Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[Fordel]

He's the strongest one there is!

[jgsugden]

Yep.  I like the show mostly, but no supers and I'm bailing.  Ain't got time for a show in the MCU that don't have no cape wearin' fellas.

So, if Gilligan told you that Breaking Bad was set in the MCU, but just didn't happen to run across any heroes or villians during the 1 year run of the show, you'd have bailed?

Kind of a ridiculous way to make my point, but the point needs to be made: There are good tales to tell that do not require the core of the comic world to be present.  I'm looking forward to seeing if/how they address Wakanda, the Savage Lands, an Inhuman Moon base, etc.. and to the slow introduction of some of the heroes and villians of the MCU, but I'm not going to be sad if they have a good story that slows things down and barely touches on anything superhuman.  If all you need its the powers, there is an Avengers cartoon on Sunday mornings.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Breaking bad is a terrible example since they did everything right from episode one, comparing this show to breaking bad only makes this one look worse.

  I'm looking forward to seeing if/how they address Wakanda, the Savage Lands, an Inhuman Moon base, etc.. and to the slow introduction of some of the heroes and villians of the MCU,

Everything you say gets more hilarious.  Look, what you want in a show and what I want are probably not two different things but this is not the show that is going to deliver them.  Expect marvel movie canon and jack shit else.

[Evildrider]

I really doubt there is going to be a super on the team at all.  Although SHIELD has had supers as members, they have always been about being the normal human response to supervillains. 

[Ghambit]

I really doubt there is going to be a super on the team at all.  Although SHIELD has had supers as members, they have always been about being the normal human response to supervillains. 

Actually, wasn't angsty black guy they almost killed in epi. 1 supposed to end up on the team?  I was surprised not to see him in epi. 2, since he was pretty much the highlight of epi. 1.  At the very least they'd use him like Omega Supreme and just call him in when the fit really hits the shan I guess.

So far though, Alphas is/was a better supers show.  That's pretty telling.

[Evildrider]

I wouldn't call this a supers show.  It's more like a men in black show that deals with the unexplained in a world with supers in it.

Also I'm pretty sure they cured the super from the first show of Extremis.

[Typhon]

I think Skye is a (possibly unbeknownst to herself) super.

[Evildrider]

I think Skye is a (possibly unbeknownst to herself) super.

Possibly, probably a low level mutant with some kind of computer related ability.  Kind of like Cypher from the New Mutants.

[Wasted]

The pilot wasn't too bad for a start but the second episode was awful.

[jgsugden]

just a few points:

Nobody is a mutant - they don't have the rights to call anything a mutant in this show due to the deal for the X-movies.  That is why Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver will not be called mutants in Avengers II.  According to some stories, they've now accepted they can't have mutants in this world and are introducing something into the comic cannon this year that will work into the movie universe during phase III and give them an alternative to mutants that they will have the rights to use and fits perfectly with what they're establishing in GotG - and it all relates to the Inhumans.

One member of the team is a super of sorts.  This isn't confirmed... but come on.  This is a show about being human in a world of superhumans - what is more Whedon than to have someone dealing with being a superhuman? 

And, the team is made of up people as super as Iron Man, Black Widow and Hawkeye.  They've had plenty of comics with people less extraordinary than this team.

Wakanda will be addressed in the show at some point as they've prepped Black Panther as a movie and already introduced Vibranium.  I believe we'll see the team in space, on the moon, in the Savage Lands and possibly even in other dimensions over the next few years.

[Khaldun]

The Black Panther stuff is at best tenuous--they haven't even confirmed a desire to make the film at the same level as they have Dr. Strange.

But I'm sure they'll do MU settings. To do some of them right is going to require less cheapness by a huge margin.

It's perfectly possible to do a show about the backdrop of a comic-book world. But to do that takes more energy and imagination by many magnitudes of difference from what we've seen so far in this show. I really think the series bible needs to direct more towards something like Damage Control or Slott's "superhuman law firm", basically a humor-slanted take on the real-world things that would happen as the world became slightly more and more unreal.

If you think about how the history of the Film-MU looks, it's something like:

1.Captain America and the Red Skull are created by "superscience" during WWII; the Red Skull also gets a hold of an Asgardian artifact of immense power and nearly destroys most of the Allies' cities.

Upshot: at this point, the world's governments would now be aware that it is possible to create a superpowered human being; they would also be aware that there are extraterrestrials and/or extradimensional beings with immensely powerful technology. STORY POSSIBILITIES FOR TV-MU: Endless. A whole alternate history of the Cold War that surely includes the founding of Film-MU SHIELD. (Comic-book SHIELD was founded more as a counter to HYDRA and AIM, other organizations with advanced technology; Film-MU SHIELD is clearly a defensive reaction to the reality of superpowers and extraterrestrial tech.) 

2. The US and other countries begin secret efforts to acquire extraterrestrial tech and to duplicate the super-soldier formula. This eventually results in the creation of the Hulk. STORY POSSIBILITIES FOR TV-MU: Endless. Tracking down experiments that went wrong, rogue scientists, strange locations.

3. Tony Stark is captured in Afghanistan, makes the Iron Man armor, goes public and creates the idea of a "superhero". STORY POSSIBILITIES for TV-MU: Endless. You can reference this event again and again. Basement inventors would suddenly be trying to make their own armor, etc.  You could mix in things from our real world, like the Boy Scout who tried to make a fission reactor in his dad's greenhouse, etc.

4. Thor's hammer comes to Earth. Thor comes to get his hammer, the Destroyer appears, there's a publically known battle, SHIELD and the world gain information about where these technologies come from. SHIELD recovers Captain America and the Tesseract. STORY POSSIBILITIES: Not quite endless but they can still go over this ground a few times. Maybe a teeny sliver of the Destroyer got blasted off during the battle and some dude in the town has it. Maybe we start a cold open with Coulson trying to convince a professor to give a negative peer review to an article by Jane Foster. Etc.

5. The "Battle of New York". STORY POSSIBILITIES: A lot but this is the least interesting territory for the show to work unless it wants to look at how life has changed in the world as a whole now that aliens, superheroes, etc. are a known part of our daily lives.

[Ghambit]

None of your thematic tropes matter when the characters and writing are shite.

[HaemishM]

Kind of a ridiculous way to make my point, but the point needs to be made: There are good tales to tell that do not require the core of the comic world to be present. 

You were right, that was a thoroughly ridiculous way to make your point. As has been said, Breaking Bad didn't have one bad episode in five fucking seasons. In two episodes this has had one decent episode and one pretty bad episode.

Also, if the point is to tell about secret agents finding weird shit, why put it in the Marvel Universe at all - other than the cross promotional opportunities with the successful movies. I'm not watching this show for "secret agents finding strange shit," I'm watching it for "SHIELD agents find strange shit in the Marvel Universe which has eleventy billion cool-ass superheroes and super villains to call on as story material." Not using supers in this show is a huge waste. Not doing it in any episode in the first season is a huge mistake. It needs to bleed Marvel and expand the universe in ways that can't be done in the movies or in ways that lead to new movies - things like cameos by Reed Richards, the introduction of hints towards Ultron, as well as adding some interesting characters from the MU like Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Daredevil, etc.

As for the mutant thing, I'm sure they'll introduce the Terrigen Mists from Inhumans and call them mutates. But they better do it quick before I lose interest.

[Tmon]

Something that has kind of nibbling away at the back of my mind is what exactly was so bad ass about that laser thing?  I mean all we saw it do was blow a modest hole in a plane.  Yet they acted like they were carrying around (when they didn't just kind of throw it in a bag and chuck it in a truck) something that could destroy the world.  Then they launched it into space.   If nothing else you'd think that an organization whose job was to protect the world would want to keep a super weapon handy in case something really big and nasty showed up.   

[Merusk]

Wasn't it a HYDRA weapon from Captain America?  Yeah it blows only modest-sized holes in things but those things are "ANYTHING"  It's a ranged lightsaber.

[jgsugden]

RE: the device:  When fired, it was a laser.  However, it was implied that if it overloaded, it might go up like a nuclear bomb.  If there were another tech out there that could be as devastating as a nuke, I think it would make sense to contain knowledge of it.

RE: The Marvel Universe - Think of this as one of the many Marvel universes.  The Ultimate Universe and the core Marvel universe are very different.  So is this universe.  You're in the very early stages of this universe.  Go back and read the first few comics set in the Ultimate Universe.  It took a while for them to re-introduce the mainstream characters in that universe, and it will take time to get to all of those.

If you're only going to enjoy this show if there is core mainstream Marvel Universe shoved down your throat in every episode, I can save you some time.  They've said you will not get that experience from this show.  You're not going to see the team battle Klaw in episode 3, the Ghost in episode 4, the Crimson Dynamo in episode 5, etc...  Go watch the Sunday morning cartoons for that experience.  To me, this show is Buffy + Alias + Man from Uncle in the MCU.  Not S.H.I.E.L.D. comics brought to life.  With that expectation, I'm happy.

[Margalis]

To me the problem is that this isn't a legit drama in the sense that it's not actually dramatic, but it's also not a good fluffy superhero show because there are no superheroes.

I don't think the Marvel movies are good dramas - they are fun action movies where the characters, story and dialogue support the action. They work on that level, but if you removed the action and spectacle they'd be pretty lame. I mean, what the fuck is the actual plot of The Avengers?

This show seems to follow that same formula while missing the key ingredient. 2 dimensional characters quipping back and forth works in an awesome $20 million set piece when those characters are Iron Man and Thor, I'm not sure it works if it's two shield flunkies fighting an angry black dude.

I agree that something like Damage Control would make a good series because it's a different angle and smaller scope that makes sense, rather than just the same formula on a budget that doesn't work with the formula. Or if you're going to make a show about humans living and fighting among super-humans really make it about that - what happens when you it takes your maximum effort to stop a dude like Stilt-Man then an actually powerful guy shows up?

It's hard to think about what the one-line summary of this show is. "Human field agents fight other humans while making references to Marvel movie stuff." Given that it doesn't have the budget to be a popcorn superhero show it really needs to be about something - an interesting story arc, characters, real drama, etc.

[Raguel]

You guys ever read Planetary, specifically the introduction of John Stone? That's what this show should be imo.

[Khaldun]

Planetary would be a great model for this show.

Leverage the intellectual property or go home, that's all. That doesn't have to mean an endless procession of cheesy Marvel guys in leotards. But just being a bunch of hand-me-down Men From UNCLE with a bit of Whedon dialogue and the visual look of a Disney Channel show is a waste of the opportunity. It's not even a particularly good bit of convergent-culture marketing on Marvel/Disney's part.

[murdoc]

If this didn't have Marvel in the title, no one would be talking about it and it wouldn't last past this season.

[jgsugden]

Patient: Doctor, doctor... I have a problem!  Everybody seems to love X show, but every time I turn it on TV all I see is %#$@ that is painful to watch.  What should I do?
Doctor: Stop watching?

Alias.  S.H.I.E.L.D., ignoring the Marvel side of things, has a lot in common with Alias.  Theoretically hot chick with amazing skills?  Check.  Espionage?  Check.  Secret organizations?  Check.  Super sciene?  Check.  Famous showrunner?  Check-ish (Alias was putting JJ on the map).  Dialogue a perceived strength?  Check.  I think this show is on par with Alias.  I think Alias had the stronger pilot (which was perhaps the strongest episode of the series), MAoS (so far) is easily on par, if not clearly better, than most Alias episodes.  Alias went 5 seasons.

[Riggswolfe]

Since this is a Whedon show my expectations are somewhat balanced. The only Whedon show I ever felt was strong out of the gate was Firefly. Angel had some good early work but was uneven. Buffy? The entire first season is only ok. Dollhouse? The first season sucked horribly.

I'm not at all surprised we're seeing growing pains with this show. It has potential but it hasn't reached it yet IMO. This being a Marvel show is both a blessing and a curse. I think ABC/Disney will give it a good shot unless it tanks horribly but it also has high expectations. Before Whedon only had to deal with expectations from his core fanbase, now, the fact that the Avengers was so successful is actually working against him. We'll see how this show pans out.

[MediumHigh]

Anyone expecting this to mine the marvel universe is riding the short bus.

[Hayduke]

The spin in this thread is pretty fucking amazing.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The spin is really only coming from one guy, he's just very enthusiastic about it.

[jgsugden]

No, the spindown is coming from a lot of people... the truth is coming from one guy. It is amazing how often people get that type of thing mixed up.

[Tannhauser]

jg, you gotta pace yourself man. 

[Surlyboi]

We gotta ditch the fish tank.

I liked it. Is it uneven? Fuck yeah it is. It's still watchable at this point though.

[Simond]

No, the spindown is coming from a lot of people... the truth is coming from one guy. It is amazing how often people get that type of thing mixed up.

Hipsters gotta, um...hip?

[jgsugden]

Well, at least you're all finally seeing that I'm entirely right. 

(Not much else to say that hasn't already been said until we've seen a few more episodes.  I'm looking forward to them.)

[Mattemeo]

Two episodes in, and I'm not going to read the rest of the thread first or risk colouring my opinion...

It's a desperate, painful attempt to capture the feel (and audience) of 'new' Dr Who, but with all the charming ugly scrubbed off and homogenised to fuck to suit the offensively bland taste of prime-time non-cable America.
Two episodes, enough time to be a decent length movie - and I can't remember anyone's name except Coulson's. If I leave the cinema after watching a movie for 90 minutes and can neither remember anyone's name nor give half a flying fuck what happens to any of them, that movie has failed.

Ok, so AoS has a longer game plan, it's a TV show, we have more time to delve into the characters... but I don't want to. I've watched Captain Bland, Laughably inappropriate Hacktivist Girl who lives in a van but has PERFECT FUCKING HAIR, the two Comedy British Moppets plus Batteries Not Included and Asian Lady with chip on her shoulder less subtle than the Las Vegas Strip, and I feel... nothing. I don't think that's going to change.

I wanted to like this. But it's off to a really, really shakey start. I hesitate to call it dreadful so early on, but I'm seriously wondering if I should invest any more time on it.

[Ironwood]

Haven't seen any of this yet, but from reading here I don't think it's our cup of tea, or particular written with us in mind.

Fair enough.

[Mattemeo]

Considering you're far harsher toward recent Dr Who than me (and to be fair even I have to relent that the last season was almost totally utter balls), I cannot imagine you'd make it through the first episode.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Two episodes in, and I'm not going to read the rest of the thread first or risk colouring my opinion...

 

[Numtini]

$100 says that Vette does a Heavy Metal Soft Landing by the end of the first season.