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Author Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice  (Read 282978 times)
Evildrider
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Reply #1225 on: March 30, 2016, 05:33:30 PM

So, finally got around to watching this after work.  Pretty much  anything I want to say about it has already been said, but honestly, I sincerely hope that whoever in DC is responsible for giving Warner the rights to their movies gets promptly fired, and then beaten to death with stacks of DC comics.  Cause watching this this thing was like watching someone systematically destroy something you ejoyed right in front of you.   I swear, if anyone responsible for this movie actually read a DC comic pretaning to either of the main characters, it would be a goddamned miracle.
Nobody is getting fired over this since you assholes are giving them money hand over fist.
They got no money from me.  I work at a movie theatre.  I get to watch  this shit for free.

Still sounds like you got ripped off.   awesome, for real
Khaldun
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Reply #1226 on: March 30, 2016, 05:50:35 PM

I think this has been said before in the interminable discussions on this site of Superman as a character. He is not, never interesting unless he's given something to choose over. Save mom or save Lois. Save Metropolis or save Peoria. Save a woman who is being beaten by her husband or a person being attacked by a terrorist. Those are interesting problems as long as you don't say, "Fix this by taking authoritarian power and fixing everything". Every good iteration of the Superman character (including some that are all but him in name like Samaritan in Astro City) are riffing off this problem. What would create a funnel that makes it so you can't fix everything, or save everyone, that doesn't turn out to be purely tragic, that doesn't make the character a failure?
Evildrider
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Reply #1227 on: March 30, 2016, 07:39:32 PM

So apparently Affleck's contract only obligates him to do Justice League 1 and 2 and doesn't have anything about a stand alone Batman movie.  Word is he has a script finished for a Batman movie, but the question is... after the way BvS got raped by critics will he just ride out his contract and leave?  If he's gonna be under Snyder's thumb I think he may, even though this is said to be a dream role for him.
Abagadro
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Reply #1228 on: March 30, 2016, 09:35:08 PM

He wants to direct it too.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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BobtheSomething
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Reply #1229 on: March 30, 2016, 10:45:32 PM

He wants to direct it too.

I'd watch that.
Margalis
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Reply #1230 on: March 30, 2016, 11:09:21 PM

Quote
Can someone clue me in on exactly what happened in the one dream sequence Wayne has, where you get a vision of him in an "other-world" type setting, where Superman has his own personal army. 

The worst thing in many of these newer superhero movies is how much they feel the need to set up future movies in very inorganic fashion.

I've always thought the idea of setting up sequels is silly to begin with - if you make a hit movie that people like they'll be interested in a sequel, even if you don't tease sequel plot threads in the movie. But these super hero movies now don't just have occasional teases, they have significant chunks devoted to tangents that have nothing to do with the movie you're watching.

I read some reviews of Age of Ultron that said "the best part of the movie is how it sets up future movies like Civil War and Thor: Ragnarok". What? The best part of the movie is that it teases another movie?

The more you tease future movies the worse the current movie gets, so it's a cycle of "boy this movie sucked, but the next one sure looks great!" Both Marvel and WB would be better off making good movies, rather than setting up future movies.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Ironwood
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Reply #1231 on: March 31, 2016, 01:54:16 AM

I read some reviews of Age of Ultron that said "the best part of the movie is how it sets up future movies like Civil War and Thor: Ragnarok". What? The best part of the movie is that it teases another movie?

That reviewer is a fucking moron then.  Enough said, really.

The best part of the movie was the way Spader delivered the line 'Oh For Gods Sake' as The Hulk threw him out the Quinjet.


"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
jgsugden
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Reply #1232 on: March 31, 2016, 07:36:12 AM

Why do we assume a tease can't be executed well? I think it is about as hard to execute as a good season finale cliffhanger - which is rare, but when done well can be amazing. This just sounds like crappy execution.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #1233 on: March 31, 2016, 09:54:56 AM

Of course. But the idea that a tease could be the major attraction or pleasure of a film or episode seems to me intrinsically crappy. If there is nothing fun or excellent in the thing you are watching now, save for the promise of something you will get to watch later, that is a failure. It's like a bad MMO. "I know the levelling experience now in this place is really boring, but once you level up you'll be able to have a different levelling experience somewhere else! So keep going!"
jgsugden
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Reply #1234 on: March 31, 2016, 10:44:57 AM

A tease can be *A* significant attraction or pleasure of a film.  It can't be *THE*. 

I can imagine a BvS film where I walked out amazed at the story, the characterizations, and the teases of what is to come when Darkseid finally arrives.  However, it doesn't seem like this film has any chance to be that film... and I have to stretch my imagination to conceive of such a film.  The DCU characters are so much harder than Marvel to put on film.  They are so dated, have so many abilities, are so powerful, have so many 'cosmic' origin elements, etc... that making relatable characters that we can get behind in 150 minutes is very, very hard even when you don't make all the wrong choices.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Threash
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Reply #1235 on: March 31, 2016, 11:11:23 AM

TV seems to be doing a pretty decent job.

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jgsugden
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Reply #1236 on: March 31, 2016, 11:57:58 AM

TV seems to be doing a pretty decent job.
Yeah - but they have more than 150 minutes.  The link to the Superman story Furiously posted a few posts up is a great example of something you could do on a Superman TV show that would be very hard to pull off in a movie due to time constraints.  Marvel manages to do some of this type of stuff, but the amount of it in Captain America MCU action is much less than in Captain America comics.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
HaemishM
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Reply #1237 on: March 31, 2016, 12:11:34 PM

There is nothing fundamentally harder to pull off about Superman or Batman on film than any other character - in fact, it should be easier since the iconic status of the characters makes certain explanations unnecessary. I mean, Iron Man had to be explained because only comics nerds really knew him. Fuck's sake, THOR of all characters had zero iconic status other than from mythology and there's a huge leap between the mythological Thor and what the MCU has done with him. Goddamn Ant-Man or Guardians of the Galaxy even... nothing about those characters was even remotely known by the general public before the trailers.

The only fundamental difference is Marvel has good creators working on their stuff and DC has Zack Snyder and David Goyer, King McFucksticks of the Superheroes are Dumb school of thought.

TheWalrus
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Reply #1238 on: March 31, 2016, 12:25:39 PM

Speaking as someone who loves superheroes, but has never picked up a comic book, (thanks mom n dad) the difference for me is the obvious care between the two divisions. Marvel people, though getting some of the comic translation wrong, clearly love the characters and story. The DC stuff is just watered down crap in comparison. (Though part of me would like to see a Batman movie where the villian is in Hollywood doing movies about Batman making him watch his parents die over and over. Comedy!)

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Evildrider
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Reply #1239 on: March 31, 2016, 12:31:39 PM

Blame Goyer.  That dude is a fuckstick of the highest caliber.
Ironwood
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Reply #1240 on: March 31, 2016, 01:44:39 PM

There is nothing fundamentally harder to pull off about Superman or Batman on film than any other character - in fact, it should be easier since the iconic status of the characters makes certain explanations unnecessary. I mean, Iron Man had to be explained because only comics nerds really knew him. Fuck's sake, THOR of all characters had zero iconic status other than from mythology and there's a huge leap between the mythological Thor and what the MCU has done with him. Goddamn Ant-Man or Guardians of the Galaxy even... nothing about those characters was even remotely known by the general public before the trailers.

The only fundamental difference is Marvel has good creators working on their stuff and DC has Zack Snyder and David Goyer, King McFucksticks of the Superheroes are Dumb school of thought.

Just in case anyone missed this post !!!

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jgsugden
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Reply #1241 on: March 31, 2016, 02:36:15 PM

There is nothing fundamentally harder to pull off about Superman or Batman on film than any other character - in fact, it should be easier since the iconic status of the characters makes certain explanations unnecessary...
We've had this discussion.  Go back if you want to reread all the reasons why DC, as a universe, is harder than Marvel to put on film.  Nothing has changed. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Ironwood
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Reply #1242 on: March 31, 2016, 02:37:19 PM

We've had this discussion ?  Really ?

'Cause I have issues with the conclusion.  Especially considering we, you know, had good Batman and Superman movies ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
eldaec
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Reply #1243 on: March 31, 2016, 02:46:40 PM

Good superman movies, plural?

But yeah, hire a decent writer and director and any issue around how terribly hard it is to make a Batman film goes away.

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HaemishM
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Reply #1244 on: March 31, 2016, 02:59:18 PM

Superman may be a little harder, but that's only if you assume that "Truth, Justice and the American Way from a nigh-indestructible alien" is a bad premise. If you make that assumption, you have a fundamental problem with Superman as a character and shouldn't ever be writing him. That's who the character is and there's nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, other than the indestructible alien part, that's EXACTLY what people always said about Captain America as a reason for not liking the character. And yet, the two Cap movies are some of the best. Good actor, really good screenplays and good directors made that character one of the most popular. They started with the assumption that there's nothing wrong with this character other than anachronisms.

Superman, OTOH, has been treated by Synder as his version of Dr. Manhattan. And he and Goyer have no idea what to do with that other than make him moody, distant and unrelatable. And they started with the idea that "Clark Kent is a stupid mask that everyone should see through" and as a result, their Clark Kent has no personality, no morals, no ethics and no empathy. The difference is literally night and day with Christopher Reeves' Clark/Superman because he does both characters extremely well. For all its flaws, Superman 1 & 2 really nailed what makes that character great. Superman 2 and the fights with Zod were EPIC despite the effects being from the '80's and the rest of the movie deals with all the weighty topics Superman can without resorting to drab, dreary, cynical shit.

jgsugden
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Reply #1245 on: March 31, 2016, 03:38:48 PM

We've had this discussion ?  Really ?

'Cause I have issues with the conclusion.  Especially considering we, you know, had good Batman and Superman movies ?

Yes.  We mentioned that Batman (and Green Arrow - pretty much all Street Level DC) is an exception, but that the majority of the DC universe has power levels that far exceed Marvel (which is more difficult to put on film and make reasonable - see the powering down of Thor and Hulk from comic to film - two of the most powerful Marvel characters who are a fraction of the power levels of Superman), DC characters were made earlier in time and have far more outlandish elements, and they don't contain the humanizing elements that were a hallmark of Stan Lee and Marvel.  There are a lot of 'scholarly' articles and books written on the differences between DC and Marvel - and a lot of them address why Marvel is easier to move to film media. 

And the first Superman movie was good for the time, but does not hold up to modern standards.  Compare Winter Soldier and Superman I.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
TheWalrus
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Reply #1246 on: March 31, 2016, 03:57:26 PM


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Ironwood
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Reply #1247 on: March 31, 2016, 03:58:10 PM

lol

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jgsugden
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Reply #1248 on: March 31, 2016, 08:16:28 PM

Honestly... That I would see.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
NowhereMan
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Reply #1249 on: April 01, 2016, 03:20:50 AM


Yes.  We mentioned that Batman (and Green Arrow - pretty much all Street Level DC) is an exception, but that the majority of the DC universe has power levels that far exceed Marvel (which is more difficult to put on film and make reasonable - see the powering down of Thor and Hulk from comic to film - two of the most powerful Marvel characters who are a fraction of the power levels of Superman), DC characters were made earlier in time and have far more outlandish elements, and they don't contain the humanizing elements that were a hallmark of Stan Lee and Marvel.  There are a lot of 'scholarly' articles and books written on the differences between DC and Marvel - and a lot of them address why Marvel is easier to move to film media. 
[/quote]

Thing is that starts out with the assumption that the movie creator wants to take the comic character as is and just transplant them into film. In the same post where you mention how Marvel altered their characters to get their power levels to better fit the MCU. swamp poop They didn't take the comic character to put in the movies though, the DC team deliberately took what you argue is the least film friendly aspect of the character (his power level) and decided to frame their character around that. That's what people mean when they say Snyder and Goyer don't like or care about the characters, they see heroes as power sets and seek to put those powers into 'real life' and craft a character they think would arise out of that.

Superman as an isolated and lonely figure, fundamentally separate from humanity is a potentially interesting theme of the character but it only works as an enjoyable element when combined with believable empathy and connection. You can't base an origin story around that (which was a major focus of this Superman's origin movie) because it starts off making the character unrelatable. You concentrate on the aspects of the character that really define it, 12 year old boys think of superman as his powerset, for anyone vaguely adult he's the quintessential superhero do-gooder type. DC is only more difficult to adapt to film if effects are a challenge (and based on the existing movies, that is far from the issue) or the writers are utterly incapable of writing a character with any depth or humanity.

If Marvel had given Snyder and Goyer Cap II we would have had 30 minutes of Cap being isolated and moody, probably acting racist and homophobic (because he's from the 1940's and that's how people were then) followed by 90 minutes of Hydra assassinating people in SHIELD, Cap torturing suspected Hydra agents, the Helicarriers devastating several US cities and anihilating huge swathe of SHIELD and US military personnel before Cap blew the final one up and rode it into the Twin Towers. Also everything would have been grey. I guess then you could come in and tell us that Captain America as a character is just more difficult to handle than Iron Man because he's old fashioned and doesn't translate well to modern sensibilities what with being created for WWII.

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Mac
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Reply #1250 on: April 01, 2016, 03:27:58 AM

Friend demands I go see this with him (he made me go to all the Transformer movies). Is the movie really bad or is it comicbook neckbeards complaining?

 I'm sort of getting tired of all this superhero shit and I might just go see this on shrooms or something.


« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 03:29:47 AM by Mac »
Ironwood
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Reply #1251 on: April 01, 2016, 03:31:37 AM

Yeah, sorry JG, but you're talking mince.

You can't say that 'DC is harder to do except when Marvel had the same issue and changed things to make it easier to do and was kinda massively successful'.  Well, you can say it, of course.

But then you'd sound like a right cock.


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eldaec
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Reply #1252 on: April 01, 2016, 04:27:00 AM

Batman aside you have to change more stuff to do DC. But it is nothing a halfway capable writer should have difficulty with.

If they concentrate on making a good film they can take any liberty they want with the characters and stories. The value of the IP is name recognition not literary content.

I'd happily watch a good Dr Manhattan film rebranded as Superman. I give no fucks about the lore so long as you set my expectations going in.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 04:30:09 AM by eldaec »

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Threash
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Reply #1253 on: April 01, 2016, 06:30:50 AM

Friend demands I go see this with him (he made me go to all the Transformer movies). Is the movie really bad or is it comicbook neckbeards complaining?

 I'm sort of getting tired of all this superhero shit and I might just go see this on shrooms or something.




It's not as bad as the complaints make it seem.  Its just super mediocre when by all rights it could have been good.

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jgsugden
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Reply #1254 on: April 01, 2016, 07:42:58 AM

It is like you folks never learned to read.  I have addressed all those points over and over.   You can think I have no idea what it takes to make a good comic movie (although when I go back and look at my opinions over the past several years and see how my predictions played out...) but how about what Joss Whedon thinks?

http://www.firstshowing.net/2009/joss-whedon-explains-why-dc-comics-movies-dont-work/

Nah, he must be clueless, too.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #1255 on: April 01, 2016, 08:00:53 AM

Sure, Whedon could be wrong. He sometimes has been, even.

But also, let's get a bit of a grip here. It's not as if "DC comics properties are harder to make into movies" is a proposition like "At 32 degrees Fahrenheit, water freezes". It's an opinion! It can be defended or disagreed with but it's not something to get all ragey about as if any view on that assertion is QED.

I do think there's a long history of people saying that a particular novel or other prior work (in all sorts of genres) simply cannot be adapted into a successful film and discovering that they were wrong later on when a smart director or scriptwriter figured out a way. Equally I think there's a long history of people saying that a particular novel or other prior work was naturally suited for adaptation and discovering they were wrong because a bad adaptation is always possible with the right lack of talent or insight. That says nothing about whether some things are really or genuinely hard-mode for adaptation and other things easy, but it does suggest that everyone with an opinion on that subject might want to lug around some grains of salt.
HaemishM
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Reply #1256 on: April 01, 2016, 08:03:12 AM

Friend demands I go see this with him (he made me go to all the Transformer movies). Is the movie really bad or is it comicbook neckbeards complaining?

It's not the comic neckbeard complaining - more like film school student neckbeard level of complaints. The problems with this movie aren't that it's a comic book movie, it's that it is a badly executed, badly written, expensive mess that fails at almost all facets of film making and is only saved from MST3K levels of derision because the characters are iconic and the budget keeps it from looking like Manos: The Hands of Fate.

Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #1257 on: April 01, 2016, 08:11:58 AM

Didn't read the link but does Whedon also explain why avengers two was a mess?

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Ironwood
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Reply #1258 on: April 01, 2016, 08:24:23 AM

It is like you folks never learned to read.  I have addressed all those points over and over.   You can think I have no idea what it takes to make a good comic movie (although when I go back and look at my opinions over the past several years and see how my predictions played out...) but how about what Joss Whedon thinks?

http://www.firstshowing.net/2009/joss-whedon-explains-why-dc-comics-movies-dont-work/

Nah, he must be clueless, too.

Ok, I've read that ;  yeah, he's clueless too.  That quote is utter wank.


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jgsugden
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Reply #1259 on: April 01, 2016, 08:25:09 AM

Nobody said, "cannot be adapted".  I, personally, said harder to adapt.  This is an opinion in the same way that one might have the opinion that 50 lbs of rocks feels heavier than 5 lbs of rocks.  

However, I am not NOT saying that DC couldn't have the right people with the right approach nail a DU that worked.  I even proposed a solution that I'd think had a chance (which I say not to suggest that I know the right way - but merely to note that I would not suggest a plan if I thought no plan would work). I am just saying that it is ridiculously harder.

Didn't read the link but does Whedon also explain why avengers two was a mess?
No, I don't think he did in 2009 explain why a good, but not great, 2015 movie was messed up when he was forced to change elements of his story that he did not want to change.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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