right with this game, there are about 30 things they did wrong for... reasons.

[jakonovski]

The whole computer thing worked for your first class that you used to unlock the other classes. You got the cards while basically tutorializing. But after that? It's just pointless tedium. No challenge and you don't learn anything. Or you can be thrown in against people who have all the cards. Which just doesn't work at all because you get next to nothing for losing.

The whole setup might have been tolerable when everyone was new to the game in beta, but now it's just broken. People always say how a game should be fun from the start and you shouldn't be made to slog through boring stuff. I'm pretty tolerant as far as that goes, but Hearthstone has hammered home the point of that argument. It really is astonishingly stupid.

[Tannhauser]

Eh, I'm still having fun.  Got a sweet druid deck that is moving up through the rankings, have won 10 in a row with it but the last game was razor close.  I jump on, do the quests and log for the day.  Get a few free packs.  Life is good.

My major complaint right now, is 'what's the point'?  But as a casual gamer, this shit is right in my wheelhouse.

[Ironwood]

You are the target market.

[Paelos]

I play it for a week at a time, then don't touch it. Then pick up the cards again for dailies.

It's not a bad game. I've never spent a dollar on it though.

[Ironwood]

You are not.

[Paelos]

You are not.

Nope, but I like it all the same.

[jakonovski]

I lied a bit, because I continued playing. Built a passable Priest deck from the starter cards after leveling in the one arena I had gold for. Basically it's life gain/card draw that can either finish with a giant burn (well more like 2-4 burns) or just dudes with double digit health. If it doesn't fizzle out in the beginning I can pretty reliably get to a full hand of 10 (do they actually spell that out anywhere, I just randomly found out). Helps that I got Malygos from a pack.

I would classify the above as pretty close to an actual control deck.

edit: sorry Schild, for not rage quitting yet. It's still not a good game, terribly unbalanced and sensitive to your starting hand.

[jakonovski]

Welp, I hit the wall of paying players slamming down multiple legendaries (rank 18ish) and the glacial pace of gold acquisition pretty much means this one's done for real now. A quick calculation gives 2 hours of daily grinding (at an impossible 100% win rate) to get enough for an arena, and then it's almost a month, on average, to get a legendary. Major catass required.

I briefly considered just paying to get a deck, but to get a good selection of legendaries we're talking hundreds of euros, which is ridiculous for a shallow small time game like this. So I am forced to conclude that this is just another abusive cell phone p2w game, only with a Blizzard branded veneer.

[Tannhauser]

My druid deck has hit the wall at rank 15.  Lost like four games in a row last night.  Some was due to poor play but I also knew the competition would get fiercer.  I really haven't put a ton of money into the game yet so I'm not unhappy with my budget decks performance.  I enjoy doing the quests to get free packs especially. 

[proudft]

A quick calculation gives 2 hours of daily grinding (at an impossible 100% win rate) to get enough for an arena, and then it's almost a month, on average, to get a legendary. Major catass required.

I haven't noticed it being that bad.  But I do stack up my quests, gathering two or three over a couple days, and cross my fingers I can do more than one at a time.  I get enough for an arena run about every other day I play for reals, and then wait to do THAT when I have some quests.  But I find the game fun even just playing random ranked or unranked games.  I'm lingering around 18 ranking and I have very few cards, but it amuses me well enough when I play it.

I never played Magic, that might be helping.

[jakonovski]

I was actually way optimistic in my calculations.

A daily is worth 40 gold, so you have to get 110 gold to get an arena going. 10 gold every 3 wins means you need 33 wins. Ten minutes per match at an impossible 100% win rate means 330 minutes. You can of course play less and stack quests, but that sort of gaming is just not for me because a major part of the thrill is in constantly optimizing your deck. I was sorely tempted by the idea of just paying for arenas, but the price is just too damn high. I could fund a new casual M:tG deck every month instead, which is like a million times more appealing, even if I only get to play a few times per month.

 

[Falconeer]

Not trying to insult anybody here, really, I don't mean to be a jerk and I am not thinking of anyone specifically. But while I had genuine fun in Hearthstone for two weeks a while ago, after trying 7 seconds of Hex yesterday I feel bad for those two weeks because it almost feels like as long as they keep dumbing down things and make them big juicy and colourful many of us will eventually fall for it. It's bimbofication, the "market" (not just the gaming marker) is luring us hard into becoming mindless idiots, easier to lead around with pretty blinking lights.

[Ironwood]

Some people want that.  I'll repeat ;  you are not the market.

You chaps keep dividing 'Gamers' into subsets of 'hardcore and Casuals' not realizing that the initial set of 'gamers' you're thinking about ISN'T as small as you think it is.

There's a metric fuckton of people out there who are Gamers solely because they're playing fucking Candy Crush like rampantly addicted lemmings.  These are the people who will take a wee gander at Hearthstone and like it.

That may lead others on to harder drugs, like Magic or Hex, and that's cool, but mostly it will not.

You're talking about 'bimboification' of a market that you were in as a young man and thinking with some kind of fucking mental elite view that it's a bad thing, when it's been happening for DECADES.

Hell, as a lifelong PC Gamer, I find the Wii to be abhorrent, but Elena likes it just fine.  The wife loves the Facebook games.  So do many milliions of others and kids.  Hearthstone is getting those lower end gamers (which are present in high numbers) into the card space.

Which is fine.

You've moved 'back', if you like, to your comfort zone with Hex, reminding you as it does of 'better' times with more complicated play and endless variations and reminding you that you're a smarter gamer with lots more time and that's great.

But don't think the market enjoying Hearthstone gives two fucks about your opinion about how much cleverer you are and how dumb they are.

[Falconeer]

You're talking about 'bimboification' of a market that you were in as a young man and thinking with some kind of fucking mental elite

Well, my criticism to modern society is on a much wider scale than gaming, but I'll use your quote to make some sort of a twisted pun to remind you that when I was a young man I was actually playing Elite. We were constantly challenged, by everything around us, and that was useful exercise for the brain.
Useless anecdote: My son is twenty years old now and he seems to be able to see what I am talking about since we have the same interests except they are phased by those 20 years. He couldn't see my point five or ten years ago, but now he can and he's getting angry at the hard-to-dodge mental spoonfeeding (not-just-in-games) everyone and especially children are exposed to now.

Anyway, sorry for the elitist derail. It was never meant to say "you are stupid if you play this game".

But don't think the market enjoying Hearthstone gives two fucks about your opinion about how much cleverer you are and how dumb they are.

Seriously? Awww you are mean for bursting my bubble!

[jakonovski]

Flawed and oversimplified mechanics are not the terrible parts of Hearthstone. I could live with a silly unbalanced card game by itself. However I find it downright unethical how free players are a product sold to the high paying whales, so they can use their card collection against people who for the most part don't stand a chance. Hearthstone the game is pretty much fully sacrificed to the gods of predatory in game transactions.

That Blizzard made a beeline to abusive business practices, makes me lose a lot of respect for them.  

[Ironwood]

But that's like pointing out that people played Battlechess because the pieces eat each other.  The game was still the same.

The reason I'm loving the look of Elite:Dangerous is because it takes my imagination as a kid and puts it on the screen.  I didn't see sticks and lines.  I saw what Braben is showing us NOW.

If it's the same game, I honestly do not give a fuck;  I'll play the shite out of it because I played the shite out of it as a kid.  The fact that it's actually got a lot of new features is awesome, but secondary to me.

It would be the same if someone released LoM ;  you know, that wargame that people took the piss out of me for because Chess was actually more complicated ?  Of course it fucking was, but it didn't stop me riding up to Ushgarak and cutting that cunts icy head off.

And really, if you're not intending to call people stupid, 'Mindless Idiots' is a good phrase to avoid.

 

[Tannhauser]

Not trying to insult anybody here, really, I don't mean to be a jerk and I am not thinking of anyone specifically. But while I had genuine fun in Hearthstone for two weeks a while ago, after trying 7 seconds of Hex yesterday I feel bad for those two weeks because it almost feels like as long as they keep dumbing down things and make them big juicy and colourful many of us will eventually fall for it. It's bimbofication, the "market" (not just the gaming marker) is luring us hard into becoming mindless idiots, easier to lead around with pretty blinking lights.

So you think the game companies are putting out dumb games and that's all there is so we buy and play dumb games?  Supply causes demand?  While Wildstar and even TESO have increased the difficulty of their games?  Or did you just want to come in here and take a shot at HS?  Go ahead, Blizzard will wipe away their tears with $100 bills.

[Ironwood]

Flawed and oversimplified mechanics are not the terrible parts of Hearthstone. I could live with a silly unbalanced card game by itself. However I find it downright unethical how free players are a product sold to the high paying whales, so they can use their card collection against people who for the most part don't stand a chance. Hearthstone the game is pretty much fully sacrificed to the gods of predatory in game transactions.

That Blizzard made a beeline to abusive business practices, makes me lose a lot of respect for them.  

But they don't have any matchmaking technology, like that other great company that hosts those StarCraft games !!

 

[Maledict]

Not trying to insult anybody here, really, I don't mean to be a jerk and I am not thinking of anyone specifically. But while I had genuine fun in Hearthstone for two weeks a while ago, after trying 7 seconds of Hex yesterday I feel bad for those two weeks because it almost feels like as long as they keep dumbing down things and make them big juicy and colourful many of us will eventually fall for it. It's bimbofication, the "market" (not just the gaming marker) is luring us hard into becoming mindless idiots, easier to lead around with pretty blinking lights.

For the love of god, this is ridiculous.

I think every generation has said the same. It is totally untrue.

There is always a market for easy to access, simple leisure pastimes. That it exists or is catered too doesn't harm the harder difficulty stuff - look at the success of Europa Universalis, Civ 5, Hex, Dark Souls, Wildstar, Day Z. The complex market still exists, is still catered for, and is growing every year.

Hell, draughts has been played for centuries and look how easy to access that is!

[dusematic]

You guys all just sound like bad hearthstone players.

[Paelos]

Ironwood's spot on. The game is already immensely popular, and the people that want to go whack off to how awesome they are can do that in the HEX forum.

The market can bear both of these games. I honestly think some people just get upset that the more complicated game isn't the more popular one.

[schild]

You guys all just sound like bad hearthstone players.

I'm an excellent Hearthstone player.

The problem isn't that it's dumbed down and simplified. I'm fine with that. There's certainly no problem with the polish, as its the most polished CCG ever. The problem isn't that people like it (even though those people are wrong to like it). The problem is that it's poorly designed. As I said, it's the Farmville of CCGs. Cardville.

I honestly think some people just get upset that the more complicated game isn't the more popular one.

Literally no one cares about this.

[Fordel]

Is it more popular then MTG? I didn't think it got to that point yet.

[schild]

Is it more popular then MTG? I didn't think it got to that point yet.

Not even remotely. But even if it were, there's no secondary market to actually support the volume necessary for meaningful constructed play. Basically, comparing it to MTG is a waste of time.

[Fordel]

That's what I thought. MTG is basically legion and forever 

[Slayerik]

Hex is great. Hearthstone is great in its own right. I seem to get to about rank 9-10 and decide I'm done grinding, as my w/l evens out and my progress slows. I have never looked up another deck, but I know good card advantage and deck building from years of Magic. I have a couple very competitive Magic playing friends, and see some of the top players in HS are actual competitive MtG players. There is some nuance and skill involved in this game, and if you think otherwise you are kidding yourself or haven't played against good players. There are constant decision points in these games, some of these are obvious but many are not. Card knowledge, knowing not to dump your hand before the Mage's 7th turn and shit...could lose you the game if you don't get those guys out, but could lose you the game to hold back in fear of that Flamestrike you just KNOW he has. You have your finisher and the mana to play him, but you haven't put out anything that forced a poly yet. Do you gamble?

You have to construct your deck knowing you will face these points in games. If I play my pally vrs a Mage or Shaman, you won't see me drop Mr. Big Dick Tirion Fordring until I've forced a Hex or Poly.  I just won't. If he's drawn into 2, well...luck got me this time. There's quite a bit under the shallow surface that many will wave off as RNG or getting 'beat by Legendaries' - when you just don't know the game well enough to build a proper deck or make the proper play against your opponent. As much as you guys hate hunters, you probably play a shaman deck and still use that 2 leftover mana to make a totem. Most the time, I won't. It helps his combo. Fuck his combo. Getting a 0/2 healing totem isn't worth the extra card he's going to get from the extra 2/1 haste dog he'll proper fuck you with.

Anyway, the game isn't Magic. But it sure as shit isn't checkers.

[schild]

Actually, comparatively it is checkers. Of course card gamers are going to be better at any card game than non-card gamers, which Hearthstone is chock the fuck full of. The barrier for getting ranked well in Hearthstone is "don't misplay." Hearthstone punishes the ever loving shit out of misplays as it's such a swingy game. People who play lots of card games will make less misplays. Those people doing well doesn't mean Hearthstone is good. Doesn't mean the design is good either.

[Ingmar]

Checkers, being a solved game with no random factors at all, is pretty much a non sequitur in this discussion.