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Author Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice  (Read 283014 times)
Tannhauser
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Reply #910 on: July 13, 2015, 04:17:02 AM

Indeed.
Grin

I like Zach Snynder movies.  Yeah I said it.  300 was great, Watchmen was great, ok Suckerpunch was bad.  MoS was good in spots, bad in others.  I like his visual style.  He's not doing "Pride and Prejudice and Superpowers", he's making good summer popcorn action films.

As for BvS, I'll withhold final judgement, but I suspect it will be like MoS with cool action and a suspect script.  David S. Goyer.  He and Lindelhof should get a room.  In hell.
Rishathra
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Reply #911 on: July 13, 2015, 05:44:43 AM

As far as this trailer seems to indicate at least, I like that it looks to address the issues brought up by MoS, like how people might not be thrilled that an alien just helped trash a major city.

Another theme continued from the previous movie - apparently BOTH Kents are horrible parents with shit messages for their kid.  "Be a good person... or not.  It doesn't matter.  You don't owe this world anything."  I'll give Superman some credit that he actually had a 'WTF Mom?!' look on his face there.

I'm definitely digging Affleck as Wayne.  Not sure about Batman, but I think that's more because the suit is kind of shitty.

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eldaec
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Reply #912 on: July 13, 2015, 06:31:58 AM

Indeed.
Grin

I like Zach Snynder movies.  Yeah I said it.  300 was great, Watchmen was great, ok Suckerpunch was bad.  MoS was good in spots, bad in others.  I like his visual style.  He's not doing "Pride and Prejudice and Superpowers", he's making good summer popcorn action films.

I don't even understand this.

MoS works even less well if you aren't giving credit for artistic effort. I actually like the idea of the Kents being not amazing, and superman having to deal with collateral damage - with my beret on this was only unwatchable because it was badly written and badly shot by someone incapable of making flawed humans relatable.

OTOH purely as an action movie it was just overlong and boring.

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Khaldun
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Reply #913 on: July 13, 2015, 07:48:08 AM

The problem with just acknowledging the criticism (people are angry at Superman for destroying much of Metropolis! Grimdark realism!) is that it both misses the point of the criticism (most people were saying, 'Look, this character just doesn't throw skyscrapers at his enemies or ignore people dying all around him, you missed the point of the character') and it's not a sustainable line of plot development for any superhero film unless it wants to go all the way to the Watchmen/Miracleman boundary of the genre. E.g., the more you emphasize the 'realism' of having people angry with Superman and Zod for battling in the the middle of a city, the more you use 9/11 as a visual comparison, the more you make it impossible to enjoy the 'popcorn action' and the less plausible it becomes that these characters are 'superheroes' in any way that invokes comics as a genre or form.

Snyder et al want their cake and eat it too on this point. Think of how batshit crazy the American government and a strong majority of its people went when *one* building was destroyed and another damaged by terrorism. If two near-gods destroyed much of a city in the course of an alien attack, the whole planet would be irrevocably changed in fundamental ways, and there is absolutely no way that anybody would in their right mind be thinking about Superman as a warm, fuzzy guy who saves people from drowning and cats from trees. Pro-Superman people would be like John Yoo or Dick Cheney, in all likelihood, except without the nationalism (since Supes pointedly declined to work with the US government at the end of Man of Steel). I guess that's what all the fascist weirdos bowing to Superman in the trailer are probably about, but that's the point--if you're going to go Watchman, go all the way Watchman, go "Justice Lords" or "Injustice". Don't stop in a kind of queasy middle.
Ironwood
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Reply #914 on: July 13, 2015, 08:03:18 AM

The alternative, of course, being Superman as 'Pet'.  As you saw in TDKR.  Which is what fundamentally bothers me about this film;  It seems to be drawing the main inspiration from the fight scene in that book, but misses the entire point of what the fight was actually about.  It wasn't about two Superheroes going at each other, it was a larger point about how fundamentally unworkable as heroes this fucking pair were.  One was a Psychotic and the other was a trained Alien that Reagan kept as a pet.

And now, we've got what ?  Batman pissed off at 9/11 and Superman.... What exactly ?  After Man of Steel, what the fuck IS he anymore, apart from a cataclysmic plot mess ?

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Merusk
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Reply #915 on: July 13, 2015, 08:45:45 AM

Uh.. point of order, Four Buildings were destroyed on 9/11 not one. WTC1, 2, 3 and 5. I can understand missing 3 and 5 but wtf mate on combining 1 & 2.

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Khaldun
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Reply #916 on: July 13, 2015, 08:49:28 AM

Four buildings. Thanks. That has a major effect on the point I was making.
HaemishM
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Reply #917 on: July 13, 2015, 09:17:58 AM

I liked Man of Steel in the theaters, and I thought they got the spectacle of 2 super-powered beings going at it down. I really liked Amy Adams portrayal of Lois Lane, and I liked Kevin Costner as Pa Kent (though even in the theater thought his death was wasteful). The part I really hated was killing Zod SPOILER!!!!

Then I watched it again a few months ago. It did not hold up well. It suffered from comparison to any of the Marvel movies - it's just not as good, not as coherent and really focuses way too much on gritty naturalist style. I think that grimdark naturalism is really lost on the DC characters other than Batman. This looks to double down on it and I think it's going to hurt the whole brand.

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Reply #918 on: July 13, 2015, 01:13:33 PM

I'm sure the epic team-up at the end will be what causes Luthor to lose his hair and thus turns him irredeemably evil.

Having read the original origin, this made me chuckle.  Good job.  I always thought hair loss was a crap reason to become a villain.

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Tannhauser
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Reply #919 on: July 13, 2015, 01:54:31 PM

I'm sure the epic team-up at the end will be what causes Luthor to lose his hair and thus turns him irredeemably evil.

Having read the original origin, this made me chuckle.  Good job.  I always thought hair loss was a crap reason to become a villain.

Not at all, it's happening to Donald Trump.
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Reply #920 on: July 13, 2015, 01:58:13 PM

What I took from the trailer was go see Deadpool.

Malakili
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Reply #921 on: July 13, 2015, 03:45:37 PM

...really focuses way too much on gritty naturalist style. I think that grimdark naturalism is really lost on the DC characters other than Batman. This looks to double down on it and I think it's going to hurt the whole brand.

Yeah, Superman just doesn't make a great brooding hero fighting to the death in scenes with most of the color washed out.  I don't have the faintest idea why someone thought that would work.

Did someone already post this in this thread? Hell, maybe I did.  Whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gd3vpgJwlM
MediumHigh
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Reply #922 on: July 13, 2015, 08:28:08 PM

The problem with Superman Man of Steel was

A. Too little superman
B. Superman sticks out like a bright neon sign in his own world. Everyone else is some variation of washed out grey, dirty white, or storm cloud black.
C. Everything that doesn't involve superman punching shit serves no purpose. Lios Lane not needed. The 30 minute mini movie about Kyrpoton, not needed. His smallvile backstory also not needed. No part of that movie gives me a reason not to fall asleep beyond seeing the super people wreck shit. And thats a shame AND a problem.
D. Lios Lane. Why.

What I see wrong with the new trailer...

Wonder Woman...why...
Evildrider
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Reply #923 on: July 13, 2015, 08:35:09 PM

What I took from the trailer was go see Deadpool.

Deadpool and the new X-Men look good so far.  I am just don't care enough about Fantastic Four atm.
Sir T
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Reply #924 on: July 14, 2015, 05:03:21 AM

The alternative, of course, being Superman as 'Pet'.  As you saw in TDKR.  Which is what fundamentally bothers me about this film;  It seems to be drawing the main inspiration from the fight scene in that book, but misses the entire point of what the fight was actually about.  It wasn't about two Superheroes going at each other, it was a larger point about how fundamentally unworkable as heroes this fucking pair were.  One was a Psychotic and the other was a trained Alien that Reagan kept as a pet.

And now, we've got what ?  Batman pissed off at 9/11 and Superman.... What exactly ?  After Man of Steel, what the fuck IS he anymore, apart from a cataclysmic plot mess ?


That was done very welll in the animated adaption of TDKR. Which frankly was made much more ambiguous in this remake as it was made by someone who wasn't Millar who was pretty much into the "oh it takes courage to do the right thing even if its the bad thing" Cheney bullshit.

Clark meets Wayne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KfsAK3fIQo

The fanservice fight at the end... which at least had the 2 of them discussing what the hell they were fighting about rather than not having any dialogue at all as in the comic.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx6l39BR_FM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYmDcNCGKs
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 06:31:48 AM by Sir T »

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Venkman
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Reply #925 on: July 16, 2015, 06:47:52 PM

I'm a heretic I'm sure, but I hated Bruce's voice as Batman in that.

I enjoyed MoS both times I watched it. But this new one seems to only borrow the concept of a fight between Superman and Batman from TDKR, skipping every establishing principal. That's fine in my mind. To do TDKR right, you'd need a few more Superman movies showing his decline from beacon of hope to government strong man, and probably one more Batman movie to recover from the sucky third one, to establish the new Batman actor, and show him going even more anti-establishment.

Timing-wise it does line up with Captain America Civil War, which has two moderate heavies going at it, one with genetic powers vs the other normal rich dude in expensive tech. But Marvel will do it better.

I also don't get why Wonder Woman is in this new movie.
Ard
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Reply #926 on: July 16, 2015, 09:13:49 PM

Because it's a story about how the justice league gets together, and she's one of the main three so it kinda has to include her.
Setanta
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Reply #927 on: July 16, 2015, 11:00:58 PM

I now want to watch the cartoon version more than this film :)

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Reply #928 on: July 17, 2015, 01:24:32 AM

I also don't get why Wonder Woman is in this new movie.
Should we also consider it a telling point that as of yet Aquaman has yet to make ANY kind of appearance in actual footage?

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Khaldun
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Reply #929 on: July 17, 2015, 05:17:54 AM

I don't think he's going to be in anything but the very end, though.

With Wonder Woman, my guess will be that she steps in to stop the boys from fighting and gets them to focus on whatever Lex Luthor is up to instead.
jgsugden
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Reply #930 on: July 17, 2015, 02:06:18 PM

From what I've heard they are not characters in the main part of this film.   Edit: That 'spoiler' seems wrong to some extent, now.  They may have more presence.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 05:22:36 PM by jgsugden »

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Venkman
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Reply #931 on: July 24, 2015, 03:03:34 PM

Because it's a story about how the justice league gets together, and she's one of the main three so it kinda has to include her.

Kiinda wish that was the main thrust of their PR honestly. What average movie goer wants Batman and Superman to fight if all they've had over the last decade is Chris Nolan's Batman and the two Superman movies? I loved the original Miller comic, but I feel like DC is missing the build up to the fight that the whole original graphic novel established. In short, they kinda just jumped to the punchline.

While Marvel is out there effectively establishing what super hero movies should be (heroes and teams), this feels like the opposite.

Nothing new here for all of you of course. Late to the party and all that smiley
sickrubik
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Reply #932 on: October 06, 2015, 01:51:20 PM


beer geek.
HaemishM
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Reply #933 on: October 06, 2015, 01:59:25 PM

I'm not sure that take on it is any improvement.

Ironwood
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Reply #934 on: October 06, 2015, 02:35:59 PM

Man of Steel 2.

Fucking Be There.

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Reply #935 on: October 06, 2015, 02:57:52 PM

I'm not sure that take on it is any improvement.

It does explain the look, at least. He at least looks like the redheaded douchecanoe.

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Evildrider
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Reply #936 on: October 06, 2015, 03:13:52 PM

jgsugden
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Reply #937 on: December 01, 2015, 11:05:28 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6as8ahAr1Uc

Dream sequence most likely.  I am surprised at how good the Batman outfit looks (although the trenchcoat is weird).  Despite the costume working, seeing Ben Awfuleck as Bruce Wayne just doesn't work for me.  It feels about as natural as Jack Black as Superman.

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Reply #938 on: December 01, 2015, 11:11:33 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6as8ahAr1Uc

Dream sequence most likely.  I am surprised at how good the Batman outfit looks (although the trenchcoat is weird).  Despite the costume working, seeing Ben Awfuleck as Bruce Wayne just doesn't work for me.  It feels about as natural as Jack Black as Superman.


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eldaec
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Reply #939 on: December 01, 2015, 11:21:05 AM

I'm with sickrubik. And if true, impressed that they somehow managed to undershoot my expectations of what superman vs batman means.

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Reply #940 on: December 01, 2015, 11:29:39 AM

I'm with sickrubik. And if true, impressed that they somehow managed to undershoot my expectations of what superman vs batman means.


beer geek.
HaemishM
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Reply #941 on: December 01, 2015, 11:45:29 AM

The Superman in this clip is OBVIOUSLY Bizarro/Clone Superman just based on the bowing and scraping of the prison guards and the whole "I'm so evil" glare. As for the BatTrench, that look is pretty consistent with some of Miller's style from the Dark Knights.

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Reply #942 on: December 01, 2015, 12:16:26 PM

Glad I spoiler-tagged.  why so serious?

beer geek.
HaemishM
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Reply #943 on: December 01, 2015, 12:53:05 PM

Why bother spoilering for a movie that's not out for months and hasn't even revealed enough of the plot for spoilers to even exist?

Ironwood
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Reply #944 on: December 01, 2015, 12:54:59 PM

And will also be pish ?

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