Magic: The Combattening - Hearthstone

[Lakov_Sanite]

I know they say paladin is top tier but my highest runs are always shaman decks.  6-8 wins usually if I get decent draws.

[Hawkbit]

Are there plans to be able to gift packs?  I know they squashed trading.  However, it's a big pita to put a payment method on my kid's account, buy her some cards, then remove the payment. 

She actually handed me my ass twice last night.  I stopped going easy on her and then she started dropping the hammer.

[schild]

Are there plans to be able to gift packs?  I know they squashed trading.  However, it's a big pita to put a payment method on my kid's account, buy her some cards, then remove the payment. 

She actually handed me my ass twice last night.  I stopped going easy on her and then she started dropping the hammer.

How old is your kiddo?

[Hawkbit]

Almost 9.  She's pretty bright, though. 

[Ironwood]

It's not a complicated game.  With the right cards, Elena will MURDER you.

[Morat20]

For the record, the Rogue card "Headcrack" is a bullshit card.

That is all.

And then I went 0-3 in Arena with a paladin. Jesus what an awful game. Well over half my cards were under 4 mana (heck, 40% were three or less) and the first two games? Drew NOTHING under 4. Initial or replacement.

I had nothing to pick off minions except other minions, nothing to draw cards, only had one taunt at all even offered to me. No heals, no conscreation... The second I lost board control I was screwed because minions was basically ALL I had.

[schild]

For the record, the Rogue card "Headcrack" is a bullshit card.

That is all.

And then I went 0-3 in Arena with a paladin. Jesus what an awful game. Well over half my cards were under 4 mana (heck, 40% were three or less) and the first two games? Drew NOTHING under 4. Initial or replacement.

I had nothing to pick off minions except other minions, nothing to draw cards, only had one taunt at all even offered to me. No heals, no conscreation... The second I lost board control I was screwed because minions was basically ALL I had.

You might've been playing against children. I've heard they're brutal in Hearthstone.

[Ironwood]

lol

[Morat20]

For the record, the Rogue card "Headcrack" is a bullshit card.

That is all.

And then I went 0-3 in Arena with a paladin. Jesus what an awful game. Well over half my cards were under 4 mana (heck, 40% were three or less) and the first two games? Drew NOTHING under 4. Initial or replacement.

I had nothing to pick off minions except other minions, nothing to draw cards, only had one taunt at all even offered to me. No heals, no conscreation... The second I lost board control I was screwed because minions was basically ALL I had.

You might've been playing against children. I've heard they're brutal in Hearthstone.

Given how thoroughly my son trashes me in some games, it would not surprise me at all. :)

[Morat20]

And I'm thinking I'm calling it "done" in Arena.

I obviously just suck too much for words. 0-3, 1-3, 0-3....I can't seem to win a game anymore. I seem to do worse when I'm actually consulting card rankings than if I just pick randomly.

Good mana curve, bad mana curve, it doesn't matter. It all ends with me getting stomped into the ground. I'm guessing the common denominator here is "me".

[schild]

I'm guessing the common denominator here is "me".

Typically I'd be all for calling someone out in this sort of situation like that, but in this case I'm just going to go with "No, it's not you, it's Hearthstone."

[Morat20]

I'm guessing the common denominator here is "me".

Typically I'd be all for calling someone out in this sort of situation like that, but in this case I'm just going to go with "No, it's not you, it's Hearthstone."

Maybe. I'm sort of on the fence about that, because I really think "it's just bad luck"  is sorta a biased explanation.

I do a lot better with decks I construct myself, but I was (before the latest ranking wipe) just hovering around 17 or 18, so I wasn't exactly good (although some of that was I'd flip between classes, rather than sticking with my 'best' class because casual play is so freaking hit or miss that I'd rather just lose rank than have casual match me up with a guy with a ridiculous legendary murloc deck).

*shrug*. Mostly I win if I get momentum going in Arena, but the random deck draws mean I rarely have ANY "fuck the board" cards. A custom deck I can at least make sure I have a lot of "fuck you" cards (flamestrikes, hexes, whatever) to make them waste cards and give me some breathing space, but Arena? I dunno, it just doesn't seem to work out. I get offered lots of shit cards, or cards great in conjunction with another card, but that doesn't do a hole lot of good.

I think Arena might be better if they just gave you 90 cards and let you pick 30 from that, rather than 3 at a time for 30 tries.

[schild]

Morat, it is bad luck.

It's more luck-based than skill-based. Had you had a run of wins it would not necessarily be because you were better than all of your opponents.

[Simond]

Morat, try watching some of the decent arena streamers for tips and analyse their plays as you go. A good way to do that is pausing at the start of a turn, decide what you'd play in that turn, see what they actually do, and then work out why they were different.

Trump's pretty good for that as he tends to explain/think out load as he goes.

Schild's wrong, by the way. If the game boiled down to just RNG then even the top players would trend to 50% win-rates over time instead of the 70-80% they have. Just throwing hands up in the air and going "it's all luck!" doesn't really help anyone; of course chance is a part of it, but it's not the only part.

[Job601]

It's more important to not take bad cards in arena than to get really good ones.  You'll do better with a team of solid value guys than you will with a deck of leper gnomes and flamestrikes.  Of course, the decks that are lucky enough to have both are the best.  It's harder to come back from a bad position in general in Hearthstone than in other similar games, so winning the early game and controlling the board are really important.

It's just not true that there are not difficult decisions in Hearthstone.  If you don't think they're there, it's because you're not good enough to see them, not because the game's luck-based.

[Paelos]

I see this like poker. It has a lot of luck involved, but the better players can minimize that luck through their strategy and risk management.

[Morat20]

I'd like to reiterate that headcrack is a total bullshit card. Three points of damage, three mana, returns to hand as long as it's a combo. OVER AND OVER and there's no way to stop it. Except run the rogue out of cards.

[schild]

Schild's wrong, by the way. If the game boiled down to just RNG then even the top players would trend to 50% win-rates over time instead of the 70-80% they have. Just throwing hands up in the air and going "it's all luck!" doesn't really help anyone; of course chance is a part of it, but it's not the only part.

No, I'm not wrong. I said a few pages back that you need to not make egregious play errors. But even then, you can still get trounced in this game. The top players having a 70-80% win rate says more about the intelligence of the player base than it does the top players as this is far more luck-based than well, Magic.

I'm sorry if saying the game is way more luck-based than it should be offends people that like it, except that I'm not sorry and it is.

Edit: Basically this, and I feel dirty for using a meme to make a point.

[Simond]

Schild's wrong, by the way. If the game boiled down to just RNG then even the top players would trend to 50% win-rates over time instead of the 70-80% they have. Just throwing hands up in the air and going "it's all luck!" doesn't really help anyone; of course chance is a part of it, but it's not the only part.

No, I'm not wrong. I said a few pages back that you need to not make egregious play errors. But even then, you can still get trounced in this game. The top players having a 70-80% win rate says more about the intelligence of the player base than it does the top players as this is far more luck-based than well, Magic.

I'm not saying that luck doesn't play a part but you can't really just handwave off "help me play better" with "It'd all just RNG. Deal with it" when you yourself admit that skill (or "the intelligence of the player base", if you prefer) is a factor. Yes, there will ultimately be a skill level which boils down to "whoever drew the best cards wins" (or "who got lucky on the random effect cards" or whatever) but that's not exactly exclusive to Hearthstone - and if Morat (sorry, Morat but you're a good example) is struggling to reach break-even point in the arena then there's probably more factors in play than just bad luck.

It might be bad card selection, or sub-optimal plays, or what have you but consistently missing the 50% win rate level over multiple arena runs cannot just be the RNG screwing him again and again.

[Morat20]

It might be bad card selection, or sub-optimal plays, or what have you but consistently missing the 50% win rate level over multiple arena runs cannot just be the RNG screwing him again and again.

I agree. Of course, they just reset the rankings again so who knows it that effects Arena. I just know I've gone from from generally doing 2-3 at worst (and generally 4-3 or 5-3) on average to 1-3s and 0-3s and I know my skill didn't collapse, and if anything I'm choosing better cards since I've, you know, started putting in the effort and using spreadsheets and the like.

I still think I'd prefer to choose 30 cards from 90 rather than 1 from 3 30 times in a row.

[MrHat]

It might be bad card selection, or sub-optimal plays, or what have you but consistently missing the 50% win rate level over multiple arena runs cannot just be the RNG screwing him again and again.

I agree. Of course, they just reset the rankings again so who knows it that effects Arena. I just know I've gone from from generally doing 2-3 at worst (and generally 4-3 or 5-3) on average to 1-3s and 0-3s and I know my skill didn't collapse, and if anything I'm choosing better cards since I've, you know, started putting in the effort and using spreadsheets and the like.

I still think I'd prefer to choose 30 cards from 90 rather than 1 from 3 30 times in a row.

I'm with you.  I was consistently running 5-8 wins.  Now I've had a bunch of 0-3 2-3 runs.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Just got my second shaman arena deck in a row with 0 board clears.

[MrHat]

Just got my second shaman arena deck in a row with 0 board clears.

I was loving the randomness of the Arena, to the tune of a cup of coffee a day ($2/per).  But with my recent spat of 'bad luck', I'm back to every few days knocking some quests/ranked and hopefully getting gold.

[Ingmar]

The difference you guys are arguing in 2 simple lines:

Hearthstone: Card access > luck > matchup > skill
Magic: Card access > skill = matchup > luck

All the things are a factor in both games, but Hearthstone is just not complicated enough for skill to be a big enough factor to outweigh luck. So yes, better players will win more often than bad ones, because it's still a minor factor, but all those other things tend to have more impact on any given game.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I don't think hearthstone would be hard to fix however.  Arena building needs work but simply adding more cards with maybe an extra rule or two would go a long way to adding more skill to decks.

[Ironwood]

Blockers.

[Slayerik]

I think sometimes people get too heavy on spreadsheets and stuff when drafting. What I have been doing is trying to take my first good rare/epic/legendary and building a deck around it. If you just take a bunch of good cards, many times your deck will be lacking in speed, card draw, removal, whatever. Have a concept for your deck....speed, Mid-game, or late game control. Build around the concept when you can.

I think the main thing to look at in cards is' can I kill 2 cards for one', or summon something that requires 2 cards to get rid of. Chillwind Yeti is a great card, usually causing a 2 for 1 trade. But you also need to look at your deck and see if you have 14 other 4 cost dudes. My general rule is:

Board clear > direct removal > card advantage > ass kickers > card draw > tricks > Taunters >

I was in a position where I could take Bloodsail raiders (comes into play +attack = your weapon attack) and the dread corsairs early, but I hadnt drawn any weapons up to that point. I took a risk that paid off, as two truesilvers and a lights justice came, and won we a couple matches....had they not, I woulda been pretty screwed. Risk/reward stuff

Maybe your mulliganing is bad... The only time I keep anything over 4 is if it is truly a game changer. Other than that you want 1-3 drops so you can maintain control early, most the time.

[Trippy]

I don't think hearthstone would be hard to fix however.  Arena building needs work but simply adding more cards with maybe an extra rule or two would go a long way to adding more skill to decks.

Combat would have to fundamentally change.

[Ingmar]

One change they could make tomorrow that would have a large positive impact is everyone seeing the same assortment of rarities in every Arena draft.

Another easy one would be, draft 40 cards, build with 30.

[Rokal]

I'd love to see both of those ideas implemented.

[schild]

That would hamper a child's ability to win. Adding more decisions to the tree adds more complexity than you think.

What they could do is nothing. Stick with what they have. Make a shitload of money in the short term, having made a better gateway drug to Magic than Yugioh or Pokemon. Because let's be honest, the bar was pretty fucking low on the entry level for CCGs.

[Rasix]

High enough that some have never bothered until now.    I still don't think I'll ever try Magic unless my son gets into it.  Hex is a possibility if it's ever close to what they promised.

I could continue to play this casually (without spending money) for some time. I haven't much lately due to some bad arena runs and Diablo 3 being interesting again.   

[Fordel]

The best thing about Yugioh is getting to say AND YOU'VE FALLEN FOR MY TRAP CARD BWHAHAHAHAHA.

[schild]

The best thing about Yugioh is getting to say AND YOU'VE FALLEN FOR MY TRAP CARD BWHAHAHAHAHA.

People say that in every game.

Source: I've said it and have never actually played YuGiOh despite knowing how. My old eyes can't read the text on cards.

[Fordel]

You need a 8 year old nephew then! Then you'll get to play all the Yugioh you could ever want.