Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)

[eldaec]

If you are arguing her power alters quantum wave functions, that would be fine. Except of course that makes her as powerful as God.

But it isn't the same as the power to adjust probabilities. Probability is the likelihood of the value or outcome of a given variable considering the information available to the observer.

If I flip a coin, P(heads) from my point of view might be 50%, when it lands and I cover it, it might be 100% from my point of view, but still 50% from yours. As for the concept of 'true probability' from God's point of view, its neither knowable, nor can we know if it exists. It certainly isn't useful as a concept.

This perspective just seems arbitrary.  I get that you and Margalis don't like the concept, she honestly isn't a favorite of mine.  Saying that probably manipulation doesn't mean anything, or that correlating her power to control of wave functions automatically give her God-like powers doesn't sound like opinion, it sounds like you're saying the power simply won't work.  Which I think is wrong.

Look at wikipedia's definition of, Probability Amplitude.  The wave function is a probably amplitude.  Being able to change a wave function is saying that the person is able to change a probability amplitude.  The square of which is a probability.  I'm saying that what Marvel means by, "she can control probability" is that she has some form of control over wave functions.  Being able to change a wave function is not the same as being able to change the wave function of the entire universe.  It's a matter of extent.  It doesn't immediately make her god like (although some of the comics kind of present her in that way).  That's an order of magnitude less suspension of disbelief than, he got dosed with gamma radiation or bitten by a radio active spider, require (from me).

Perception absolutely is arbitrary.

The distribution of amplitude has all sorts of interesting consequences and can be used to model all sorts of interesting stuff, but it isn't an inherent property of the thing, it is the construct of the limited information you have about a thing.

It is possible (but unhelpful and probably incorrect) to argue that there is a maximum amount of information you can know and assuming our understanding of physics is perfect (again unlikely and impossible to be certain of), and that this should give a best possible wave function. But that is entirely unhelpful for all practical purposes as you can never know that it is what you are looking at.

In case you didn't figure it out, this fundamental misunderstanding about stats is particular bugbear of mine and something stats syllabuses leave till way way too late. It causes massive confusion.

[jgsugden]

GoG just started production, so I'm not sure how that was ever a possibility for an after-credits scene for IM3.

edit: AH! I knew that rumor sounded familiar. It all came from marvel making "space suit" iron man toy, and someone extrapolated that as a possibility. But it was always stupid considering there's always crazy shit that is not in the movie that the toys are licensed on.

http://screenrant.com/iron-man-3-post-credits-scene-cameo/

There are a few things mixed together above, but one aspect was confirmed: Marvel nixed the original after credits piece in IM III and replaced it with the Banner/Stark piece.  According to a quote attributed to Ruffalo:

They were about to wrap the movie and I saw Robert (Downey Jr.) at the Academy Awards and he had this idea. Marvel had had an idea but then they scrapped it.

I believe the change was made when something they anticipated being ready (or close enough that they could fake it) was behind schedule - or that RDJ's contract uncertainty forced the change.  I think, given the Ultron news and the events of IM III, it was Ultron related, although I originally throught it might be GotG related like everyone else seemed to think.

[sickrubik]

That statement to me reads that they liked his more. I really don't see the evidence that it would have been GoG or Ultron after the credits.

[jgsugden]

Agreed... there is no evidence of Ultron or GotG as the original angle... just theories ( for now). I bet we'll eventually get the truth.

[Margalis]

I think Ultron probably works better than Thanos. If you bring in Thanos you probably also have to bring in a bunch of other Marvel cosmic stuff.

[Khaldun]

Plus Thanos in the original Starlin stories that got the character rolling only worked to some extent with Starlin's trademark bombast and pretentiousness--his motivation being that he was in love with Death, who was a "literal" abstract entity who really existed in the MU. That worked in those comics, but I just cannot see that kind of pure comic-book motivation flying in the more grounded cinematic MU. They're doing work now on Thanos to texture his origin more--basically he's a combination of an alienated freak, a science nerd who has a sort of Asperger's, and a guy who has an imaginary friend who might be Death but also might be his imagination. Plus he's got daddy and mommy issues (from having murdered mommy) and he's a demigod. It helps to make him a bit more grounded but if anything he's a more queasy mix of rather shopworn everyday psychological tropes and cosmic space handwavium. He might be the kind of character who is best kept way off in the distance for a long while and is menacing through more accessible front-line badguys (Nebula, the Collector).

I can see Ultron working really pretty well. I think if they go on to an Avengers 3, that might be when I'd roll out something like the Masters of Evil just for the sheer craziness of a big mano-a-mano between multiple heroes and multiple bad guys.

[UnSub]

Also, Superman can't possibly fly. The laws of gravity and aerodynamics are against him.

Terrible analogy.

Superman can fly because of magic.

No.

If we're going to have a fucking stupid nerd argument, Superman isn't magic. He's an alien being who processes yellow sun radiation in such a way that it gives him a range of abilities including flight. It's a natural ability he has as a Kryptonian to be Earth's most successful solar panel. Superman is also especially vulnerable to magic.

Arguing about semantics (i.e. "Probability means <this particular definition>") and powers in comics is insane anyway, but honest to god don't write off one set of powers on a character is acceptable BECAUSE COMICS ("I'm willing to accept that magic exists"), then get your panties in a bunch about how Scarlett Witch isn't using the correct technical terms for her ability to bend reality to her will.

[Merusk]

They said magic because there's no way in the laws of physics the guy can fly.

Well, I take that back, there's one way.

Superman flies by emitting the longest most glorious series of farts out his sanctimonious sphincter that the jet of super fast air propells him like a squid through water.

[Ironwood]

Anti-Grav Internal Organ.

[Evildrider]

Supes doesn't fly he just does really long controlled jumps!

[Ironwood]

Well, that is how it started.

[Merusk]

Anti-Grav Internal Organ.

Mine's more eloquent and doesn't involve breaking physics!

Super jump, squeeze a few out.  Dude has super breath, why not super gas?

[Ironwood]

Hey, don't look at me, I don't know how many times I have to repeat this :

I don't like Superman, he's an utterly retarded Superhero.

[Merusk]

No, I get that.  I'm not fond of him either, which is why I find "on the brink of shitting his pants at all times" more satisfying than magic or an anti-gravity mcguffin.

[Typhon]

[snip]

The distribution of amplitude has all sorts of interesting consequences and can be used to model all sorts of interesting stuff, but it isn't an inherent property of the thing, it is the construct of the limited information you have about a thing.

[snip]

There is a group of physicists that are arguing that the wave function IS 'real'  Ars Tech Article

All experiments point to there being no hidden variables, there is only a little uncertainty left possible with our current world view. 
There is a maximum amount of information you can have about a system due to the uncertainty principle (talking about data here). 
We definitely don't know everything there is to know because the Standard Model is incomplete (talking about forces and systems here).

[snip]

Arguing about semantics (i.e. "Probability means <this particular definition>") and powers in comics is insane anyway, but honest to god don't write off one set of powers on a character is acceptable BECAUSE COMICS ("I'm willing to accept that magic exists"), then get your panties in a bunch about how Scarlett Witch isn't using the correct technical terms for her ability to bend reality to her will.

Well said.  Wish I had said that.

[eldaec]

The argument being made there is that the particle may be smeared across multiple positions and literally be in all of then at once.

If that is ever proven, then the the function isn't a probability function at all, even if experimental physicists would be likely to continue to use the term incorrectly.

It would mean the wave function is more analogous to a reality density map.

[MediumHigh]

Superman can fly because of telekinesis. Basically he can fly because he says so. He can also keep the structural integrity of objects because he says so. Also he is functionally immortal since his body can't age because he says so.

[jgsugden]

There are more things in heaven and earth, f13 crowd, Than are dreamt of in your physics.

[Typhon]

The argument being made there is that the particle may be smeared across multiple positions and literally be in all of then at once.

If that is ever proven, then the the function isn't a probability function at all, even if experimental physicists would be likely to continue to use the term incorrectly.

It would mean the wave function is more analogous to a reality density map.

Of course you are right, you just made a phrase to prove it.  "reality density map", not a probability at all... even though it's calculated exactly like a probability, quacks like a probability, and has feathers like a probability.  If you didn't laugh when you typed that, you should chuckle now.

meanwhile, 50 years ago

Stan Lee: I have a great name for a new character in the X-Men universe, The Scarlet Witch!
Jack Kirby:  ... is she a whore?
Stan Lee: (thunderous) NO!  She's a, a, a witch!  She wears red.
Jack Kirby: We're doing magic in mutant land?
Stan Lee: WHAT, hmmm. (fuming, but seeing Jack's point)
Jack Kirby: What's her power?
Stan Lee: You know, she hexes people
Jack Kirby: Gives em warts?  Makes them fall in love with her?
Stan Lee: No dammit, she gives them bad luck.
Jack Kirby: (eyebrows raised)
Stan Lee: Well it's not just people, it's things too!  She's like Murphy, if something can go wrong it will go wrong!
Jack Kirby: So she's Irish?  That makes sense, evilest witch I ever dated was an Irish girl, but boy did she have
Stan Lee: STOP BEING A DICK!
Jack Kirby: (laughing) Ok, ok.  But still, sounds like magic.  Maybe her mutant power is that she can alter luck?
Stan Lee: Yes! Now you're talking... wait, gotta be bigger than that, she can modify probability!
Jack Kirby: I'm getting it.  So if she's in a fight, and the floor is even a little slippery, the villain will slip and fall possibly hitting himself on the noggin?
Stan Lee: EXCELSIOR!

[sickrubik]

I can't think of a single super hero/villain doesn't sound just dumb if we break it down like that.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The punisher?

[sickrubik]

You don't have to break down Punisher for him to be dumb.

[Lakov_Sanite]

A guy with PTSD goes around shooting people he thinks are bad? Eerily realistic.

[MediumHigh]

And everyone loves him for it 

[sickrubik]

A guy with PTSD goes around shooting people he thinks are bad? Eerily realistic.

And we don't hold those dudes up as heroes.

Punisher is a dumb character. I've never seen the appeal.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The former cop in LA who went on a shooting spree against other cops is still held in high regard by many and he was killing "the good guys"  you think someone going around murdering killers wouldn't be famous? Have you seen Dexter?

[Ingmar]

Dexter is also a tremendously unappealing premise, to me.

[sickrubik]

Okay, you sold me, Punisher is THE BEST CHARACTER EVER.

 

The former cop in LA who went on a shooting spree against other cops is still held in high regard by many and he was killing "the good guys"  you think someone going around murdering killers wouldn't be famous? Have you seen Dexter?

Famous does not mean heroic. Dorner was also not a hero. There are people that loved Manson too.

[MediumHigh]

We like the idea of vigilante justice when the targets are people you don't like. In the 80's it was all drug dealers and mob bosses. If the punisher decided to gun down ceo's and shoot up abortion protesters, I'm sure half ya'll drink the koolaid. I think the new 52 superman went all "coporate america is evil, planet busting PUNCH" when he entered metropolis.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Okay, you sold me, Punisher is THE BEST CHARACTER EVER.

 

The former cop in LA who went on a shooting spree against other cops is still held in high regard by many and he was killing "the good guys"  you think someone going around murdering killers wouldn't be famous? Have you seen Dexter?

Famous does not mean heroic. Dorner was also not a hero. There are people that loved Manson too.

Dude, even the most vile murderers are heroes to some.  Just because YOU do not think they are heroic doesn't mean that no one would.  Yes IMO the punisher is not a hero, he is a vigilante at best and at worst a psychotic killer but the character as he was originally conceived is entirely realistic.

[sickrubik]

What is your point? Of course I'm speaking of my own opinion. Christ.

[eldaec]

The argument being made there is that the particle may be smeared across multiple positions and literally be in all of then at once.

If that is ever proven, then the the function isn't a probability function at all, even if experimental physicists would be likely to continue to use the term incorrectly.

It would mean the wave function is more analogous to a reality density map.

Of course you are right, you just made a phrase to prove it.  "reality density map", not a probability at all... even though it's calculated exactly like a probability, quacks like a probability, and has feathers like a probability.  If you didn't laugh when you typed that, you should chuckle now.

But it doesn't act like a probability - that was the point of the article, previously people have argued that it doesn't matter if it is a probability distribution based on observer knowledge or actual superposed states, because it gave the same result in every useful model. Those guys appear to be arguing that it isn't a probability distribution because they found a small thing that maybe gives a definite result.

Which apart from anything else would make the whole thing a lot more elegant.

[K9]

George Zimmerman is probably closer to a real-life version of the Punisher than we'd like to admit. There's a reason society doesn't tolerate vigilantes, everyone has a slightly different idea of who the good and bad guys are.

[Ironwood]

 

[Margalis]

Jack Kirby: I'm getting it.  So if she's in a fight, and the floor is even a little slippery, the villain will slip and fall possibly hitting himself on the noggin?
Stan Lee: EXCELSIOR!

The problem is that a dude comically slipping naturally escalated into "the entire history of the universe is instantly re-written."

There is an art to creating superpowers. Spider-Man has remained almost unchanged since inception. If you look at heroes that have been re-written a lot it's very often because their powers are ill-defined, too restrictive or not restrictive enough, Very often these types of characters work in small doses but fall apart in continuing series.