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Author Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice  (Read 283115 times)
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #525 on: February 04, 2014, 05:49:52 AM

The avengers movie had almost zero time to establish any character growth at all,  I don't know what people expect could have been done in the time allotted.

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Margalis
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Reply #526 on: February 04, 2014, 05:50:19 AM

A lot of "boy scout" characters can come off as douches if their handling is a little off. And Whedon leans heavily towards everybody being a douche already.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Cyrrex
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Reply #527 on: February 04, 2014, 06:16:43 AM

The avengers movie had almost zero time to establish any character growth at all,  I don't know what people expect could have been done in the time allotted.

That's a fair enough comment, but they still need to find a way to make CA seem more useful to the group.  If you magically erased him from the last movie, what's the worse thing that happens?  Eh, maybe like 10 more civilians dies.  Do that with any of the other three, and Loki takes over the whole fucking world.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Ironwood
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Reply #528 on: February 04, 2014, 07:22:33 AM

Ironman is a dick, but an extremely charismatic, sarcastic and funny one as far as the audience is concerned.  Everyone wants to be, or be friends with, Tony Stark.

Thor is a dick, but has the big ole hunky Adonis type charisma that human beings are automatically drawn to, whether we like it or not.

Hulk is a dick, but in a totally awesome and sometimes hilarious way.  We also feel bad for him, so there's that.

Cap is a dick....and yep, pretty much just a dick.  He needs some kind of schtick, something that we can respond to positively.

Actually, for me, I responded better to Cap because he was a man out of time and had a much, much healthier view of the world.  I suspect (and have some inkling due to the trailers) that's what I'll like about the next Cap film also.

Basically, I liked Cap, so fuck all y'all.  Or something.

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Khaldun
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Reply #529 on: February 04, 2014, 07:23:51 AM

The usual way of making Captain America matter in team adventures in the comics mostly apply to Batman in the Justice League:

1) Indomitableness (fairly similar to Batman's writer-enhanced abilities to always have a plan). He's the last guy standing, somehow, usually with the assistance of his shield. He's the guy that talks the bad guy out of it, somehow gets to his feet when even gods and monsters are down, has a plan when everyone else has given up, fights on even when he's badly wounded, etc.  Very hard to do in a film.
2) Team leaderliness. I think there's a way to do this but yeah, it means he has to be the guy that everybody trusts even when they don't trust each other. Which means he has to be something he often hasn't been in the comics, which is someone with a lot of emotional intelligence--a guy who gets you, whomever you are, and knows how to talk to you, whomever you are. The way they do it in the comics instead is that he's the ultimate Dudley Do-Right, who always knows what's right, who is always honest and transparent, etc.--but that's not enough in a 21st Century setting, where we've maybe grown up enough to know that sometimes there isn't one single thing that's right and everything else completely wrong, and that being brutally honest at all times and all situations is actually a sort of sociopathic way to live.
3) Tactical leaderliness. The Avengers' version of Ender Wiggen who somehow sees that the enemy's gate is down. Also really hard to do in a film, and hard to do without doing the Batman-always-has-a-plan kind of writing.
4) By giving him supreme leadership over the street-level guys, etc.--sort of the boss of all the vigilantes, the spies and ninjas, the specialists, the hand-to-hand guys. The trainer who teaches everybody baseline combat skills, etc.   This works well, but then you have to have part of the story be "things that gods and monsters can't do", just as you would with a Justice League story.

You have to start in both cases with a story that genuinely has something that muscle and speed can't accomplish. In a JL story, that can be: a villain who can't be touched without triggering retaliation against all superheroes (e.g., Luthor looks like a good guy, has the law and government on his side, etc.); a villain who has something to counter the muscle and speed (kryptonite, etc.); a street-level villain who is keeping the muscle and speed occupied with his own muscle and speed while he goes off and executes the master plan, etc.
Cyrrex
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Reply #530 on: February 04, 2014, 07:28:48 AM


Basically, I liked Cap, so fuck all y'all.  Or something.


Well...I kinda do too in his own movie, because absolutely everything about him makes sense.  I am really only picking on how he comes across in the Avengers movie, and making a parallel to how Batman has the same issues if he's teamed with Superman.

Edit:  changed to to too.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 07:43:09 AM by Cyrrex »

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Ironwood
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Reply #531 on: February 04, 2014, 07:30:15 AM

It's ok, I get that.  I'm not REALLY telling you to go fuck yourself.  That would be something of an overreaction given the movie.  :)

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tazelbain
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Reply #532 on: February 04, 2014, 07:34:17 AM

Make him like Goku, every time he gets beat up he gets stronger, more agaile, heal faster.

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Cyrrex
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Reply #533 on: February 04, 2014, 07:45:37 AM

Shit, give him like a stealthy suit (predator style) or something so that he can blend in with the background or something.  There, now he's super useful, and it doesn't require an exaggeration of his powers.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
HaemishM
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Reply #534 on: February 04, 2014, 08:28:52 AM

You almost had it, then you dismissed it. Cap is not there for "gymnastics," he's there for leadership. And I don't just mean leadership of these all-powerful beings - though he does have the stones to carry that off. No, Captain America is there to provide a public face of leadership, to assure the general public that yes, these fuckers can destroy mountains and there are aliens blowing up shit in New York, but this "REGULAR GUY" is there to pull them together and lead them, he's there to inspire people. The scene in Avengers where he orders the panicking cops to set up a perimeter and all that - that's the shit Captain America was there to do. No, it isn't hitting things very loudly but it is just as important to SHIELD and to the Avengers. He also gave specific assignments to the super powered folks - hit them here, drive those units that way, etc. He's the battlefield general.

Evildrider
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Reply #535 on: February 04, 2014, 11:27:21 AM

You almost had it, then you dismissed it. Cap is not there for "gymnastics," he's there for leadership. And I don't just mean leadership of these all-powerful beings - though he does have the stones to carry that off. No, Captain America is there to provide a public face of leadership, to assure the general public that yes, these fuckers can destroy mountains and there are aliens blowing up shit in New York, but this "REGULAR GUY" is there to pull them together and lead them, he's there to inspire people. The scene in Avengers where he orders the panicking cops to set up a perimeter and all that - that's the shit Captain America was there to do. No, it isn't hitting things very loudly but it is just as important to SHIELD and to the Avengers. He also gave specific assignments to the super powered folks - hit them here, drive those units that way, etc. He's the battlefield general.

This.  Cap is a leader, and his core beliefs and morality is why almost every superhero in Marvel will follow him into battle. 
Wizgar
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Reply #536 on: February 04, 2014, 03:54:51 PM

This is just one of those literary problems that has existed forever. My favorite example was Hercules joining the voyage of the Argonauts and then having to fuck off before getting to do anything. They've been sending Superman off on space vacation to let Batman have some fun since antiquity.
Khaldun
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Reply #537 on: February 05, 2014, 05:50:56 AM

The only alternatives to mixing gods and humans are making the Superman-level characters so remote that the drama is mostly about whether they can be motivated to give a shit (Dr. Manhattan) or making them genuine gods who rule over humanity (Miracleman). Otherwise you somehow write stories where there are things gods can't do that humans have to do, or there are too many things for gods to do so there's stuff in there that humans need to do as well. (That's basically Superman and lots of his iterations in the comics, like Samaritan in Astro City.) 
Tannhauser
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Reply #538 on: February 05, 2014, 02:27:02 PM

Sidebar:  Hey!  Another Astro City fan! Wasn't that comic the bees knees?

Look at it from this direction:  Could Thor have stopped the Chitauri by himself?  Right after New York didn't he just stop the Dark Elf invasion pretty much by himself?  Think of the Avengers movie and tell me where Thor couldn't have done it solo.  But it was a team movie so he didn't.
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Reply #539 on: February 05, 2014, 02:33:59 PM

The Chitauri invasion was also significantly larger than the Dark Elf invasion.

Plus, he did have help.

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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #540 on: February 05, 2014, 03:04:40 PM

Sidebar:  Hey!  Another Astro City fan! Wasn't that comic the bees knees?

Look at it from this direction:  Could Thor have stopped the Chitauri by himself?  Right after New York didn't he just stop the Dark Elf invasion pretty much by himself?  Think of the Avengers movie and tell me where Thor couldn't have done it solo.  But it was a team movie so he didn't.

huh? Thor didn't do anything in "The dark world" by himself.  He was constantly being helped along by Asgardians and Humans, he ultimately defeated the dark elves but it was far from a solo effort.

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SurfD
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Reply #541 on: February 06, 2014, 05:17:12 AM

Sidebar:  Hey!  Another Astro City fan! Wasn't that comic the bees knees?

Look at it from this direction:  Could Thor have stopped the Chitauri by himself?  Right after New York didn't he just stop the Dark Elf invasion pretty much by himself?  Think of the Avengers movie and tell me where Thor couldn't have done it solo.  But it was a team movie so he didn't.
The Dark Elf invasion force that reached earth was nowhere NEAR the scale of the Chitauri attack, and the rest of the Dark Elf forces pretty much faceplanted themselves all over Asguard trying to get into the city.  Also, events of Dark world take place what appears to be at least 1, possibly as much as 2 years after Newyork.  Otherwise, Jane would not have been almost over him enough to begin trying to date other guys.

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eldaec
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Reply #542 on: February 06, 2014, 08:07:20 AM

Also, Padme wouldn't have said to James Hunt "huh, it's been 2 years since new mexico".

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MediumHigh
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Reply #543 on: February 06, 2014, 08:21:01 AM

Thor really doesn't do much of anything in his own movie. Does he beat Malikith... nope... save the world from eternal darkness... nope.... beat super dark elf... nope.... defeat an army of dark elves soldiers by himself... nope. I'm kinda wondering how much they are willing to down grade suoperman for the sake of sequals and the team up movies. Thor kinda started waaaaaaaay gimped so any decrease in superman's power level would be noticeable.
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Reply #544 on: February 06, 2014, 03:03:26 PM

Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor

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sickrubik
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Reply #545 on: February 06, 2014, 03:04:34 PM

Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor

Are you reporting news, Bloodworth?

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Raguel
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Reply #546 on: February 06, 2014, 03:48:39 PM

sickrubik
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Reply #547 on: February 06, 2014, 04:05:37 PM

*cough*Latino Review*cough*

I wouldn't put a lot of faith into anything they say.

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Venkman
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Reply #548 on: February 08, 2014, 06:33:06 AM

I agree that some writers (and fans) have gone a little crazy with Batman just being so fucking crafty that he can do anything. I mean, it was stupid even in Dark Knight returns - 60 year old Batman defeats Superman with the power of electricity. Lol.
No. They made a very clear point about how this didn't matter. His kitted-out battle tank didn't matter. His new-Robin didn't matter. His suit, it plugged into the power grid, and all the strength it gave him didn't matter.

It was all a set up to Ollie shooting that kryptonite arrow so that Superman would catch it at the same moment Wayne had the faux heart attack (and even that didn't work out perfectly).

This actually corrolates to Cap in the Avengers movie. They have him doing gymnastics just so he has a seat at the table. But as was discussed on this page, his real role is the leadership he shows first by trying to get the team to work together and then ultimately to run the strategy for the battle in NY. He just needed the powers for the movie because the part of the non-super human leader was already being played by Fury.

Now, I won't say I think they pulled that off well, just that it was their intent smiley
Cyrrex
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Reply #549 on: February 08, 2014, 08:08:46 AM

I just don't think they pulled off the leadership angle well AT ALL.  He basically pissed them all off on the carrier.  In New York, the impression I came away with was that he was directing all the unimportant stuff, whiles IM, Hulk and Thor did all the world-saving.  I may have missed a thing here or there, but that's what I remember.  He comes across as just slightly better than useless.

Again, I like CA, particularly in his own movie.  I think Whedon needs to work harder to put him on more equal footing with the rest of the Avengers, however.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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Reply #550 on: February 08, 2014, 08:31:27 AM

I just don't think they pulled off the leadership angle well AT ALL.  He basically pissed them all off on the carrier.

You know the pissed them off had a lot to do with the mind gem, right? Additionally, it's hard to be in charge with a group of crazy people who have all operated on their own previously, which was what they were showing.

But more over,  he's a BATTLEFIELD leader, which they illustrated quite well. He's not the leader-leader. That's Fury/SHIELD.

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Ironwood
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Reply #551 on: February 08, 2014, 12:25:07 PM

THEY WERE ALL DOUCHEBAGS AND NOT A TEAM.  THEN THEY BECAME A TEAM.

IT'S LIKE YOUR MISSING THE POINT OF THE WHOLE FILM FOR THE FUN OF IT.

Stop it.  It's kinda silly.

Jesus wept, it was even called 'Avengers Assemble'.

Thor - I am a God and here to do my shit, don't get in my way.
Hulk - I want to be left alone to the point of suicide
Iron Man - I am just better than all of you.  And rich.  So, so rich.
Black Widow - I could kill you all with my vagina.
Hawkeye - Brood.  Brood, brood, brood, crows nest.
Captain America - I have no fucking idea what's going on in this timestream and it confuses and angers me and who are all these douchebags ?

The fact that they all magically forget everything that they did and learned in their own films was entirely on point.  It was about building a team and let me tell you when you build a team in real life, it's pretty much like that fucking film.

Even with Loki.  I fucking hate when Loki turns up in real life.  Goddamn mind gems and trying to tell people we pay overtime and shit.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Reply #552 on: February 08, 2014, 03:13:42 PM

Black Widow - I could kill you all with my vagina.

I volunteer to test that boast.

Quote
The fact that they all magically forget everything that they did and learned in their own films was entirely on point.  It was about building a team and let me tell you when you build a team in real life, it's pretty much like that fucking film.

Even with Loki.  I fucking hate when Loki turns up in real life.  Goddamn mind gems and trying to tell people we pay overtime and shit.

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Reply #553 on: February 15, 2014, 12:42:55 AM

So, I'm just going to throw out that Superman and Batman are great foils to each-other.  You have the boyscout and the dark cynical one. Granted in the comics it works a lot better because you can have thought bubbles, where each respects the other for what they do. It will be really tough to show the mutual respect they have for the other. 

Or it can be a cop buddy movie.

I have a feeling we are going to get the cop buddy movie unfortunately.

HaemishM
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Reply #554 on: April 29, 2014, 01:01:36 PM

Because you couldn't hate Zak Synder enough, he will direct the Justice League movie.

I actually don't have a problem with this, but I'm sure someone's beard just got a little heated and neckly.

Khaldun
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Reply #555 on: April 29, 2014, 01:13:32 PM

Eh, I see so many small signs that WB still doesn't have a fucking clue about how to handle this IP that Synder is only a small piece of it all.
Ironwood
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Reply #556 on: April 29, 2014, 01:23:03 PM

DC just keep fucking the dog.

We finally got Man of Steel over here and we lasted about 20-30 mins before we changed the channel.  Fucking Woeful movie.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Velorath
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Reply #557 on: April 29, 2014, 01:28:13 PM

I don't hate Snyder. Visually the guy has a lot of talent. Sucker Punch showed that he should never write again though, and most peoples' biggest issue with Watchmen seemed to be that Snyder stuck too rigidly to the source material which, let's face it, is probably the smallest sin an Alan Moore adaptation has committed. Didn't see the Owl movie, but Man of Steel had a lot of talented people involved in the process and it just didn't turn out well.

That said, I'm not looking forward to these upcoming DC movies at all.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 03:30:49 PM by Velorath »
HaemishM
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Reply #558 on: April 29, 2014, 02:15:53 PM

I still think you guys are giving Man of Steel too much shit, as I really liked everything up to the killing of Zod. I understand your concerns with the tone, but I liked it. The "we destroyed Metropolis and either nobody died or no one cared" criticisms I just can't take seriously because LOLCOMICSMOVIE. I think the "we have literally draped everything in a turquoise filter to make explosions pop more" is a more valid criticism.

Sucker Punch, though... yeah, that was a dreadful fucking mistake on almost every level. And I don't see how sticking to the source material hurt Watchmen at all, considering he changed the ending pretty significantly and for the better, IMO.

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Reply #559 on: April 29, 2014, 02:19:19 PM

Yeah Man of Steel was better for me than the X-Men/Spiderman/Batman movies I didn't like. Which is good enough considering I find Supes to be lame as fuck as a hero. It certainly was not Ghost Rider or Fantastic Four bad and I'm guessing Green Latern was much much worse. I have never watched ten minutes of that one.

Best comic book movie? Certainly not. Disservice to comic book movies / some kind of big letdown of such a cool and interesting character? I don't get it. How can you say that.

Watchman was fantastic, I saw it a week or two ago and it holds up well. Anyone bitching about that just loves bitching a bit too much.

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