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Author Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice  (Read 283106 times)
Signe
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Reply #210 on: August 24, 2013, 08:12:53 AM

Your Glasgow grin.  I haven't heard that for ages and only out of the mouths of Scots.  Well, there's Chelsea but they call it something else.  Of course, maybe it's different now because of Tommy Flannagan - whom I adore, scars and all.  

edit:  I make typo!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 08:15:52 AM by Signe »

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Ironwood
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Reply #211 on: August 24, 2013, 12:00:52 PM

I thought everyone called it that.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
HaemishM
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Reply #212 on: August 24, 2013, 12:27:36 PM

I.. what ?

I think she's saying you touch little boys.

Raguel
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Reply #213 on: August 24, 2013, 12:41:18 PM


I hope going with Affleck means they aren't doing Batman as "the Dark Knight" but as "the Detective"; not that I don't like the first but I'd rather see another interpretation and I think it's a better fit for Affleck.
Setanta
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Reply #214 on: August 24, 2013, 03:09:48 PM


Regardless, even if he was the perfect Batman, this is a horrible situation.  Introducing Batman in another hero's film - in a franchise that many considered to start weekly primarily due to a lack of faithfullness to the character's core tennants - in a version of a storyline that is built upon the long term relationship between the two characters... Recipe for failure.   Batman needed his own film before you shoved them together.

I'm amazed more people haven't picked up on this because all I can think is the ending to the "How It Should Have Ended" clips.

I'm certain that the writers have a vision, but they are competing with the memory of Bale as Batman. To me it stinks of them just trying to focus an audience on Superman again by using a character that seems to be a lot more popular than Superman, but by using an actor that is not established as Batman.

"No man is an island. But if you strap a bunch of dead guys together it makes a damn fine raft."
Velorath
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Reply #215 on: August 25, 2013, 01:45:00 AM


Regardless, even if he was the perfect Batman, this is a horrible situation.  Introducing Batman in another hero's film - in a franchise that many considered to start weekly primarily due to a lack of faithfullness to the character's core tennants - in a version of a storyline that is built upon the long term relationship between the two characters... Recipe for failure.   Batman needed his own film before you shoved them together.

I'm amazed more people haven't picked up on this because all I can think is the ending to the "How It Should Have Ended" clips.

I'm certain that the writers have a vision, but they are competing with the memory of Bale as Batman. To me it stinks of them just trying to focus an audience on Superman again by using a character that seems to be a lot more popular than Superman, but by using an actor that is not established as Batman.

I think if there's one thing they're doing right here, it's that we don't need another Batman origin movie. Multiple generations have been exposed to the character already. If a new Batman shows up in a Superman movie people aren't going to be asking themselves "who the hell is this guy in a bat suit?".
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #216 on: August 25, 2013, 01:58:43 AM

Problem is even knowing batman there are still many differing versions of him.  Is the batman/superman batman the same as the nolan batman with a different actor? Is morgan freeman going to pop up? is Ras dead/alive? Is the joker? 

With a new actor and no backstory there are a lot of questions, irregardless of how well known batman is.

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Velorath
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Reply #217 on: August 25, 2013, 03:10:11 AM

Problem is even knowing batman there are still many differing versions of him.  Is the batman/superman batman the same as the nolan batman with a different actor? Is morgan freeman going to pop up? is Ras dead/alive? Is the joker? 

With a new actor and no backstory there are a lot of questions, irregardless of how well known batman is.

Anybody who gives a fuck about any of those questions is already going to know going into the movie that it's not the Nolan Batman. We're still just under two years away from this movie, and WB is out there loudly saying it's not the same character. The phrase "entirely new incarnation" was in the press release which every major news outlet has reported on.

These arguments about these hypothetical moviegoers who are going to be so confused by the change are really a bit ridiculous. By the time July 2015 rolls around and God knows how much marketing the public has endured, what do you think the percentage of movie goers who are interested in seeing a Superman/Batman movie but don't know it's not a continuation of the Nolan stuff is really going to be? The younger audience is already flooded with this stuff on twitter, and older people have been through multiple reboots of the character enough to understand how it works. Is there really a significant number of people who are going to be watching the movie unable to wrap their head around the fact that this is a different take on the character, but that the character is still likely a rich guy whose parents were killed which made him decide to fight crime in a bat costume?
eldaec
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Reply #218 on: August 25, 2013, 04:35:58 AM

I went to a production of "the Tempest" last month, I was sorely disappointed to discover that Prospero was not only played by different actor to that which I saw previously, but also was back on the island which he had previously escaped! Also Miranda and Ferdinand were acting like they had never met despite being married in the previous production!

People can cope with 'its a new continuity'. Nobody expected the Dark Knight to respect the Adam West continuity.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
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Reply #219 on: August 25, 2013, 05:10:19 AM

I don't think anyone will be confused about who the Batman is or what his motivations are in general. But it has a huge impact on the world-building they're doing if they're trying to work up to a Justice League.

Look at the subtle but persistent effects in Marvel movies of the sequence of characters being introduced and an account of how long they've been around and in what way.

"JL-World" will be very different if we're meant to believe that Batman in his outfit with his gimmicks has been a known part of life in Gotham City for a decade vs. if instead Bruce Wayne has been an unseen ninja fighting crime for his entire adult life but decides to put on a spandex uniform when he sees Superman on the TV.
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Reply #220 on: August 25, 2013, 09:17:24 AM


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Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #221 on: August 25, 2013, 09:46:28 AM

I went to a production of "the Tempest" last month, I was sorely disappointed to discover that Prospero was not only played by different actor to that which I saw previously, but also was back on the island which he had previously escaped! Also Miranda and Ferdinand were acting like they had never met despite being married in the previous production!

People can cope with 'its a new continuity'. Nobody expected the Dark Knight to respect the Adam West continuity.

There are not a hundred different versions of the tempest.  There is no communist Prospero or a female Prospero, it's the same story note by note every time.  The only constant in batman is "parent's die" and in some comics not even that.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Khaldun
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Reply #222 on: August 25, 2013, 11:48:16 AM

Actually directors do sometimes cast Prospero as female just to shake things up. Shakespeare is a bad/good example to bring up here depending on what side you're on--a different staging, different casting, different choices of abridgement, can make a Shakespeare play completely different from one performance to the next, and often does. No one really noted or cared much about the colonial subtext of The Tempest until relatively recently, and now that's become the major staging or concept in most performances of it.
eldaec
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Reply #223 on: August 25, 2013, 01:17:51 PM

I went to a production of "the Tempest" last month, I was sorely disappointed to discover that Prospero was not only played by different actor to that which I saw previously, but also was back on the island which he had previously escaped! Also Miranda and Ferdinand were acting like they had never met despite being married in the previous production!

People can cope with 'its a new continuity'. Nobody expected the Dark Knight to respect the Adam West continuity.

There are not a hundred different versions of the tempest.  There is no communist Prospero or a female Prospero, it's the same story note by note every time.  The only constant in batman is "parent's die" and in some comics not even that.

Honestly not sure if serious.

You do know Helen Mirren only recently shot a version playing Prospero?

Unless I just fell into the sarchasm you need to get out to the theatre more.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Velorath
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Reply #224 on: August 25, 2013, 02:07:28 PM

I went to a production of "the Tempest" last month, I was sorely disappointed to discover that Prospero was not only played by different actor to that which I saw previously, but also was back on the island which he had previously escaped! Also Miranda and Ferdinand were acting like they had never met despite being married in the previous production!

People can cope with 'its a new continuity'. Nobody expected the Dark Knight to respect the Adam West continuity.

There are not a hundred different versions of the tempest.  There is no communist Prospero or a female Prospero, it's the same story note by note every time.  The only constant in batman is "parent's die" and in some comics not even that.

There are a lot more constants than that. Virtually every non-comic depiction of Batman from Adam West to Christian Bale including the various animated series and the Arkham video games has included him being rich and having a mansion, the Batcave and the Batmobile, a butler/father figure named Alfred, his archenemy being the Joker, Catwoman being a enemy/ally/love interest, Commissioner Gordon being one of his biggest allies, etc...

Yeah there are a lot of versions of Batman but they mainly vary in regards to how dark or light-hearted the writing is, and to what extent the writers choose to play up his intellect or his fighting ability. With a good writer, you can establish that in about 5 minutes of screen time. I maintain that the biggest problem is that Goyer and Snyder are two of the most insanely inconsistent people working in the industry.
eldaec
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Reply #225 on: August 25, 2013, 03:17:40 PM

That said, there really is no reason you couldn't do a medieval batman, a steam punk batman, female batman, or batman 3013. The only reason it doesn't get shaken up as much as Shakespeare is the insidious, chilling effect of IP law.

There will never be another set of plays, characters, or stories reinterpreted the way Shakespeare is because of the power of corporate interests to rewrite copyright law for their own benefit.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Evildrider
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Reply #226 on: August 25, 2013, 03:25:50 PM

jgsugden
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Reply #227 on: August 25, 2013, 03:34:04 PM

I do not think we need to redo an origin story for Batman.  If you decided to do it, you could do it as a montage during the opening credits, or have Batman do it in a 3 to 5 minute flashback.  However, even though the origin doesn't need to be redone, you MUST establish this Batman on screen.  If he is going to carry a movie in the future, you have to establish who he is.  Is this a mirror of Bale's Batman?  Or Keaton's?  Or is it more like the Detective depicted in animated Batman shows?  Or something else?

Go back and think about your favorite action movies.  If they focus on one character (like Die Hard): How well do you get to know the secondary characters?  If this is a Superman movie with Batman, we're not going to get to know him very well.  If, on the other hand, we treat it like a buddy movie (like Tango & Cash or Lethal Weapon): Is there any character that was fleshed out deeply?  Usually the answer is no.  They instead rely upon you not understanding the depths of the character to make them a mystery and to make you unsure how they'll react in stressful times.  Does that type of uncertainty work in Batman and Superman movies?  I don't think so.

This is a movie where you need to remind people who Superman is, introduce Batman, introduce the villian (Luthor?), establish the conflict, have a conflict between Batman and Superman, twist the resolution to turn them against the villain and then have the final conflict.  In a story with those elements, you need to establish Batman in the first third of the movie AFTER reintroducing Superman.  That gives you about 15 to 20 minutes to give us the character of Batman.  And, as Affleck couldn't do it if we gave him 5 days to do it...

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Ironwood
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Reply #228 on: August 25, 2013, 03:37:06 PM

Well, if anything, this has at least brought the scum to the surface.

You know, that type of horrid person that thought Keaton did a good job.


 why so serious?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
eldaec
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Reply #229 on: August 25, 2013, 03:44:46 PM

I don't understand the comic strip. Affleck is not good in Argo. He's the biggest flaw in the film. This is not an unusual sentiment.

The town and Argo are remarkable for being good despite the director's performance as an actor.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
jgsugden
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Reply #230 on: August 25, 2013, 04:26:59 PM

Well, if anything, this has at least brought the scum to the surface.

You know, that type of horrid person that thought Keaton did a good job.

why so serious?
Context.

I don't know how old you are, but if you saw what had come before in terms of Superhero movies and then saw Keaton's Batman at release, you'd have no doubt that it was a huge leap forward.  If you look back now, it doesn't hold up as well - much as Star Wars does not hold up and provide the same magic it did when released - but the Keaton Batman was incredible for the time. 

Keaton did a fantastic job.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Tannhauser
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Reply #231 on: August 25, 2013, 05:00:27 PM

Yeah, it was the first (to me probably) time the geek culture really were vocal about displeasure in casting.  They should have been more worried about Prince's crazy-ass soundtrack.  Maybe Keaton and Burton took it to heart, he was the greatest Batman EVAR.

If you disagree I hope you like being wrong.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Lakov_Sanite
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Reply #232 on: August 25, 2013, 05:14:30 PM

Keaton was a smary and troubled Bruce but as batman he was more hampered by the suit and Burton having no idea how to do action than anything to do with acting.

~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
Sir T
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Reply #233 on: August 25, 2013, 06:00:03 PM

I actually watch Batman Returns every Christmas. Its a perfect Christmass movie for me and, for me, holds up really well. The entire cast was fantastic.

Hic sunt dracones.
Khaldun
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Reply #234 on: August 25, 2013, 07:03:56 PM

Well. Sometimes you have your opinion of people confirmed by unexpected evidence. Today is such a moment for me.
Sir T
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Reply #235 on: August 25, 2013, 07:29:28 PM

So... the fact that I like to watch a movie set around Christmass at Christmass means what exactly?

Hic sunt dracones.
HaemishM
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Reply #236 on: August 25, 2013, 07:35:27 PM

I actually watch Batman Returns every Christmas. Its a perfect Christmass movie for me and, for me, holds up really well. The entire cast was fantastic.

With the exception of the dance scene between Pfieffer and Keaton, the rest of that movie is absolute, utter shit of the worst kind.

The problems with the Burton Batman movies had nothing to do with Keaton, BTW.

Sir T
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Reply #237 on: August 25, 2013, 07:45:21 PM

I tend to watch it as Pheiffer, Keaton, Walken and DeVito having a great time and acting their ass off. The 4 of them carry the movie and it would have been utterly stupid without them putting in a stellar performance. Besides when the rest of my family insist on watching shit like "the Santa Clause"  oer and over, 5 times in one day at Christmas, Batman Returns gives me a welcome sense of relief.

Besides, why be biased. Hell, the sexes are equal with their erogenous zones blown sky high.

Hic sunt dracones.
Hoax
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Reply #238 on: August 25, 2013, 08:15:09 PM

I think Rises proves that the actor doesn't matter for the quality of the Batman. Costume design, fight choreography and writing in lots of gadgets and smart ass Batman tricks and tactics for Batman to use make a good Batman along with a ton of other non actor stuff. That's why the quality of the Batman scenes even though it was still Bale were so fucking awful compared to the first two.

Keaton's Bruce Wayne was good to great and that's really the only parts the actor has full control over. He may have been a lazy fuck unwilling to learn cool looking movie kungfu in which case some of the Batman bits sucking is on him.

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Merusk
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Reply #239 on: August 25, 2013, 08:18:00 PM

I tend to watch it as Pheiffer, Keaton, Walken and DeVito having a great time and acting their ass off. The 4 of them carry the movie and it would have been utterly stupid without them putting in a stellar performance. Besides when the rest of my family insist on watching shit like "the Santa Clause"  oer and over, 5 times in one day at Christmas, Batman Returns gives me a welcome sense of relief.

Besides, why be biased. Hell, the sexes are equal with their erogenous zones blown sky high.
The Santa Clause?  I'm so, so sorry.  It could be worse, it could be Santa Claus: The Movie, from 85 with Dudley Moore.

I feel a lot less bad about watching Christmas Vacation and A Christmas Story during the holidays now.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Margalis
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Reply #240 on: August 25, 2013, 08:19:45 PM

Keaton was a good actor. You can argue whether or not he was right for Batman, but he was already established as a good actor and was often the best performer in whatever movie he was in.

Affleck is a bad actor. He's usually one of the worst actors in whatever movie he's in, and his best roles are mostly as a Boston goon / himself. He's not even good as himself half the time. I mean, he's like the worst actor in Jay and Silent Bob even.

I'm not super angry because it's a Zach Snyder movie so it's going to suck no matter what. But it's an odd choice.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
jgsugden
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Reply #241 on: August 25, 2013, 10:30:14 PM

It is a Snyder movie... and a contract for much more (some rumors saying up to 13 movies).  The reports are unconfirmed (AFAIK), but WB is reportedly locking their actors in before the first movie is made so that they don't have any RDJ/Iron Man issues. 

They're building a foundation on moldy Alffuck wood.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Ironwood
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Reply #242 on: August 26, 2013, 01:56:09 AM

I don't know how old you are,

Very.   Heartbreak cry Heartbreak cry Heartbreak Heartbreak Heartbreak cry

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tannhauser
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Reply #243 on: August 26, 2013, 02:47:31 AM

It is a Snyder movie... and a contract for much more (some rumors saying up to 13 movies).  The reports are unconfirmed (AFAIK), but WB is reportedly locking their actors in before the first movie is made so that they don't have any RDJ/Iron Man issues. 

They're building a foundation on moldy Alffuck wood.

Even if Affleck is good, even if Snyder does good, how many times can you go see these cats before it goes stale?  There's a reason for trilogies.  Tell an epic story then shut it down.  I love RDJ and Iron Man, but it was time for it to end. 
Ironwood
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Reply #244 on: August 26, 2013, 02:57:05 AM

Probably true.  Iron Man 3 and Rises both dissappointed me somewhat.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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