Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)

[Margalis]

Shane Black didn't write a good movie, then he didn't direct it well either. I don't think that has much to do with a clashing of styles.

He and his writing partner were on an episode of The Q & A Podcast. (I think that was the podcast) It sounded like they got to do pretty much what they wanted - they just failed. The ideas that they had just weren't good and weren't well-executed.

[jgsugden]

...Now THAT is bullshit.  Black's style had nothing to do with that trainwreck of a script.

I love KKBB.  That is my first example of an underappreciated movie whenever someone talks about them.  

However, the stylistic elements of KKBB do not mesh with the rest of the summer blockbuster that is IM III.  They did not mesh - and Marvel knew it.  There were a lot of interviews prior to the movie discussing how Marvel guided him.... read between the lines and you get a pretty clear story.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/apr/19/shane-black-iron-man-3
http://www.movieweb.com/news/exclusive-shane-black-and-kevin-feige-talk-iron-man-3

Bonus: Dr. Strange has a director - and I like the direction it might go so far.

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/marvels-dr-strange-hires-director-scott-derrickson-exclusive-1201173055/#

[Typhon]

I would laugh my ass off if Ben Kingsley's character IS the Mandarin posing as not-Mandarin to get a read on the competition first-hand.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I did not realize Black had a writing credit on IM3 but I still hold that the directing style was not the issue, it was a script that was filled with terrible decisions top to bottom.  It was redeemed only by cool action and RDJ as not being terrible but whose idea was it really, to have an iron man movie where he's never in the suit?  I get that this was about not needing the suit to be iron man but you'd think they could save that for the third act.

[Tannhauser]

I would laugh my ass off if Ben Kingsley's character IS the Mandarin posing as not-Mandarin to get a read on the competition first-hand.

That was my hope as well.  He'd be the LAST person they suspect now.  As for not enough Tony in the suit I agree.  I realize they were saying TS is the superhero, not the suit, but I wanted more IM.

I enjoy IM3, but it just doesn't jell totally. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

And Pepper saving the day with Mary Sue extremis bullshit was beyond dumb.

[SurfD]

I would laugh my ass off if Ben Kingsley's character IS the Mandarin posing as not-Mandarin to get a read on the competition first-hand.

Appearently, if we take the Marvel One Shot minis as MCU cannon, Kingsley's charcter is not the Mandarin, and interestingly enough, Aldrich Killian wasn't either! (regardless of what he claimed in IM 3.)

So we may see an actual Mandarin with special rings yet.

[Ironwood]

Bloodworth day again.

[Ironwood]

I did not realize Black had a writing credit on IM3 but I still hold that the directing style was not the issue, it was a script that was filled with terrible decisions top to bottom.  It was redeemed only by cool action and RDJ as not being terrible but whose idea was it really, to have an iron man movie where he's never in the suit?  I get that this was about not needing the suit to be iron man but you'd think they could save that for the third act.

And the suits were utter bullshit too.  65 really cool suits, all of which appeared at the end and pretty much did fuck all except explode.  The coolest suit fell into bits at every point throughout the film and frankly the telekinetic BULLSHIT may have looked good, but was actually fucking retarded.

Also, The Silver Centurion (my favourite suit EVER) wasn't really silver enough, didn't look as cool as it should have and Killian tore it into fucking bits the minute it was on the screen.

GAH THIS MOVIE MAKES ME ANGRY.

And what the FUCK was up with the Cisco Internet Van Scene.  What the almighty FUCK.  Ok, Mexican Scott Baio line was funny, but JESUS WEPT.

[Father mike]

It was a massive product placement that they didn't have the decency to even thinly lamp-shade.

just like the "Oracle Grid" in IM2.

[Ironwood]

Refresh my memory, what was the Oracle Grid again ?

[Father mike]

It was nothing!   

Originally, Oracle had a huge product placement that consisted of every time Jarvis looked up something or did something cool, there would be a line of dialog about "accessing the Oracle Grid", or "Need more computational power -- to the Oracle grid!"  Needless to say, this got incredibly grating very rapidly, so they cut a lot of it out (down to one reference, maybe when Stark was modeling the atoms from the map?) and had the final fight in the Oracle-branded bioshphere.

There was a reference to it in IM3 when Stark was looking at the map for the suspicious explosions, "Jarvis, access the Oracle grid" or some such.   It's not a thing you would notice unless you play product placements Bingo.

[jgsugden]

I think most of us get it, now, but here is the breakdown of the Mandarin twist after factoring in everything we know:

Killian's Extremis experiments were making people blow up.  Realizing that these explosions were going to draw attention, he came up the idea of covering it up with a fake terrorist.  He had some people do some research and hired an actor to play the role of his terrorist.  His researchers based the terrorist character on various rumors and stereotypes - primarily on the vague rumors of the Mandarin.  They give the actor some surgery and tats, and have him claim responsibility for all the explosions.  Iron Man busts it up, Killian is killed, and the actor goes to jail.  The real Mandarin decides that he has some nefarious use for the actor that pretended to be him and busts him out.  Now we get to see if they pick up on the thread they've dangled ... and unless it is in MAoS, it doesn't seem to be something that will happen soon.

[Ironwood]

Here is the breakdown factoring in everything we know.

Writers and directors went wildly off message with their own personal brand of bullshit.  The head heidyins at Marvel thought 'wait a fucking minute, we okayed this, but it's actually all bullshit and we might actually wanna use Mandarin at some point because what the fuck else we going to do with Iron Man, bring Blacklash back ??'   So they ginned up another wee short full of their own bullshit and fed it to fucking morons.

[SurfD]

Eh, I wouldnt be that harsh.

I mean, the Ten Rings were an established terrorist group, mentioned by name, in IM 1.  It isn't too hard of a stretch to accept that Killian latched on to them as a cover front for his own shit.   It would be much like some shady group in America creating their own Fake taliban network an using it to cover up things they were doing.

[Ironwood]

My point being 'stretching' shouldn't even be at fucking issue here.

In everything else there's been a plan and a long game.

They dropped the ball here, don't try to cover it.

[Velorath]

My point being 'stretching' shouldn't even be at fucking issue here.

In everything else there's been a plan and a long game.

They dropped the ball here, don't try to cover it.

The plan was "we've been setting up the Mandarin, but the box office numbers in China are rapidly growing and if our villain is a raging racial caricature they won't let us release there". In that respect they didn't drop the ball regardless of what some of us comic fans think. The focus they put on the Chinese market for IM3 (touting that they had made a special version with added scenes for China) got them $121 million compared to the combined $23 million the first two movies made in China. Mentioning in the One Shot that there is an actual Mandarin is just throwing comic fans a bone and I'd be very surprised to ever see him show up in the movies (unless they once again drastically change him).

[Ironwood]

I'm not a comic fan, really.

But that's an interesting take on it though.  Hadn't considered that. 

[eldaec]

At the time of im1 I'm fairly sure there was a hope, not a plan.

10 rings in the first film was likely just part of the nerd reference sprinkling all these films get after the actual story is locked in.

IM3 is just a bad film with some funny bits. It happens.

[jgsugden]

Dude.  The presence of a real Mandarin is laid out in IM III, but it isn't a single line of text.  You have to put the facts together... and everything Velorath said is true as well. 

Lack of faith is common, but in this case, it is not deserved.  The plan was always to have this be a fake Mandarin while a real Mandarin lurked in the background. 

[Typhon]

My problems are simpler - when Sir Ben is playing the Mandarin he does a really good job of it (in the short time we see that).  Who are they going to get to be a better Mandarin then Sir Ben?

[Ironwood]

 

[Teleku]

At the time of im1 I'm fairly sure there was a hope, not a plan.

10 rings in the first film was likely just part of the nerd reference sprinkling all these films get after the actual story is locked in.

I went to the Marvel movie panel at Comicon in....2005 or 2006, can't remember exactly.  Anyways, the big announcement that Jon Favreau made on stage was that the Mandarin was going to be the villain in the film.  Though I guess that didn't work out.   

[jgsugden]

...I went to the Marvel movie panel at Comicon in....2005 or 2006, can't remember exactly.  Anyways, the big announcement that Jon Favreau made on stage was that the Mandarin was going to be the villain in the film.  Though I guess that didn't work out.   

That is also confirmed in some of the special features.  Mandarin was planned to be the original baddie, but Favreau was uncomfortable with the traditional characterization of the Mandarin, and backed off.  He replaced the Mandarin with Obadiah Stane as the major villain, but kept the 10 Rings organization in the film to set up the Mandarin in a sequel once they knew how to do him.  Mandarin was also discussed for IM II, but Favreau was still uncomfortable with the idea.  He did, however, also include the 10 Rings organization in IM II - if you look carefully at the neck ink of the guy that hands Vanko the travel documents that get him to Monaco.  I don't recall if it is the novelization or something else, but it is also hinted that the group that Hammer hires to break Vanko out in Monaco is the 10 Rings.

If you dig into the other junk that goes along with the movies - comic book 'preludes' and novel adaptions, there is a lot more Mandarin. 

If you watch IM I, the leader of the 10 Rings cell fondles a ring.  In the novel adaption of IM I, it is spelled out that this is a 'fire ring' that belongs to his (nameless) master. 

There is a comic book 'prelude' to IM III in which War Machine is lured into a 10 rings trap.  They try to steal his armor.  They fail, but they are able to scan it. 

It is all out there. 

[HaemishM]

Mandarin will be an alien, and thus his overtly racist portrayal from the comics won't be racist as all. It'll be speciest... or xenophobic. Or something.

Fuck it. Just bring in Fu Manchu.

[Typhon]

'The Mandarin' is nothing of the sort, he is actually Mongolian and English, not Chinese at all.  Fucking Brits with gaudy rings ruin everything!

[Ironwood]

You leave my ring alone mate.

[eldaec]

At the time of im1 I'm fairly sure there was a hope, not a plan.

10 rings in the first film was likely just part of the nerd reference sprinkling all these films get after the actual story is locked in.

I went to the Marvel movie panel at Comicon in....2005 or 2006, can't remember exactly.  Anyways, the big announcement that Jon Favreau made on stage was that the Mandarin was going to be the villain in the film.  Though I guess that didn't work out.   

Well there you go then, a left over nerd reference from an earlier script rather than pure bone throwing. I'll buy that sooner than some convoluted reference to film Disney were planning to make 20 years later.

[Typhon]

You leave my ring alone mate.

lol, 

[jgsugden]

...I'll buy that sooner than some convoluted reference to film Disney were planning to make 20 years later.

The Marvel movie plan only covers the next 14 years... don't exaggerate. 

I'd be shocked right now if Feige didn't know where the Mandarin will next appear.  I'm betting that he may make his first appearance on S.H.I.E.L.D. next year.  If IM IV is not announced to come before Avengers III, which would be a shock to everyone at this point, I'm betting they use the setup from th movies and one-shots on TV. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

...I'll buy that sooner than some convoluted reference to film Disney were planning to make 20 years later.

The Marvel movie plan only covers the next 14 years... don't exaggerate. 

I'd be shocked right now if Feige didn't know where the Mandarin will next appear.  I'm betting that he may make his first appearance on S.H.I.E.L.D. next year.  If IM IV is not announced to come before Avengers III, which would be a shock to everyone at this point, I'm betting they use the setup from th movies and one-shots on TV. 

I don't dislike you so take this in the spirit in which it's intended but every time your fanboy overcomes your common sense I laugh.

[Ironwood]

Ditto.

Well, kinda.

[jgsugden]

You find it funny when I'm a 'fanboy', I find it hilarious when people hold to their pessimism despite facts that show them to be wrong...  We both enjoy the forums.

[Ironwood]

The giggle hits just keep coming.

The Facts.  Did Schild advertise for someone to take over the WUA role ?

The dude quoted your own 'betting supposition' and you're going on about 'THE FACTS'.

Like a retard.

[jgsugden]

Dude. Don't give me high ground by using retard as an insult. Not cool.

I was referring to the history above in this thread where some people claim there was obviously no plan... and there is evidence of the plan available with 5 seconds of Google search.