Magic: The Combattening - Hearthstone

[tazelbain]

Ya, given how much money Wizards is leaving on the table, there is room for someone to swoop in and clean house. The game itself pretty damn good, but the platform is shit. I feels like its taking forever with their 2-steps back, 3 steps forward development process. I use to be confident that Hex could swoop in an eat MTGO lunch, but with Hex moving so slow and Hearthstone eating the casual market, its not so clear.

[luckton]

Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did.

Sig worthy.

[schild]

Ya, given how much money Wizards is leaving on the table, there is room for someone to swoop in and clean house. The game itself pretty damn good, but the platform is shit. I feels like its taking forever with their 2-steps back, 3 steps forward development process. I use to be confident that Hex could swoop in an eat MTGO lunch, but with Hex moving so slow and Hearthstone eating the casual market, its not so clear.

I don't know why you have said that now in the private forum and the public forum. What part of this Hex development cycle strikes you as slow?

[Quinton]

Given that MTGO was originally released in 2002, comparing where they've gotten to with where HEX is in alpha does not make me think HEX development is terribly slow by comparison.  I think it'd be a mistake for CZO to chase the casual CCG market -- a place where a bunch of smaller shops are trying to compete with Blizzard -- instead of focusing on the more serious TCG market where MTGO is the only game in town and, to date, has improved at what could be called a glacial pace at best.  I'm not convinced that casual CCGs are going to be bigger (monetarily) than the more hardcore ones, but even if they are, it seems like there's plenty of money to be had in the more serious business TCG market.

[schild]

Magic is bigger than every other card game put together, multiple times over. The casual gaming market doesn't really exist comparatively. Hearthstone is going to carve out a niche, but being popular has never automatically meant something is good.

[tazelbain]

It took 4 months to make games stable by adding card dancing. Sealed has been out 25 days with barely any discernible progress. The gem interface is still broken after 4 months in?  Not that stuff is insurmountable but Hex looks at least 2 years away from where Hearthstone is today and be serious player in the TCG.  That's lead time for competitors and lots of streams highlighting your unstable platform.

[Kitsune]

Hex's client is shit compared to Hearthstone's in the polish and stability categories, there's not much question.  Hex doesn't have as much room on the screen for useless bells and whistles, since it needs the room for actual cards instead of the stripped-down monster icons that Hearthstone can get away with, but even as a minimalist interface Hex's client is not great.

[Ironwood]

I don't really think it's fair to compare the two in, well, any category.

[Ingmar]

I may look at the slowpoke backers stuff.  May.

FYI the slacker backer stuff closes on April 1st.

[Sophismata]

I don't really think it's fair to compare the two in, well, any category.

I don't know how big the HEX team is, but given that their design is 99% cribbed from an existing game, progress seems pretty slow to me. I work in enterprise software, not video games, but pure software development isn't hard. Particularly if all the major content is pretty much finalised.

[Morat20]

Hearthstone tip: Those "draw a card" abilities are rather important. I can't help but notice the guys out of cards lose to the guys with cards, pretty regularly.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Hearthstone tip: Those "draw a card" abilities are rather important. I can't help but notice the guys out of cards lose to the guys with cards, pretty regularly.

It's why I like constructed warlock decks, much more oppurtunity to fill your deck with cards that combo off eachother than the random "draw a cards" but warlock arena is all kinds of terribad.

[Numtini]

The only functional part I can see is individual games with decks made from all available cards. The builder is in a remedial state. Tournaments still don't work past the first round. There's no auction house, no guilds, no system for purchasing decks, no PVE, not all the cards are in, the client doesn't support the card backs and mats promised to pledges. This is nine months after the kickstarter and four months after the alpha.

All this for a game that implied it was close to a full featured beta originally listed as starting last September. That included Cory assuring people that when they said that the game wouldn't be complete at launch, they didn't mean the features mentioned in the kickstarter, but new features they were planning down the road and a few of the stretch goals.

The other thing I can't get past is this is not an MMO or full immersive RPG or shooter. It's cards on a screen.

And if it takes months of alpha testing to get cards working right, how exactly are they going to add new decks?

As to Hearthstone's complexity, they can add and change that. Get ten million people playing and then when they want more complexity add it once they're addicted.

[Morat20]

Hearthstone tip: Those "draw a card" abilities are rather important. I can't help but notice the guys out of cards lose to the guys with cards, pretty regularly.

It's why I like constructed warlock decks, much more oppurtunity to fill your deck with cards that combo off eachother than the random "draw a cards" but warlock arena is all kinds of terribad.

My last pass through the arena every crushing victory I had corresponded to having "lots of cards in my hand" whereas my crushing defeats all boiled down to "That guy had like 8 cards and his hand and I had none which made me screwed despite having 28 health to his 7".

[Ironwood]

The trouble with Warlock decks like that is if the other guy can just hold you back juuuuust enough, you end up killing yourself.

I have a really good Lock deck that burns through cards and this has happened to me a couple of times.  Never really that funny, alas.

[Severian]

Hearthstone tip: Those "draw a card" abilities are rather important. I can't help but notice the guys out of cards lose to the guys with cards, pretty regularly.

Agreed, card draw is huge. Gameplay is all about getting better trades, control, synergies, etc at any given time than your opponent, and having more options always puts you in a better position to execute. Hero powers that might allow you to defer using a card, even if the power is inferior to another possible play, can be almost as good as a draw. As is a willingness to ride out some damage or loss of control to preserve your cards for when they'll be more effective/decisive. My best Arena run came with a Shaman deck which taught me a little of that.

That approach is causing me to take a lot of time on my turns weighing options, and I'm finding Arena pretty tense :/

[Paelos]

I still chuckle when I fireball one of my enraging cards just to piss them off and up their attack. Synergy cloud dovetail!

[Hawkbit]

Before I go getting into this, am I able to play directly against friends?  I want to set up a deck for me and my kid to play against each other when we want.

[Slayerik]

So, finally rockin out Arena pretty well. Had my best (9 wins) with a rogue, basically loaded up eviserates, Defias, SI agents, backstabs, +2 attack dwarfs (and the 1 cost guy) and some cheap stuff to help combo. Cold blood can work well too. Very fast and fun deck. The next one I made was the opposite, 8 win druid slow deck that just hammered things if you let it get the mana. I have a 5 win Shaman run going now, but I'm sure I'll fail before the 7 win, 150+ gold payout.

Made a horrible rush priest arena deck. Managed 4 wins, but not recommended!

[Ironwood]

Before I go getting into this, am I able to play directly against friends?  I want to set up a deck for me and my kid to play against each other when we want.

Yes.

[MrHat]

So, finally rockin out Arena pretty well. Had my best (9 wins) with a rogue, basically loaded up eviserates, Defias, SI agents, backstabs, +2 attack dwarfs (and the 1 cost guy) and some cheap stuff to help combo. Cold blood can work well too. Very fast and fun deck. The next one I made was the opposite, 8 win druid slow deck that just hammered things if you let it get the mana. I have a 5 win Shaman run going now, but I'm sure I'll fail before the 7 win, 150+ gold payout.

Made a horrible rush priest arena deck. Managed 4 wins, but not recommended!

Oh man, congrats.

My last two runs were a 1-3 Paladin and a 2-3 Rogue deck.

That was after a 10-3 Shaman run.

[trias_e]

Card draw is nice, but if you find yourself down 5 cards (and he didn't get some crazy draw with cult master or starving buzzard or something), you're probably not getting enough out of your cards.  You don't really need any card draw if your deck has strong cards which are likely to 2 for 1 your opponent.  You really only need card draw if you have a very low curve or a weak deck that is going to get behind on cards.  On the note of card draw, cult master, azure drake, and loot hoarder are really good cards.  

Rogue is absolutely devastating when you get 2+ backstabs and 2+ eviscerates.  It also really sucks when you get no backstabs but a bunch of combo cards :(.   Rush, priest, and arena are not words I have ever heard put together, so 4 wins is probably pretty good for it.

This is the most aggressive deck I've made in arena in a while:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/585853/Hearthstone_Screenshot_2.21.2014.07.33.33.png  
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/585853/Hearthstone_Screenshot_2.21.2014.07.33.35.png  

It's super fun and can really put out some surprising burst damage.  I love Warrior in arena, one of my best classes and also in my opinion one of the most fun to play.  Some picks I made late were coldlight oracle, battle rage, and warsong commander.  Not great cards in general, but given how low curve my deck was, they made perfect sense, and they've definitely helped me take games.

[MrHat]

I didn't get enough card draw, but wasn't really given any options.

Currently a very slow 1-0 (played a paladin that went to maybe round 18 or so).

Figured you can't have too many fireballs, and never got a flamestrike option or even +magic options so I was left with Blizzard for clear/control.

Edit: 4-3 was final. I could've done with a few more minions.

[Morat20]

My last mage run went 3-2.

I think I'm loading up on too many spells. Of the three losses, two were because I just didn't have the minions. The two wins, I drew a good ration of spells to minions.

And yes, zapping your own minions for the enrage or to force a card draw are hilarious.

Whatever that stealthed 0/1 "give a random minion +1 health card is, that's a bitch and a half. I've had more than one game where two of those have been dumped out and just stayed stealthed and serious fucked me.

[Rasix]

Blood imp.  Really sucks when you have no method to clear it. 

Heh, on my current arena warrior deck, I think I'd only be able to clear it with cleave.  I didn't bother picking up a whirlwilnd. This deck is weird.  I has nearly zero taunt, tons of charge and just gets them to lethal really fast.  It's working well.  Now that I've said that, I'll drop the next 3.  Probably to druids.

[Hawkbit]

My kid and I only started playing yesterday.  It works for us.  She's 3 of 5 and I'm 3 of 3 in Play.  We're noobs, but it's fun.  I know it's not as deep as most other TCGs.  However, it might be a good stepping stone for us to jump into Magic in the next year or two.

[MrHat]

I figured out what I was doing wrong with my mage play.

I wasn't taking full advantage of freeze, basically killing units that are frozen the same round I froze them rather than spreading the damage around a bit and using AOE after to kill everything.

Edit: Had an amazing draw in the arena today, just a near perfect set of Mage cards, pairs of all the useful spells (frostbolt, fireball, flamestrike, pyroblast and plenty of good 1 and 4 draws. Ended up with my first 12 win run.

[Rasix]

2 Pyroblasts.  EEEP.  Had a good run with a pyroblast/Rag deck.  Rag is such bullshit, but it always seems when I play him that someone has a cloning or mind control ability. 

I'm getting better results.  Usually go 5-6 wins now.  Except for my shaman draw, where I did an 0-3 and was glad when it was over.  My shaman draws are total shit, and I can't seem to figure out how to play them in arena.  Warrior/mage/druid are all solid. Paladin/hunter are OK.  Rogue/priest/shaman are pretty much my personal shit tier. 

[Morat20]

My shaman is just total shit everywhere, but somehow they seem to curbstomp me with ridiculous ease. It's BAD when you keep praying for firestorm or whatever that "nuke the enemy world for 4 points" card because you can't get a goddamn break. I'm trading 2-1 and still can't keep minions on the field.

I did Mage in area again -- another 3-2. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm making my mana curve too steep in the middle. I thought I had plenty of 2 and 3 point minions, but every game I lost had me draw (and discard, and then draw AGAIN) a handful of 4+ cards and the two games I won had me start with two or so 2 or 3 mana cost ones.

I mean, the games I won were absolute runaways, and two of the games I lost were close (and one was a shaman curbstomping me, but I keep thinking if I'm THAT screwed by an opening draw three times, then I'm drafting wrong.

It's especially annoying because my ranked mage is doing well, despite basically being "Basic mage plus handful of expert cards I happen to have" -- I seem to have a solid win/loss record. (Then again, does Arena match you against random people or people who suck as much as you do?)

[Severian]

(Then again, does Arena match you against random people or people who suck as much as you do?)

I have a strong impression that it reconsiders the matchmaking each round, based on your current record.

[Simond]

Correct. It's the smart way to run things; it makes 0-3 stompings much less likely to happen (unless you have a really bad deck), which in turn encourages you that "Hey, even that awful deck went 2-3/3-3/etc. - if I try again, maybe I'll get a better draught!"

[Morat20]

Correct. It's the smart way to run things; it makes 0-3 stompings much less likely to happen (unless you have a really bad deck), which in turn encourages you that "Hey, even that awful deck went 2-3/3-3/etc. - if I try again, maybe I'll get a better draught!"

I went 4-2 with a Warlock today. I barely beat a Shaman who had somehow managed to make a murloc deck. I'm not kidding, I hadn't drawn Hellfire I'd have been slaughtered by a field full of Murlocs with at least three buffs on them.

I gotta remember that Hellfire ISN'T Flamestrike -- twice today I've dropped a minion then hellfired, because I'm used to mages. And, you know, lost the minion. :)

[Slayerik]

Went 12-1 . Paid about 500 gold. Nothing amazing, just a solid ass deck with answers. I really like having a couple +spell damage guys for the lightnings. Rockbiter is amazing, and you cant see it but I had 2 azure drakes, a silver hand knight, a sunwalker, and 2 fire elementals. Seemed like having good 3 drops was key to the success. Anyway, pretty pumped :)

[Tannhauser]

Well done Slayer!  Did you use a spreadsheet for your draft? 

[Slayerik]

Nope, but I used Antigravity's tier list for a while until I felt I knew what cards were best for the classes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AifXEOqTcGcLdFVvWk1GRjVJTHJUaTVLcGViR1RRTFE&gid=20