Nextbox infinity anticipation station

[Kageru]

Especially since you can game on a tablet with dominating the TV and living room.

Mobile gaming is pretty much the "game and watch" of this generation. But it's almost totally parallel to traditional gaming.

[Ingmar]

Every business Unit that is not Windows or Office is losing money or barely breaking even.

 

I don't know where you're getting this from. Exactly one of their divisions posted a loss for Q3 or for the fiscal YTD; that is the Online Services division which is Bing/MSN. Every other division is at a net positive, and most of them are making a lot of money. Entertainment and Devices made a mere 342 million in net income last quarter, which is the weakest showing out of the rest of them by a large margin. The other divisions are in the billions in profit. This is all publicly available information.

I think you guys are maybe not aware of just how much money Microsoft is making on the stuff you never touch - not desktop OSes or Office, but Server, SQL, SharePoint, Exchange, Lync, etc. They are breaking out of their legacy business model, it is just on the back end with SaaS stuff like 365 and Azure.

[Kageru]

Yes, having a monopoly position is amazingly profitable. Doesn't change the fact that most of their product releases have been "meh" and the market judges them on expectations of growth and inability to compete with more dynamic challenges.

[Paelos]

I think you guys are maybe not aware of just how much money Microsoft is making on the stuff you never touch - not desktop OSes or Office, but Server, SQL, SharePoint, Exchange, Lync, etc. They are breaking out of their legacy business model, it is just on the back end with SaaS stuff like 365 and Azure.

I'm very aware, it's the reason they can continue to produce income position to their shareholders on a regular basis.

Nothing in the next 5 years is going to upset that applecart. Anybody that suggests otherwise is a fool. However, they would be fools if they believe they can just roll out crap forever and hope for the best. They are in the Blizzard position of their market. The only thing that hurts them is their own arrogance.

[Sky]

- not all games can be played with a controller or they support controllers but still need the keyboard or mouse.
- Need to select the right graphics card/driver combo to get native 1:1 pixel ratio1080p output without overscan
- not all games support TV resolutions like 720p or 1080p
- audio over HDMI from a PC is still a major hassle
- if you want it to be reasonably low noise it gets either expensive or is a hassle to build yourself

and a few other issues.

- I've been using a keyboard, mouse, AND controller since 2003.
- Modern gpus will correct for overscan with 1:1 pixels.
- The overwhelming majority support 720 and 1080p.
- Why have an HDTV but not 5.1 audio? Most 5.1 systems have digital inputs, use that.
- If putting together a pc with modern parts is a hassle, yes buy a console

and a few other solutions.

I do like that spending an hour putting together a pc is a hassle but you think inserting a disc every time you play a game is a good thing.

I'd imagine even in the living room, there's a large audience for more bite-sized gaming maybe sandwiched in between some TV shows, enjoyed in 10-30minute chunks.

Yep, I do that pretty often. Just hit the input button on the remote and then I can hit PiP to see if I want to go back to cable.

I earn my greef tittle.

[Ingmar]

most of their product releases have been "meh"

[citation needed]

[Kageru]

most of their product releases have been "meh"

[citation needed]

Get back to me when microsoft makes it onto the list of exciting tech companies.

[Paelos]

I can tell you they are on the list of companies I hold stock in because it gets you paid.

I don't give a shit about exciting.

[Venkman]

I don't think the market for non-casual gaming is going away -- there's stuff offered by the console and PC gaming titles that just does not exist in the casual space and cannot (except as after the fact ports) due to the economics of it and/or the lack of useful control surfaces, ect.

Oh it won't go away. There'll always be room for LPs hard cover books core video games. But we see the machine that feeds that beast continue to contract. The price to develop is outpacing the increasing volume of sales because the core gamers are aging out and the younger ones are not replacing them one for one. 3.4mm units sold for Tomb Raider is a failure. That many units. For that franchise.

You could counter this simply by saying "summer block buster movies continue to do fine" and maybe you'll be right. But the requirements to sit on ones ass and do nothing for 90-120 minutes while explosions are thrown at you hasn't changed in 30 years, whereas console generations have ever escalating requirements needed to adopt new video game consoles and games for them. No, that's not really true. But that's the interpretation by aging-out gamers.

Meanwhile, smartphone games have reset back to the 80s what "gaming" can be, for people who don't consider themselves gamers, and who as a group are very much larger.

Core gamers aren't moving to tablets. They're adopting them in addition to core games. But the newer gamers (kids, non-gamer teens and adults) aren't complementing their tablets with consoles.

That's the future Apple is already in and Microsoft has finally started waking up to (and which is leaving Nintendo behind and which hasn't yet penetrated Sony's unique reality bubble). Hence them fumbling their always-on statements. They want to be a cable box that plays games. But they can't say that to gamers who don't want to be treated like the demographer dreams that is the TV viewing audience a Kinect camera will look at all the time.

And Xbox is still a "game" device, not a "settop" device. I'm curious if they'll be able to get non-gamers interested.

[Quinton]

I dunno.  I still think that there's more to the future of gaming than casual mobile stuff.

Perhaps AAA 10s-of-millions-of-dollars titles are in peril, and thus $500+ consoles that support such things also are having a rough time ahead, but the nature of today's hardware platforms and tools is such that a small team can build something compelling (that even has actual gameplay!) and doesn't need to sell millions of copies to survive.

I think the extremely restrictive distribution model of classic console may not survive this contraction or realignment of core gamers, but I suspect there will always be audiences looking more than casual experiences that are barely more interactive than movies, and pervasive, less expensive platforms with more open distribution models (hell, even Apple's AppStore looks frickin' wide open by comparison with the traditional console model), are going to allow non-casual gaming to continue to evolve and grow.

One of the other reasons for casual gaming on mobile as opposed to deeper content is that the touchscreen as a control surface has a lot of limitations.  Put the same hardware platform that drives your smartphone or tablet in an inexpensive box connected to your TV and you can use a variety of controllers with it and gameplay that is not practical when you're on-the-go becomes possible again.

[Sky]

Few of my favorite games were AAA tens of millions of dollars. As long as there are developers out there with the sense to still make a decent living catering to the core pc gaming crowd that has been around for decades, I'm ok. I mean, I'm not interested in mobile gaming, barely interested in consoles, and probably won't die for another 40 years. That's a lot of games.

It's one reason I decided to start backing a few video games on KS. I know it's one of the whipping boys around here, but small, niche, crowd-funded games could make life really interesting for certain gaming niches. If half of them turn out well, I'll be excited. It's something new and different and removes the publishing nonsense, at least from a development cycle concern to a release concern. Is it a chance to lose money? Of course. But for all the people bitching about EA, I'm the one putting my money on an alternate horse.

Quinton, why have a separate box rather than a dock with HDMI out and a powered USB hub for controllers? Use the computing power you already carry. Double it as a charger, use bluetooth for conversations, etc.

[jakonovski]

This  might be old news, but MS confirms that there will be used sales at retail. All this time demonizing Gamestop, it was the consumers the industry truly saw as the enemy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/31/tech/gaming-gadgets/sony-microsoft-drm/index.html?cid=sf_twitter

[Sophismata]

This  might be old news, but MS confirms that there will be used sales at retail. All this time demonizing Gamestop, it was the consumers the industry truly saw as the enemy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/31/tech/gaming-gadgets/sony-microsoft-drm/index.html?cid=sf_twitter

The number of times I've heard that software would work fine if the users didn't keep breaking it, or that the trains would run on time if the customers didn't keep catching them, amuses me.

[KallDrexx]

I think the future growth in gaming is going to be smaller (not "causal") indie games.  For the most part they are able to scale their scope and budgets to much more realistic levels, and Kickstarter is doing a lot to help in this regard.  Sony does see this, which is why they have become EXTREMELY friendly to indies in the past year or two (you can develop for the Vita for free now, and even use C# and Monogame if you don't want to use c++).

Microsoft has tried to say they'll be indie friendly with the XB1, but all indications show that XBLIG is gone for good (and it wasn't executed right so most people aren't too sad about it) so we'll have to see when they actually release details.

[KallDrexx]

[Quinton]

I think the future growth in gaming is going to be smaller (not "causal") indie games.  For the most part they are able to scale their scope and budgets to much more realistic levels, and Kickstarter is doing a lot to help in this regard.  Sony does see this, which is why they have become EXTREMELY friendly to indies in the past year or two (you can develop for the Vita for free now, and even use C# and Monogame if you don't want to use c++).

I hope they do something like that for PS4.  *That* might actually get me more interested in the PS4.

Is the publishing model for Vita games any more streamlined?  When I last looked the flow chart for develop/submit/review/approve/publish looked pretty insane.

I'm pretty convinced a tiered publishing model where anyone can publish to the basic tier with near-zero hassle, but that tier is not shown to users by default and they get a curated experience could work well.  Users opt in to exploring the long tail of indie stuff if they like, and user feedback could help bring basic tier games to the attention of reviewers who could kick off the process for review/approval into the curated store that all users see.

[KallDrexx]

I hope they do something like that for PS4.  *That* might actually get me more interested in the PS4.

Is the publishing model for Vita games any more streamlined?  When I last looked the flow chart for develop/submit/review/approve/publish looked pretty insane.

I'm pretty convinced a tiered publishing model where anyone can publish to the basic tier with near-zero hassle, but that tier is not shown to users by default and they get a curated experience could work well.  Users opt in to exploring the long tail of indie stuff if they like, and user feedback could help bring basic tier games to the attention of reviewers who could kick off the process for review/approval into the curated store that all users see.

Not sure how well they've streamlined it, as I don't have a vita so I haven't looked that deeply into it.

[Venkman]

This  might be old news, but MS confirms that there will be used sales at retail. All this time demonizing Gamestop, it was the consumers the industry truly saw as the enemy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/31/tech/gaming-gadgets/sony-microsoft-drm/index.html?cid=sf_twitter

It's not that the consumers are the enemy. It's more that large companies have specific ways in which they want to reveal info. Why bother answering any consumer questions between their announcement and the big investment they'll make for E3 when all this conversation about confusion on point A or B generates online conversations about X1? They'd only need to do that if they're in damage-control mode. They're not there yet.

There's a lot of angst about the plans, but it's less negative PR than cynical doomcasting of unknowns. This means there's still reason, even for the core gamers, to tune into E3, watch for public MS statements and all the other little tricks pulled in vast PR machines that complement all the direct marketing done between now and launch.

I dunno.  I still think that there's more to the future of gaming than casual mobile stuff.

Well, there's "casual" to a core gamer, and then there's "game" to the casual gamer. I agree each device is better suited to certain styles of games. As much as they keep trying first and third person shooters on iOS, I just don't see it working out well.

But then, I also don't know if core gamers are a big enough market to need to attract them to mobile/tablet. Not when self-styled non-gamers are willing to spend so much money buying the very things IGE and Yantis used to cause many arguments about in core gamer circles. If the industry can get a gamer to spend $5 on gems in a cartoony mobile game that cost $1mm to make, why spend $20mm for better graphics?

(hell, even Apple's AppStore looks frickin' wide open by comparison with the traditional console model)

I'd say the breadth and quantity of titles is more that making and shipping an X360 or PS3 game requires a much larger pipeline and vaster marketing resources to be quality and be noticed than it does to bang out an iOS game and then, when successful, going through the almost-feature-phone-days-like porting process.

But I agree the traditional model of few large ass games on a dedicated device are in decline. There aren't as many core gamers spending as much as they used to in this way.

[Sophismata]

There aren't as many core gamers spending as much as they used to in this way.

Definitely. I spent way more money on games when I didn't have a salary then I do now. But there hasn't been a "AAA" game that's appealed to me in years, with the exceptions of Diablo 3, which sucked, and XCOM:EU, which I regretted (it's also kind of bad).

[Kageru]

A lot of the AAA games have become on-rails, set-piece, special effect extravaganzas... and that's not what I want out of gaming.

Though I'm also beginning to wonder if fatigue is an element. When games were rare and novel getting a new title was a thrill. Now I look at my steam back-log and my enthusiasm flags.

[KallDrexx]

A lot of the AAA games have become on-rails, set-piece, special effect extravaganzas... and that's not what I want out of gaming.

Though I'm also beginning to wonder if fatigue is an element. When games were rare and novel getting a new title was a thrill. Now I look at my steam back-log and my enthusiasm flags.

Nah it's not fatigue.  I'm playing Metro: Last Light right now (came free with my graphics card).  I haven't played first person shooters in probably 3-4 years due to not having a PC to game with, and holy hell first person shooters have become ridiculously on rails in my absence.  It makes me sad :(.

Definitely. I spent way more money on games when I didn't have a salary then I do now. But there hasn't been a "AAA" game that's appealed to me in years, with the exceptions of Diablo 3, which sucked, and XCOM:EU, which I regretted (it's also kind of bad).

You are literally the first person I have seen who has said that the new XCOM was bad. 

[Pennilenko]

XCOM is horrible. It takes wild amounts of nostalgia and not looking at it too deep to make it enjoyable.

[Tebonas]

Wrong thread for that, but you are competely wrong.

Did it have faults that came to the forefront after you played the shit out of it? Sure. It is even possible to don't like it. But calling it a bad game?

That is an indefensible position if you don't start by redefining the word bad.

[Sky]

You are literally the first person I have seen who has said that the new XCOM was bad. 

Welcome to f13.

[jakonovski]

Heh.

[eldaec]

XCOM is horrible. It takes wild amounts of nostalgia and not looking at it too deep to make it enjoyable.

Are you sure you aren't confusing star trek with xcom?

[Pennilenko]

I'm sure. However, the disclaimer is that, that is just my opinion, and not a statement of fact. I don't expect everybody to agree with me, even though I know there at least some that do.

[CmdrSlack]

I am oddly intrigued by the improved Kinect. I use my Xbox for video streaming, games, and for the Your Shape fitness series. The improved Kinect is actually useful for my family. Better ability to track movement and better voice recognition is actually a desirable feature.

[Selby]

Though I'm also beginning to wonder if fatigue is an element. When games were rare and novel getting a new title was a thrill. Now I look at my steam back-log and my enthusiasm flags.

I still don't know if it's lack of good games coming out or fatigue as well for me.  The last "new" console game I bought that I got hundreds of hours out of was Dragon Quest 7.  I bought 8 and while it was prettier and had some nifty concepts, it was finished MUCH faster and with less effort than I remember older games taking.  Modern games just don't seem to hold my interest too much due to the rails and insane amount of cut-scenes and video - which I felt was novel for Resident Evil 1 & 2 when they were doing it then, but seems ridiculously heavy on newer games that I've seen people play.

This console... I just don't see anything exciting here.  But then I didn't see anything in the Xbox 360 either but my ex just had to have one...

[Morat20]

I got a couple of PC/Xbox stuff on Xbox that I got hundreds of hours out of -- Dragon Age: Origins, Skyrim, Mass Effects 1, 2 and 3......

Well, okay, so it's like three publishers max there....

[Soulflame]

That's two publishers, isn't it?  Or did Mass Effect 1 go out before EA bought them?

[rk47]

XCOM is horrible. It takes wild amounts of nostalgia and not looking at it too deep to make it enjoyable.

Are you sure you aren't confusing star trek with xcom?

Sorry, the whole 'Let's simplify movement points into phases' sucked.
Jagged Alliance 2 had it perfected with climbing, crouching, lying prone, destructible terrains and did not feel like constrained campaign where you had to pick mission A, B or C. And that console UI - thanks for the port, now get the fuck out and never rape XCOM again.

[Rasix]

I still don't know if it's lack of good games coming out or fatigue as well for me.  The last "new" console game I bought that I got hundreds of hours out of was Dragon Quest 7.  I bought 8 and while it was prettier and had some nifty concepts, it was finished MUCH faster and with less effort than I remember older games taking.  

Weirdos. 

[Sophismata]

The primary issue I had with XCOM was that there was no depth to the tactical game. You couldn't flank, you couldn't scout or ambush, all you really did was overwatch -> advance. I didn't find it challenging; I found it tedious, and I put the game down after about 6 hours played.

XCOM followed Mass Effect and Dragon Age in having a very badly tuned combat system for any difficulty other than normal, and having normal being so much of a cakewalk that the game is utterly boring.

Fortunately, I was able to derive enjoyment from other aspects of Mass Effect 2 (but Dragon Age 1 and Mass Effect 1, not so much).

[Jeff Kelly]

I disagree as far as Mass Effect 2 is concerned. Hardcore and Insanity modes are challenging yet balanced and while the powers might trivialize some encounters this depends on your selected class and choice of squad mates.

Unfortunately they threw out most of it for ME 3.

That being said let's get BTT people.