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Author Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice  (Read 96240 times)
Ironwood
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Reply #1260 on: April 01, 2016, 10:25:50 AM

I mean it's not like we've seen movies that dealt with Gods being good before....

Oh wait.  We have.  Fucking tons of them.

Also, American Gods is coming soon !  Not related to the point, but fucking exciting.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Ironwood
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Reply #1261 on: April 01, 2016, 10:28:43 AM

Also, for the triple post, that fucking quote is from 2009.  Get the fuck out of here.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
jgsugden
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Reply #1262 on: April 01, 2016, 11:39:41 AM

Also, for the triple post, that fucking quote is from 2009.  Get the fuck out of here.
Seriously: Why would it make any difference if he'd said it in 2006, 2009 or 2015?

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
NowhereMan
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Reply #1263 on: April 01, 2016, 11:53:11 AM

Ahem

 Ohhhhh, I see."The character Thor is a mythical being from Viking lore who is trapped as a crippled surgeon on earth. It's incredibly difficult to adapt such a character to MCU because you'd have to introduce magic as well as creating the issue of the existence of actual gods and the veracity of Norse mythology. On top of that how do you deal with a character who needs to spend half their time crippled a punishment (enforcing stereotypes of physical disability being some sort of punishment for something). It's just really not an easy task"

 DRILLING AND MANLINESS I am a hyper-advanced alien from a culture your would recognise as that of Norse mythology. I have a giant hammer and can hit things really hard. That is all.

You can make any character difficult to put across properly and all I've seen from the Snyder DC stuff so far is that he either doesn't understand the core of the characters that makes them likeable or he just doesn't like the idea of super heroes. And he's not very good at making movies outside of storyboarding dramatic stuff.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
jgsugden
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Reply #1264 on: April 01, 2016, 12:40:25 PM

If you see no difference between Superman and Thor, I can't help you.

If you can't see that the problem is not about a single character, but about the entire universe of characters (excluding street level so people do not bring up Batman for the 100000th time despite it being well addressed), I can't help you.

I've said all I have to say on this topic. 

What can you tell me about gaming and fun in Charlotte, NC?
Ironwood
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Reply #1265 on: April 01, 2016, 01:43:04 PM

Good.  'Cause you're shit ass wrong.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Evildrider
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Reply #1266 on: April 01, 2016, 01:50:38 PM

Good.  'Cause you're shit ass wrong.


Hutch
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Reply #1267 on: April 01, 2016, 01:56:47 PM

Didn't read the link but does Whedon also explain why avengers two was a mess?

Avengers Age of Ultron (2015)
Written By: Joss Whedon
Directed By: Joss Whedon

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Mac
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Reply #1268 on: April 01, 2016, 02:31:31 PM

Friend demands I go see this with him (he made me go to all the Transformer movies). Is the movie really bad or is it comicbook neckbeards complaining?

 I'm sort of getting tired of all this superhero shit and I might just go see this on shrooms or something.




It's not as bad as the complaints make it seem.  Its just super mediocre when by all rights it could have been good.

Ok, thanks. Mediocre I can handle with just beer.

Evildrider
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Reply #1269 on: April 01, 2016, 02:40:04 PM

Didn't read the link but does Whedon also explain why avengers two was a mess?

Avengers Age of Ultron (2015)
Written By: Joss Whedon
Directed By: Joss Whedon


To be fair Whedon did butt heads with Marvel when it came to cuts and stuff.  Which is why the whole Thor thing seems half assed.
Hutch
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Reply #1270 on: April 01, 2016, 03:11:18 PM

Didn't read the link but does Whedon also explain why avengers two was a mess?

Avengers Age of Ultron (2015)
Written By: Joss Whedon
Directed By: Joss Whedon


To be fair Whedon did butt heads with Marvel when it came to cuts and stuff.  Which is why the whole Thor thing seems half assed.

You're right. I should amend:

Avengers Age of Ultron (2015)
Written By: Joss Whedon
Directed By: Joss Whedon
Kvetched, to anyone who would listen (and especially publish), about the bullies who kidnapped and enslaved him, and then ran roughshod over his vision for the movie: someone whose name rhymes with Foss Kneadon

Plant yourself like a tree
Haven't you noticed? We've been sharing our culture with you all morning.
The sun will shine on us again, brother
Malakili
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Reply #1271 on: April 01, 2016, 05:11:01 PM

Avengers  2 was a mess, but it was a fun mess at least.

And frankly, all this talk about it being hard to make a DC movie. Who cares? It's hard to do lots of things right and we still don't put up with garbage.
Evildrider
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Reply #1272 on: April 01, 2016, 05:46:43 PM

Didn't read the link but does Whedon also explain why avengers two was a mess?

Avengers Age of Ultron (2015)
Written By: Joss Whedon
Directed By: Joss Whedon


To be fair Whedon did butt heads with Marvel when it came to cuts and stuff.  Which is why the whole Thor thing seems half assed.

You're right. I should amend:

Avengers Age of Ultron (2015)
Written By: Joss Whedon
Directed By: Joss Whedon
Kvetched, to anyone who would listen (and especially publish), about the bullies who kidnapped and enslaved him, and then ran roughshod over his vision for the movie: someone whose name rhymes with Foss Kneadon


I am pretty sure Edgar Wright would like to have a word with you about who really controls what at Marvel.  Even if you are the writer and director.  Remember after AoU is when Feige managed to get the "creative committee" ousted and banished to TV only land.
MediumHigh
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Reply #1273 on: April 01, 2016, 06:09:18 PM

Yeah no. You can definitely make these characters compelling

Superman The Animated Series
Justice League
Justice League Unlimited.

It takes good, not half asses writing and understanding of what these characters mean not just how hard they should hit things. Generic DC movie writer can't do it because their too busy rewriting the dark knight returns and masturbating to the watchmen. On an intellectual level they know what these characters are capable of but that's not makes them interesting.

Just fucking let Bruce Tim direct every DC movie being made from now on and call it a day.

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Evildrider
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Reply #1274 on: April 01, 2016, 06:45:29 PM

DC animated has always been better than the live action movies.  Although the switch to the New 52 versions was a mistake imo.
HaemishM
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Reply #1275 on: April 01, 2016, 08:44:40 PM

Even the DC stuff that Bruce Timm didn't have a hand in was good, or at least fuckloads better than BVS. I mean, Brave and the Bold was straight up camp with a serious comic book edge, it had goddamn B'WANA BEAST, for fuck's sake, and it was still miles better than this movie. And it was done in 22 minute chunks, and it set up Justice League.

I'm not even sure it's about competent writing (because Goyer has actually written decent scripts) so much as attitude. Goyer fucking hates superheroes and superhero fans. HATES THEM. He can't relate to the characters or the people who like those characters and it shows. That contempt and distance is in the script and is amplified by a director who clearly cannot make more out of a script than there already is in terms of getting actors to act and staging anything but action scenes.

Margalis
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Reply #1276 on: April 01, 2016, 10:33:35 PM

That Thor to Superman comparison is interesting. I have to agree that Thor is more complicated. He's a god, kind of, he has a magical space bridge, he is a normal person who is like...possessed by the spirit of Thor and can transform into him or some shit...what?

Superman is a super powerful alien who came to earth, and his powers are the most generic super hero powers possible. There's really nothing complicated.

It's also really fucking easy to humanize Superman. He is adopted by earth parents, and grows up loving mom, the flag and apple pie. Oh wait - that's already his story! Spiderman's uncle is killed off and that helps humanize him - well in the new Superman movies his dad is killed off, for basically the same reason. This isn't rocket science. The problem that DC heroes are unrelatable is only maybe a problem if you have a slavish devotion to the comics.

What's hard about Superman is that he's invincible to everything. That's where people run into trouble and need clunky solutions. (Although the solution could be "make him super tough, but not actually invincible")

What's hard about Green Lantern is that his powers are goofy as shit, and it's hard to write about a guy who can do anything he imagines but for some reason only imagines ping pong paddles. So I'll grant that Green Lantern is hard.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 10:39:26 PM by Margalis »

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NowhereMan
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Reply #1277 on: April 02, 2016, 03:13:32 AM


What's hard about Superman is that he's invincible to everything. That's where people run into trouble and need clunky solutions. (Although the solution could be "make him super tough, but not actually invincible")

What's hard about Green Lantern is that his powers are goofy as shit, and it's hard to write about a guy who can do anything he imagines but for some reason only imagines ping pong paddles. So I'll grant that Green Lantern is hard.

That would work with Superman. I've really always considered him basically a wish fulfillment superhero in that he's an everyman who discovers he has incredible powers and uses them to... fight crime and save people. Superman is meant to be what people imagine themselves like with great powers and not in a 'dinner part chat' way but in 'your private moments you don't really believe' kind of way. Confronting people with collateral damage, focusing only on the alienation and inhumanity that may come with those powers doesn't sell that to us, it tears apart why people enjoy Superman and just points at you going, 'Now do you see what it's like you little child? Not so great is it? Where is your god now?'

Green Lantern is doable but it's just a case of ignoring the goofy uses if it's going to be a solo thing. Goofy powers like that can work as occasional bits but not if it's everything a character is doing. What's really challenging is fitting the constructs in with the character, if everything he's doing is goofy then you have to play the character as goofy, which doesn't make for a great protagonist in an action movie generally (Deadpool accepted but the dark murdering all the time helps tone it down). Green Lantern also has the magical plot macguffin of 'Willpower' so he can be as weak or powerful as the writer wants him to be and has the perfect excuse for power ups in dangerous situation thing.

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Margalis
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Reply #1278 on: April 02, 2016, 07:29:39 AM

Another issue with Green Lantern is that his powers not only have to almost necessarily be goofy CGI shit, they have to be goofy neon green CGI shit. Visually it's getting into The Mask territory.

Maybe I just hate Green Lantern. I've always thought that pretty much everything about him is dumb as hell.

Quote
That would work with Superman. I've really always considered him basically a wish fulfillment superhero in that he's an everyman who discovers he has incredible powers and uses them to... fight crime and save people.

In a way it's like Harry Potter, but instead of "you're a wizard Harry" it's "you're an alien."

I think superman can be used well in two ways. As a main character that way works - he is a great guy who also has superpowers and uses them to help people. He can also work as a side character to contrast against others. Portrayals that make him seem like more of a god, a story where a mediocre super hero struggles with not being perfect like superman, etc.

The Snyder movies kind of split the difference.

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Khaldun
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Reply #1279 on: April 02, 2016, 08:06:27 AM

I think that's generally right--Superman is a more interesting team player/straight man than a solo character. Often the same for Captain America, actually--when you have a guy who is stipulated to be the basically decent, right-choosing, middle-American guy when he's played to his usual image, it's hard to give him a dramatic arc.
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Reply #1280 on: April 02, 2016, 09:18:54 AM

I think that's generally right--Superman is a more interesting team player/straight man than a solo character. Often the same for Captain America, actually--when you have a guy who is stipulated to be the basically decent, right-choosing, middle-American guy when he's played to his usual image, it's hard to give him a dramatic arc.

Superman TAS.

Its all about not making him a god. Let him get as much as he gives. Show that he actually cares about people as people not as a alien god who takes pity on us peons.

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Jeff Kelly
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Reply #1281 on: April 02, 2016, 10:01:15 AM

Superman is basically a paladin and no one wants a paladin in his group.
Malakili
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Reply #1282 on: April 02, 2016, 10:27:23 AM

Except they've decided to play him as an emo paladin in this iteration of the DC movies, which is the whole problem.
HaemishM
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Reply #1283 on: April 02, 2016, 03:29:49 PM

Supergirl has roughly the same power level as Superman, and yet the TV show (as cringeworthy as it can be sometimes) does a remarkably good job of showing that power level without making her unbeatable. It also manages to give her emotional depth beyond just her feelings of inadequacy in the light of being Superman's cousin. It does just about everything MOS/BVS has failed to do with the character with less budget, on a weekly timetable with TV actors and various directors and screenwriters. It really is just all about the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the talent in charge.

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Reply #1284 on: April 02, 2016, 11:40:28 PM

Supergirl has roughly the same power level as Superman, and yet the TV show (as cringeworthy as it can be sometimes) does a remarkably good job of showing that power level without making her unbeatable. It also manages to give her emotional depth beyond just her feelings of inadequacy in the light of being Superman's cousin. It does just about everything MOS/BVS has failed to do with the character with less budget, on a weekly timetable with TV actors and various directors and screenwriters. It really is just all about the capabilities (or lack thereof) of the talent in charge.

It helps that 1/2 the show focuses on her non-superhero life and her struggle to fit in and help her friends and family. Not on her ability to flatten a city.

Hutch
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Reply #1285 on: April 03, 2016, 09:19:24 AM


I am pretty sure Edgar Wright would like to have a word with you about who really controls what at Marvel.  Even if you are the writer and director.  Remember after AoU is when Feige managed to get the "creative committee" ousted and banished to TV only land.

What I'm saying is that Whedon took their money, and then bitched and blame-shifted, in public, about the state of the end product. Maybe Edgar Wright would like to have a word with me, although I'm not even a pretend journalist, so probably not.

Since you bring up Wright, I thought that Ant-Man was a better movie overall. Was this because Ant-Man had a dozen fewer characters to write for? Was it because Wright's original vision was simply better? Was it because the writers and director who finished the movie somehow found a way to cooperate with the big bullies at Marvel?

Who can say? If we lived in the MCU, maybe we could invent a machine to view alternate timelines.

edit: his name is not spelled "EdgeGear"
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 09:22:19 AM by Hutch »

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kaid
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Reply #1286 on: April 05, 2016, 02:39:31 PM

Another issue with Green Lantern is that his powers not only have to almost necessarily be goofy CGI shit, they have to be goofy neon green CGI shit. Visually it's getting into The Mask territory.

Maybe I just hate Green Lantern. I've always thought that pretty much everything about him is dumb as hell.

Quote
That would work with Superman. I've really always considered him basically a wish fulfillment superhero in that he's an everyman who discovers he has incredible powers and uses them to... fight crime and save people.

In a way it's like Harry Potter, but instead of "you're a wizard Harry" it's "you're an alien."

I think superman can be used well in two ways. As a main character that way works - he is a great guy who also has superpowers and uses them to help people. He can also work as a side character to contrast against others. Portrayals that make him seem like more of a god, a story where a mediocre super hero struggles with not being perfect like superman, etc.

The Snyder movies kind of split the difference.


I actually thought the last green lantern movie pretty much was about as good as green lantern will ever get. Guy whose power is his imagination and in general comic book cannon he has the imagination of a 12 year old. So having giant glowing green neon shitty CGI looking constructs is pretty much true to the source material.
Sir T
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Reply #1287 on: April 06, 2016, 11:13:13 AM

Plus the Green Lantern character has in most cases been a dumb immature asshole that the audience is supposed to be mostly rooting against, so "being true to the comic" would be commercial suicide.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
jgsugden
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Reply #1288 on: April 06, 2016, 12:08:35 PM

Plus the Green Lantern character has in most cases been a dumb immature asshole that the audience is supposed to be mostly rooting against, so "being true to the comic" would be commercial suicide.
Hal Jordan was originally a cocky jerk, but I would not call him immature. As I understand it, that is a more recent development.  Tony Stark was the dumb immature party heavy asshole that was designed to be a character the audience should hate -  a weapons manufacturer pretty boy in that era? The Downey version is different than the original, but it shows that an otherwise unlikely character with Charisma can be well received.

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Khaldun
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Reply #1289 on: April 06, 2016, 08:06:05 PM

Stark was a bland character with not particularly interesting motivations for his first 100 + issues. He was a weapons designer, but Stan Lee was at his most aggressively anti-Communist agit-prop in writing that part of Stark--there was not even the remotest hint of there being anything wrong about it. He visited Vietnam as a heroic weapons designer, got wounded by the Commies, worked with a fellow scientist to secretly build the armor and escape so he could go on building weapons to crush the yellow peril Commies. He wasn't even particularly a playboy at first--he pined for his secretary, was painfully earnest, did a lot of anti-Commie stuff for SHIELD in particular, and whined endlessly about his wounded heart and his breastplate and will-I-be-normal again. Somewhere about five or six years in, he started getting more flamboyant and playful, but he still had reversions to being Very Serious Industrialist. When the Marvel writers decided to have him stop making munitions, it became a big deal that created tons of controversy.

Hal Jordan was originally just bland, honestly. A fighter jock, but he was a fighter jock in the era when that was played straight--patriotic, upstanding, courageous guy. He was straight out of the Mercury 7 propaganda. Again, it wasn't until much later that this got any kind of dimensionality to it.

This is true for most superheroes, even Marvel ones. The only characters who had some real dimensionality from day one that's stayed with them is Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four. (guilty teenager; bickering family).  Edit: ok, also Dr. Strange: guilt-ridden adult who has found new spiritual meaning. Everybody else in the Marvel canon has travelled pretty far from their beginnings, even if you can see vague hints of it early on.
Threash
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Reply #1290 on: April 06, 2016, 09:08:50 PM

Cept for the black ones, who all start as criminals.

I am the .00000001428%
Sir T
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Reply #1291 on: April 08, 2016, 01:25:32 PM

So, anyone for a good conspiracy theory?

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/2/11348262/batman-v-superman-conspiracy-critics

Quote
Popularity has nothing to do with quality. There are plenty of movies, like Michael Bay's Transformers franchise, that haul in mountains of money but are still pretty awful. I don't think Batman v Superman is Michael Bay-level bad, nor do I think the piles of money it's earned so far necessarily prove critics were wrong about its many plot holes, the flaws in its editing, or director Zack Snyder's shortcomings.

But what's fascinated me about the collective response to Batman v Superman is how deeply invested fans have become in its success and just how far fans will go to convince themselves that critics have unfairly targeted their movie for doom.

Some fans of Batman v Superman believe Marvel paid journalists to write bad reviews

Batman v Superman is a DC Comics/Warner Bros. property, and the best conspiracy theory currently floating around online is that film critics were paid by Marvel, the biggest company in comics, to trash the movie. If you look at the comments accompanying certain reviews or survey fans' posts about Batman v Superman on social media, you'll find many fans who wholeheartedly believe this is the case.

BuzzFeed and the Daily Dot have both compiled great collections of these responses.


(Twitter via BuzzFeed)

What's the going rate for a bad review? What, exactly, does Marvel stand to gain from Batman v Superman getting a poor review? Doesn't Marvel have anything better to do? The conspiracy theorists don't answer any of these questions.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Mac
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Reply #1292 on: April 13, 2016, 12:59:15 PM

Saw it yesterday, this wasn't bad at all.

It was mediocre, but so was Age of Ultron.

SurfD
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Reply #1293 on: April 13, 2016, 08:34:42 PM

So,  appearently Warner has greenlit the Affleck directed Batman movie

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
BobtheSomething
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Reply #1294 on: April 13, 2016, 09:30:48 PM

So,  appearently Warner has greenlit the Affleck directed Batman movie

What took them so long?
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