Helm's Deeper, Faster, Harder, More.

[luckton]

Has there been anything posted recently revealing these new "class trees"?  Everything I'm finding is all dated from back in March.

[Tannhauser]

I've never been a fan of the skills with very high cooldowns, but I'm hoping they don't dumb it down too much with twenty.  Does anyone know if you can start a new toon in Rohan?  I heard something about being able to go there at level 10.  Hope so.  Love the game, but it's oooollllddd.

[Stormwaltz]

Does anyone know if you can start a new toon in Rohan?  I heard something about being able to go there at level 10.

I think you might be half-remembering one of the Helm's Deep things, where you can get into the HD instances starting from level 10 and get auto-levelled up to 95.

I don't know of any way to start a character except in the traditional way, though one of the expansions (RoI?) gave everyone a rock that would improve their XP gain until they reached the level of that expansion.

[Tannhauser]

OK thanks.  Not going to start a new toon, but might log on to see the skill revamp.  Highest guy I have is a 83 mini.

[Stormwaltz]

At 83 the opening areas of Rohan will con green to you, with occasionally light blues.

[Nyght]

Screenies on a German site:

http://www.hdr-seite.de/witn/screenshots.html?go=gallery&catid=23&page=3

General comments:

It looks to be greener and have a more varied terrain then RoR.

There is a screenie of the talent tree.. leaves many questions about the class revamp unanswered of course.

[Stormwaltz]

There is a screenie of the talent tree.. leaves many questions about the class revamp unanswered of course.

It gives the generalist Lore-Master even more to worry about, since many of our current skills/traits appear MIA, and unlocking all the icons I do recognize requires going halfway down all three trees.

"Specialization is for insects."
- Robert Heinlein

[Ingmar]

It's pretty likely that the talents mostly don't unlock the actual powers, just enhancements to them, like in other games. If they do it like WoW, SWTOR, etc., there will be a couple powers gated behind talents, but not what it sounds like you're imagining.

[Stormwaltz]

It's pretty likely that the talents mostly don't unlock the actual powers, just enhancements to them, like in other games.

They've said on their forums that their intent is to get all classes down to around 20 skills (not including auxiliary stuff like travel abilities). As an LM, I think I have around twice that many now (I'd have to log in to be sure).

[Ingmar]

Yeah, that was my understanding, but what I mean is you're probably not going to have to put 20 points in each line just to get to those 20 powers or whatever; the icons you recognize are probably more likely things like '+5% to this skill' rather than 'ok now you have this skill', other than a couple key ones for each spec, like a capstone ability or whatever. WoW trees, not Diablo 2 trees. Maybe I misunderstood your first post.

[Stormwaltz]

Today Burglars get to learn about how they've been messed with.

Burglar is the only class I couldn't even get to 10 as. Any opinions from someone who plays one?

[luckton]

Today Burglars get to learn about how they've been messed with.

Burglar is the only class I couldn't even get to 10 as. Any opinions from someone who plays one?

It's not as detailed of a report as I'd like.  The summaries sound no different as compared to how you specialize now with traits.  Give me the nitty gritty "these are the exact changes you're getting and the talent trees to go with them" if you want a better answer.

[Tannhauser]

Honestly, the description sounded like how I played my Quiet Knife anyway.  Not enough detail.  Helm's Deep looks pretty good.

[Stormwaltz]

They now have a preorder page up.

I don't think I'd recommend it until you know how the class changes will affect you and decide you're okay with it.

[Ingmar]

The class changes are affecting us regardless, right? Makes it easy to wait and see I guess.

[Stormwaltz]

The class changes are affecting us regardless, right?

Yep. But I wouldn't "vote with wallet" until you're sure what you're getting. Could be Kang, could be Kodos.

[Nyght]

Given that the pre-orders are implied to be available right up to release day, I see no need to rush, although I will likely pre-order for the expansion in any case. The pre-order goodies don't seem like much special to me.

[Ingmar]

Can you pre-order with points? If so I'm already playing with house money (lifetime sub) so I'll do it for the bonuses, otherwise meh.

[Nyght]

Can you pre-order with points? If so I'm already playing with house money (lifetime sub) so I'll do it for the bonuses, otherwise meh.

nope.. real money only

[Stormwaltz]

nope.. real money only

Selling expansions is the only way they can monetize lifers.

[Ingmar]

They do eventually make them available for points, at least sometimes - that's how I bought Rohan. But yeah it seems like the pre-orders are never up for points.

[Nyght]

Yeah, on reflection, I think I will wait and buy it with TP. I realized I am trudging away trying to get a third character to 85 for the expansion. And, not having a ton of fun doing it.

So play something else this fall, then perhaps EQ Next landscape or whatever it is, if it gets released, then finally this expansion for early next year.

That is my current plan, which I am sure will stay in place until sometime tomorrow afternoon. 

[Stormwaltz]

Turbine posts an apologist piece for the massively unpopular class redesigns.

http://www.lotro.com/en/game/articles/developer-diary-trait-trees-helms-deep

[Soln]

Um wat?   Massive role changes are going to alienate the (small) devoted player base they still have.  Are these changes helpful to generalize and make group combat easier?  More approachable for new players?  I'm just wondering what it does for the VIPs.  LotRO is my go to return MMO.  Although I'll never see end game again.

Also, this feels really like radiance all over again.  Apology and all. 

[Stormwaltz]

Also, this feels really like radiance all over again.

Except Radiance only affected raiders. This affects everyone who plays the game - raiders, PvPers, casuals. Radiance came and went without my ever noticing it. This rips the guts out of characters I've been playing for six years and 1300+ hours.

Right now I'm hard-pressed to see any logic beyond the spurious NGE (Godwined!) logic of, "it doesn't matter if we lose a few grumbly old subscribers, because the game will become more accessible and attractive to a fresh crowd of free-to-players."

[rattran]

Are there even any devs left from before the WB takeover or the FTP transition?

[Soln]

Wow, you and I share a mind.  I was also totally thinking of NGE, but thought it was too much to add.  Sad we're both there. 

With radiance, it felt more like a deep and stupid decision that echoed through a lot of the game, not just raiders.  This feels the same, inasmuch as they are at least starting with an apology before they level a stupid mechanic (or series of changes) on everyone.

[Ingmar]

I'm pretty much the opposite of alienated by this, the ability bloat is maybe my least favorite aspect of the game behind legendaries. On the other hand, I play a champ, so my bloat issues are probably more legitimately bloat than people who play loremasters or whatever.

[Modern Angel]

I'm pretty much the opposite of alienated by this, the ability bloat is maybe my least favorite aspect of the game behind legendaries. On the other hand, I play a champ, so my bloat issues are probably more legitimately bloat than people who play loremasters or whatever.

Same, though I mainly played a Warden, so bloat wasn't really an issue. I'd log onto my hunter or champ and ho boy.

[Stormwaltz]

The reason I've played Lore-masters and not much else for the last six years is that it's a generalist class, able to handle a wide variety of situations. They're effectively taking away 66% of my bread & butter skills and traits, and lecturing me about how they're doing me a favor by forcing me to turn my generalist into a specialist.

Forcing this change on characters six years old is just freaking boneheaded. It's a mistake others have made before - a mistake TURBINE has made before - and they're offering little justification for a change no one was really asking for. If this had been some new bolt-on system to optionally enhance my character, I wouldn't be upset. But it's not, my LM is (IMO) ruined, and I'm pissed.

[Tannhauser]

The new skills will bring me back, at least briefly, to check them out.  I hated skill bloat myself.  I'd die and then find a skill that would have saved me but I never use it because it's on a one hour cooldown so it's not in my THREE skill bars.  Killing 60 orcs to get a skill that I'll never use so I can 'check the box' is not good design to me.  On the other hand, I'd say my offensive mini is about to become a heal bot.  Downside is that all my friends have moved on so I'll solo poorly.  That will probably shorten my time back in Middle Earth.

I certainly see Storm's objections; the LM class, if skillfully played, is amazing.  But this game is old and bloated beyond belief and they are trying to entice old and new players to try it out.  In my case it will work, but for how long remains to be seen.

[rattran]

Perhaps the ftp revenue bump has gone down, and they're just just to bring in new players for more cash. 'Dance with the one that brung ya' does seem to be a foreign concept to many teams.

That said, Champ bloat and redundant abilities has been an issue forever, stance-dancing is annoying, and anything to fix it would be good.  LMs Minis and Hunters have bloat, but it's kinda needed bloat the way the classes are designed.

[Nyght]

But this game is old and bloated beyond belief and they are trying to entice old and new players to try it out.  In my case it will work, but for how long remains to be seen.

It had the opposite reaction from me. The idea of relearning everything again and the winnie corporate answers as to whether they hold the license beyond spring just turned me off. I will have enough TP as a lifer to buy and try.. may be in late November or December.. but certainly won't be sending any cash their way for a while, if ever.

[Modern Angel]

Well the totality of what they're saying reveals a game that is quite ill, I think. No raids, okay, whatever, but no dungeons. Just... Big Battles. Coupled with the class changes and the way Rohan didn't have instances until three months post-release and I see this game sputtering along poorly until Mordor.

Maybe I'll check the expansion out. I'd like to, but I skipped Rohan, making it a 60 dollar buy in for me.

[Ingmar]

The reason I've played Lore-masters and not much else for the last six years is that it's a generalist class, able to handle a wide variety of situations. They're effectively taking away 66% of my bread & butter skills and traits, and lecturing me about how they're doing me a favor by forcing me to turn my generalist into a specialist.

Forcing this change on characters six years old is just freaking boneheaded. It's a mistake others have made before - a mistake TURBINE has made before - and they're offering little justification for a change no one was really asking for. If this had been some new bolt-on system to optionally enhance my character, I wouldn't be upset. But it's not, my LM is (IMO) ruined, and I'm pissed.

Have they actually shown exactly which abilities are being removed and which are going to be spec-only? Are we talking 'only tank-specced champions get improvements to their defensive abilities via talent points' or 'only tank-specced champions can use defensive abilities at all'? There's a big difference.