Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[MahrinSkel]

I like how you think the direct insult is the acme of trolling.  If you want to draw someone into a flame war, try more subtle implications of stupidity, rather than running straight for the four-letter words.  You want to hit someone's insecurities by making them *feel* stupid, rather than just making an easily shrugged off declaration.

--Dave

[jgsugden]

And recall, once again, that the pilot had not yet been filmed and the second episode had not yet been written when the showrunners read the Cap 2 script.  The entire first season was built around Cap 2.  Cap 2 did not do anything to this show other than set the stage.

At this point, it appears that there are a few ways in which they failed to synch the show with movie in fine detail, but we're still a few episodes from the end of the season, and they've attempted a few misleads.   We'll have to see how it ends.

[Tannhauser]

I liked the Hydra parts better than the Shield parts this episode.  Enjoying all the chaos the last episode unleashed. 


Bottom line to me though is the show now keeps my attention and I enjoy it.  They are keeping up a nice urgency with the shows pace which helps greatly.

[Threash]

[Ghambit]

[Margalis]

TV episodes generally are written pretty seat-of-the-pants.

I find it hard to believe that the acting and writing choices in the first few episodes were a deliberate plan. It seems much more likely that they produced a few episodes, got feedback on Ward, realized the audience thought he sucked and figured out a fix.

It's like those Lost characters Nikki and Paulo. They were introduced, they were annoying, they were killed off. But they weren't annoying on purpose, that wasn't the plan. Killing them off was just giving the fans what they wanted when the characters didn't hit the way the creators hoped.

That's not really a criticism. Almost every TV show has a "making it up as we go along" element. In many ways that's a good thing, as it can lead to more organic and honest results than trying to stick to a rigid plan. (See "How I Met Your Mother") It's only a big problem for shows that rely or imply some sort of elaborate long-term planning but can't pull it off.

[Velorath]

TV episodes generally are written pretty seat-of-the-pants.

I find it hard to believe that the acting and writing choices in the first few episodes were a deliberate plan. It seems much more likely that they produced a few episodes, got feedback on Ward, realized the audience thought he sucked and figured out a fix.

It's like those Lost characters Nikki and Paulo. They were introduced, they were annoying, they were killed off. But they weren't annoying on purpose, that wasn't the plan. Killing them off was just giving the fans what they wanted when the characters didn't hit the way the creators hoped.

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure if that's the case here. Partly because people seem to complain about Skye a lot more than Ward, so I'm not sure why they'd "fix" his character and not hers. More than that though, if people aren't really digging a particular character/actor and the writers decide they need to do something about it, killing the character off or otherwise writing them out of the story is generally the fix. Giving the character a more prominent role is the opposite of what most writing teams would usually do, especially something tricky like this where they're requiring the actor to essentially play a dual role. The writers would have to have a lot of faith in the actor to do this in response to the audience not liking him, and prior to the last couple episodes, I'm not sure where that faith would have come from.

[eldaec]

Feels to me like Ward possibly was planned to be unlikable. Skye was not.

[Margalis]

Maybe it's worth distinguishing between writing and acting choices.

I recall a conversation earlier in this thread about who knew what when, to the tune of the writers knew a fair amount about what was to happen in CA2 but the actors didn't know as much. I can believe that there was a plan for Ward to be evil or fake evil - I have trouble believing that his bad acting and unlikable character were actor choices to support that.

Remember back to the pilot - it had a ton of stupid shit. I assume for no reason other than that sometimes TV is bad.

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Agents-SHIELD-Spoilers-Hydra-Clairvoyant-1080215.aspx

According to the producers they had a loose plan and Dalton / Ward wasn't in on it at first.

Feels to me like Ward possibly was planned to be unlikable. Skye was not.

Skye pretty clearly fits in with Joss Whedon female characters. Super competent waif / martial arts hottie / space hooker ninja with a heart of gold. She's also pretty clearly supposed to be the point of view character, as the outsider introduced to SHIELD along with the viewers. So it's hard to believe that she was intended to be unlikable. It seems like more of trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, where the typical Whedon character just didn't work in this setting.

Ward-style characters aren't as common in Whedon stuff and usually aren't very well done. Riley from Buffy wasn't particularly likable IIRC. (Probably the least likable of male cast members in that period) Hawkeye is bland unlikable nothing in the Avengers. I'm not sure that Whedon can write a straightforward bad ass male without making him bland or a douche.

[Fordel]

Hawkeye is bland unlikable nothing in the Avengers. I'm not sure that Whedon can write a straightforward bad ass male without making him bland or a douche.

Can anyone? 

[Threash]

Patton Oswalt once again knocks it out of the park as the unlikely badass.

[eldaec]

Wesley and Gunn did fine in Angel.

Malcolm and Jane were good in Firefly.

Also Giles, Spike (only a douche some of the time), Book, and of course Coulsen.

Being a bad ass wasn't their entire characters, but they were all suitably competant when appropriate, yet did not bore me to tears the rest of the time.

[jgsugden]

Outside of the unlikely possibility that they've brainwashed Ward into thinking he is Hydra,  I was wrong about him.  In retrospect, after seeing some clips put together from throughout the season that show individual Ward moments that had subtle double meanings, I'm now thinking it was planned all along and executed well.  

The main lingering issue for me is Hand telling Ward to shoot Garrett in the plane.  It makes no sense.  Risk piercing the hull to kill a prisoner which is the sole reason you're in the air in the first place?  I still would not be surprised if there were more there... however, I can't come up with a good storyline that isn't riddled with logic holes.
I thought for just a second that we were going to get to see Blonsky (Abomination) when Ward curt through the floor in the Fridge, but then I recalled that the Fridge was on a beach somewhere and Blonksy was in Cryo in Alaska - not the Fridge.  

[Evildrider]

Telling Ward to kill Garret is totally within Hand's character from how I remember her in the comics.

[MahrinSkel]

Whedon does best with 'revealed/retired Badass', where a character that at first is played for laughs becomes a Badass.  He caan go the other way, generally with a Heel/Face Turn, where a Bad Guy Badass gets emasculated and kicked around for a while.  But he can't do straight-up Tough Guy without it feeling flat.

I think you guys were right and Ward really was evil all along.  But Garret is just a decoy for the real Clairvoyant, and Raina is probably the one that will reveal it.

--Dave

[Ghambit]

Telling Ward to kill Garret is totally within Hand's character from how I remember her in the comics.

Except for the fact she let Sith Ward kill two agents before even moving a nanometer and then taking a bullet herself.  Not very shield-like reaction time there from her or her trained guards.  
They all had to be LMDs.  No doubt.

[eldaec]

Whedon does best with 'revealed/retired Badass', where a character that at first is played for laughs becomes a Badass.  He caan go the other way, generally with a Heel/Face Turn, where a Bad Guy Badass gets emasculated and kicked around for a while.  But he can't do straight-up Tough Guy without it feeling flat.

I think you guys were right and Ward really was evil all along.  But Garret is just a decoy for the real Clairvoyant, and Raina is probably the one that will reveal it.

--Dave

Nobody can write straight up tough guy with no other personality traits. The problem with early Ward, or with Riley was that they had no character traits to write for.

[jgsugden]

...Nobody can write straight up tough guy with no other personality traits. The problem with early Ward, or with Riley was that they had no character traits to write for.

There is a lot of character set up for Ward.  There is some stuff that was just the persona he put on, but there is also the whole thing with the well - which takes on a different meaning in retrospect.

[Ghambit]

Maybe Garrett is one of Ward's brothers; maybe the older abusive one (and what Ward actually owes Garrett is vengeful).  I thought initially Garrett would be the younger one that got thrown down a well, but he's too old for that.

[jgsugden]

They reveal that Ward was the one at the top of the well at the end of that episode. It is still interesting to me that he reflected on that moment.

[HaemishM]

I actually thought the actor playing Ward really showed some acting chops in this episode. In the conversation with Raina and Skye, the way he shifts from Sith Ward to boring early show Ward was a nice flick of the switch type of acting change. I like him more now.

Skye still sucks.

[Ghambit]

They reveal that Ward was the one at the top of the well at the end of that episode. It is still interesting to me that he reflected on that moment.

There were two brothers.  One threw the little one down the well whilst Ward stood and watched, no?  I bet Garrett is one of em.

[jgsugden]

They reveal that Ward was the one at the top of the well at the end of that episode. It is still interesting to me that he reflected on that moment.

There were two brothers.  One threw the little one down the well whilst Ward stood and watched, no?  I bet Garrett is one of em.

Brain fart on my end - I thoiught you were saying Wardf was in the well, not Garrett.  My bad.

[Threash]

So Skye's name is Mary Sue, that's fucking hilarious.

[Ironwood]

Seriously ?

[RhyssaFireheart]

Well, that's supposedly the name she was given at the orphanage, she said.  I heard her say it but didn't make the connection until Threash posted in there.  That's too laughable.

And I'm rather enjoying evil!Grant, he's much more "likeable" as a bad guy.  I wonder how Skye left a message for the rest of the team, now that she's figured out Grant is HYDRA.

Also, a friend posted this the other day in her FB feed -

[Threash]

  I wonder how Skye left a message for the rest of the team, now that she's figured out Grant is HYDRA.

That's fucking awesome.

[Raguel]

And I'm rather enjoying evil!Grant, he's much more "likeable" as a bad guy. 

EvilGrant is best Grant.

This show is finally becoming the one I wanted from the beginning.  I'm even starting to like Skye.

[Nevermore]

We're seeing more of those obscure, C-List super powered folks some people have been wanting to see from the beginning.  Even that off-hand comment in the previous episode about Johnny Horton turns out to be referring to an actual character.

[Raguel]

I never really got that demand. What I wanted was SHIELD, and to me that means fighting groups like HYDRA and AIM.

[HaemishM]

We're seeing more of those obscure, C-List super powered folks some people have been wanting to see from the beginning.  Even that off-hand comment in the previous episode about Johnny Horton turns out to be referring to an actual character.

I thought I noticed something about the guy with the lion's head as the Griffin.

And yes, Evil Grant is definitely a lot more interesting. Skye still bothers the shit out of me, but the Mary Sue nickname was a good little bit of self-deprecating humor by the writers. They are getting better. Also glad to see them bring in an actual Marvel super-villain (the darkforce guy in this one is actually Blackout from the comics) even if he didn't have a costume. I want more costumes.

[jgsugden]

For those that do not get the reference: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

I think costumes are on the way in the next 18 months.  Cap II ends S.H.I.E.L.D. as the protector of the people - leaving the job in the hands of vigilantes and heroes.  Before that truly takes shape, I think that the next season of S.H.I.E.L.D. will show the world falling into chaos.  I think Avengers II will end with the Avengers being an authorized peace keeping force, filling the void.  People will start using (less flamboyant) costumes to hide their identies and become vigilantes to assist, which would roll into the Netflix shows.

[RhyssaFireheart]

I'm fine with no costumes though.  I mean, think about it, the idea of costumes is more than a bit silly, especially if you're thinking of them in the comics way, because who the hell is going to run around wearing spandex in public?  That's why I like uniforms instead, similar to how they've been done in the X-Men movies.  You don't think twice about a police officer or a deliveryman in their uniform.  It's something that you notice but tend to disregard because it's "normal" to you.  And a lot of the official costumes that heroes and villains have tend to make you wonder what drugs the artist was doing at the time.

[RhyssaFireheart]

For those that do not get the reference: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

I think costumes are on the way in the next 18 months.  Cap II ends S.H.I.E.L.D. as the protector of the people - leaving the job in the hands of vigilantes and heroes.  Before that truly takes shape, I think that the next season of S.H.I.E.L.D. will show the world falling into chaos.  I think Avengers II will end with the Avengers being an authorized peace keeping force, filling the void.  People will start using (less flamboyant) costumes to hide their identies and become vigilantes to assist, which would roll into the Netflix shows.

Don't TVTropes links require and automatic warning?  Even if they're open links? ;)

My reply was to Haemish but it works for this post too. 

[jgsugden]

...  And a lot of the official costumes that heroes and villains have tend to make you wonder what drugs the artist was doing at the time.

Considering the percentage of characters designed in the 70s, the answer is usually LSD/pot mix.